Zodiac's IQ Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Zodiackiller.com Message Board » General Zodiac Discussion » Zodiac's IQ « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 9:45 am:   

I was wondering if it's possible to arrive at some consensus regarding Zodiac's IQ. I'm thinking minimum 110, based on his organization and the contents of his letters.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 9:51 am:   

I don't believe spelling nor grammer is an indicator of high or low IQ. I think it is possible Zodiac possessed a high IQ however was not well educated.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   

Average is considered to be 90-110, with genius at 150. Z was no genius, but was definitely above average intelligence. My guess would be in the 125-135 range.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:05 pm:   

Well above average, IMO, based on the ciphers alone. There are, of course, different aspects of intelligence so despite the erratic spelling, I think Ed's estimate is a good one.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   

When I say minimum of 110 I mean exactly that; it could be anywhere from 110 to the highest levels. I don't think we have any way of determining whether Zodiac was a genius. A genius can always present himself as something less than a genius, or fail to give sufficient information for us to tag him; on the other hand, a dunce is going to have a very difficult time coming across as more intelligent than he actually is.

IQs from 110 upward represent 25 percent of the population.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   

I would say from 110 to 140, at least. I administered, scored, and interpreted IQ tests and others in grad school. I gave an IQ test to myself even, and increased my score by about 25%. Keep that in mind. IQ scores depend on your socio-economic background, how often and what kind of tests you have taken, and who is scoring the tests. They are not a very accurate measurement of intelligence, imo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 9:04 pm:   

A full scale IQ test, like a Wechsler test, given and scored individually is a pretty fair measurement of a person's intellect when other factors such as socioeconomic status are considered as Valleyo Dave mentions (Dave, you and I had the same job in grad school, one of the professors I worked for taught the IQ test class!). I agree also that a person's test sophistication, how well they understand the theory of tests, is an important factor. If you know enough about tests you can pass almost anything whether you know anything about the subject or not!
My estimate of Z is close to Douglas and Daves, as I would say he was brighter than average but not a genius, somewhere around 125. I agree the spelling errors are not at accurate measure of intelligence as I have known some bright people who could not spell worth a damn!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 4:13 am:   

110 tops. If a person with an average IQ concentrates hard enough about a subject, then they can come up with all kinds of neat ideas.

For example: Zodiacs first choice was to pick off the little kiddies as they come bouncing out. Then later, after he has had more time to concentrate deeper on how to threaten to kill school kids, he comes up with the bus bomb (that doesn't work I might add).

Look at it from the otherside of the fence for a minute. I'll use Ed Neil for an example. I don't know where he ranks on the IQ list but, he comes up with fantastic ideas about the zodiac case, and I think it's because he's able to get into a deep concentration about it.

BTK,Bundy,Berkowits, these killers would eat sleep and drink killing.

Be honest, did Zodiac come up with any idea you could not think of yourself? JMHO
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 4:54 am:   

Hawk - I believe all of those correspondences that Zodiac put out were meant to tease, deceive and frighten. He tries to disguise his identity by making us believe he is something he is - more-than-likely not. However, possibly through rote, he inadvertently gave us clues that he is more intelligent than he wants us to believe. Some of his punctuation, grammar usage, ability to create complex code, etc. make me believe he is of above-average intelligence (maybe not genius, but clearly above average). I would conclude, Zodiac, in his real self, was an excellent writer and maybe wrote other types of work (maybe fiction, short-stories, etc.)... and I certainly believe he was a letter writer. The Z had a NEED to write and I'll bet there is much more of Z's works out there than we really know about.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 6:36 am:   

I'm not arguing for any particular figure; I'm just interested in a range where I can place him. If we say a minimum of 110 it immediately eliminates 75 percent of the population as suspects.

The same is true of his sex, his race, his age group and his heavy facial structure with the prominent chin, which is about the only physical feature that anyone can agree on.

