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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:21 pm:   

The "Zodiac" movie website claims the book was published in the mid 1960s and may have been of inspiration for the Zodiac. I researched the book briefly this evening and the publishing dates I've found are all in the mid 1970s.

1

In the event the book predates the Zodiac's murders and letters, I think it's worth exploring.
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Weeza
Username: Weeza

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:22 pm:   

wow, thanks!
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:07 am:   

Tom, is there a link or way we can see a bigger image of this? Or could you send me a copy?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:29 am:   

No, at the moment that's all I have unfortunately.

Until I can find a publishing date prior to the mid 1970s, I won't be getting too excited.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:35 am:   

It seems it was first published in 1965, so...
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:53 am:   

Thanks Ed. It pays to be cautious, though. Remember that astrology book a certain author claimed was probably of influence to Zodiac? Lol, and as it turned out the damned thing wasn't even published until the 1970s.

Well, this bomb book might be interesting. I figured the movie people might dig up something interesting with that huge budget.

Wish I had $60 to order it!
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:49 am:   

For all you budding pyros:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0398062285/ref=sib _dp_pt/002-0484011-3170465#reader-link
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 8:44 am:   

WOW! Black, square hoods with chest drapes, and a suspiciously familiar bomb diagram. This is the best double-stuff discovery since the Zodiac watch with the Gunsite design on it! IMO.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 10:21 am:   

Hi-

Just when you think there is nothing new under the Zodiac symbol...very interesting! I find the get-up these stalwart bomb defusers are wearing to be more than just a bit deficient. What about their legs if the bomb goes off!? But as inspiration for Z...food for thought!

BTW, the author is buried in Golden Gate Cemetery (or something like that)in SF...It's on the Net.

Mike
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:27 am:   

And he has a military background......

Lt. Lenz is buried in the famed Golden Gate Cemetery in San Francisco.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 9:57 am:   

In the above link, you can search words within the book.

Try: ammonium nitrate, photoelectric, fertilizer, leaf springs, kerosene (stove oil). All from the Buss Bomb letter.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:05 am:   

Very interesting--I'm tempted to shell out some money for this one. In addition to the items you mention, Warren, I'm particularly intrigued by that Phillies cigar box bomb. Kaczynski's second Unabomb device was placed in a Phillies cigar box, (see the Turchie Affidavit) and used match heads as an explosve. Match heads are also mentioned in the Lenz book.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:15 am:   

Doug, in googling the book I saw one for 19.95, just can't remember where.
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Anonymous
Username: Mburt76

Registered: N/A
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 6:56 pm:   

When did Lt. Lenz die?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:00 pm:   

They really run the gamut, Warren. I saw one on Amazon for over $200. I'll poke around and see what kind of deals I can get.
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Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:07 pm:   

Anonymous:

1999

Here's a link to grave site under that name. Not much info though.

https://secure.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page= gr&GSln=Lenz&GSfn=Robert&GSmn=R&GSbyrel=all&GSdyre l=all&GSst=6&GSob=n&GRid=913937&
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Mburt76
Username: Mburt76

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:08 pm:   

He saved the lives of may officers of the peace a true hero!, November 13, 2005
LEOMINSTER-- Elaine Lenz was frustrated and sad when her father Lt. Robert Lenz's birthday came and went, and she didn't have a local place to visit for remembrance.

Lt. Lenz is buried in the famed Golden Gate Cemetery in San Francisco.

"We haven't gotten to visit," said Lenz, who moved to Leominster from California 17 months ago. "He was a three-war veteran who gave so much to his country. He even published a book 'Explosives and Bomb Disposal Guide' that is still used."

Elaine Lenz -- who took care of her father for 32 years before his death -- was surprised when her daughter, Amy Wexler, purchased a brick and had it placed in his memory at Carter Park.

"I wanted her to have a piece of home here," Wexler said. "Somewhere to come take a peaceful walk."

The two women planted purple mums by Lenz' brick along with an American flag Friday evening during the city's Memorial Brick Dedication -- the ending to a day-long Veteran's Day event.

City officials, veterans, family members and scout troops crowded Carter Park for the event, which included a flag folding ritual, prayers and a ceremonial flag burning.

The city honored John Beike and Don Christian as veterans of the year.

"I'm honored and awestruck," City Council President Robert Salvatelli said of veterans' contributions over the years, adding that the ceremony and surroundings were a fitting tribute.

