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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:46 am:   

Howard:

How could Bruce Davis be the Zodiac when -- two days after a clean-shaven, shorthaired Zodiac killed Stine -- Davis was captured with long hair?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:06 am:   

The reason I started this thread is to give those who disagree with Howard's theory a place to dispute it rationally and in a non-confrontational manner.

I'm not flaming Howard. Rather, I'm asking a logical question based on the facts. Lately it's become obvious certain members of this message board have forgotton how to do the same.
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   

I am posting this picture for Howard because he is having problems with his scanner. The message following it is what Howard has to say about the image.

Bruce Davis 10-12-69

This is a photo of Bruce M. Davis (DOB 10-05-43 (This is the same month and day as Z’s bloody cross postcard.)) taken shortly after 10-12-69. Note he is clean-shaven. This is a third generation image. In the original photo his medium length dark brown hair does not look as dense but it appears greasy. (Bryan Hartnell said Zodiac had “dark brown, greasy hair.”) His face is large. (Mike Mageau said Zodiac had a “large face.”) According to some, and as can be seen here, he was “tight lipped with a saturnine expression.”

Go to ZodiacVortex.com and click the “morphing” section that takes each suspects photo and morphs it into the Z composite. Some have said that Davis matches up very close to the Z composite features. Stop the morphing at various intervals to get a good perspective on each suspect image. Ryan, the Webmaster, is to be commended for this innovative idea, regardless of which suspect matches the best.

An LA Times reporter that saw him up close in December 1970 wrote that Bruce Davis was “husky.” (He also had a crew cut.) Others have said the same. Paul Watkins said Davis was “thick set.” Susan Atkins said Davis was “muscular.” Most witnesses indicate that Zodiac appeared “husky” or “heavy set.” Mike Mageau said Zodiac was “young” and was about 5’8” tall, what he called “short.” This was before revisionism set in. Height ranges are from 5’8” to over 6’ and weight to over 200 pounds. No one had a scale or ruler with them to measure with so of course there are variations in the estimates.

Pockmarks can be seen on Davis’ chin and neck in the original photo. These pockmarks are still visible today in close up photos. Watkins said he saw these “eruptions” on his neck and chin in 1969. Some Zodiac witnesses described Zodiac as being clean-shaven. Kathleen Johns said this of her abductor too and also said he had pockmarks on his chin. If she was really abducted by Zodiac she is the only witness to have said this.

Like his friend Charles Manson, it was said Davis was a “man of a thousand faces,” “he was always changing.” He could be clean-shaven, with a beard or sometimes have just a moustache. He could be with long hair, medium length hair or even with a crew cut. He was always changing.

Zodiac claimed that when he killed he wore some form of “descise” and that it consisted of more than one prop. True or not I think this was a good idea since most of the police force was looking for him – even the FBI and police throughout the country.

It is very easy to do a crew cut hairpiece disguise. You grease your hair, flatten it down and put the wig on. Or you can use a latex “scalp cap.” I found one wig store that had sold crew cut hairpieces since 1968. There were others. Tex Watson, a close friend of Davis’, had owned a wig shop on Wilshire Blvd. in LA in the ‘60s. Wigs were found at the Manson hideouts.

A former Family member told us she was “amazed” at how Charlie could change his appearance or “age himself” in minutes with only a simple eyebrow pencil. With just a few lines you can add years to your appearance. Outside at night no one will discern what you have done. Try it. It works. Anti-detection books of the ‘60s and ‘70s showed how to disguise oneself with props like this and also using other simple methods. Put thick, black glasses on and it’s done.

Using simple methods you can alter your appearance taking little money or time to do it. It’s easy and simple. I hope to present some before and after photos of myself in a disguise!

I know such matters, such as Zodiac in a disguise, sound far-fetched or surreal. We have joked about wigs and the like. But he was a wanted man with a price on his head. It is hard for someone who isn’t a criminal to appreciate how important a disguise is. Clothes and padding techniques are another issue. Here we are focused on the face and head.

This is just another Zontroversial area of discussion that will not be settled – unless a perp or star witness is found.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 3:49 am:   

Tom,

What was Bruce Davis "captured" for two days after the Stine murder? Do we know how long he was held and what the charges were? It would be strange indeed if Davis was picked up on the same day as Z mailed his first letter after the Stine murder.

