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Nancydrew
Username: Nancydrew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 3:48 pm:   

i visited the movie's official website and have a question. in rg's first book, he claimed a pair of gloves that were too small to belong to a man were found in stine's cab, and that toschi eventually identified the female owner. several years ago tom published a report made by detective toschi (working with the doj) in 1971 that listed details of the zodiac crimes, including the evidence gathered. the gloves were included in that list and identified as being a men's size 7.

so...either toschi really did find the owner of those gloves more than two years after she left them in the cab, which i find rather farfetched, OR he just went ahead and included the gloves in that 1971 report even though he knew they weren't evidence, which i also find hard to believe.

in any event, the movie website focuses on those gloves quite a bit. (just click on "washington and cherry" to navigate around the cab and you'll see what i mean.)

if they try to claim those were zodiac's gloves, how can they prove it? lots of people accidentally leave things in cabs. stine must have had scores of people in his cab that shift. i guess they can claim the gloves were bloody, so they must be zodiac's. but stine's personal stuff was bloody too, and we know he wasn't the zodiac.

even if it could be proven the gloves were zodiac's, which i doubt can be proven, he did claim he was leaving fake clews, so they could have been left on purpose to throw people off.

i just don't see why a project with a big budget and lots of researchers would decide to make those gloves an issue. i hate to think they are clueless as to what is or is not significant, but short of secretly testing the gloves for dna and finding a match to zodiac, the gloves are a waste of time.

am i missing something?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:15 pm:   

Nancy, Stine didn't have "scores of people in his cab that shift." He clocked in to work at 8:45 pm and he was dead at 9:55 PM. He only had one fare prior to Zodiac.
If the gloves were left by Zodiac they certainly could be a fake clue by puposely leaving a pair of gloves behind that didn't fit his hands to throw off investigators.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   

I don't know the answer to your question, Nancy, but it's good to see new folks objectively looking at the case info. I tend to agree that unless these gloves had evidence of Stine's blood on them, it is questionable evidence to say the least.

I've always said that the movie, however inaccurate, will eventually bring thoughtful people to this site who are intrigued by the case and, once they get here, will realize that it is far less clear-cut and far more intriguing than any Hollywood movie can represent.

Welcome...
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Nancydrew
Username: Nancydrew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:31 pm:   

i suppose black gloves could have been missed from a previous shift. according to the movie site they matched the interior of the cab pretty well.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   

Also remember we're dealing with filmmakers who live in a fantasy world (ha, lots of "investigators" do too, such as the wannabe lawyer who claimed he met Z and that the gloves were fake leather or something, and that the two Chinese boys who witnessed the crime could provide more details. LOL, we get 'em all here).

The point is, movie makers often have some sort of agenda, and the gloves undoubtedly fit it, which is why they're focusing on them. Maybe they were Z's, maybe not, but if so, we need a viable suspect first and, even then, it may be impossible to link them to said suspect anyway.

The gloves don't appear to be particularly relevant in any case; they may have belonged to someone other than Z, but basically, the only reason they're evidence is because they were found at the crime scene. In the end, I wouldn't worry too much about what some Hollyweirdite focuses on in a movie based on two novels written by a discredited political cartoonist.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 5:51 pm:   

Even if the gloves had Stine's blood on them...hell, the inside of the cab was very bloody. I would expect the gloves to have his blood on them, at least a little bit anyway.

I agree the website is well done, especially the 3-D cab.

You're right -- the author did claim the gloves were accounted for. Since the movie is based on his books, you'd think the gloves wouldn't be involved. True I haven't seen the movie, but the gloves are indeed featured on that site. If the movie isn't going to present them as Zodiac evidence, why use them at all?

Maybe the 3D guy just wanted people to be able to navigate into the back seat as a cool effect.
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Nancydrew
Username: Nancydrew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:50 am:   

as i just posted in another thread, the book that the movie is based on has been updated with some rather unspectacular information.

apparently there's a scene in the movie where the detectives search allen's trailer and find size 7 gloves "just like the zodiac wore".

so much for being based on true events.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:32 am:   

I posted 19 days ago on 12-14-2006:

The point is, movie makers often have some sort of agenda, and the gloves undoubtedly fit it, which is why they're focusing on them.

