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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 4:12 am:   

Zodiac made his call from this point approximately 40 minutes after the murder at BRS.
From Ed's recent timing it would have taken Z about 9-10 minutes to reach this point, which leaves 30 min unaccounted for.

The question I wanted to ask is, why here/why this particular phone?
We do know that it was pretty close to the Sheriff's dept and the Ferrin home. It has been suggested that Z was calling close to P.D stations, however the call from Napa was on the main street and I believe 4 1/2 blocks from the station there, so I don't know if that's really the same thing or if we can deduce that that was Z's aim.

It could of course be coincidental that Z phoned so close to these places in Vallejo, but it seems unlikely.
If Z was stopping off en route to some other town city, would this have been a convenient stop for him a couple of blocks off HWY 80/ would the 37 have been more convenient? Or does it suggest that either Z (being an outsider) had some purpose for picking this location or does it suggest he was more likely local because he picked this location?
I don't know how many public phones he could have stopped at between here and BRS, but why this particular one?
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 8:50 am:   

Sean regarding the Napa phone call, at the time the sheriff's office was located in the basement of the old courthouse. The courthouse faces Brown St. between 2nd & 3rd and takes up the whole block. It's about 2 1/2 blocks from where the carwash was located. Z was actually a little closer to LE.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   

Sean, at midnight, Z could have gotten to that phonebooth in less than 9 minutes (perhaps I'll time it next time I go to the gym). There are no convenient freeways/highways close to that location; I-80 is 5 blocks east of there, but it's not like Tuolumne & Springs is a handy location just off the freeway to make a phone call.

Unfortuntely, payphones come & go (the one at the former Napa Car Wash is long gone, for instance), so there's no telling what other phones in the area he could have stopped at. We don't even know what route he took from BRS to the gas station; all we do know is that there is roughly 30 unaccounted for minutes.

Did Z just cruise around and decide 25 minutes later to call VPD, and stopped at the next phone booth, quickly composed his message, and made the call? Or, like Yellow Book suggested, did Z go home (assuming he was local, and I'm not even thinking of Allen), didn't hear any sirens for several minutes and assumed his crime had not yet been discovered, and so drove to a random (or conveniently close) phone booth to call and report it?

If Z was not local and chose Vallejo at random to troll for victims, it makes no sense that he'd stick around town a good 40-45 minutes after his crime to make his call; he likely would have called immediately from the nearest phone and then escaped on the freeway.

There are a number of possibilities, but I'm leaning towards Z being local unsub who called because he was unaware that his crime had already been discovered. Whether he lived or worked near the gas station is open to question.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   

Sean--Hello Ireland!--As I've posted before, I was in that phone booth in March, 69. We were coming to CA for the first time, and left Reno in the AM, bolted down I-80, and got off at the Vallejo exit. I was anxious to call my parents, as one could understand, so I was looking for a phone booth. This is the first one I came across.

To me it indicates that Z was familiar with the I-80 exits and very possibly had been there before. However, this still does not rule him out as being knowledgeable with the local streets. Both Springs Road and Tennessee St come west to that vicinity from Blue Rock Springs.---As far as the 40 minute gap, maybe Z pulled over to "Get his Rocks Off."
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:23 am:   

Thanks guys!...I don't think including suspects in this type of conversation is a good idea, that's not what this is about. I'm just seeing if we can break this down some and see what we can come up with, with respect to Z's knowledge/lack of,of the area.
I'm drawn more to the idea that the call was planned and therefore, (local or non-resident)Z would have known exactly where police headquarters was. The idea that a stranger would drive around town and just happen to call from so close to the station seems unlikely.
How do you guys comepare it to LB?
In both instances we appear to have time unaccounted for, which seems to be the most interesting aspect of these calls.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:38 am:   

At LB, the unaccounted for time might be explained by Z driving north along Knoxville Road to Pope Valley, Angwin and Deer Park back to Silverado Trail, then on to Napa. It's about 45 miles as I recall, and it took me 65 minutes to drive it the first time I checked it out. Z's phone call occurred (presumably) 70 minutes after he wrote on Hartnell's car door, so that would appear to be a likely possibility.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   

