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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 8:32 am:   

We had a good discussion going on this on the hacked board. Let's continue.

Stine started work between 9 and 9:15 pm, and approximately 45 minutes later he was dead, with traces of alcohol in his system. He supposedly was waiting for fares at Mason and Geary, in front of the St. Francis Hotel. Prior to picking up Z, he picked up a package and delivered it to the airport, then came back to Mason and Geary and allegedly got Z as a fare, then proceeded to Presidio Heights. I invite comments and questions concerning this scenario.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 10:00 am:   

Here is where he was waiting, in front of the St. Francis. Geary is just to the bottom left.
stinespotC:\mysettings\mydocuments\stinespot.jpg
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 10:05 am:   

Here he is 45 minutes later, at Washington and Cherry.
stine2C:\mysettings\mydocuments\stine2.jpg
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 7:53 pm:   

Is that timeline feasible?, Where did he go to pick up the package? Could he have gotten to SFO and back within the time frame, pick up Z, then head out to Presidio Heights and his death? What was the package, and where did Stine pick it up?

Notice his watch. It looks like a timex from a cheap discount store---definitely not a Zodiac watch!
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 12:16 pm:   

What are you heading with this Dave? Help me out, what relevance is there to what was in the package and where he picked it up?

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   

I'm just inviting opinion. Maybe Stine was killed for what was in the package. Did he have a few beers around Union Square, before going on duty?-----My main concern is the timeline. I find it very compact as is, and hard to believe that he did all this in 45 minutes.

And to you ALA people, did Stine pick up ALA outside the showing of HAIR, then transport him to the Allen Arms Apartments?--LOL}
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   

And to all you Hair people, Hair opened in London on Sept. 27, 1968. LB was one year anniversary.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   

"Maybe Stine was killed for what was in the package." Maybe, but I doubt it. That would make Z's motive robbery. <shrug>

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   

Hey ET, what was Z's motive?

That's nice Seagull, but we're talking about PH, not LB.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:54 am:   

Dave,

My information on Z's killing is limited. I still consider myself a virgin when it comes to knowing the in's and outs of his crimes. I have read a few books, watched a few TV specials and read various posts on this board. My guess on Z's motive for his killings is Z had the same motive as any degranged psychopath seriel killer. Like I said, my information is limited but I don't remember reading anything about Z taking any items of value from his victims. If he did, I would guess it was a theft of "oh, while I'm here I'll take this" and not, "I'm going to kill that guy for his wallet". Therefore, a logical conclusion (I feel) is Z didn't kill Stine for any package he might have.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   

One would think the 3 teen witnesses and Fouke would have noted Z carrying a package (or anything else, for that matter) with him as he left the crime scene.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:25 pm:   

My original thought with the package was with the timeline, not that Z murdered Stine over it. Stine signed on, picked up a package, went to SFO I presume to drop it off, and possibly pick up a return fare. He came back to Union Square and got Z as a fare, then went out to PH and met his demise. To me, it's stretching it a bit that this all happened in 45 minutes.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:32 am:   

Well, it apparently did.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:26 pm:   

I hope this is not off thread.

For some reason, I keep thinking this murder was NOT premeditated as to Z parking his car somewhere near the Park, then walking to Mason&Geary st, hailing a cab to murder the driver.

This murder was sloppy, relaxed, and not the regular M.O.

Heres how I see it, Scenario 1: Z is out partying at a bar near M&G st with a friend who is driving, the friend hooks up with a girl, Z's pissed but takes the hint to get lost. Zodiac, who has a hatred for women ( goes into a "FRENZY" when stabbing CS at LB) has just been dupped by one when his friend just chose to be with a girl over him. He then hails Mr. Stines cab to go back to his friends house to retrieve his own car. Along the way Stine says the wrong thing and Z a person who normaly carries a gun most of the time, decides his fate. He Calmly gets out wipes down the cab, collects the shirt, wallet and keys and walks down Cherry st. Why so Calm? He's drunk. (Z's hands were shaking at LB, and even states "I'm getting nervous").