Looks like I was right.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:33 am:   

Look for a Navy motif too, while you're at it.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 7:23 am:   

I'm pretty sure I have the results of that trailer search around here someplace and I don't recall a pair of gloves being recovered.

The 1972 search affidavit for Allen's trailer can be found here and it doesn't even mention the gloves from Stine's cab, so it's hard for me to believe SFPD thought them to be a clue.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   

You would think with todays DNA knowledge, they would have taken the DNA from inside the gloves to make sure they didn't belong to the Z. Wouldn't the DNA still be inside of those gloves ? If SFPD didn't put their hands all over Stines shirt, they could also get Z's prints off of the shirt, using super glue fumes. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:32 pm:   

Excellent points, Sandy. Yes, it seems obvious that the gloves would have DNA still inside of them from the owners oils, sweat, etc. But since almost no mention has ever been made about said "mystery gloves", I don't think they exist.

And that's also a great point about getting Z's DNA from Stines shirt using Super Glue. As many people who watch "Forensic Files" may know, when you stick a piece of fabric in a chamber with Super Glue & heat it up, the Super Glue fumes stick to any residue from the human body on that fabric. That's hilarious: As it proves the old joke that,

"The only thing Super Glue works on is human fingers!"
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   

Related thread:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/23/481 .html?1153225753
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 9:55 am:   

The movie web site, www.zodiacmovie.com looks like it's been updated, including "Unpublished photos from the author's collection." Like or loathe the books or movie, but the web site's amazing. (Not massive for research or anything like that, but fantastically presented.) Spooky and evocative.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 10:11 am:   

Where are the unpublished pix, I couldnt find them?
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 10:39 am:   

Go to the front of the site, choose "Washington & Cherry" to see the amazing 3D cab, and click on the triangles and circles that appear. With each item that you find, several new white circls will appear. Each of these will display a new photo. When the site first launched, there were just a couple of photos of the street corner and the letters, but now there are more photos to find, and they aren't just from the movie either. Some of them are labeled "previously unpublished from the author's collection." They also have clear copies of the "meeting Zodiac" memo, Paul Stine's license, etc.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:03 am:   

What, no pics of Zodiac's girlie gloves?
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:16 am:   

Why spoil a good theory with facts?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:16 am:   

I only saw one "author's collection" photo, that of the Stine scene. Actually, I've had that pic for years but didn't publish it because of the "no-blood" policy re: photos that I try and stick to whenever possible.

I didn't see Stine's license there, but I have a copy around here someplace.

Everything else at that site has been seen on the Internet before. Therefore I'm pretty disappointed in the content, although the site layout is quite good.

All in all, it makes me wonder "What happened to the 2,500 pounds of Z info they collected for the movie? Couldn't they have put some on their official website???"
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:51 am:   

It's still over three months before the movie opens, and they aren't about to pull a "Snakes On A Plane" and get the internet in a frenzy too far before the release of the movie. I'm sure they'll trickle out more stuff (especially ALA stuff.)

I'd not seen many of the photos, or else they were better quality than I'd previously seen. You've got me trumped on all aspects of what you've seen & know! I'm just happy that we weren't stuck with more pictures of Robert Downey Jr or something fake.

I wonder if this mysterious parking ticket is ALA near Washington & Cherry? (Or, as someone suggested, just an "A.Allen" ticket.) They're really focusing their attention on that particular murder for some reason.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:57 am:   

Actually, the movie opens in about 50 days...less than two months from now (March 2).

I can pretty much guarantee they have nothing of significance regarding Allen. Nothing.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   

I heard that the movie had been moved again to March 14th, although I can't find anything on the movei's web site, or IMDB, to clarify it either way.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   

I'm still scratching my head over that alleged "2,500 pounds" of information. I think it's off by about 3 decimal points... it's probably more like 2.5 pounds of stuff they printed out from this site and others. If they put it in Fincher's car, maybe then they can legitimately say it's 2,500 pounds of information... LOL
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 4:37 pm:   

Maybe it's an impounded car with ALA inside? That'd weigh about 2,500!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 5:07 pm:   

Either that or Stine's cab... Allen was cremated though and his ashes scattered at sea near San Rafael. He wouldn't weigh much now anyway...
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 5:16 pm:   

Unless it was all a cover-up by ALA's evil twin!