I would tend to agree with that scenario Ed.
What I wondered is, according to the reports Bryan and/or Cecilia began shouting out not long after Z left.That time of day and given the area I imagine sound would carry a ways. It might be that Z heard this or saw the boat before he made it all the way back up the hill.He may have assumed (whether this scenario is corrert or not) one way or another that any approach by LE would come from the Napa direction and didn't want to risk going back in that direction.
Of course if your scenario is correct it begs the question as to why he didn't call from some other town. Either way I think it strengthens the idea that these calls were planned and he probably knew where he intended to make these calls from.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   

Had he escaped in the direction I suggested, the only two places he could have called from before arriving in Napa was either Angwin or Deer Park; he could have called from any number of towns, such as Calistoga, St. Helena, Rutherford, Oakville or Yountville, but that would necessitate having to drive across the valley to Highway 29 to get to any of those places (one can get to Calistoga along the Trail, however). Granted, it's not that far, but they are small today, and even smaller 37 years ago. Perhaps Z preferred the anonymity of a larger city like Napa, where he'd be far less likely to be seen making his call.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:56 pm:   

What you guys are bringing out is interesting. Z didn't head north or east to make his phone calls. ie, he didn't go to Davis or Antioch, he stayed with a southern connection that would indicate he was tied in with the population centers of the Bay area. As far as LB, perhaps he was afraid to make a long distance call, lest he be tracked easier.

Or maybe he only had a couple of dimes in his pocket!
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 4:43 am:   

Ed,
Dare I ask what you think of Graysmith's comments regarding the call at Napa ?They are probably biased at least,I don't know.
It's not an attempt to link suspects (at least on my part)but it's all I have to go on.
Are his comments any way fair?

He says (page 76 of his first book) that the Napa one way street system was awkward. He has Z taken a right on First street and going until he came to the Napa P.D, then taken another right onto Main. Afterward he suggests that Z had to take Soscol Avenue back to the 121(which became highway 29) and since he couldn't go back in the direction of the lake, had to have been heading South to Vallejo or beyond.
This he also suggests is reason to believe Z was familiar with Napa.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 4:50 am:   

Forgot....Along the same lines as I asked about the call in Vallejo.
Would this exact location have been a convenient stop for Z?
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 1:25 am:   

Perhaps Z had no phone of his own, wherever his residence then was? Maybe a student or a guy who just moved into some place, or lived with a roommate (or wife) who would hear him making calls...hence, his need for payphones.

Such a person, if living in either Vallejo or Napa, might know the location of many local phone booths. If Z were not a local - say a truck driver - it would seem more likely that by the expiration of 40 minutes, he'd be at a truck stop somewhere along a highway using their phone...
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 12:31 am:   

Z wouldn't have had to be a local to know the locations of telephone booths if he worked as a pay phone coin collector for Pacific Bell.
Working a route of pay phones would also give him an inside knowlege of phones that are used frequently and those that are used less frequently. Often the entire coin box is retrieved and automatically seals itself when removed from the phone safe chamber and a new box would be installed. The coin collector would know based on the heavyness of each box how often the phone was used and also boxes that were used more frequently he would have to empty more often than others on his route so it would give that person a wealth of information on pay phone usage.
Coin collectors would have a large set of keys and use a different key for each phone they emptied on their jobs. There has always been very few instances of people being able to pick a phone coin lock on the pay phones because they have used a 9-10 lever lock that would require a criminal to have sophisticated tools, knowlege and time to pick open.
You could say they are virtually crack proof.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 1:50 am:   

Sean, Yellow Book's arguments make no sense there. Not having lived here, he is undoubtedly unaware that the traffic on the one way streets in that general area were, from what I understand, actually going in the opposite direction to what they are today.

Plus, there are more than just the 2 directions he claims (either to LB or to Vallejo); one could go north towards Yountville/Oakville/ Rutherford/St. Helena/Calistoga/Middletown and beyond along Highway 29 or Silverado Trail, or one could head west to Sonoma or Santa Rosa from Napa along Highway 12 or to Santa Rosa from Calistoga.

