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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:24 pm:   

...is what Zodiac mentioned after BRS in one of his letters. A "rather shabbly dressed" black man who he claims went to the police & described his car. Is there any offical report of this? Does this man exist at all?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:33 pm:   

There was a story in the Vallejo Times-Herald or the Vallejo News-Chronicle (my files are 600 miles south, so I can't check now) where VPD appealed to the public for this man to come forward, since he would likely have seen Z. To the best of my knowledge, this man, if he even existed in the first place, never came forward.
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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:53 pm:   

The curious thing is Zodiac mentioned that the man identified his car & reported it to the police, why would he say that? Was this a strange bluff? What would he get from telling this story?
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   

It was a shabbily dressed "negro"..
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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   

Same thing...
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   

Z obviously lied about it. He lied about other things too.
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   

I also believe that the Zodiac lied about it. What's interesting is that Z put this lie in the middle of one of his most crucial (for himself, as The Zodiac) letters: amidst critical "only the killer would know" information, he tosses in this lie casually.
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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   

Yes, but what was his motive for such a lie?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:45 pm:   

So the cops can spend wasted time trying to track down who this witness to Zodiac may have been while he laughs at throwing them a red herring.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:54 am:   

Amozartii, why would he need a motive to lie? Liars lie when the truth would better suit them, and Z was no exception. He lied to confuse the investigation, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a compulsive liar in his regular life.
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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   

Ok, but Zodiac said "the man who told the police my car was brown...". It must have been in the press that his car was brown, thus Zodiac assumed that this was the man who identified his car. So, this man may have exisited after all. I think there is more to this a just another Zodiac bluff. Thoughts anyone??
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Hog Hag (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   

Amo, if Zodiac had lied about this particular incident, VPD would have found about it right away. They would never put out a plea for the public to see. The newspaper article had to be sanctioned by VPD in order to urge such a witness to come forward. Somewhere in VPD files, there ought to be a witness file that could back up a part of Z's "negro man" claim.

However, that does not mean that the rather shabbly dressed negro reported someone to the police who had a brown car. He could have reported a white car. He could have said a white chevy. He could have said a lot more than just what Zodiac thought he had. That could be another reason that VPD could have returned Z's bluff by causing the newspaper article in order to protect the existence of such a vital witness.

Aside from this mysterious "negro man," no one could place a Z suspect near a crime scene as an eye-witness. The phone both was also considered a part of the crime scene because someone had used it to report the Vallejo attacks to VPD. So taking such a drastic measure was not all that far fetched.

VPD is the only entity which can shed more light on this particular incident. Since Vallejo attacks are still unsolved, therefore, the police have the rights to withhold certain facts from the public in order to seperate a real killer from chronic bed bug confessors.

As of now, it has been only assumed that the person who made the phone call had to be the person who carried out the Vallejo attacks. Maybe. Or, maybe not.
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amozartii (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   

I agree, his description about the man appears more specific & less likely to be a bluff.
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Hog Hag (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:36 pm:   

In his letter of August 1969, Zodiac hinted about "negro Man" incident. That is about a month after July 4 attack at Blue Rock Springs.

Was there any mention of this "negro man" in newspaper articles beside the one mentioned by Ed Neil?

Did the newspapers mention as to how this "negro man" told the police about the Z caller and his brown car?

This "Negro Man" might not have called the police right away when he noticed that the phone was ringing off the hook because he had nothing specific to tell the police about the Z caller.

This brings us to the point that this "negro man" might have reported the incident to the police in person after the police traced the call by contacting the phone company. There is more detailed info on this subject in the police reports for July 4 incident. Since the police was able to trace the phone call to that particular phone booth, it is fair to deduce that the experienced police dispatcher Nancy Slover was able to keep the Z caller on line long enough so his call could be traced. With tracing technology utilized by the telephone company circa 1969, one can find out the approximate time that it took for the telephone company to trace the call.

Upon arrival of the police, the "negro man" might have told the police about what he had heard and what he had seen. Or, after seeing the police activities, he could have called the police from a nearby telephone to pass them the info. Once again, only VPD would know the exact details about this crucial eye-witness.

As it is, only VPD knows if the Zodiac told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in his letter of August 1969.
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 5:58 am:   

I think Mike Mageau was the one who tipped police to the Z's car color. Who else would be in a position to do so? How would this witness who supposedly saw Z in a phone booth know he was seeing a serial killer? Was Z advertising himself as such to this passerby?
Doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, IMNTBHO…
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Stephen Williams (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   

Z could have lied about this man to put the police on a wild goose chase trying to find him.
Maybe Z thought this would be funny.
Just a thought.
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Stephen Williams (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 1:15 pm:   

Ed wrote "why would he need a motive to lie?"

Ed I agree, people who lie constantly do not need a reason to lie, I believe they do it because that's all they know how to do, and I think Z was like that, you can see it his letters.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   

If the Zodiac was fibbing about the man near the phone booth at Tuolumne and "Springs Rd," why would he say that it was a "negro man" and not a "caucasian man?" The Zodiac has never mentioned the word negro before. If he was gonna fib, he just as well of used the caucasian terminology. He was being to distinct when he described his encounter with a negro man..JMHO
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Hog Hag (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 2:40 pm:   

S. F. Nite Rider, here is the bottom line:

The Z caller was there.
A male negro might have witnessed Z and his car.
The police arrived at the scene after tracing the phone call.
There is no incident report released for the public consumption verifying the Z's claim.
No male negro ever came forward to help VPD despite of a published police pleas in a local newspaper.
I was not there to be able to vouch for Z.
As an eye-witness, were you there to back up the Z's account as claimed in his letter? If no, then how do you support your position that Z told the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, in his letter?

Zodiac is a perpetual hoax machine.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 3:05 pm:   

Hog,

The pleas went unanswered because, not everyone reads the newspaper. If there was no incident report released, it's because the negro man never came forward to give his account.. You can't have paper work if there is no one to take a statement from..

"Zodiac is a perpetual hoax machine?" You have stated this twice already! It very well seems that you Hog, have a personal, deep, dark hatred towards the Zodiac. Almost like a former investigator? What gives?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 3:30 pm:   

For what it's worth, I was in that phone booth at Tuolumne and Springs in March 1969. And I remember reading about the black man in the Vallejo Times Herald after 7-4-69. Nothing ever came of it.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 6:42 pm:   

SF--As I recall, the station was close to an exit/entrance to I-80. He may have jumped on I-80 after making the call.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 7:28 pm:   

Dave,

Your trippin'..LOL.. There wasn't an exit/entrance to I-80 at that intersection. The old gas station was about 4 blks. north of the Sheriffs office and jail..
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 5:46 am:   

Z 's chief slip-up was in claiming this witness identified his car as being brown. Where, other than Mike's id. does it say in the record that the perp drove a brown car?
If this guy for some inexplicable reason called the cops and said he saw an unremarkable white man in a phone booth standing there making a phone call, you'd think the police would at least ask the witness his name or jot down the fact he used his clairvoyant powers to identify this otherwise unremarkable man doing the only logical thing in a phone booth as a killer and called the police for a heads-up.
Makes total sense to me…
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Anonymous
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   

IMHO--No Negro,No Car,(Red Herring) "Z" Lived Within Earshot of that phone booth.Watched as LE did fingerprint work on phone..He walked to that phone booth!!JMO....Later.. Yea it's me ..BYE
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Anonymous
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   

Brian_d,
My same observation..Why give info nobody knows?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 4:14 pm:   

All I know is I got off I-80 at what I thought was the Springs Rd. exit. I hit my first phone booth in CA. and made a call. Regardless, I-80 is still a couple blocks from there(VSO), and Z could have easily left the local area. He did not have to live within eyeball of the booth and the Sheriff's office.

BTW--Where's the good Dr.?---She\He sure had me fooled. HaHaHa.
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 5:43 pm:   

There was a brown car. One of the victims, Mike Mageau identified his attacker's car as being brown. That's where the brown car came from. Not from a casual passerby who had no reason to notice and suspect a man in a phone booth making a call who was not otherwise calling attention to himself. I'm betting Z invented the black man to send investigators chasing their tails with "bussy work".
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Hog Hag (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   

If a Zodiac's claim in his letter can not be independently verified, it should be viewed as a grand lie.

Can not put it into a simpler term than that.
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 6:38 pm:   

You know, I never understood this whole 'serial killer as pillar of virtue' mindset some people seem to have of this creep. Why? Just because he wrote letters to area newspapers, you think he is incapable of telling a lie? Is that why he killed Paul Stine at Washington and Cherry?
Prove your contention that he is truthful in all things by cracking the "my name is" code and prove beyond all doubt his true name is there or the 340 cipher, assuming it says anything at all.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 6:43 pm:   

Thanks, gentlemen. I'm glad there are others who understand that murderers are not always truthful and that anything they say/write must be viewed with suspicion unless verified.
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Tutti Frutti (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   

I have been thinking about Zodiac's claim of "male negro" and "brown car" for a while.

If Z told the truth, then the least thing that this alleged male negro could report to the police, would have been the license plate number for the brown car.

Had he made the report in person, or had he made the report over the phone, someone from VPD would at least ask him for the license plate number if the male negro wished to remain as an anonymous tipster.

If VPD could receive such a tip shortly after July 4 attack, there was a good chance we would not have a Z case to begin with for years to come.
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Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   

In Z's letter before the phone booth, Z mentions he left the scene calmly as not to draw attention, also he claims he did not drive away at a high rate of speed. According to the Vallejo police report George the groundskeepers son at BRS who was listening, first heard the gun shots, a couple then a number, right after one another. Then he heard a car a leave the scene at an ultra speed, burning rubber and tires screaming. If Z possibly lied in his letter about the way he left BRS why should he tell the truth about the phone booth?
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Anonymous
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   

Could a tan color be considered brown? I heard the car was tan.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 8:46 am:   

Anon,

Come on, you used to color with crayola crayons didn't you? remember what color tan was? just a lighter shade of brown...The same color as the trunk of a eucalyptus tree..
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 12:51 am:   

Nite Rider, Thank You for answering my question. I knew the answer. I just need verification.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 1:16 am:   

(1) The information from the letter is being given in direct response to a request for additional identity verification. The other information given in the same context appears to be truthful (mostly). Therefore, I believe Z is being honest in the conveyance of this information.

(2) We know that Z changed his behavior when he made his call to the Napa PD about three months later. Instead of hanging up the phone, he set it down thus avoiding the possibility of a ringback. This behavior modification is consistent with an experienced-based learning regarding the described ringback; not to mention it just sounds like good police procedure to implement a ringback under these circumstances. Therefore, I suspect the ringback did happen as described. Perhaps Nancy will provide some additional insight on this front. I've already asked the question in the other thread.

(3) We know that Mike Mageau described the car as being brown here (4th paragraph).

(4) As mentioned previously, Z's statement implies that he knows somebody told police that his car was brown. Although I don't have the reference, this clearly implies that the detail was published somewhere.

Given all of the above, I suspect that Z honestly believed that the described witness was the person who told police about his car. He apparently, quite reasonably, believed that MM could not have ascertained the color of his car. This left the witness as the most probable source. The fact that the witness was never identified seems to imply that he chose not to come forward or that he was unaware of law enforcement's desire to talk to him.
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Norm (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 9:54 am:   

Very good observations Mike. Nice of you to occasionally post in the public area. Thanks for pointing these things out.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   

Thanks Norm.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:37 am:   

I tend to think the shabbily dressed negro was a Zodiac creation. If not, I would have had police officers camped out by the phone booth until he came back again. He was on foot, I believe, and probably on a route he followed often.
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Hog Hag (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:01 am:   

Warren, in addition to your observation, why not look at it this way.

Mike Mageau was the one who reported the color of Z's car as brown.

Considering his physical and mental states at the time of his color observation, Mageau's statements can not be taken as absolute facts without subjecting them to extreme scrutiny.