"Where else is there a park like this? There can't be another park like this in the state of Massachusetts where we honor our veterans."

Carter Park was dedicated to the city during the Revolutionary War, as a perpetual monument to the city's veterans.

There are about 1,900 bricks that line the walkways of the park, and Voutour noted another 75 to 80 were added Friday.

"What a great way to celebrate as a community," he said.
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Mburt76
Username: Mburt76

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:10 pm:   

Interesting that his daughter 'had' to care for him from about the year before Z started to the end of life. Probably war wounds...or PSTD? Will look into it more.
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Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   

There's an outfit on the web called AbeBooks which bills itself a a rare, used, and out of print book purveyor. It lists seven copies of this book, ranging from 40 dollars to over 200 dollars. I noted one of the offerings was printed in 1976 as a fifth edition. This book sounds like it was one of the heavy duty textbooks for bomb & explosive removal work by LE and the military.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   

Explosives and bomb disposal guide,
by Robert R Lenz

First published in 1965
by
Charles C. Thomas, Springfield, IL

It is available at AbeBooks

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?&isb n=0398062285&nsa=1
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Mburt76
Username: Mburt76

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 7:20 pm:   

ROBERT R LENZ 25 Oct 1925 17 Jun 1999 (V) 94546 (Castro Valley, Alameda, CA)

Will try to find any service record - one refers to him as a 'master' Gunny, USMC (ret)
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 8:32 am:   

I wonder where he was stationed 65-75, anyone have access to that kind of information?
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:55 am:   

I wonder if we might be missing the point of this interesting find?

By all means, check out Robert Lenz as a potential suspect but I think the more relevant point is that Z, regardless of his walk of life, could have found a book like this with minimal effort and created an almost viable bomb schematic.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Z ever atttempted to BUILD his bomb and I honestly tend to view the whole bomb threat as a diversionary tactic after the sloppiest work of his "career" at Presidio Heights.

In the Bus Bomb letter, Z spends the first three pages convincing everyone that any forensic evidence is useless.

-I don't REALLY look like the composite sketch
-The fingerprints ain't mine because I was leaving fake clews and wearing airplane glue on my fingertips.
-Ballistics? I ordered my killing tools via mail order.

After apparently lying about his encounter with Fouke and Zelms, he TWICE demands that his escape route from the crime scene be published in the newspaper. WHY?

The last four pages about his plans for bombing school buses were pure diversion in my mind. Z is almost demanding that SFPD IGNORE all of the forensic evidence from the Stine scene and focus on his nefarious plans to bomb school buses full of children. To me, the entire bomb threat was a fairly effective diversionary tactic after the biggest mistake Z had ever made.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:07 am:   

Not just that, Deoxys, but also a very convenient way of getting some mileage out of the credibility he'd achieved as a killer. No-risk, large-scale public terrorism, as it were.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:07 am:   

Incidentally, I found a copy of the book on Amazon at a reasonable price.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:13 am:   

I agree, Deoxys. That's why I think that the composite is fairly reliable, because he went to the effort of bashing it. If it didn't look like him, wouldn't he have just kept his mouth shut and let them look for the wrong guy?
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   

I don't think his whole "bomb episode" was a fake at all.

The Zodiac was a "compulsive documentor". He was obsessed with telling the public & police all about what he did in the commission of his murders.

Everything from "The Confession" letter in Riverside which detailed his ambush, to the phone calls immedeately after his Berryessa & Blue Rock Springs killings. Also the letter which explicitely spelled out unknown evidence of his Lake Herman Road double-murder. And then even a follow-up letter giving further detailed evidence of that murder that only he would know.

No, I'm convinced that this psychpath made serious inroads to building his "masterpiece", as he called it. That's why he urged anyone to build his fertilizer/ stove fluid bomb- because he had tested it & saw that it could "positively ventilate" any room that it was set off in.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 3:36 pm:   

Doug, I totally agree. Whether or not Z was actually working on a bomb, it would have been an effortless means of expanding his range of terror by scaring the bejesus out of the general public. I'm curious... if this was Ted K., do you think Ted was actually working on developing explosives at this time or merely taunting?