Questions:
Was there a bar near M&G st. back in 69?

Was the Presidio park an active working Military post in 69?

Well it's late and i have to get up in the morning, I'll do scenario 2 another time.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:09 am:   

Hawk,

Maybe Stine's murder wasn't premeditated. Yet, I leaning toward it was for the simple fact Z took the shirt. That is something that smells of forthought. Like, Z wanted to prove he could kill a guy, one on one, and needed to prove it was him that did the killing so taking the victim's shirt was proof.

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:30 am:   

Hawk, there were bars all around that area in 69, including one in the St. Francis. I was in a piano bar on lower Mason, closer to Market St.

The Presidio was an active military post at that time. Active Duty, Reserves, Prisoners, and Letterman was in full operation.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 9:24 am:   

Etphoto, the shirts a good point.

V Dave, thanx for the info. I guess the bar question was a little stupid, hell, theres always a bar near by. lol

Dave you said Reserves, Is the Reserves and National Guard one and the same?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 10:27 am:   

Hawk, the Guard and Reserve have the same meeting/training set up, but the Guard is run by the State and the Reserves are run by the Army/Navy/AF and the Feds.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:48 am:   

V dave, I find it odd that Z doesn't have a Crew Cut at BRS or LB, but at PH he does and excapes into an area occupied by the Military.

As I understand, you can join the National Gaurd at 30+ years,Right? Were there civilians working at the park/base at the time? What I'm getting at is: can you think of any scenario that could tie Zodiac to this Military post?

Another thing I find odd is that Nixon steps up bombing campaigns in north vietnam during Zodiacs hiatus.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   

Hawk,

Let me butt in. But wasn't that already looked at during the Stine investigation? The fact Z might be tied to the military. I seem to remember something about boots (maybe one of the other murders and not Stine). I'm sure there were and are civilians working at that base and probably 99% of the bases around the country.

As for Nixon. Huh??? Are you claiming Nixon was trying to cover something (other than the obvisious thing he covered up later on) up?

ET
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   

Et, Z was wearing Wing Walker military boots at LB. Also, what I meant to say is that during the increase in the Bombing of north Vietnam Zodiac stops writing, so was he in the military and got called to go overseas.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   

Hawk,

I see. Increase in bombing doesn't neccessary mean increase in the number of military personnel. So, if Z was called to duty, I doubt it was because there was an increase in bombing.

I think Z being the military was something that was examined pretty close during the initial investigation. I don't ever remember seeing anything in writing that Z being in the military was ever ruled out. Could be.

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   

It has long been a premise of mine that Z was military, and I know I am in the minority. He may have been a recon vet from Viet Nam, and brought his skills back home. In his letters, he mentions covering up with dirt and letting ants attack, skinning alive, and slaves in afterlife. These tactics were used by our military and the opposition in VN.

Nixon was at the Presidio in 1970--why?--votes? Or maybe to check on Viet Nam planning policy. After all, he didn't go to Alameda or Travis!

If the authorities were serious about finding Z, and a military connection, all they would have to have done was check all fingerprints of military personnel at the Presidio as a start. The Presidio was a holding area, so to speak, for vets coming back from Nam, and before they were released back into regular society.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:15 pm:   

Dave,

If checking any latent of value recovered at a crime scene against rolled military 10 print cards of personnel stationed at the Presidio was simple, I'm sure it was done.

Although, as a second thought, when did the military start rolling prints of the enlisted? It was probably being done in the 60s and 70s since it would be a good way to confirm the identity of the dead.

Why do you think you're in the minority when it comes to thinking Z was in the military? History is litered with military personnel being arrested for violent crimes including murder/seriel killer. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Z had a military background.