BTW, can you imagine, if he's still alive, what Zodiac must be thinking as this movie approaches?? It must be a zenith of his ambitions to be immortalized as the villan in a major film.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 6:04 pm:   

Especially one that is virtually guaranteed to muddy the case so much that he'll never be arrested...
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Nancydrew
Username: Nancydrew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:17 pm:   

hey tom, i noticed that you started a thread about the gloves back in early july of last year. (see the yarbchris post above for the link)

the movie was delayed a couple of times and i wonder if it's because they saw your thread about the gloves and decided to include it in the movie.

before anyone decides it's a farfetched idea, ask yourself how familiar the movie people have appeared to be so far with intimate details of the case.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:29 pm:   

Well, the producers of Snakes on a Plane were seriously taking suggestions for the movie from us, the unwashed masses, so seriously in fact that one of Samuel L. Jackson's lines was actually suggested by one of his fans! I've no doubt Fincher and his cronies are perusing this and other message boards for any little tidbit they can add (or reshoot/edit/whatever), which is why I think they've delayed it's opening by 4 months already...
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 5:37 pm:   

According to the California Dept. of Justice Special Report on the Zodiac Homicides

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SR1.html

Among the evidence collected in the Paul Stine case was a pair of black leather men's gloves, size 7.
Neither the CDOJ report or the police report mentions the area of the cab the gloves were recovered from.

To find out your glove size, measure around your hand with a tape measure across your palm. This will give you an idea of how small these gloves actually are. I have small hands even for my large physique, but these gloves would be a size and 1/2 too small. BTW, a size seven is usually considered "small" or "extra small" when sizing men's gloves.

Allen's hands don't appear very small in photographs.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenZWatch.html

The gloves obviously exist, but I find nothing compelling about them. Humans are forgetful people; They leave stuff in other people's cars all the time.

http://www.ridenow.org/carpool/lost_and_found.php
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 5:43 pm:   

A couple of years ago I lost a hat in an SF cab. Still, it's hard for me to believe Zodiac would have left gloves unless he wanted them to be found. Perhaps they were the "fake clew" he referred to.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 6:17 pm:   

I have a terrible image of Zodiac being arrested after all these years, then being asked to try on these crime scene gloves in a packed California courtroom. If the gloves don't fit...

Yarb is right- a men's small size is apparently 7- 7 1/2 so if these are men's gloves, as the report indicates, they are about the smallest pair made for adults and certainly wouldn't SEEM to fit a guy like Allen. A fake clew? Certainly possible.

I don't think that SFPD's inclusion of the gloves as evidence is any indication that these were necessarily believed to be Z's. They were potentially important evidence, of course, so were properly catalogued along with everything else relevant in Stine's cab.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:45 pm:   

Here's a question: What are the chances that Z would have worn size 10 1/2 Wingwalker boots and have hands the size of a small gibbon? Or a 7 inch wrist circumference, as indicated by the watch at Riverside?

Both the 10 1/2 shoe size and 7 inch wrist are considered "average" for the male population, which makes sense based on descriptions of his generally average size. I'm not exactly sure how wrist and shoe size correlate with hand size but it would seem unlikely that someone of average height, shoe size and (possibly) wrist circumference would be wearing gloves that are actually considered small to medium FOR A WOMAN.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 6:23 pm:   

The official movie website has been updated. They've added the March 2 date, as well as some new material. Well, I guess it's new if you've never been to this website.

Anyway, it seems to me their webmaster needs to ease up with the Flash stuff. Man, the Zodiac timeline area is just a jumbled mess. Incredibly annoying to try and navigate.

Also, it appears ol' Yellow Book was helping with the site, as there's a pic that's supposed to be the gate next to the Lake Herman crime scene. It's the wrong gate. Oh well.

I'm sure I could find more problems if I could just navigate their site more easily. Can't wait to see more on those womens gloves that apparently someone so wants to be the Zodiac's.

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