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Bargle
Username: Bargle

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

While rereading the chapter on the old kidnapping case of Evelyn Hartley (1953) in "Getting Away with Murder", something caught my eye that I had forgotten about. There was a suspect in the Hartley abduction that was eliminated after it was learned that he had been in Deer Lodge Prison at the time of the abduction. Searching for more info on this I also found that serial killer Carl Panzram had been imprisoned at Deer Lodge at one point.
Many have thought that Z was a reader of true crime stories. This gives two possible crime stories that Z could have read about and gleaned the name Deer Lodge from. He didn't necessarily have to be connected to or knowledgeable about Montana to have learned of it.
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 5:44 am:   

Good point, Bargle, and one I support as believing Z was an avid reader. I also believe he may have took some cues from the Texarkana phantom by the same means-- detective stories.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 7:21 pm:   

A likely reader of comic books as a boy, he graduated to the "true detective" magazines as an adult, especially after he began to identify with the villians more than the heroes. This is a good idea Bargle and Breakout. I don't have proof the true crime magazines of the time ran stories about the Texarkana phantom or the other cases you mention but it is highly likely they did. The perfect place for Z to search for inspiration.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 1:57 pm:   

This should be linked from the "Possible Zodiac Influences" thread! Z's reference to "Deer Lodge Prison" hasn't previously been linked to media exposure like this, at least that I've seen. It makes perfect sense, since he pulled so much from Most Dangerous Game, etc. As is mentioned elsewhere, he probably was inspired by Texarkana's murders too.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 2:45 pm:   

There is a Deer Lodge in TN.This the only city with that name in the US,except the one in MT.FYI

There is a Deer Lodge in Canada.

Tom has been deputized for Deer Lodge prison.Hopefully,he will show us a photo of his badge!

Davidmm,
Z never uses the term," The most Dangerous Game."In his cipher he says, '...man is the most dangerous animal of all to kill...'This could be from the book Dianetics where Ron Hubbard says the exact same thing twice!
I would choose Hubbard over Connell for the expression.
Now,the whole Zaroff/Ivan scenerio is another issue.

I am not trying to correct you,just FYI stuff.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 4:48 pm:   

There is a small hamlet in Napa county, near Lake Berryessa called Deer Park. My thoughts keep wandering there.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   

Cool reference, Howard! I had no idea of the Dianetics quote! Of course ALA mentioned "The Most Dangerous Game" as his favorite book, while being interviewed, but that is likely to be more of his posing.
You should add that Dianetics quote to the "Possible Zodiac Influcences" thread!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 3:22 pm:   

I don't believe the expression was "man is the most dangerous animal of all to kill." I think it was, "man is the most dangerous animal of all. To kill ...." A subtle difference, once you add the punctuation.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 4:11 pm:   

Do we know for sure that Zodiac actually mentioned Deer Lodge, Montana specifically? It would be an interesting reference but reading through Hartnell's bedside interview the following day with Sgt. John Robertson of Napa Co. Sheriff's Dept., I have to wonder.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview2.htm l

Hartnell: And he (Zodiac) says "Nah, times running short", he says, "cause I just got out of..."- some prison in Montana, I don't know what the name of it is. Feathers? Do you know what the name of it is? I'll see if it sounds familiar. Fern or Feathers? It's some double name like Fern Lock or something..."

JR: "It's Lodge.."

Hartnell: Oh Yeah, yeah, Lodge. At least we know we're together on that.

JR: Mountain Lodge Prison, or something of that nature...


It almost sounds like the name was suggested to Hartnell and other references say Z claimed to be an escaped inmate from Colorado.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/ShepardHartnell.html

Anyone?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   

He volunteered that it was some prison in Montana, which is what he claims Zodiac said, then said it sounded like "Lock," which is close enough to "Lodge," then got a bit confused as to the first part of it. The only prison in Montana whose name ends in "Lodge," so far as I know, would be Deer Lodge. I'm inclined to think it was indeed Deer Lodge.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 6:06 pm:   

Doug,
There is no punctuation in the 408.
Anyway my point was that 408 expression is very MUCH closer to Hubbard's statement than Connell's or The Most Dangerous Game.

We agree it was probably Deer lodge.

How is your book coming along?

Dave,
An interesting observation about Deer Park.

Like most everything else in the case there is a tad of contraversy on this issue.

Deer Lodge prison was in the US news accounts(I checked the US news archives)in 1969.
Z or anyone could have read about the incidences of rebellion that transpired there.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 7:56 pm:   

I don't disagree- just found Hartnell's inability to recall and the sergeant's prompting the day after noteworthy. The victim page for Shepard and Hartnell, however, still indicates that Z claimed to be an escapee from a Colorado prison.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 8:02 pm:   

I believe White was the one who reported that Hartnell said that Z said it, and it was actually an ex-con from Colorado, was it not? I suspect a faulty memory and some embellishment of the facts is responsible for the Colorado claim...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 9:19 pm:   

Howard, I finished the book a couple of months ago. I'm in the process now of trying to find a publisher.

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