ET
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   

Vallejo Dave,That time line is more than tight !S.F. airport would take longer than that round trip. Lets say that the killer knew Stine and the package belonged to the killer.As a friend Stine takes the package and the killer to the airport.On the way back the killer tells Stine what is in the package just to get a reaction like fear, say he says it is drugs, or a body part of someone he has killed.He uses a gun to have Stine tell the dispatcher that he is picking up a fare at Mason and Geary to throw the police off of the soon to be investigation.After all he can't let Stine live to repeat that story he told him !And the fare to and from the Airport would have been a lot to pay. He could have it both ways a killing and no fare.He took the wallet to make it look like a robbery and because he looked enough like Stine that the ID would help him to get in and out of Mexico with out much of a problem so he could get more drugs because the killer had a hispanic last name.Hispanics were checked more at the borders back then.He used the shirt to wipe down the cab because he knew he would have left prints.He didn't plan to send part of the shirt, but once the police saw him walking away down Jackson street. He just had to show off and rub their noses in their boo boo's by writing the letter and giving them the bloody shirt to verify it was him. After all he had sent other letters that were thought to be fakes.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   

Mason and Geary, lol. When I went on active duty in 1967 at FT. Dix, the first thing they did was cut my hair, take my fingerprints, and take my pic, then put it on an ID card. I still have this!----If they did it to me, they did it to Z.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   

hmmmm . . . I'm wondering Dave if you'r prints have ever been checked?

Tom. What is that Zodiac Tip Line number again? :-)

ET
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   

Finger prints were only checked against suspected military personel, so, therefore V Dave could still be the Zodiac. lolololololol
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   

ET, I can send you some of my hair, both cranial and pubic, if you'd like.

Sandy--good thoughts. I will get back to you.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:01 am:   

Sandy, you are right about the trip to the airport taking longer than 45 minutes, unless they were going to the Crissey Field airstrip! This package sure has a lot of mystery about it.

ET, about the military prints, a good place to start would be with the old 353rd PSYOPS, which had many SF State grad students in it, some of whom may have known Stine. We also had a lot of Intelligence and Recon vets transitioning out from Nam. You could even get my prints, lol. And, how about the MP Battalion based at Ft. Scott?
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   

Dave,

I'm curious if all the military print cards have been classified? If you're not aware, the FBI has a standard fingerprint classification system that - I believe - ALL departments across the country use. Since AFIS has come aboard, the classification system has pretty much gone by the way side. (I took a classification course about 3 years ago and I was told then it was being done away with because of AFIS). The reason for the classification system was for locating prints easier. Making it (still very difficult) faster to find the owner of a latent print that that might have been developed at a crime scene. If those military print cards were never classified using the FBI's classification system then the latents recovered from the Stine murder were probably never check aginst the all the prints kept by the military . Now, I'm sure the SF Police Department probably had guys work months if not years working on the developed latents of value and a military connection. Yet, if the military cards were never classified someone (Z obvisiously) could have been over looked. Although, it would be my guess those fingerprint cards were probably classified using the FBI's classification system.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   

Sandy, if Stine's killer looked like Stine, why doesn't the composite of the killer resemble Stine in the least?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:08 am:   

Scenario 2: Here's what I really think happend.

It is approx. 3 miles from the Stine murder to M&G st. Thats a long way to walk. Thus, I think Z called a cab from somewhere near the murder scene (I think from a house or bar on Jackson st).

If this scenario is right, then investigators could search the the cab co. records to see if anyone was picked up near the murder scene and delivered to M&G st. earlier that day. If Z was picked up at a house then his ass can still be caught.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:43 am:   

Ed, As you have said over and over again the composite can not be taken seriously.If you put a crewcut wig on Stine, and horn-rimmed glasses I can see where they look alike.I am also saying that my R.H. looks like a clone to Stine, "if" my suspect R.H.was the killer of Stine, that maybe he wanted Stines ID to make it a lot easier to go to and from Mexico.You haven't seen R.H. so you have nothing you can compare to ,I understand that,maybe you should check him out. All I can say is they look enough alike to be twins. In the 60's Mexico was the place to get MJ and other drugs cheap,in order to make more money selling it here in the bay area. Haveing a last name like Hernandez even though he didn't look hispanic in the winter months, it would be harder to get to and from Mexico with that name.The fact that Darlene was recieving gifts from Mexcio and the killer at LB said he was going to Mexcio ( even though it could have been a lie). I think that Mexico came up too many times to be ignored.The police will tell you that when a name or a place comes up more than once,its time to take a better look at it.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:59 am:   