However, even heading south does not automatically take one to Vallejo. Before one gets there, one arrives at Jameson Canyon Road (Highway 12) and can take that east towards I-80 East and Fairfield/Vacaville/Sacramento, or I-80 West to Vallejo, Berkeley and SF.

That means that heading south from Napa would not take Z only to Vallejo.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 3:55 am:   

Thanks Ed!...Vallejo as a destination wasn't really the point. I just wondered, given the one way system (whichever way it went)if it could be deduced that Z would have had to go out of his way to get to this particular phone (assuming he was heading south to whatever destination).
A comparison, if you like, to what he did after BRS..is he heading for phones placed near to police stations or are these just available.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 4:31 am:   

There's no way to tell for certain which way he went, but whether he took the northern route through Pope Valley, Angwin and Deer Park to Silverado Trail south to Napa, or if he took Monticello Road back to Napa, he still would have ended up on the Trail, which is Highway 121 and a major thoroughfare. Today, 1st and 3rd Streets will take you west across the Napa River and onto Main Street, and a right turn from either will get you to where the phone booth used to be. I imagine it was pretty similar, if not the same, in 1969.

Considering it took Z 70 minutes to place his call after leaving LB, and since I've demonstrated it takes roughly 65 minutes to take the northern route, I'd suggest Z went that way. While heading south out of Napa, he likely made a right on 1st, drove past 5 streets and the railroad tracks, made a right on Main, drove 1 blocks north just past Pearl to the car wash, and made his call. Afterwards, he could have been out of town in 5 minutes (the State Hospital, which is at the edge of town, is only about 2 miles from the phone booth).

It really wasn't out of Z's way to get there, but one has to wonder why, if he was driving south on the Trail, did he not stop at one of the many gas stations to make his call but instead chose a car wash that was farther into town? There had to have been phone booths there (I'd be surprised if there were none), so why pass those by and search for another one? I'm wondering now just how familiar Z was with Napa; I'm willing to bet he knew precisely where that phone booth was because he'd been to the car wash before. And if he wanted to call near the police station, he was taking a chance driving around looking for an opportune phone booth unless it was just coincidence. Either that, or it was preplanned and he had chosen the booth because of it's proximity to NPD before driving to LB.

It's likely the latter because Z passed up several phone booths beore actually making his call. And as I've pointed out before, that location is a few blocks south of St. John's Catholic School, which wouldn't mean much except that when Z called VPD on 7-5-1969, he specified a starting point one mile west of BRS, which just so happens to be St. John's Mine Road...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   

Tennesee Street and Springs Road were both 2 way streets in 1969. Vallejo didn't have many, if any, one way streets as I recall.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   

I just timed it 45 minutes ago, and from the phone booth south on Main, left on Third across the bridge and right on Soscol, it took me (with more traffic lights than existed in 1969, and far more traffic to boot) 6 minutes to drive to the State Hospital, which is 1.75 miles away. On a Saturday evening, Z must have been out of town in less time than that, but the fact remains that he passed several phone booths along Silverado Trail (assuming he went that way) and chose the one at the Napa Car Wash instead. The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to believe it was chosen beforehand and not randomly as he was escaping the scene of the crime.

So, getting back on topic (Tuolumne & Springs Road), if Z had preplanned the phone call to NPD and chose the phone booth beforehand, then it's entirely possible that he did the same with BRS, ie, chose the location beforehand. However, it's also possible that he decided after BRS to call VPD to report his crime, that he found it exciting and intended to do so again after his next crime. So, an afterthought to one crime was incorporated as a signature element in the next. And, there was no reason to call SFPD after murdering Stine, since he knew within minutes of leaving the cab that his crime had been discovered and reported; had he not been seen and gotten away, I am of the opinion that he would definitely have called SFPD at the earliest possible moment to report his crime as he had done twice before.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   

