The Shirt Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Zodiackiller.com Message Board » Paul Stine » The Shirt « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   

If cable TV has taught me anything, it's that these days fingerprints can be lifted from cloth surfaces. Yes, we have the technology.

Zodiac handled Stine's shirt, apparently without gloves.

2+2=4. Will SFPD do the math? Have they already?

Gavin? Anyone?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 12:07 am:   

If nothing else they ought to have bloody prints directly visible on the cloth.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   

And maybe sweat, saliva, or cigarette ashes from Z.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

I saw at least one show where they pulled a fingerprint off a bedsheet and actually convicted a killer based on that. I also recently saw a show where a cold case was occasionally looked at, and even though they had a print and ran it, they never got a hit. One day, the guy who ran the print thought that maybe a slight rotation might make all the difference, since what was lifted from the crime scene may not have been oriented precisely the same way as the print in the database (assuming the perp had been arrested on another charge and printed). The print was rotated slightly, and they got a hit! Turned out the killer was in jail, and was due to be released. They nailed the bastard for that old murder and now he'll never get out...

So... I'm wondering if SFPD has ever done that with the partials/prints they got from the letters and/or Stine's cab??? Maybe Z is sitting in prison on another charge and his prints are actually on file...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 3:25 pm:   

It was never stated, to my knowledge, that the swatches of Stine's shirt included in the Z letters had bloody prints visible on them. That may be why the remainder of the shirt vanished; perhaps Z also felt he could only safely use one or two little pieces of it.

Tom - while we may have the technology to lift prints from cloth, isn't the same general rule still applicable to them: prints must be fresh - no more than a week old - or they vanish? The print that nailed the perp in Ed's story must have been lifted from the cloth soon after the crime, that is, quite some time before the perp started his jail term for the unrelated crime.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 11:36 pm:   

J Eric: as I recall, that is correct: the print was lifted fairly soon after the crime was committed with new (and presumably) experimental technology. It worked and they nailed the killer.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 10:46 am:   

Correct me if i'm wrong. The piece's of shirt would fall under the jurisdiction of SFPD, they close the case and hand their evidence over to the DOJ. Lets say one of the remaining police departments want to follow through with Tom's idea, could they get their hands on the pieces of shirt?

Can anyone clarify the status of the zodiac investigation as per the remaining police departments? Are they still interested in solving the case or are they trying to wash their hands of it?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 6:15 pm:   

I don't believe VPD is too interested in solving it at this point. NSD still has someone assigned to it from what I understand, but, being a cold case, it's investigated basically if they have spare time.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 11:00 am:   

Thanks Ed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   

stineshirt
C:\mysettings\mydocuments\stineshirt.jpg
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   

Just some observations. The paper bag that the shirt was apparently carried in is visable to the right of the autopsy table, in the sink with the water running on it.----Armstrong is smoking a cigarette.----There is a bloated body on the back autopsy table, so there were other witnesses there before and after this photo.

The cut of the shirt piece appears to be too symetrical to have been torn off.

Toschi presents a dashing image!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:00 pm:   

In the spirit of "Anything Vallejo Dave can do, I can do better," here are a couple of high-resolution scans of the shirt:

Shirt 1 (562KB/JPG) | Shirt 2 (353 KB/JPG)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   

Definitely torn.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:59 am:   

Tom, lol. You make a good case for tearing.

You can't see the whole picture I posted because it is cropped on the right. That bag on the top sink to the right presumadley carried Stine's shirt. There appears to be water running on it, and possible evidence(hair-blood) going down the drain.---That may be Stine's trip ticket on table.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:05 am:   

The shirt appears to be torn. At first I wondered whether or not a physically torn shirt would tell us anything about the Zodiac's strength. After studying the photos again, Dave's and especially the high-res, the shirt appears rather thin and a man of average strength would have been able to tear it, hence it doesn't say much.

If the Zodiac had planned all along to tear the shirt off of any random cab driver, suppose a different cab pulls up and the driver is wearing a very thick shirt of a tough-to-tear material? What then? In examining the definite Zodiac crimes, I've been looking for indications of what Zodiac's physical strength may have been. So far the only "clue" I can think of is Stine's shirt and the tearing of it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 7:48 pm:   

George, you make an excellent observation. Suppose Z hailed a cab with a driver that had a thick shirt on, like a Woolrich or something!-----This sounds like pre meditation in the selection of the cab, and the victim!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   

A few questions for everyone:

Why did Z apparently maintain portions of Stine's shirt and NOT include them to authenticate later letters?