David, I've always viewed the Bus Bomb letter as chock full of deception and efforts to nullify evidence that might have been left at the Stine scene and yes, I think his reaction to the composite sketch is telling. I don't want to get too far off topic here but I do believe that the composite sketch was accurate enough to scare Z. Not perfect, I'm sure, but close enough that its being posted everywhere was likely very unsettling for him. I may have to revisit this idea in the Bus Bomb letter thread.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   

Im curious, and only someone who actually has this book will have the answer... Could Zodiac have just cribbed the letter straight from the book? Did he actually have to understand the relays and circuits, or is there enough description for him to string together?
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Weeza
Username: Weeza

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 4:13 pm:   

If you look at the publishing dates on Abebooks etc, one says 1963
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Weeza
Username: Weeza

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 4:13 pm:   

oops, 65
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 5:50 pm:   

I have my Halloween costume picked out for next year! It's between this and the Beekeeper on the Tarrance thread, LOL.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 6:07 pm:   

Deoxys, I've gone over that question a number of times over the past decade. My gut feeling is that if it was Kaczynski it was nothing more than a terror tactic. He evidently knew how to wire up bombs, even as a kid, and as the Unabomber, even his early devices detonated; and they were fairly sophisticated. But if you look at his career as a known criminal, you have to take into account his airline bomb threat of 1995 where, just like the Zodiac, he used the credibility fostered by his successful killings to make the authorities believe he was really going to blow up an airliner out of Los Angeles Airport. Of course that would have been an impractical thing to do, but he got just as much mileage out of the public's response as he would have gotten from a successful effort.

I think that by the time Zodiac reached the bus bomb stage he had pretty much had it with killing; at least for the time being. Not only had it proven too risky, but he may very well have gotten out of his system the thing that was bugging him.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 6:09 pm:   

AntiQBook has a copy of Linz's explosives book as mentioned above dated 1965 in "near fine" condition...50.00$
This is the original first edition as near as I can find.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 6:21 pm:   

Abebooks.com has seven copies and at least two are 1965.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:27 pm:   

I found the 1970 version, which just shipped today. I don't think the dates represent revisions, but simply extended printings.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 12:09 am:   

I would say you are correct, Douglas. The copyright page of the book, as shown at Amazon, has the following line:

(C)1965, by Charles C Thomas - Publisher

A list of years referred to as "printings," not "revisions" follows, listing the years 1965, 1970, 1971, 1973, and 1976. I'm not sure of the binding, but otherwise, you should be getting pretty much the same book as the original.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   

I just got my copy of this book. Outside of the hood thing, I can see no schematic or any other direct influence connected to Z. In fact, Z's bus bomb schematic is more complicated that what's shown it the book. None use photo sensors, and I didn't see any which used a relay. It looks like the kind of book which Z would have liked, but at first glance I see no direct connection from what is written in the book to Z. Mine is the 1965 version.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:18 am:   

Kevin, I received my copy of the book last week and have nearly worked through it. I have to agree with your assessment--I don't see any indication that this book worked any specific influence on Zodiac's bomb designs. In fact, had he used the book as a guide, he would probably have employed a simple clothespin trip wire on his bus bomb, assuming that the bomb was really intended to be deployed. (Perhaps its complexity was simply a desire on Zodiac's part to show off his technical skills.)

On the plus side, I don't think I wasted my money on the book. Apart from its being an interesting read, I honestly believe I now have the foundational knowledge to build a working bomb, should the need ever arise. And my understanding of bomb circuitry and explosives has been enhanced materially. Lenz is a clumsy writer, and the book is atrociously typeset, but apart from that, it's quite a useful little guide.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:19 am:   

One other thing: it's true that "leaf springs" were mentioned, but not in the context of a clock timing device. In fact, the clock timers/actuators shown all used a screw as a contact point.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:20 pm:   

Very true. I now have my very own copy of this book and I think it not connected in any way. That said, on the back there is a long list of other books available, all of which look very interesting. Mostly books geared towards police techniques, but one of which is called "Explosives and Homemade Bombs" by Joseph Stoffel
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:05 pm:   

By ordering this book I wonder how many 'watch lists' include your names now?
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 1:57 am:   

Being that it is a used book, probably none but even if it were the case, they could put me at the top of the list for all I care. First, it's just information and I have the right to access it if it's on the open market. Next, I live in Japan so I'm a little out of the jurisdiction of the USA at the moment. More importantly, I have nothing to hide. Good point though, that's the world we live in now.

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