If his sex is 50 percent of the population, his race 75 percent, his age group 30 percent and his heavy facial structure 80 percent, then the probability of anyone possessing all those traits, including the I.Q. range would be .50x.75x.30x.80x.25 or 2.25 percent or 4,567,500 individuals out a 1969 population of 203,000,000.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 4:26 am:   

Linda, you said Complex code? Anyone who reads the newspaper will see the daily cryptogram. Now just simply make it Poly-Alphabetic.

Doug, don't forget, Zodiac was Right-Handed, a Loner, unmarried and had light-brown hair. lol
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 5:23 am:   

I'm not just thinking of the one code that was solved, Hawk... There are the others, which I do believe were meant to be read - if able to be solved - even the 3-part cipher that the Hardins did solve, was not your run-of-the-mill code that would be able to be solved by a respectable number of individuals - even if they knew it was poly-alphabetic.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 6:29 am:   

True on at least some of those counts, Hawk. We don't know if he was unmarried (we can assume it, but we don't know it), and his hair color was described by eyewitnesses as anything from blonde to dark brown, so we can't be sure of that either.

Here are the categories I'm including in my analysis:

Male
Caucasian
Age 25-45
Facial structure
I.Q.
Potential murderers
Disaffected killer
Widespread publicity
Literary allusion
Line-in-circle graffiti
Elaborate disguise

Zodiac was a rare and unique killer. If this were not so, we would not be here today discussing his case on a website that receives gazillions of hits per year by amateur sleuths and others interested in the case. Consequently, it's not surprising that an analysis of the probability of any other killer being like him gives very high odds against it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 10:03 am:   

Here is something else to narrow the control group:

Z had a CA drivers license.

Z was a CA resident.

Z used felt tipped or flair pens.

Would that not bring the control group down from 200 plus million to 8 or 10 million? And,in 69-70, he was in Norcal, so you could cut the CA population in half for the group.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 10:29 am:   

Dave, those things would definitely work, except for the felt-tipped pens--I think you could include almost anyone in that group. One thing to remember, too, is that this comparison must apply equally to Kaczynski, since that's the subject of my study. Also, I'm trying to be very conservative in presenting the figures. In fact, I've taken out the last three because they're so hard to quantify. And I've been forced to highball the stats on murderers because the current data don't narrow the field down sufficiently to give an exact number.

For instance, I can't simply take the number of homicides for 1969 and apply it as a percentage because Kaczynski wasn't a known killer in that year--he isn't known to have killed until 1985. So what I did was estimate the number of potential killers from 1969 through 1985 by assuming that every actual homicide in that range of years would have represented a potential homicide in 1969. The resulting percentage (.16 percent) is about sixteen times higher than if I had used 1969 homicides alone. It's also higher than it ought to be because I'm assuming one homicide to one murderer, and we know that isn't the case.

It's also hard to figure out the number of disaffected killers in the population because no one keeps statistics on that kind of thing. So once again I had to extrapolate by taking all of the known circumstances for all the known homicides given by the DOJ for all available years and eliminate those homicides whose circumstances absolutely ruled out a disaffected killer. This figure, at 33 percent, is undoubtedly many times higher than what subjectively we know it must be. But it covers the entire field.

The real killer so far as these statistics go is the percentage of homicides in which the perpetrator uses a series of murders to gain widespread national publicity, obtain the credibility to commit public terror on a state or national scale, and demand publication of his material on pain of further killings. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure this one out. Hint: it's small.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 12:23 am:   

Hawk, you wrote:

"Anyone who reads the newspaper will see the daily cryptogram. Now just simply make it Poly-Alphabetic."

Z's 3-part cipher (and likely his other ciphers) is not polyalphabetic; it is homophonic. Homophonic substitution ciphers employ multiple ciphertext symbols per plaintext character in order to mask the frequency characteristics of the plaintext. However, it is a fundamental characteristic of homophonic substitution ciphers that each ciphertext symbol maps to one and only one plaintext character.

