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Jim_nelson
Username: Jim_nelson

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   

Sandra Betts sent a letter to Howard Davis concerning the police artist who made the drawing that is on the wanted poster made after the Stine murder and the updating of that drawing. It is posted at www.zodiacmurders.com.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:33 am:   

I personally don't doubt Sandy's story for a minute.(That she was told this story)The only question that remains is to find who she had spoken to.I know this was questioned before and while I find it unlikely that she spoke to someone who would deliberately mislead her, questions will remain.
Here again though we see the benefit of having a persons own words and being able to put them into context.I find that it adds to Sandy's claims in this instance, in that, the person she spoke to was able to say that Fouke and Zelms (as they have claimed themselves)didn't have a huge problem with the original sketch, but ammended it along the lines that it was ammended.
The question will remain open, however, it's an indication I believe, that the person she spoke to
had legitimate information and was qualified to speak.Which of course sets him apart for just "any" employee, who may have picked up the phone.
Problem is we have Fouke's own words(a first hand witness) that refutes these claims.As all this began with the claims of Zelm's wife, we should really have her own words also.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   

I have never once doubted anything Sandy has ever posted here or told me in person, but what we don't know is who it was she spoke to at SFPD. Since this was in 1990, that horrendous yellow book had already been out for 4 years, and whoever she spoke to had plenty of time in which to read and quote from it. Another thing to consider is that 20 years had passed since Stine was murdered; what is the likelihood that the artist was not only still with SFPD 2 decades later (wouldn't he have retired some years before?), and what is the likelihood that he just happened to pick up the phone when she called?

Once again, I do not doubt a thing Sandy has ever said. I believe her story 100%. The problem I have is with the guy she spoke to; he was just a voice at the other end of a phone line making a claim, and we have absolutely no means of verifying if he was the actual sketch artist or not, other than finding out the artist's name (according to Mike R, his name was Gonzalez IIRC) and when he actually left SFPD.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:14 pm:   

Hi-

Officer Fouke was very clear on the point that he did not have anything to do with the sketches. (And I am not going to ask him to repeat himself yet again in response to this statement. He is "on the record" with me and Jim already.) Also, the Stine eyewitnesses explained to Jim just how and why the second sketch was made; it had nothing to do with the officers that I know of. I do not believe that Sandy was told the truth by the person she talked to.

I wonder if the artist was even on the force in 1990. I don't think that he was. In fact, I think he left SFPD shortly after the Z sketch was made. If you read the book on the Zebra murders, he had been replaced by another artist by the time of those crimes.

Mike
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:38 pm:   

That would have been 1974 then. It was also reported in the Chronicle that the teens did the second sketch, and that was confirmed by them in a recent interview with Jim Dean, was it not?
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:47 pm:   

Hi Ed-

They told Jim how and why the second sketch was done, and their explanation makes sense. Fouke has never indicated to us in any way that he had anything to do with these sketches. In fact, his department's failure to involve him in the sketches is one of the great mysteries and, I believe, yet another example of incompetence on the part of the people running the investigation.

Mike
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   

Hi Mike-

Isn't it odd that Fouke, one of the few people to eyeball a person in the neighborhood at the time of the murder, was not asked to provide input on the sketches? You'd think he would have volunteered his input. It was his job, after all.

Dave**
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   

Yes it is quite odd. Armstrong and Toschi are to blame for that. Fouke wrote that memo, so he did what he could to help clear matters up.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   

Hi Dave-

As Ed said, none of this was Fouke's fault. He was a soldier who simply did what the generals told him to do. They just did not tell him to sit with a sketch artist..

Mike
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:58 am:   

Mike,
Do you not understand that when people here are trying to consider these issues they need the full facts or as much as the witnesses are able to supply?
Now something you said originally, goes to the heart of this matter for me. I don't know if it was your failure (in the manner you introduced it, or that you haven't challenged Fouke on it) or Fouke's failure to answer the question.
You suggested that when Fouke came forward with the information of Z heading into a private residence (as opposed to going north on Maple)that it more or less amounted to a "deathbed confession". The clear implication was that Fouke withheld this information up to a point and thinking he might not make it, decided to clear his conscience. Is that not a fair interpretation?If that's the case, then Fouke lied or purposely withheld information that could have been critical to the investigation and or the search at that time.
Can you clarify this for us?
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 1:37 pm:   

Hi-

What I meant is that when he spoke to ABC, he was facing life-threatening surgery in 2002. The way it was put to me is that he told ABC that he was not sure that he'd make it out of the operating room, from what he was told by doctors. Therefore, in my opinion, he had no reason to save face and that it was my hope that whatever he said would be the unvarnished truth.

I believe it was.

Mike
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   

From what I remember, it was alleged by Mike's contact that Fouke saw Z walking into Mr X's front yard, but that is not what really happened. We know that Fouke saw Z walk up some steps towards that garden terrace/courtyard at the northeast corner of Jackson and Maple, which was either 3712 or 3728 Jackson. Looks like the story somehow got twisted in the telling between Fouke and the contact, and Mike simply reported what he was told.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   

Hi Ed-

I did not speak directly to Harry Phillips about the Fouke story when he obtained it (which I think was in 2001, not 2002). Phillips spoke to a friend of mine (who is now deceased) and my friend and Harry had a miscommunication the result of which was that my friend thought the Z had walked into X's property after the Fouke sighting. That is NOT the case and never was something that Fouke said to ABC. I corrected my error and will state again that Fouke did NOT see Z in X's yard. Z disappeared about a block away from that home on the steps going into someone else's property.

Mike
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   

I knew it was something along those lines. Thanks for setting the record straight, Mike!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   

Mike r, I just read the Zelms report,it told me that the poi was seen walking East on Jackson st.then going north on Maple towards the park. Was he seen going towards a residence on Maple ? I have been checking out the names of people who lived on Jackson st in 69. This gives me some more busy work !

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