I emailed Vallejo Dave to ask him if he could see what I believe to be Z logos in blood on the Stine cab. He also found one that I missed. The ones that I see are on the front fender near the 6, one is at about 11 oclock the other is at about 7oclock. Dave sees one near Stines elbow,there could be two in that area,one that looks like a H in a circle. Anyone else see them ? Can it be just a flaw in the flim?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:20 pm:   

Sandy, if RH looks like Stine's clone/twin, then all I need to do is look at a pic of Stine to know what RH looks like. And if he did kill his dead ringer simply for his ID, why didn't the teen witnesses and Fouke both state that the killer, ie, Z, looked exactly like the murder victim, ie, Stine? Fouke especially should have commented on that, and yet, he never has.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:01 am:   

Ed,
I'm with you on this, I don't think that Z looked like Stine, But did any of the witness or Fouke see Stein
Sandy, if RH looks like Stine's clone/twin, then all I need to do is look at a pic of Stine to know what RH looks like. And if he did kill his dead ringer simply for his ID, why didn't the teen witnesses and Fouke both state that the killer, ie, Z, looked exactly like the murder victim, ie, Stine? Fouke especially should have commented on that, and yet, he never has}
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:22 pm:   

Hawk, I think it is more than 3 miles from Washington and Cherry to Mason and Geary. Maybe we could get Ed to walk it, and hit some bars along the way, lol.---You may be right about Z hailing a cab out by Jackson in PH.

Bryan--you bring up an interesting point. We see all this stuff about Fouke, the witnesses, Zelms, and others looking at the suspect, but did any of them actually look at Stine's face, as he was lying there dead in his cab?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   

Vallejo Dave, according to Google earth the distance is 2.9 and some change, but do you agree that the cab co. records should be checked?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   

V Dave, I forgot, yes, we should get Ed to walk it and have him stop at every bar along the way and see how many SAM ADAMS he can put away before he drops. lol
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 3:09 am:   

I agree, the cab records should be checked.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:19 am:   

I don't know how well cab records were kept in SF in the 60s - 70s, but here, in Cincinnati, cab records are not kept very well at all. I've done several investigations involving looking at cab records and often had more questions when I left than when I got there. Or course, it probably is different from company to company. I've just probably been unlucky and got all the crap companies.
ET
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   

Et, Hello fellow Cincinnatian.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   

ET, you are right, imo, cab company records are slipshod, to say the least. One would think you could get more of Stine's records thru Workmen's Compensation records in SF and CA, since it was a job related death. I've not had any success in finding those records.---I tried to find his marriage license, and college application, but no hits. His widow would have gotten a $25,000 death benefit because it was job related.( This amount was not enough, IMO).
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:23 pm:   

It is my guess, with the number of investigators on the case, Stine's cab records were checked. Probably several times.

ET

PS: Hi Hawk
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 3:05 am:   

I wish Toshi or Armstrong would join this board to let us know what all was and was not checked.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   

$25,000 was worth a lot more in 1969 than today...
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   

Where Exactly was the Zodiac restaurant? I'm looking for an address so I can see it on Google earth.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 3:05 pm:   

$25,000 in 1969 dollars would be the equivilant of about $125,000 2006 dollars.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   

When you take out a cab on the start of your shift, you note the mileage (or the "boss" does) and then you log in when you return at the end of the shift. (I used to drive a cab, remember?) You can't steal miles from the cab company and expect to keep your job. So, if the Yellow Cab mileage were noted "over by Washington and Maple" by the police, and it comes up too low, a trip to SF Airport could be ruled out. The opposite - many miles on the odometer - would not necessarily prove where Stine had gone in those short 45 minutes.

Also - picking up a package is not unheard of for a taxi driver but it is a rather unusual request. Messenger services perform the same job, usually for less money. The signed receipt for the package should have been in Stine's possession in the cab! Yeah - you gotta have the recipient of the package sign for it.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:26 am:   

We Were Soldiers Once...And Young, in the book and in the movie Yellow Cab drivers delivered DOD notices of Soldiers killed in action. Col Moores wife finally was able to have the cabbies deliver her the notices so she could informed the wives that thier husband was killed in action. So Yellow cab drivers were called upon to do tasks beside thier normal fares.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 11:04 am:   

Yes, and they should have a receipt for those other tasks or deliveries.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 6:57 am:   

How was it determined that Paul Stine picked up Z at Mason and Geary st. in the first place?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 8:57 am:   

SFPD examined his trip log. However, anyone can fudge a trip log.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 10:47 am:   

V dave, so let me get this right, this is the booklet in the cab pic? So, Mr. Stine wrote in this log book that he picked up a fare at M&G st.? I need to know exactly how it was determined.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   

Any good investigator would have checked Stine's itinerary and pick up points. The booklet is pictured in the one crime scene pic, and the large autopsy room pic.---Maybe Tom or SFPD could help you!---Since the case is inactive, maybe we could call for the release of the trip ticket booklet!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   

Vallejo Dave, I went to SFPD last Monday to ask for the evidence I gave to Jim Deasy in Jan 90.I was told that everything that is taken in to evidence is never given back.It wouldn't surprize me if Tom would be able to get a copy.I went to SF again to Mason and Geary on the 20th and had tea and desert at the St Francis, stopped at the Curran Theater to get tickets for Chorus Line. I believe that was where Hair played the night Stine was shot.It was much cooler there than in Contra Costa co.!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:34 pm:   

Sandy, I envy you. I used to sit on those benches across the street from the St Francis, eating a brown bag lunch! I had meetings at the Chronicle building with their Workmen's Comp Director, Herb Nichols, and would walk up to Union Square for lunch.--Stay cool--The heat is ungodly!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   

Here's a look at the piers along the waterfront. Looks like pier 64, where Stine picked up his package, is a little south of Market and the Ferry building.

http://www.sfgov.org/site/port_page.asp?id=31765

Who knows where he actually started work from!
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 9:00 am:   

Did Stine pick up someone at the airport?
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Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 9:22 am:   

Vallejo Dave, the pier looks like a gun.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   

Socal--The police report says he picked up a package at pier 64 and delivered it to the airport. It says nothing about picking up a passenger at the airport, but I have the same question, and which airport?

Book--You are right. That link to the SF Waterfront looks like a revolver with trigger.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 10:44 pm:   

I wonder if he picked up a fare at the airport and brought that fare back to SF?

And yes, I would like to know which airport too.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 3:33 am:   

Someone had previously posted that he would not be allowed to pick up a fare at the airport, which doesn't make sense to me.The name of the game is tips and fares. Why go back in an empty cab?

I keep thinking of this package. It must have arrived by ship at the pier, probably from another country. It is then immediately taken to the airport for transport somewhere else. Why was it so important? Any guesses on what might have been in it?

"Stine's head in Z's lap?" Z searching Stine's pockets. Maybe he was looking for the receipt for the package?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 6:33 am:   

I know this is a diversion from the Z theories, but maybe Stine was killed because he found out what was in the package--cash, drugs, secret cables about atrocities in Viet Nam? It would then be an easy matter to rip off a piece of his shirt and blame it on Zodiac later.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   

Agree Dave. Anyone can fudge a trip log.

Especially for a cash deal.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   

Vallejo_Dave, just to clarify California taxi laws: Airports are under "franchise," that is, one particular cab company bids for the exlusive right to pick up fares, the Department of Airports (for us in L.A.) is the agency collecting the franchise fee. Guess Stine's Yellow Cab Co. was not the franchise-holder.

When I drove a cab back in '76, we were told quite clearly by our supervisor NOT to pick up fares or "troll" within airport property. It is punishable by a stiff fine (there are "taxi police" watching, I guess). There is an exception, I forget how it works but it was complicated: something like, if a person absolutely wants to go in your cab, you can call your taxi dispatcher and ask permission. I think they in turn have to notify the other cab company or the County or someone (and maybe kick back some $$ to the franchise holder).