Aside from the hair, I think Davis is certainly passable for Z based on the composite sketch (whatever that is worth). Since I tend to be a skeptic about Z's claim of using "descises", I find the crew cut wig a bit more problematic but certainly not impossible for a guy who ran in the circles that Bruce Davis did. It's a bit hard to tell but he appears to have long sideburns in the photo above, which would certainly be harder to hide with latex.

I have a few more questions for Howard but I'm just going to have to break down and buy the book instead (using the link here, of course...).
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   

Deoxys,
He was arrested at the Ranch (coming from the Las vegas side) at 6pm the following day. I think it was a general bust with several arrested for Grand theft auto among other things.
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:50 pm:   

Deoxys,
Manson, Davis and others were arrested at Barker Ranch in Death Valley at 6:30 PM on October 12, 1969. Davis had returned from Las Vegas, Manson from LA. After being held in Independence, CA (Carvings done by Family members could still be seen on the bathroom stalls of the Independence courthouse when Howard and I were there in 1994.) Davis was released on October 27, 1969 due to lack of evidence.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   

Jim and Howard, thanks for that pic and info. It's about time Howard got his book listed on here---I read it, and it cannot be excused by any serious Z or Manson researcher.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   

barkerC:\mysettings\mydocuments\barker.jpg
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   

Some researchers think it 'very unusual' and that it must 'have been very important' for CM to have left his people when he did on the 10th 'to get supplies,'something he was not accustomed to do.When he returned around 6:00 PM he had no supplies!

CM returned the SAME time as did BD and supposedly from two different cities-LA and LV!

CM had originally left with Bill Vance a hardcore criminal.

As Jim indicated,BD was arrested around 6:30 PM 10/12/69 and later released because of a "lack of evidence"(this legal theme constantly came up over the years-very slippery guy)on October 27th.that same year.
There are some 27th's that pretty much line up as an FYI only:
May 27th CM's uncle whom he hated,was found stabbed to death(CM and BD may be the responsibles acording to some I have contacted-it is unsolved)-pinned to floor!keys taken;June 27th murder(need to find this);July 27th BD tied to a murder;August 27th the same an '87-Z attacks September 27th.October 27th Davis freed.

I obtained all PD reports from LT.Howard Hurlbut and BD was not with his people on the 27th!Before and right after the 27th,but NOT on that date.
I have run into this kind of tight time-line constantly.

Of interest to Jim and I only,it was on 10/27/70, a year later, that Z mailed his Halloween card.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:12 pm:   

It's hard to tell, but does Bruce Davis also have sideburns, or is it just longish hair? I'm not sold on the crew cut wig idea, but even if Davis wore such a thing, long, bushy sideburns (if that's indeed what they are) would be impossible to hide.
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   

Davis' birthdate was 10-05-42 not 43. Sorry, my typo.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 11:34 pm:   

Thank you for the information, guys.

OK... Am I missing something here? Bruce Davis was picked up on the evening of 10/12/69 after returning from LAS VEGAS and incarcerated until 10/27/69. If Davis was Zodiac, how the heck did he manage to mail the Stine letter from San Francisco, which was postmarked the day after(10/13/69) he was arrested??? Even if he had just arrived, he would have had to have killed Stine in San Francisco late on 10/10, driven to Las Vegas and then to Death Valley just in time to be picked up by police on 10/12. It appears to me that this arrest would be an extremely strong alibi for Davis NOT being in San Francisco on a date that a confirmed Zodiac letter was mailed and making it highly unlikely that he was in San Francisco on the day Stine was murdered. What am I missing here?

I suppose you could make a case that an associate or fellow Manson family member helped to mail letters but I'm curious about Howard & Jim's take on this. Sorry, gotta wait for my book to be delivered...

I do wonder about the possibility that LE may have SUSPECTED Manson family involvement in the Z murders and decided to raid the Barker Ranch after Stine's murder, basing the raid on existing charges.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:24 am:   

I think in all fairness, if we are just to compare the major three suspects and are willing to accept the disgusie idea, then Davis fits best.
It sure as hell isn't Allen and I don't believe for a second that anyone is going to look at kazcynski and not comment on the Jaw. Neither do I buy Fouke saying "there was something about the chin, but I couldn't put my finger on it" as being
an indicator to Ted.It would be like someone seeing a Giraffe for the first time and saying, there was something about his neck, but I couldn't say what!
In any case, that's all at face value, pardon the pun.
The disguise idea, it not without problems for reasons already discussed. However there is a second problem on that score. Howard is adamant that Kathleen Johns is a Z victim. Now she sat beside that guy for two hours and it's nigh on impossible to believe he was disguised on that occassion. That means that Davis (if Z)went into elaborate disguise at P.H, took extreme measures to avoid detection also by flying out to Vegas(it's unlikely he drove passed the ranch on the way there) and then a few months later went to a barber shop(or wherever) and modelled himself on an earlier disguise, with a poster of Z in every police station in the state.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   