If he did maintain portions of the shirt, to what end?

Where is the remaining shirt today?

This is really the only piece of evidence that I'm aware of that someone could produce to identify Z posthumously, no? Even Z's Lake Berryessa costume could be reproduced and there was only one eyewitness to even say what it looked like.

To me, this is one of the few hopeful sign that Z will ever be identified.

Anyone?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 5:56 pm:   

No need of even taking the shirt if he already had Stine's wallet and the cab car keys.
Those are still missing too, so the missing section of shirt is not the only evidence that only Z would have had.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:38 pm:   

Right you are about the wallet and cab keys, Johno. I was thinking the keys and wallet itself would not necessarily be identifiable but I'm sure there would be identifying info. in the wallet.

I honestly find his taking the wallet & keys stranger than the shirt. The shirt may have been taken for future communication purposes but he was not otherwise known to collect trophies.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 2:03 am:   

Consider the possibility that he might have faked a robbery and actually forced Stine to hand him the wallet and keys. That might explain how the barrel of the pistol would end up pressed right against Stine's head without resorting to scenarios like the one Graysmith proposed, where Zodiac is grabbing Stine in a headlock. This was his M.O. at Berryessa, and it's not illogical to think he might have repeated it at PH.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:06 am:   

The wallet and keys would, therefore, be incidental trophies and the shirt a more purposeful one. That scenario makes a lot of sense, Doug.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   

That's what I've concluded over the years: Z actually did rob Stine. It is illogical and nonsensical to assume that Z shot him, got out of the back seat then into the front, pulled the body over his lap, rifled through his pockets for his wallet, took the keys (why? Stine was dead and couldn't follow him), then pulled his shirt out and tore the tail off, knowing there was a possibility that he had been seen and cops might be on the way (he was in a populated area after all and not in the middle of nowhere). It makes far more sense that Stine handed his wallet and car keys over, then Z plugged him. That not only gave him more time to get the shirt tail and leave the cab, but he would have escaped the crime scene faster (OK, he might have saved himself a few seconds only, but after murdering someone in a wealthy neighborhood, every second counts, and Z, as it turns out, was only 60 seconds ahead of the cops).

De, you're right, the wallet and car keys were incidental; Z was after Stine's shirt tail. That way, as I've been saying for a while now, he wouldn't have needed to write a followup letter with more facts to prove he was the killer, as he did 2 months before when Chief Stiltz demanded more proof. A bloody swatch was all that was needed to prove his culpability... and, in the offchance that he was actually arrested, it is unlikely that SFPD would have guessed that Z was actually the guy Napa and Vallejo were after, since he used a different gun and there was little physical evidence otherwise to connect him to LHR, BRS and LB.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:20 pm:   

Ed,

Any thoughts on why Z maintained/maintains a portion of the shirt? He wrote plenty of letters afterward, which could have been authenticated with a tiny swatch of bloody shirt, but chose to hold onto it instead. Why?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   

Deoxys, I'm not too sure that he did maintain it. He was a careful guy and might have thought it too risky to hang on to.

Another thought is that Zodiac, may have ditched the wallet and car keys while making his getaway. It might be interesting to go over his proposed escape route with a metal detector some day.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:05 pm:   

I'm betting it was easier to tear off a large portion of Stine's shirt rather than just a few small pieces; that way, he could later remove what he needed at his leisure. I would imagine that if that was the case, then Z retained the rest of the shirt because it already served its purpose: to prove he was a killer without having to write another letter with more details to prove it, and he only needed a few small pieces anyway. Maybe he thought about keeping the remainder in case he chose to write again post-1974.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:01 am:   

Doug.....If he ditched the wallet and keys, he probably did it between the time the cops stopped him and he got in the park area (if he actually did go to the park).

The cops stopping him would have made him very anxious to get rid of evidence and he felt safe (somewhat) after he got in the park.

That should have been a very large area to search. Didn't the cops do that?, as far as we know?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:02 am:   

Doug.....If he ditched the wallet and keys, he probably did it between the time the cops stopped him and he got in the park area (if he actually did go to the park).

The cops stopping him would have made him very anxious to get rid of evidence and he felt safe (somewhat) after he got in the park.