It is very possible that Zodiac decided to use that brown color after reading about it in a local newspaper in order to mask the real color of his car, which was not brown.

Only VPD knows for sure if such a "negro male" ever existed.
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Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   

Hag,

VPD wouldn't know.. Their assumption is from what the Zodiac wrote in his communication to the paper.. Only the Zodiac would know for sure.

Warren.. Do you have any idea how many "negro males" walk in that neighborhood, on a given night or day? How would VPD even know who they were looking for, if one did happen to walk by?
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Anon (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   

Its all really pretty simple. Mike Mageau told the cops that the killer's car was brown. Zodiac was seen in the phone booth by a black guy who happened to be passing by and assumed that he was the one who past the info.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 5:02 pm:   

No, it's not so simple. Zodiac would have known that Mageau survived and was talking to the police. Why would he assume the info about his car came from another source?

My bet is Zodiac was planting a "fake clew" with his story of the black man.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   

Nite Rider In 1969, not very many,and even less in Napa. Tom is right,I also think it was a "fake clew". Zodiac didn't like people thinking he was a liar, yet he lied most of the time.He was a pretty good liar, because most people who lie don't give details like a "shabbily dressed" negro.
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Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:25 pm:   

Sandy,

The whole area east of Tuolumne St.... Alabama St. Lousiana St, Ohio St, Kentucky St, Springs Rd, south to Carolina and extending east to Mariposa St, has always been predominately "Black". That area today, is what's known as "Millerville" a gang infested hood.. So, I tend to disagree with you.
Sorry about that!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 5:09 pm:   

That's ok NR. I was there 5 out of 7 nights , I just didn't see many in 1968 or 69.Working on Springs rd.I hardly ever saw any in Flimingo Joe's .People came from S.F. Oakland, SanJose to dance to the Candells at the Coronado Inn, even then I didn't see very many. Now is a different story I agree.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   

For what it's worth, the whole time I lived on Heartwood, and down at Marina Vista, I don't recall ever seeing a black person. I never saw one at Flamingo Joe's, the Fireside, or the ValNap either.---F Joe's was about 6-8 blocks west from my parent's house.
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Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:53 pm:   

Sandy, Davo,

You guy's are totally on the other side of Hwy 80. There is a big diff. from one side to the other... Dave, remember, I lived on the 800 blk. of Beechwood just on the other side of Hogan and Lamont Ct. I know, that area was mostly "white". But we are talking about two diff. areas here.. Look at the square blockage that Iam referring to on my last post.. Vallejo has always had its areas of segregation just like every goodsized town.. Oh, I forgot.. Not Napa! How could they, they walk with their noses high in the air..LOL
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   

NR,It wasn't because they were stuck up. Word had gotten around about a black family who had moved to Napa. Sadly their house was set on fire by what I was told was a bomb.I was told that that was the reason they didn't want to be there. I moved there because my husbands family was there, and it was close to work.Flamingo Joe's was on the east side of 80, Fireside was on the west side and so was the Coronado Inn.We are talking about the 60's .
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Anonymous
Username: Jim_t

Registered: N/A
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   

How many people think if Z was driving a Corvair when he left BRS he could have made the tires screeching, burning rubber sounds the groundskeeper son heard?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:42 pm:   

Anonymous, I don't believe it was a corvair or a Falcon in the first place.I think the grounds keepers son is telling the truth that the killer took off fast. Once the killer got out of the park, he may have slowed so he wouldn't get stopped for a speeding ticket. The groundskeepers son wouldn't have any reason to lie about it.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   

Turn it around: Z noticed the "shabbly dressed negro" because Z was a bit skittish, having just committed a murder. But unless Z was in full costume in the phone booth, there presumably was nothing striking about him that would have caught the attention of the passerby. Proof of this: Z doesn't mention the Negro as reacting in any way to him or the ringing pay phone.

It may be that the Negro - who I tend to believe DID exist - gave no particular thought to the encounter, maybe he read the news accounts later, maybe not. Just another member of the Silent Majority!

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