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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   

If the Zodiac is older than we think. (in his 80's), he could be the Texarkana killer and the Zodiac killer in the Bay Area.

Does anyone think this is possible?
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:00 am:   

Socal,
We discussed this subject at length.See archived board.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 5:55 pm:   

Thanks, sorry about that.....I will look it up.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   

Interesting read over there on the archives.

Seems like alot of similarities.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   

If anyone knows of any Alaska conncection to the case, please list them here.

Specifically AFTER Zodiac stopped killing.

Something like letters, or rumors, or plane flights, or anything to do with Alaska.

This case is going to be solved by a long shot theory (which is followed up on and has facts attached to it).

Here is my theory and a little info on the person who would be Z (one of the many thousands of course).

-Lived in or near Texarcana as a young boy/man. (Was he thrilled with the killing?)

-Lived in Vallejo during the murders.

-Moved out of Vallejo after the killings stopped.

-Moved to Alaska.

Other details????

-Navy man.

-Married, but no sex in marriage.

-Unable to have sex, but high sex drive.

-Has no kids.

-Does not like kids.

-Is a registered sex offender.

-Could leave the house and come back in a week and his wife would never ask why or where.

-There is more, but that is enough for now.

Here is my thought. If there is anything from Alaska....even a rumor, phone call, letter, etc. How many people in this world would have been in Texarcana during those murders, in Vallejo during the Z killings, and then in Alaska (if there is any evidence of something being in Alaska)?

My guess would be 1.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 8:40 am:   

Maybe there was something in the Texarcana post that I dont know about but where did the Alaska thing come from?
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   

Perhaps Socal is referring to Robert Hansen, an Alaskan serial killer who hunted his prey General Zaroff style.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:03 pm:   

Ubplclaw.....I read thru the archives and didn't see anything related to Alaska.

Yarchris......I am not familiar with Robert Hansen.

The suspect I have in mind, lived in (Near) Texarcana during those killings and lived in Vallejo during the Z killings. He then moved to Alaska, at the same time the Z killings stopped and Z disappeared.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:41 pm:   

Socal,
But Z didn't dissapear after the killings stopped. He continued his campaign of fear by writing to police and newspapers and they were mailed from the Bay area. Unless he traveled back and forth from Alaska to the Bay area frequently and did his communications through the mail when he was back in the area.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   

That is a possibility with my suspect. He may have traveled back and forth.

Also....I do believe that alot (or at least some) of the Z letters after the last known murder are arguably not Z's.

If I am wrong, will somebody correct me on this. There is some doubt about alot of the letters (or at least some), after Z quit killing.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 11:52 pm:   

While this interpretation is in great doubt, the Graysmith tale about that odd emblem (that ./\. thingee) meaning, in semophore, "Northwest Am I" comes to mind. Alaska being quite a ways northwest of Vallejo.

But, as they say in Texarkana, that's a mighty thin nail upon which to hang such a large ten-gallon hat.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 7:26 pm:   

I am unfamiliar with semophore and the connection to Graysmith.

Is the ./\. thingee something in a letter?

That is the type of "thingee" I am looking for (no pun intended).
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   

It's referred to as the "wide flange beam" symbol (it isn't one, actually), and it appears in Z's 10-27-1970 Halloween card and on the envelope. No one knows what it really symbolizes.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 7:53 pm:   

So that Halloween card was before Z stopped killing (known killings) or after known killings?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 12:49 am:   

A year after his last known murder (Stine).
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   

Ed....You are saying that symbol has nothing to do with Alaska?

Or it possibly could have a connection in some way, or form?
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 8:29 pm:   

Could this "wide flange beam" have anything to do with "Northern Lights"?
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 8:39 pm:   

upbclaw.....I just read over these posts again.

Sorry if I confused you a little. The suspect I am thinking of has never been mentioned on this board or in any newpaper.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   

In the yellow book, someone claimed that the symbol represented a "wide flange beam," and we've been calling it that ever since so that everyone would know precisely what we were talking about. It sounds a lot better than saying, "that other Z symbol"... otherwise, I doubt it has any connection to Alaska (at least, none that I am aware of)...
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   

Thanks Ed. I will check out the yellow book for that.