My lengthy reply post was DELETED!
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   

Howie, not sure how that could happen -- Ed and I are the only two with access to the board and I certainly wouldn't delete your posts.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   

Tom,
It was up!I made sure as this has happened to me before.I don't know how it happened,but it did!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   

As I recall the story in the SF Chronicle in Oct. 69, it talked about nude hippies wandering around the desert, outlook bunkers built above the heights at Barker, and people wanted for destroying a front end loader in the area. There was no mention of Tate or Z.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   

Rats! I look forward to reading that eventually, Howard. I'm sure these are questions that you have considered long before I have.

Forgive me if the questions have been answered before in another thread. I actually view Bruce Davis as a compelling suspect but it does appear that he would have had to be acting as part of a larger conspiracy. For most suspects, the idea of multiple suspects would be laughable but Davis certainly had a "Family history" of conspiratorial murder.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   

Deo,
It takes me such a long time to type up a detailed post(poor tying skills!)so it is discouraging for it to vanish.

I will try again later- I had answered all questions in detail!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   

I didn't delete any of your posts, Howard... I'm always looking forward to them to see what you have to say!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   

Howard, maybe it is a Scott or Doug conspiracy, lol.
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Nick
Username: Nick

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   

Howard, just a tip. For lengthy posts you might want to first type it into Word, WordPad, etc and then just cut and paste the text into your MB post. That way you can just save the document and repost if your orginal disappears for some reason. No need to rethink or retype anything, just cut and paste again. Using a text editor also gives you the benefit of running spell-check, grammar-check, etc prior to posting.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 12:04 pm:   

Nick,
Thanks for tip!

I will focus on one point and then on other areas incrementally in future posts.
The Z letter was posted or according to the post- mark 10/13/69 PM from S.F.

Tom V. holds to a theory or thinks it was possible that Z may have 'prewritten' the letter.FYI

BD was arrested 10/12/69 at around 6:30 PM (the Palo Alto Times got a call from a caller claiming to be Z at 6:30 PM around the 22d of Oct.'69-BD made an AM call around this time from jail,but they don't know who it was to-and the time of the LB door writing FYI)according to reports and he was printed 10/13/69.

He was released for lack of evidence 10/27/69 and a year to the day Z mailed his Halloween card.FYI

Real or not Z boasted he had some kind of 'system' of protection,"the police shall never catch me as I have been too clever for them...I am crack proof."

Examining historical CM methodology we find that letters were mailed FOR both he and BD on a regular basis.We print one example in our book.The communication was to Anthon LaVey as from CM.It was written and mailed BY a trusted CM associate.

The Z letter or even all or part of them could have been mailed by a trusted CM associate as we find them doing this from '69 on.

Sandra Good was tried for using the US mail to threaten others.It was brought out that she had attempted to have a young man mail the letters from S.F. to get a S.F. postmark on them thus giving her an alibi as she was living in SAC at this time!
The same kind of situation could have prevailed as with the 10/13/69 letter.If we accept the statement Z made in this letter,"last night'when recounting the events of 10/11/69,then this short letter which seems to have been written in a hurry was penned on the 12th at some point and was not posted until PM the next day!

With the kind of 'structure' BD was involved in this would give him an alibi plus-if he were involved in the Stine case-that only few criminals could even hope for!If true then Z or anyone could say or at least think,they were somehow 'crack proof.'

What I am saying is that the Z letter/s could have been mailed by an associate/s from SF and there were members there at that time and others travelled there by plane,car,bus,and motorcycle constantly.They would also keep in touch by phone from LA to SF on a regular basis.

May I remind others that think mailing a letter from a place other than where one is residing is somewhat farfetched have to consider that most of the Z suspects would have to have done this!

If Z lived in Vallejo or in this area,he would have to drive to SF to get a SF postmark on several Z letters!
I don't think any Z suspect of any real importance to the body of Zearchers,was living in SF in'69-71.
To be Z he would have to be in SF to get that SF postmark on a letter OR have,like Good was trying to do,someone mail a letter from SF!