I just had a thougt, maybe he used the phone booth by the car wash because he had just finished washing his car! Tires could be still be matched to tracks but wahing out any dirt from the treads would still have been smart. Also, if a car is dirty enough, washing can change the appearance. If he thought there was the slightest chance his car was spotted change the appearance what you can. Again, he may have known of the car wash and planned it. Just food for thought I had not heard before.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 12:33 am:   

Sean: I timed it tonight coming back from the gym, and went from BRS along Columbus Parkway to Tennessee Street, made a right, continued on to Tuolumne, made a left, and headed to Springs. Total elapsed time was 7 minutes and 35 seconds (that's with traffic lights and a stop sign or two, some of which may not have been there in 1969). Z shot Ferrin & Mageau around midnight, and assuming it was just prior, we have approximately 35 minutes unaccounted for.

BTW, eastbound traffic on Columbus Parkway is detoured from 7-1-2006 to 1-31-2007. Looks like they're doing some major roadwork there...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 1:01 am:   

Maybe he cruised around looking for someone else to kill.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 1:36 am:   

Or, as Yellow Book suggested, maybe he lived in Vallejo, drove home, didn't hear sirens and assumed his crime had not yet been discovered, so he called VPD to take credit (Zodiac, p. 293). Yellow Book also notes the 30 minute discrepancy (p. 292), so his theory in this instance may be right...
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 7:23 am:   

For want of a better place...

I found a memorial for John Zeltin, one of the names in Darlene's phone book. He died in 2005, and had been a pastor in many different places. The fact that they had a memorial service in Vallejo makes me believe that it's the same person. He was born in 1902, which would tend to make him a little too old to be Zodiac, but I can't find out if he had any children. The connection to this thread- Darlene had his address on Tuolumne, plus, of course, the Z in his name.

I couldn't get it to link here because of the PDF format, but just google "John Zeltin" and it pops up pretty quick.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   

I researched this on the web a while back. I seem to recall that he had a son with the same name--Jr.--

I think it important that Dee had his name in her address book. He may have been one of her confidantes.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 11:44 am:   

That's interesting, VD, wonder if we can follow up on this.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 7:05 pm:   

Thanks Warren, I'll get right on it!

I think Ed has some info on this also.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 11:08 pm:   

Following up on the phone booth at the Napa Car Wash, if Z made a right from Silverado Trail onto 1st Street and another right onto Main, he could have been at the phone booth in less than 2 minutes (took me 1:45 tonight on the way back from work), and the distance is roughly 0.7 miles from the Trail. Afterwards, all he had to do was make a right on Clinton, go 2 blocks and make another right on Soscol, and he'd be out of Napa in less than 5 minutes.

So, while the first call after BRS may have been an afterthought, I suspect the second after LB was planned either by Z choosing the location beforehand, or because he was familiar enough with Napa and already knew where the phone booth was...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:02 am:   

They seem to have eliminated the Zeltin info from the web!----What I remember from 1 year ago was that the elder Zeltin preached at the Lutheran Churches in Napa, Vallejo, and Sacramento areas. He had a son, first and last name started with Z. I will keep looking.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 11:30 pm:   

I timed the drive from the phone booth to the State Hospital again tonight, and it took 3:37, much less than the 6 minutes I got the other day. Factoring in some traffic, 4 minutes to escape Napa after making his phone call to NPD sounds reasonable.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   

I wonder if these crimes had anything to do with the police, fire department strike in Vallejo in 69? It could have been some wannabe familiar with Vallejo and Napa, trying to make a mockery of the police and emergency officials.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:27 pm:   

Ed, when you have time go down town to the building dept and take a look at the sites map for Silverado trail in 1969. I do not remember seeing gas stations or phone booths on the trail going north towards Lake B. Once I got past the Old Adobe Hut, it was like a country road with nothing for many miles. If there was a phone booth on the trail,it would be pretty bold for him to to stop there and make a call. If he didn't know Napa, he could have driven around for a while looking for a phone booth that he could park his car close to, in case he needed to leave in a hurry. He could have gone to his apt or home, changed his bloody clothes, then made the call. If that is the case he lived in the area or close by. 4 min from the phone booth area to the State Hospital, is why you get speeding tickets ! That is fast even without stop lights and other cars on the road.

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