So, probably not anything to do with Alaska, but we don't know what it means.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:44 pm:   

Personally, I think it's Mt D as seen from the attack site on LHR. The 4 dots represent Z's 4 attacks.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   

http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14251/css /14251_85.htm

The above link has a chart of symbols for structural steel. Notice the first in the list is the old symbol for a "wide flange beam."

Ed - Mt. Diablo makes a lot of sense. I had considered the Twin Peaks, but couldn't make it work.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 4:50 am:   

I think the Wide Flange Beam symbol is an L and an F, and it's Z hiding his initials. Also, notice how Z underlines the L A V on the envelope. Is this a clue?

I also think it's a strong possibility that Z took a 2 1/2 year pause from writing letters because he was called in as a suspect, but for some reason, was able to avoid giving finger prints and hand writing samples, maybe do to lack of evidence or my favorite, he was a public nuisance.

Let me explain: Public Nuisance are those who always try to hang with the cops. They are cop wanna be's. The police find them annoying but tolerate them. I know of two serial killers who were public nuisance, and thats why they were so hard to catch, because the cops said "hell, it can't be him, we know that guy". Thus, Public nuisance are ruled out.

Now, let me sum it up. Sometime after Z's March 1971 letter, he's questioned as a suspect. This scare's him. Specialy since he thinks he can't be caught. Thus, he stops writing letters until he feels the heats off by 1974.

Therefore, If we could get our hands on the full list of suspects that were brought in, I would start looking for anyone with the initials L and F.

This is just another avenue I thought of that might help catch the Zodiac.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 11:25 am:   

Hawk, Thanks for your input ,I believe you are right about him being spoken to as a suspect.I think he was thought of as just some nice guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, because he is sooo polite.The L in my book would be Larry of course, the F , well I won't go there. The flange I have always felt was a crude drawing of Mt. D. I have drawn it many times myself, being that I live very close to the north end of Mt D. not far from Clayton, and see it every day.The 4 dots I think could be the 4 people I believe who are very much involved in the Z crimes, 2 on the east side of the Mt. and 2 on the west side.That is just a guess, which would help explain why we have so many different discriptions of Zodiac.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 11:21 pm:   

It's also possible that Z challenges us to re-arrange the lines and dots on the "wide flange beam" (if you must) to come up with some other symbol or initials. I've postulated such before, regarding other writings, and so have others (i.e., the "Chinese characters" on the missing barrel - one of the Santa Rosa co-ed victims).

But "Mt. Diablo" also works for me...
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 3:38 am:   

Sandy, 4 people? Now I'm curious.

J eric, I notice how you always look for double meanings in Z's writings, but, I rely on Hartnell's first impression: "He did not seem well educated".

I think Z was simple minded with a little bit of psycho mixed in.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 7:34 am:   

Hawk, Hartnell really didn't have any way of knowing. I believe he was going on an impression based on Zodiac's appearance, which he continually described as sloppy. Weigh that against the perfect grammar and syntax of the letters, the high literary allusions, the evidence of intellectual eclecticism and the extreme degree of self-control he conveys, and I think the conclusion has to be that he was fairly bright. And certainly not psycho--he was far too self-controlled for that.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 9:02 am:   

Doug, do you think that Z could have known about the Texarcana killings?

Isn't the hood similar and the young victims similar?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 2:59 am:   

Doug, are you telling me that you have never met or talked to a person that you got the impression that they seemed a little slow and or not very bright, by their demeanor, diction, thought pattern and slow draw or slur in their voice?

Doug I'm not saying Z is retarded, I'm saying he is average or even below average intelligents and not a genius.

You said "And certainly not a psycho". You don't think having an urge to kill innocent unarmed people is kinda Norman Bate ish?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 6:56 am:   

Socal, I think he might very well have heard of the Texarkana killings. Yes, the hood was a similar element, and so were the young victims. But there is a distinct sexual element to the Texarkana crimes, particularly rape, which the Zodiac incidents don't possess. The Texarkana killer is a sexual psycopath, or what's commonly known as a classical serial killer, while Zodiac has the mentality of a disaffected killer: someone who has an axe to grind against society.