Another issue related to postal misdirection I brought out in the past is the possible use of drop boxes which all anti-detection books advocated-and still do.
One mails or gives a letter to a drop box(there was a small fee for this service that was run many times by anti-establishment types wishing to aid others to conceal where they resided for whatever reasons),say,in SF and they, in turn,with no questions asked, drop it in the US mails whenever they determine a daily or spasmotic mail or post time each day both AM/PM.

If Z (this includes all Z suspects not living in SF for each letter drop!)had a drop box in SF then he could have written the letter on the 12th then dropped it into a drop box and they could have posted it on the 13th.
I have researched this a great deal.Criminals and others trying to 'hide' where they live use this form of postal misdirection sometimes with great success.
No one can deny this would be a "clever"method for Z to use.

One last note and as given,CM wrote his parole agent 5/27/69 to say he would be 'travelling and working with a band at this time or the time the letter was written.
CM's uncle-whom he hated- was brutally stabbed to death-he was pinned to the floor!(5/27/69)with the killer/s taking his car keys(Z did this with Stine and if it were Z then Johns too FYI).

Some authorities believed CM was trying to use this letter as a form of 'alibi' to indicate he was away or busy and could not have murdered his uncle.Of interest,BD had returned from a trip around the 15th of May that same year.FYI

More later...
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   

I found that CM left-just after issuing an order to kill this woman!-on 10/8/69 not on the 10th.He,of course, returned on the evening of the 12th.
Sorry,but it was close and not crucial.Actually it lengthens the trip!

"There's not much known about the reasons for this little trip[Oct.8-12 '69],but it had to be important because Manson had been sticking close to his followers."Sanders 2002 ed.

Watkins said that S.F.was the 'key' to CM's route to starting a 'Revolution' and that eventually everything would focus there.
This city(along with LA and eventually SD "all coastal cities"as per Watson were to be terrorized-even kidnappings were planned-CM said that even 'children would have to be killed'-note Z's S.F.letter reference to shooting "kiddies"or children FYI)was slated for being "terrorized"by committing murders,seemingly "random victims,"as CM "hated" the authorities or the "Man"there.

They,along with the city powers that be,in his view,'caused the Hippy and Love Movement to cease and degenerate.'
He said S.F. was the "first place" he ever "experienced true love" and affection and the S.F. police and city fathers ended all of this spirit of community and love,etc.So they had to 'pay' or 'get their karma' sooner or later.

CM first went to S.F.in 1967.

Of course,Z letters were mailed FROM S.F. and Stine was attacked 10/11/69.This was the first time Z went to great lengths to prove he was the killer by actually using small portions of Stine's bloody shirt in some of his letters!

As a note,Z authority Dave Peterson,my 'old' research partner,used to say that witches would send their enemies bloody cloths as warnings of death and havoc to come,etc.CM/BD were into witchcraft nad the dark side of the occult.FYI

The S.F.Chronicle was THE paper Z really focused on too.
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:19 pm:   

Another thing to consider regarding the postmark date of the Stine letter is that this attack occurred late on a Saturday night. Even if the letter was put in a mailbox immediately after the attack it was undoubtedly after the last pick-up of the day. And if it was mailed at any time during the next day this would have been on a Sunday. Mail does not usually get processed or picked-up on a Sunday, especially in the 1960s. And most mailboxes only get picked-up once a day, often times in the afternoon. So the earliest a letter mailed late on a Saturday night could be postmarked would be Monday AM with a 50-50 chance of it being a PM. Given this day-and-a-half window, whoever the Zodiac was could have gone anywhere or done anything.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:12 am:   

Jim,
Good point about the mail drop, a bit further, mail didn't get picked up on Saturdays in 1969, So he could have dropped it Friday night.

Howard,
What is your answer concerning Tom's question concerning hair length?

Bryan
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   

Jim,
Correct and this could explain why it had a 10/13/6 PM postmark.This means that whoever Z was could have mailed that letter(the first with his symbol on the envelope FYI)on Sunday the 12th and left S.F. that same day with the postal system franking it with 10/13/69.

Bryan the g,

I had answered in detail,but that post left this world!So here goes again.it

BD's friend Tex Watson owned a wig shop on Wilshire Bl in SM.Wigs or hair pieces were found at some CM cabins,etc.CM was into using simple methods of disguise.
Diane Lake told us that CM could take an eyebrow pencil and 'age' himself by putting lines at certain places on his face or change his facial expression.She said it was "amazing."
CM learned some of this from being part of the drama club while he was in WA State prison.This was where they did the Mikado while CM was a member according to CM's former counselor.He wrote me and also sent a copy of a get well card(he had crossed out Get Well and used !'s and HA!inside the card.Manson had sent it to him.I have the only Xerox.
I saw a photo of this counselor holding the card up for a news photo when he retired.I got to him before he left the prison!