Polyalphabetic substitution ciphers, on the other hand, continuously and algorithmically modify the mapping of ciphertext symbols to plaintext characters. In other words, a given ciphertext symbol will likely represent one plaintext character during its first use, a different character during its second use, etc.

Generally, polyalphabetic substitution ciphers are stronger than homophonic substitution ciphers. However, Z's ciphers are so short that the weaknesses of the homophonic substitution cipher are not easily exploited.

I agree with Linda that Z's use of ciphers does suggest an above-average intelligence.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   

Mike, LOL. I'm fully aware of the many different types of ciphers. I've been playing around with them since I was a teenager. I even have the software that will crack the 340 cipher provided it said anything. But thats a different thread. I was merely trying to keep it Simple so that Linda could see how Simple a person with an average IQ could come up with idea of a cipher in the first place.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 6:23 am:   

So when are you going to run this software that will crack the 340 cipher? Seems like you would have run that by now. The world has been waiting thirty five years, I'm anxious to finally know what it says.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:16 am:   

I'm kind of curious myself.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 12:57 pm:   

I already have and let me add, this software will attack it from every angle, letter frequency, up, down, backwards, letter groups, the whole nine yards. If you want to discuss it further, start a thread in the code section. I'll be glad to join in.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   

What does it say?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   

Doug,it don't. Trust me.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 7:40 am:   

From my very poor work on the 340, I would agree with Hawk.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 8:08 am:   

Try useing a mirror image,that is how it was solved in the Sherlock Holmes movie Secret Weapon.In that movie someone sent 4 coded messages,3 where broken but the third wasn't until they used the mirror. Perhaps the Z got his idea from this movie ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   

Having known a lot of people from Mensa, I second the observations that bad spelling, bad grammar, bad penmanship, or even bad reasoning doesn't exclude one from the genius level of IQ.

I've also known people who had IQs well OVER the genius level (140 for most standards) who were significantly impaired socially and even bordered on the "kook" fence.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:14 pm:   

I think he could of been at a genius level. People that are of a high intelligence snap sometimes. They are I guess nerds and misunderstood and Im sure isolate themselves,because they don't relate to the average person. Also it would lead to not having a relationship with a woman.

When I was 18, I was a custodian and this guy I worked with supposably had an high IQ. He used alot of long words or words that a person with an average IQ wouldnt know the meanings. He was a Russian fella. He was a pretty weird fella and he would isolate himself fron his co-workers. I had no proof he was smart, I just went on what I heard from him and what my co-workers told me about him. Heck Zodiac could of been a janitor somewhere.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 3:11 pm:   

I think he was either of average intelligence or maybe a little higher than average. As far as the ciphers and codes, he could have used a book or magazine as a guide or template. I see little to indicate anything higher than average intelligence.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   

I do, Yarbchris, and that's the use of literary allusion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 8:07 pm:   

Maybe so. Then maybe it was just something he remembered from high school. I'm not saying he had the mental equivalent of a bag of hammers. I do think he wanted to appear intelligent.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

John_prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:30 pm:   

building on what ed said in an earlier post, RE. I.Q.:
average is 100 with a standard deviation of 15 (+ or -).
something like 67.something percent of the population falls into this first standard deviation (again, either + or - from 100).
two standard deviations away from the mean is a bit more exclusive (the number escapes me...).
beyond two standard deviations (either at 131 and above or 69 and under) only about 1.3 percent of the population resides here (for lack of a better term...), and are considered "extraordinary".
when you divide that up between the extraordinarily smart and the unfortunately stupid, you get only about .65 percent of the population having an I.Q. at or above 131...

that being said i find it unlikely our lil unsub here had an I.Q. above 130. imho, the best possibility here is that he was somewhere between a low of 85 and a high of 115,
thats not to say he couldnt have had (or have depending upon if hes still alive) an I.Q in the more exclusive or even extraordinary range, but it is much more unlikely when one consideres the standard deviations and the percentages....

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous"
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration