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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   

Cab

Here's another look into the cab. The picture quality isn't great, but it's better than nothing.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   

It looks to me as if Stine's body is hanging halfway out the front passenger-side door. In order to have gotten him in that position, Zodiac would have had to pull his body toward the door so that it was resting up against the door panel, then forcefully closed it once he exited the cab from that side.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   

Zodiac must have been covered in blood.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 8:06 am:   

You would think Zodiac would have blood on his face just from back splatter from the gun shot alone from what else he got on him from moving Stines body.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:31 am:   

Looks like Stine's body was fully exsanguinated. His heart probably continued to beat for some time after he was shot. The thing I don't understand is why there aren't fingerprints (with or without ridge marks) all over the infernal cab.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 4:32 pm:   

Doug,

There isn't much inside a car to fingerprint. Especially, using late 1960s technology. Today, the first thing one would do to print the inside a car is super glue it. Super glue, relative to finger print science, wasn't known in the 60s.

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 4:56 pm:   

Etphoto, I was referring to finger marks made in Stine's blood, not latent prints with ridge markings. Whether he was wearing gloves, or using airplane glue, or some other such method of concealing prints, the marks should have been there, made in blood. Unless, that is, he took extraordinary care to avoid touching any part of the cab, inside or out.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   

Doug,

I see.

ET
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   

I always wondered if Z wiped blood from his face, or other parts of his body, with Stines shirt piece. I wonder if they will ever check that swatch for DNA other then Stines, or if that is even possible.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 6:35 am:   

Tommy,

Why would you think Z wiped himself down with Stine's shirt?

ET
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:20 am:   

Here's a better look at Stine's book.

!
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 3:52 am:   

I wonder if that book was in his hand when he was killed. Just the way it's out of the car and his hands are hanging out the door.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 3:18 pm:   

Hi-

Something that is simply amazing to me are the cab prints that are shown on the new Zodiac movie website. I have looked very carefully at the photo of the cab after it was processed (A&E show) and for the life of me, I cannot see anything resembling powder on the post between the front and rear doors on the driver's side. Nor can I see it on the rear door frame. Granted, this may be a problem of resolution. (There is fingerprint powder on the top part of the front door frame on the driver's side but none that I can see on the post or the rear door frame. If these prints had to be developed, why is there no powder? Where are these prints?)

What is also amazing is that one of the first-responders is alleged to have seen these bloody smudges/prints but they do not appear anywhere in the report from that night. These prints seem to me potentially to be the most important piece of evidence in the case and yet there is no mention of their presence upon his arrival in the report.

The other thing about these prints is that they are alleged to have been left when Z leaned into the cab to wipe blood or retrieve something. Does anyone know if Stine's window was rolled up or down? I am presuming that given the time of year and the temperature (50s, I think), it was rolled up. If so, and Z had to open the door to lean in, how did he get prints from his right hand on the frame of the door, which would have swung well away to his left when he opened it?

These so-called "bloody prints" are very confusing to me. I hope somebody can shed some light on them...

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 4:42 pm:   

Mike, if I were you I'd forget the B.S. and concentrate on what's in the actual reports.

Incidentally, unless the cab were about ten feet wide and Zodiac wanted to reach something at the far end of the passenger's side, it's highly unlikely he would have used the door post to stabilize himself. Try it yourself. The normal tendency for a right-handed person is to lean against the area between the front and rear door with one's back to the vehicle and bring the right hand in. Placing the right hand against the door post doesn't give any support; it would be completely unnecessary.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 6:21 pm:   

Douglas, the chance that not all of the necessary information may be contained in the reports warrants a look at other sources. Since this case is unsolved, I would say that makes it even more necessary. There could be any number of reasons for the prints to be where they are described. The task is finding out what is actually B.S. and what may be an actual oversight.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 6:49 pm:   

So far as the reports are concerned, Yarbchris, I doubt very seriously if SFPD would have held back information when soliciting help from the FBI. What good would that have done?
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 6:58 pm:   

Hi Doug-

That is the only reason I could imagine for "forgetting" to include these prints in the report to the FBI. However, I also cannot think of a logical motive for doing such a thing.

These seem to be phantom prints...until proven otherwise.

Mike
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 8:56 pm:   

It is possible that the omission, if any, was not intentional. Police are human and they make mistakes. Sometimes they make very stupid mistakes. I know of a case where a woman was found murdered in a ditch with her pants removed. LE failed to check for sexual assault or DNA. The possibility of oversight always exists. Regardless of errors in recording the prints, SFPD was certainly not without fault in the Stine case.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:59 am:   

One mistake, perhaps. In a case of this size, a teeny-teeny-tiny perhaps. A dozen mistakes; no.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 3:34 pm:   

So, these prints never existed?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 3:48 pm:   

Yarbchris, they may have existed in the sense that someone saw the markings of fingers on the cab. But consider that, unless Zodiac was an utter fool, he covered his hands in some way to avoid leaving ridge mark impressions. In that case, given the quantity of blood in the cab, one should assume that finger marks would appear in and around it.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 3:54 pm:   

Hi-

I didn't mean to imply that they do not or cannot exist. I just can't prove to myself that they exist at this point. They do not appear to be visible on the photos taken of the cab after some stage of print development. (This is the photo that appears on the A&E show from 2003.) Whether the cab was a "work in progress" at the time the photo was taken, I have no idea.

I have always thought that the only prints they thought were from Z were the ones "circled in red" on the letter they sent to the FBI: the "lower finger joints/upper palm prints" from the driver's side and the very distal tips of two fingers from the passenger's side door handle. The latter are strictly latents with no blood. Then someone who was at the scene came along and said they saw bloody smudges with latents that are most likely from the killer and which are associated with blood. These are supposedly clear finger pad prints from the post between the front and rear doors on the driver's side of high evidentiary value (in the opinion of the retired SFPD personnel making the statements) and are presumably the ones shown on the movie web site.

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 4:09 pm:   

Everybody wants to get in on the action, particularly bit players who just happened to be standing around at the time.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   

O.K. I see where you guys are coming from, and thanks for you explanations.

My thought about any prints on the cab, or on any piece of evidence for that matter(or any DNA), has been that they could be from anyone. I know that there are good reasons for being conclusive about some of the evidence, but many scenarios exist where they could be from someone else. The exterior of the cab is a surface where many people come in contact with everyday, some of whom may be bleeding for more innocent reasons also adds to the confusion.

That being said, I am still curious about the existence and origins of any prints or other evidence, formally documented, or not. I realize that kind of thinking may never be truly fruitful, but it is sort of a compulsion on my part.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   

I agree with you, Yarbchris. It never hurts to be inquisitive, and I hope you don't think I was trying to stifle you in that regard.
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 5:47 pm:   

Hi-

Well, I would not go so far as to say that "just anyone's" blood could be on the cab but...certainly, there are questions about whose prints those may be. However, SFPD is adamant about the fact that the cab was cordoned off and that elimination prints were taken from on-scene personnel. At least that is what Inspector Toschi told me in 2003. That was echoed in 2004 by the retired SFPD officer currently saying positive things about these prints.

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:54 am:   

Actually, Mike, if there was any blood at all on the cab, it was going to be Stine's, and if there were markings of fingers, they were probably Zodiac's. I'm not sure everyone quite understands what I mean by "finger marks." For experimental purposes, get a can of red paint, put gloves on your hands, dip your gloved hands into the paint, and then put your hands all over the walls. What you'll get are fingerprints with no ridge patterns; completely unusable forensically.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 6:42 am:   

All incident reports have portions that are considered non public records. These portions stay non public until the case is closed. It is conceivable the mention of latents of value are listed in the investigative notes on the case and non public. I said "conceivable". I would think though there is no investigative value to not release the fact (officially) latents of value exist.

Latents of value are prints that are considered unusable. If a print was developed (using powder) on the car and it was obvious to the print man it was not of value, he might not have lifted it.

ET
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 8:39 am:   

Hi-

We're talking about prints that were supposedly visible to the first responder at the scene and which he says are good enough to be used for EXCLUSION, even though the department uses them more conservatively than that. I hardly think that there was no ridge pattern to them.

Unfortunately, I think that this is something we can debate until the proverbial cows come home. The main question I have is why they "forgot" to send these prints to the FBI "circled in red," as were the other prints thought to come from the killer.

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 9:45 am:   

Maybe they were holding it back as confirmatory data in case the killer confessed.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 5:36 am:   

Mike,

You said "We're talking about prints that were supposedly visible to the first responder at the scene ".

I was recently called in on a homicide case where the first responders said the victim was in a fight and lying dead in the street with brain matter around his head. When I got there I discovered there were no injuries to the supposed victim and the so called brain matter was vomit. The person died of a heart attack and not an assault. So much for the opinions of all first responders.

ET

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