Anti-detection books recommend wigs or hir pieces if one wanted to disguise themselves for any reason.You simply greased(note how greasy BD's dark brown hair appears-BH says Z had 'dark brown greasy hair'FYI) your hair and matted it down or you could use a latex scull cover.I bought one and hope to do some before and after photos for the site.
They had crew cut wigs in the 60's.I found one store that sold them continuously since 1968 for example.Servicemen who wanted to retain their 'longer' hair style used them as well as for parties and Halloween,etc.

As far as sideburns go the original doesn't show sideburns and it seems Davis for some reason flatten his hair over his forehead and on the sides with some portions curled up.If Davis let his hair grow out it was "wavy"according to Paul Watkins.At least one witness,MM,indicated Z's hair was wavy.
Another thing about sideburns.It was said that by placing some spirit gum on long sideburns and a strip of latex placed over them they could be concealed.
Remember it was night at PH with trees overhead casting shadows.When one isn't looking for a disguise then it's very hard to 'see' disguise props on a person's face.
And,again,using a common eyebrow pencil you can make yourself look older by drawing lines on the forehead and between the eyebrows (see Z composite FYI)and even those crow's feet everyone loves!

Truth or lie,Z did write he used a 'disguise'and seemed to indicate that it 'consisted' of more than one prop.
Afterall,Z was not just a wanted man in the Bay Area,but in the US and even the FBI was looking for him;so a disguise would not be a bad idea since he was out on a public sidewalk in S.F.!
Z did have a price on his head and faced a possible death penality.

I know it's hard for a person who is not a criminal to consider wearing disguises,hairpieces,glasses,etc.,because there is no need to conceal one's identity,but picture wanted posters were everywhere,including,newspapers,TV and magazine stories and the like.

It is known that BD wore his hair long,medium and even in a crew cut.In a college photo his hair was in a crew cut and this was just before he left for CA.His eyes,as the photographer that duplicated the photos said, were 'hard and cold.'

He was wearing his hair in a crew cut when he was arrested in '70.Sometimes he had a beard and other times just a moustache(or both!)or was clean-shaven as you see in the post above.He,like CM,was said to be the 'man with thousand faces'-always changing.

Jim is going to post a photo of CM and BD shackled or cuffed with BD staring with a very hard look at the camera.
KJ said that her attacker had 'cold deadpan eyes.'FYI
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:51 am:   

Howard, I do believe that the best disquise would be a wig for a man.All we have to do is watch the "Hair club for men" to see just how different they look. It can be put on and taken off in less than a minute. Glasses do very little to change ones looks I believe,but when you put them both together what a transformation !
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 1:13 pm:   

This is a clip from the 2000 Beverly Wilshire Filmworks DVD "Manson" of Bruce Davis descending a staircase at the Los Angeles County Courthouse during the Shorty Shea murder trial in either late 1971 or 1972. Note Davis' stern facial expression.

Davis courthouse
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 7:42 am:   

Howard/Jim,
The first photo here..quote "taken shortly after 10-12-69".
Is this the actual Mug shot taken at the time of his arrest on that date or is it sometime later.
If the latter can you be more specific please?
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:27 am:   

Sean,
I was told that it was taken around the 13th,but no later than the 27th.BD was printed on the 13th or just after the 10/12/69 evening raid.
There were so many of them it was hard to process everyone as each had as high as 8 or more aliases!
BD and CM had several 'names'each!

This was a jail system that handled only a few people at any given time and then there were all these people which proved to be overwhelming.

Davis was released 10/27/69 because of "insufficient evidence,"as always.

All suspects have problems.Even if all suspects looked like the composite it does not mean that they are Zodiac!
IF Z were telling the truth and he did have a 'disguise' then we are faced with more issues,but NOT if we have solid forensic evidence.

For example,you like Allen.Has he passed all forensic tests,including voice ID?
Well,when we go there some will argue that the prints left behind were not Zodiac's,hence,no opportunity for a match!
The DNA was 'flawed'some assert,so we still have Allen in the running.
The handwriting was no match,so we say he was able to disguise his writing.