Cabbies could also instruct would-be fares to walk outside the airport terminal limits, where the franchise did not apply. With LAX as large as it is, that's not real helpful.

Hence, an airport trip with a package, no return fare, is not a real good money-maker and the sort of thing a cabbie dislikes. Sort of "the boobie prize." It was not Stine's night!!!
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   

J eric....My point exactly. It was not Stines night and he got the "the boobie prize".

That makes it more likely that he may pick up an illegal fare from the airport.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   

Jesus--I just noticed something in that pic of Stine dead in his cab above. It looks like his stomach is opened up! He was shot in the head, right? Does anyone else see this?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   

I'm not Jesus, but I don't see it.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 11:38 pm:   

In that he picked up Zodiac at or near the St. Francis, rather than going directly (empty) to the Allen Arms Apts., Stine may have been "hustling rides." (Trying to slide in an extra fare with the hopes of recouping his loss on the airport package deal.) To me it just looks like a lot of blood all over Stine's body from the head, not necessarily any other wounds.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 4:10 am:   

1.Both Stine and Zodiac are wearing jackets, but the small wing window is wide open on the passenger side. That just seems odd.

2.E.M.T Stewart Dousette checks Stine and pronounces him dead at 10:10 pm. So, was the bloody fingerprint ever checked aginst Stewart Dousette?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 10:11 am:   

Wasn't a window down or open in most of the Z car crimes ? In the Jewish religion, and could be other religions as well, it is believed that a open window is to help the sole go to Paradice faster.LH rd it was down on a very cold night,BRS it was down also as I remember.When ever I read about a murder and a window is open or broken from the inside of a home, I can't help but wonder.Ed if you are reading this, I know that we have never heard of a Zodiac murder inside of a home. Do we really know for sure he never killed "anyone" inside of a home ? He did say that he would no longer write to let us know ? Maybe he told the truth for once ? He didn't claim the Santa Barbara killing,yet it is believed he did it.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 1:08 pm:   

If Z murdered anyone in their own home, it is up to the person who believes it to prove it; it's pointless to speculate otherwise, since RG did the same for some murders that were committed by others and only confused the case more than it already is.

And perhaps the windows were down for more mundane reasons: at LHR, Z drove up, rolled his own window down, motioned for BLJ to do the same, and asked a question as a ruse. At BRS, it was a very hot July night, so it goes without saying that Mageau's window was down because of that. And maybe Z was smoking and opened the fly window to let the smoke out (some smokers hate the smell of their own second-hand smoke). Nothing mysterious in any of that.

Getting back to our regular discussion, it's illogical to assume that the package and Z were somehow connected. That would presuppose that Z knew what was in the package, who picked it up, and also where he could flag Stine down. All three are highly unlikely, especially the third, since cab drivers are mobile and can be found anywhere in the city at any given time.

Dave: Stine appears to have a hairy chest; it hasn't been opened up (or someone would definitely have recorded that at the time, and it wasn't).
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 1:09 am:   

Hawk, Z took the keys to the cab, or so it is told. If he then locked & closed the doors (and this I don't know), then perhaps the little window was pried open by the responding police, so that they could reach the lock & open the cab doors.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:27 am:   

J eric, I just thought it seemed odd that the car heater is off and the wing window is WIDE open, yet you have two guys wearing jackets.

The question is, is it indicative that Z sat in the front seat when he got in the cab? If so, does that mean Stine and Z knew each other? Was he a smoker? Were there any fingerprints found on the wing window? Was there a single cigarette butt mashed out in the ash tray? What brand was it? Of the 2500 suspects questioned, how many smoked that brand?

It was just an observation thats all. lol
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:39 am:   

You can see several cigarette butts outside the cab, near Stine's hand.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   

Hawk wrote:

Where Exactly was the Zodiac restaurant? I'm looking for an address so I can see it on Google earth.

You're thinking of Z's Bountiful Buffet, which was located at 3565 Geary, not too far from Washington & Cherry.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:02 am:   

Thank you Ed.

V dave, Z's buffet at 3565 Geary, not too far from Washington & Cherry. Are you thinkin what I'm thinkin? lol
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 7:54 am:   

Hawk--That buffet would have been a great spot for a Task Force Meeting.

A sinister thought--Z and Stine dined there, and that is where Stine started his shift. He never went to the airport. He fudged the trip book. Z saw the irony in the name, then took Stine to Maple, then Cherry, for desert.

Were Stine's stomach contents examined at the autopsy?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

I think that's standard operating procedure. In any case, it's not longer called Z's Bountiful Buffet, it's a restaurant of some sort called Prime Time Sf Inc.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   

Mason and Geary - April 1906:

http://content.cdlib.org/dynaxml/data/13030/zx/hb2 n39n8zx/files/hb2n39n8zx-FID4.jpg
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   

Great pic Johno--note the St. Francis building is still standing.---I'm wondering if Z's bountiful buffet served alcoholic beverages.

To me, this is all an indication that Z was very familiar with this neighborhood. Bus routes and cab routes to downtown-where to park your car near the Presidio, how to escape into the Presidio and get across the GGB, or go back downtown. Lombard street was a major artery South, I believe, and had many motels where Z could have hidden.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 3:37 am:   

Dave, I have to agree with you. I can help but think that Z was within a 5 block radius of the murder scene when he wrote the Stine letter and said "over by Washington st and Maple st last night". I don't think he lived there but was just staying there for the weekend.

The trouble is, I have been unable to work out all the bugs. For example: Was Z staying with his parents for the weekend? Wouldn't they become suspicious why he didn't take his own car to Mason st. and or coming in late after learning there was a murder the night before? Did he plan the whole thing out and stay at a near by motel? This is why I think it's important to know if Armstrong & Toschi had checked All Cab company records to see if anyone was picked up somewhere near the murder scene and takin to somwhere near Mason and Geary st. earlier that day. It's approx. 3 miles from Cherry st to Mason and I don't think his sorry ass walked that far.

ARMSTRONG!!!!!!!!!! TOSCHI!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE THE HELL ARE YA!!!!!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   

Hawk, if Z planned a little ahead and stayed a night or two at a nearby hotel (perhaps on Lombard), he might have either taken a bus to Mason & Geary, or if he took a cab, what reason would Armstrong & Toschi have to look in the Lombard area in the first place? It was logical to assume that Z parked his getaway car somewhere in the area of PH, and so would therefore have called for a cab in that same area, and going by that assumption, they'd run down every lead in the PH area with no luck and scratch their heads. After 37 years and we're still no closer to catching Z than in 1969, we need to think outside the box, which is why I first suggested (was it last year?) that Z stayed in a nearby hotel...
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 8:30 pm:   

Ed, there you go with them negative waves again.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   

Hawk, More than likely Dave Toschi is at home with Carol, waiting for R. Graysmith to to pick him up for lunch. He and Graysmith are bud's. That is what I was told by Robert in a "very nice" phone conversation we had. I am one of the few who has nothing bad to say about Robert Graysmith, I like him and enjoyed talking to him about the case. I hope some day to meet him in person. "Hate" is bad for the health.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   

You jogged my memory. Just as a note, there was a bar at the corner of Lombard and Van Ness called the Domino Room. That flange symbol on the Stine anniversary card looks somewhat like a marking on a domino piece to me.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   

Interesting, Dave. After all, what is a dominoe but a "pair o' dice?" And the word domino comes from the Latin "dominus," which means, I think, a "master"--someone who might own a slave.

Would Zodiac simply have been trying to show off his erudition, or would this actually have meant something in particular?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:15 am:   

Sandy, I sure wish they would join the board and clearup some questions.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:39 am:   

Good points, Doug. Actually, the name of that bar was The Drawing Room. They had a domino room in the back for their patrons. It was on the west side of Van Ness, near Lombard. I was in there with 2 guys from the Presidio.

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