That should not have been a very large area to search. Didn't the cops do that?, as far as we know?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   

Maybe Ed can take a metal detector along on his next trip to the area. He might look funny doing it but it's worth a shot.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   

According to the autopsy report, Zodiac did not take all of Stine's money, or keys. He left change on Stine and 7 keys, apparently taking only the cab ignition key.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   

Muskogee,

Does it say whether these keys were actually on a keychain? I can understand Z leaving the change but to spend time taking the ignition key off of a keychain would be odd indeed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:35 pm:   

Deoxys, it doesn't say, and I was wondering that myself. Generally, the property inventory refers to items found worn on the victim or in the victim's pockets. Since the ignition key would have been in the ignition, I imagine the other keys (mentioned in the autopsy report) were NOT with the ignition key, but rather in his pocket, or else they would have been left at the crime scene, rather than transported on the victim.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   

I'm puzzled about why just the ignition key. What sense does that make? Perhaps when Z had Stine's head in his lap, he was searching for a key to a locker or a post office box or similar. Might have something to do with the package, or another package. He wasn't looking for money, that's for sure.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:39 pm:   

The keys in Stine's pocket were probably his own keys, for his home, car etc. The cab key was likely separate because the cab belonged to the company. I don't recall ever reading that Stine owned the cab.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:59 am:   

I've speculated about this situation in my autopsy review for Paul Stine, which will hopefully be posted on Howard's site before too long. If not, I'll post that section of my review.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:00 am:   

I've opined before that Z took the ignition key and Stine's wallet because he set the crime up to look like a robbery (in much the same way he set up LB to allay any fears about being murdered). That way, Stine was more likely to be compliant, believing Z only wanted his money; therefore, Z would have demanded his wallet and the key, so Stine couldn't follow him in the cab (not that he would since he'd be dead, but perhaps Stine was thinking that was why Z demanded the key as well).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 2:14 pm:   

I tend to agree with you, Ed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   

I agree with that scenario too Ed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:35 pm:   

It's the only one that makes sense to me, because why would Z waste precious time rifling through Stine's pocket for his wallet after he was dead? It'd be much easier for his victim to do it for him as well as hand over the key, and all Z had left to accomplish was taking the shirt tail as proof...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:05 pm:   

Me three...

The "I'm a bad guy but I won't hurt you if you do as I ask" schtick worked for Dennis Rader and countless other murderers and rapists. The ignition key could also be used as a trophy to confirm Z's identity, since it is presumably the only one that could be connected to Stine years later.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   

Could it? I bet the ignition it fits in is long gone... however, Stine's license is probably the only thing besides the remaining 120 square inches of shirt tail that can positively identify Z (assuming he still has them).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   

It could have at the time... I have no idea what became of Mr. Stine's cab.

The license and the bloody shirt both contain evidence of Stine's IDENTITY and would be important totems, IMO, for someone who has expressed interest in "collecting slaves in the afterlife". Z would have ultimate control of Mr. Stine's identity (in his own mind) to this day by maintaining these symbols of his identity.

The fact that Z MIGHT maintain these items in 2006 is one of the few things that gives me hope that he MIGHT eventually identify himself.

BTK broke an 26-year silence (well... 18 years...) by mailing Vicki Wegerle's driver's license to the local media in 2004- long after he was dead and buried by local media and law enforcement. Would Z do the same? I doubt it but at least he has the resources to do so...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:58 am:   

I do not agree with that scenario as most likely (though I don't dismiss it as impossible), based on the entrance wound. I've already hashed that out elsewhere on the message board, so I won't repeat myself.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:54 pm:   

De- you are right about your "Mights." Who knows, maybe if the movie draws heavy crowds and alot of media attention, the old man might find it hard to resist sending in some small relic~ sort of a "lion in winter" final adieu~ in order to relive some of that heady attention.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 2:03 pm:   

Can you give a link to your scenario, Muskogee?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 2:32 pm:   

Breakout: I really doubt it. Z saw what happened to Rader, why would he risk activating a cold case that LE doesn't appear to care about anymore and has had no new evidence for 32 years?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 6:16 pm:   

Hmmmm--Ed, I still agree with your scenario. I have not seen a better explanation on the board, despite all the wordiness and explanations.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   

Deoxys, it hasn't been posted, yet, but it will be on Howard's site: zodiacmurders.com, likely under the "Pertinent Information" link and then "Autopsy Interpretations".