I only pick Allen(I have for the most part stayed away from a particular suspect)as he is the most popular suspect thus far,and we can see that many will not accept any kind of 'test'results excluding him as Z.
This is up to each Z suspect advocate.
A "suspect"is as Sandy said,just that-one we 'suspect' MAY be Zodiac.
WHEN forensic evidence rules a person IN then he leaves suspect land!

But some can't accept that there are Z prints,etc.;where do we go?
This is one reason Sean why this case is so unique-and complex!

Thus far,the LE consider it an unsolved case,even though some may have a "suspect"they LIKE.

We are left ,in some case,to snipe(or just inquire,etc.) at suspects we don't like or if they contradict our favorite guy's Z status.
This will continue,but we need to stay focused to contribute -in some way -to case fact as many are doing.

The LE and court system must decide-not us!
In the mean time we will all continue.IF your guy is Zodiac greatttt!I will be thrilled!!!
We ALL want this case solved one way or another.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:29 am:   

Relax H, I'm not sniping at Davis, just trying to gauge how relevant this photo was/is when we compare it to the composite.
I had always assumed that this was the mug shot taken upon his arrest on the 12th. The later it gets the longer the hair gets and most likely any facial hair (sideburns etc) as it's unlikely he was grooming himself while in custody.
Davis,afterall, is closer than most other suspects
when comparing to the composite.

Allen is another thread and if you have any ideas,queries or questions with regard to what I believe or don't believe, I'll be happy to answer.
I think we all need to able to argue the case on any particular suspect based on that suspect. I see no relevance or logic in adopting a position whereby problems with one particular suspect are gauged against problems with another as a means to square the circle,so to speak.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:08 am:   

Incidentally Howard,sorry, can you tell us who your source for this information is? (regarding this photo)
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but the main individual who was taking Howard to task in the public section is nowhere to be found here even though they have an account.

I guess it's easier to make personal attacks against the proponent of a theory rather than attempt to point out flaws and debate in a non-confrontational manner. Disappointing.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:58 am:   

The thing that always bothered me about this suspect, is the zodiac crimes really don't fit into the master plan of the Manson Family. If Bruce Davis was Z, forgive me if I'm wrong, you would draw the conclusion that he performed the z murders by Manson's orders to aid in the family's Master Plan of Helter Skelter. Helter Skelter was a plan to start a race war between black and whites by committing murders and making whites believe that black people commited the murders. I don't see how Zodiac falls into that. The Manson family writtings are all very racist! Z's letters make no mention of race. How would this fit into Manson's plan?
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:33 am:   

Scott_ben:
California was the first state for Helter Skelter to begin. Then it was to go nationwide then worldwide. It is our (Howard's and my) belief that Manson's plan was for Zodiac to instigate the war in racially troublesome areas in the SF Bay area. The Family would take care of SoCal. San Diego was also in Manson's sights. It was hoped that Zodiac's activities would be perceived as a racial thing. But that hope evaporated when that perception didn't occur.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 1:44 am:   

Jim,

Thanks for clarifying that but I guess I'm unclear why Z, if he was seeking to forward the Manson agenda, wasn't more proactive in doing so. In 20 or so letter, he failed to make any mention of anything related to race or Helter Skelter. Even if the 1978 letter is legitimate, it was WAY too late to foster any racial divide.

Aside from the false police report after the Stine shooting, I don't think anyone really suspected Z was anything but lily-white. Z's references to the Mikado and cipher challenges probably did nothing to contradict that belief either.

The idea of Manson & family targeting San Francisco and killing young white couples makes sense. Wouldn't you agree, however, that if Bruce Davis or other family member(s) wrote the Zodiac letters, he/they did a miserable job giving the perception that Zodiac was killing for a racist agenda?
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:04 am:   

That was my point exactly it does not really fit Mansons scheme. I mean z's agenda the collecting slaves for the afterlife and Manson's just don't fit. How was california supposed to be racially motivated by these crimes?
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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   

If you check the activities of both Zodiac and Manson, as is detailed in Howard's book, the "coincidences" between the two "agendas" are remarkable.

Manson also believed that he could promote his plan subliminally and those who were "one" with him would just know what to do. He thought the Beatles were the "Four Prophets" and their music was full of instructions - including directions of how to get to Death Valley where they would hide deep in the earth until the "War" was over.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 5:53 pm:   

Thanks, Jim. It's amazing the control Manson must have had over his followers to make them believe his wacky delusions.

I need to read Howard's book.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:47 pm:   

I also must read the book. I guess I'm making judgements before finding out what I'm judging against. Which of course would be highly unfair to howard. My apologys for that.

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