Hawk, I've certainly met people whose speech gave me the impression that they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. With Zodiac we have to weigh Hartnell's impression against the definite facts conveyed in the correspondences and the manner in which the crimes were carried out.

As to whether he's a psycho, my remarks to Socal above apply there as well. If he's a psycho, he gives no indication of it. I know there's a tendency that people have to put arbitrary labels on people who commit egregious acts, but we should really look at the facts before jumping to conclusions. The evidence suggests that Zodiac was a sex-starved individual who lashed out against classes of people whom he envied and then got carried away with a publicity campaign. Apart from murder, he doesn't really do any of the things that are commonly associated with a psychopathic or sociopathic killer. He simply assaults his victims in blitz-style attacks then walks away, satisfied that he's achieved his symbolic revenge. That's typical of the disaffected killer--someone who's reached the end of his metaphorical rope and "isn't going to take it anymore." With the sociopath there's a "recreational" element that's completely missing in the Zodiac crimes.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 8:35 am:   

The evidence suggests that Zodiac was a sex-starved individual who lashed out against classes of people whom he envied and then got carried away with a publicity campaign.

Doug, I agree with you 100%.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 10:25 am:   

Thanks, Warren. Obviously (and I'm sure someone will point it out) we can't prove it 100 percent, but the evidence certainly tends that way.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   

Doug, very very very well put.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 6:29 pm:   

Doug. Thanks.

Here is my thoughts. I don't think the Zodiac and the Texarcana killer is the same guy.

I think that Z may have lived in the Texarcana (or relatively close) during the Texarcana killings as a young kid or teenager. He may have had tendancies at that time and thought that the Texarcana killings were "cool".

As an adult he may have decided to be a similar (but not exact) type of killer as his childhood hero or fantasy.

The kid could have been 8 to 22 years old during the killings in Texarcana, and moved to Vallejo at a much later date, due to service obligations.

And wouldn't a sexually impotent male fit the description of your sex-starved killer?

Just some thoughts and questions.
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 8:05 am:   

Just because the killings are similar doesn't mean they are by the same guy or that the Zodiac was in the area. What are the chances that the detective mags picked up on this thrilling story and ran it? Maybe Zodiac, like BTK, liked these trashy mags.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 8:23 am:   

Breakout. This is true also.

There were plenty of trashy murder mags around in the 60's.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 11:25 pm:   

Doug, your point on how there was a sexual element to the Texarkana crimes vs. Z crimes is certiany true. However, one point of interest is that Z may not have known about the difference. The fact that some of the female murder victims in Texarkana were raped was NOT printed in the newspapers at the time. Thus, Z could have identified very closely with the killer and the facts as he knew them could well have contribued in the development of his fantasies.
Of your overall assessment of Z as a sexually frustrated killer who found he really liked the publicity, I think you are on target.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 9:40 am:   

That's true, Mike; no reason why he couldn't have taken some kind of "inspiration" from the Texarkana murders.

I tend to think that the Stine murder was carried out simply to obfuscate Zodiac's motives, and that's why he needed some really strong physical element, to-wit, the bloody shirt, to ensure that he'd get the credit for the deed. The first three killings really went to the heart of what his motives were all about. After Berryessa people started to catch on, and lots of theories were offered up as to sexual frustration and homosexuality; things that he didn't like being imputed to him. Stine might very well have proven to be Zodiac's final murder, even without the near-disastrous encounter with the police.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 3:53 am:   

Doug, again I must compliment you on this train of thought. Sexual-starvation\frustration relative to sexual sadist seems to put all Zodiac crimes in perspective. It fits.

Personaly, I think Zodiac had been rejected from every angle most of his life. From high-school students in his teens (particularly those with breast), to co-workers in his adult life(particularly those with breast), and eventualy he snapped.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 5:43 am:   

Thanks, Hawk, and I believe your assessment is right. Remember, too, that the guy is publicity hungry, which suggests to me that he needs to stand out in the public eye in order to compensate for his social maladroitness.

Incidentally, "sexual starvation" was how Ted Kaczynski described himself to a reporter a number of years ago. Only he called it "acute sexual starvation." It's easy to see why he'd become a suspect in the Zodiac case. I'd expect a similar pathology with any other suspect.

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