Dave, all, here's a link from the archived message board:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ps/1145.html
I discuss this case, and Bill Baker, whose opinion is always quite enlightening, weighs in.

This thread is about Z's position in the cab, rather than our current issue at-hand, but it has some relevance, as I'll explain.

In this thread, Bill states, "...the tendency for Stine to have reflexively moved away from the sudden contact of the muzzle by moving his head." The main reason I don't think Stine knew he was about to be shot is because I would expect to see evidence of this reflexive movement at autopsy...the nearly perpendicular angle achieved by Zodiac is extremely unlikely on a "moving" or conscious person who would "reflexively" flinch. In fact, the only time I've seen similarly-angled shots has been when the victim was already dead/unconscious (a gang killing involving stabbing and shooting), asleep, or was surprised/ambushed. This is not to say Ed's scenario couldn't happen...I just think the odds are against it. I think Ed's is a very reasonable scenario regarding Z's behavior, but I can't resolve it with respect to the evidence.

If someone else with more experience than I have would like to add to this (Bill, where are you?!), I'd like to hear his thoughts, especially if I'm missing something in the forensic evidence that could support Ed's scenario.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   

Oh, regarding the shirt and the ignition key, my uncle (who I'm hoping will start posting here soon) made a suggestion when I was discussing Stine's autopsy with him recently.

He stated that he often has a difficult time "starting" a rip in fabric, even though it rips easily after it's "started". He always assumed Z carried a tool to "start" the rip in the shirt, but, when I told him that Z took the ignition key, but left 7 other keys on Stine's person, he suggested that Z used the ignition key to "start" the rip in the shirt and simply "pocketed" it when he was done using it.

I don't know how likely/unlikely that is, but I thought it was an interesting explanation for, perhaps, why Z took one key and not the others.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 8:02 am:   

Muskogee, I have to agree with something being used to start the ripping of the shirt. If he started on one layer of cotton he could do it, but if he started at the edge which is at least 3 layers thick,he would need something sharp to start it I would think. Tell your uncle we would love to have some new input from him.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:46 pm:   

Sandy, thanks! I'll pass on your message. He's been interested in the case since the yellowbook came out.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 5:00 pm:   

I agree; you'd have to get it started. It's yet another indication of the brazenness of this particular crime.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   

I had thought of the key myself but had dismissed it in my mind because I figured Zodiac would probably have some kind of a small knife with him at all times.
I also didn't know how rounded or sharp that key would have been. Either way it could have caused a rip and he's not going to bother wiping his prints from the key and then inserting it back in the ignition. He's just going to pocket it like you said if he used it for that purpose.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:02 am:   

Blood, caked thickly onto cloth, eventually falls away. Z did mention that he was "swamped out" one winter. If water had also gotten to the remnants of the shirt, it might have become moldy as well. And thus discarded.

Seagull is right about the cab key. When I drove, I would get a single key for the cab (it may have had a number tag on the ring too).

Perhaps Z gave Stine that same story about him being an escaped convict from Deer Lodge, he needed the key to the car and some money, blah blah blah, just like at Lake Berryessa. I wouldn't put it past Z to be armed in the cab with BOTH a gun and a knife, again like at LB. I think it more likely he used his knife to start ripping the shirt.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:20 pm:   

Anyone whacked enough to keep a swatch of bloody shirt as a trophy wouldn't throw it out if it got moldy.

Has anyone pieced the shirt and all the swatches back together to see how much is missing, and presumed to be in Z's possession? I've seen a photo holding up one swatch to the shirt, but there were several pieces sent.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   

There were 3 swatches that we know of, and there is apparently some 120 square inches still left (that's a pretty hefty piece, 10x12 inches or similar dimensions). I'm not certain it was a trophy, since Z did not demonstrate any interest in trophies during the commission of his previous 3 crimes. I've opined before that he took it to prove he was the killer of Stine so he wouldn't have to bother with recalling and writing more details to send to SFPD to prove it, as he did with Chief Stiltz in Vallejo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   

But why not use the remaining large piece to authenticate the remainder of his letters?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 2:41 pm:   

Assuming Z was going to continue using 3"x5" swatches, there would be enough left for only 8 more pieces... and perhaps he felt he had used enough authentication already and was saving it for a possible later comeback that never happened. Or maybe he wanted to keep it for the memories...

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous"
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration