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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   

After reviewing the Stine report and various parts fo the achived message board, I was just wondering if we know exactly where the dog units searched? Additionally, was there a scent that they picked up and followed to a point where they lost the scent, if so where and what was that conclusion? Im just wondering if because of what the dogs could or could not find, it might lead us to believe that Z did take off in a parked car. Im not the best at starting new threads, so I will not be offended if it is deleted as a result of this not being a hot topic.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   

I think it's an excellent topic. In fact, for some time I've wanted to locate and interview someone who worked with the dogs that night, to no avail.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   

I read somewhere that they used seven dog units and began with them at ground zero the cab and fanned out in all directions searching the immediate surrounding area block by block.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   

Very good topic Tommyt.

I'm not a dog handler but been around enough to know that a dog usually starts to track at the last known location the bad guy was seen. I guess that would be at the cab.

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:49 pm:   

Were these SFPD dog units or Presidio/military dog units, or a combination of both?
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   

Now i'm curious to know how many different directions these dog units went. If none of them went in the same direction, then there would seem to have been a problem. What I was really getting at is; did the dogs scent stop at the point where Tom Voigt predicted that Zodiac might have had a parked car, or even, did any of the dogs make way to one of the entrances to the military base....etc...etc. If at least a few of the dogs ended up in the same spot, then we could better predict what really happened. I wonder if there is a report concerning this that SFPD has not disclosed
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 4:01 am:   

Excellent topic, Tommy, I agree. Just think about all of the words that have been spilled here on threads about Z's escape route and method, Mr.X, Robert Hunter and many others revolving around the aftermath of Paul Stine's murder.

I know nothing about how these search dogs operate but I presume that they would be attempting to follow the scent of Stine's blood, no? Since Z almost certainly had a good dose of Stine's blood on him, one would think that these dogs would have had a good scent to work with. It would sure be interesting to know the answers to some of the questions you pose here.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 9:32 am:   

Deoxys,

The normal crook leaving a crime scene (Z probably couldn't be considered normal) is pretty anxious and because of increased body functions (usually sweat) gives out a stronger scent. That is what a dog usually tracks. It is pretty much common knowledge that most crooks that don't have a getaway car somewhere and when the cops are in the area searching, try to hide. When a police dog finds a crook, he is usually hidden somewhere. If they don't find him, the dog handler usually writes it off as he lives close by and home (probably not in the case of Z) or he got into a car and left. Or simply, the dog wasn't able to pick up a scent.

Consider the year Stine's murder took place. Today, the dog handler would have a radio and easily communcate with nearby searching units. He can tell the searching units if the dog has a track and which way that track was leading. Back then, the cops were handicapped with bad communications and the dog handlers couldn't as easily give out instruction to nearby units.

I question Johno's information about 7 dogs searching at the same time. I've never heard of that happening before but I could be way off. I've seen it when two dogs show up at a crime scene two handlers will walk with one dog and the other dog stays in the car. I have no clue how they did dog searches back in those days. (Yet I'd be willing to bet it hasn't changed much).

Dog searching isn't an exact science, but I think most people now-a-days excepts the fact dogs are able to track bad guys. The most recent example I can give (if memory serves me correctly) is the Scott Peterson case. The dog handler actually testified in court on the direction his dog tracked when searching for the victim (Lacey).
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:48 am:   

Etphoto, once again, it was the Presidio Heights, one of the wealthier areas of town and it might have been expected that they dispatch all available dog units. But then again, I can't find where, at least on this site, where it discusses the number of dog units. How many dogs are typically in a dog unit?
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:14 am:   

I think how many dogs are brought in depends on the search area. They probably only brought in a couple dogs to search the immediate area (a couple city blocks) IMO.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:22 am:   

The Stine police report, page 2, mentions 7 dog teams.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   

V Dave, your right. I must have missed that short sentence. The reports did say after mentioned the 7 dog units "to no avail." I guess that means the dogs did not pickup any scent.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 4:03 pm:   

Dave,

Yeap, sure enough. 7 dog units. I stand corrected. I'm thinking though, that the way it reads, it was a blind search by the dogs and not a track. A track is usually started at the last "known" location the dirt bag was seen. Good job on finding that in the report Dave.

ET
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 9:56 am:   

Something to ponder perhpas...on page 109 of Graysmith's first book:
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18,1969

When he spoke to the press, Lee (Cartain Marty lee) categorized Zodiac as a liar.
"His boast of being in the area while we were searching is a lie. We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of partolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country. A mouse couldn't have escaped our attention. The fact that zodiac failed to mention dogs or floodlights proves he wasn't anywhere in the vicinity".

It is possible that Zodiac caught that transmission and that that is what prompted him to
respond later with claims about his position and the dogs..true or false.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   

There may have been more than 7 dog units. If you read that sentence in the report--"the military police headquarters of the Presidio was notified, and an intense search of Julius Kahn area was made by 7 dog units(I presume MP dogs), other Richmond and CP units(canine patrol?), to no avail."---Christ, maybe they had too many dogs there!
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 11:47 am:   

Well, Captain Lee must have later realized that it was just another foul-up job by the SFPD and all he could attempt to do is face-save the department. Their dogs are the best in the Country, yeah, right. They searched the park inch by inch, yeah, except for possibly Z's bedroom on the military base.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 7:29 am:   

It really seems unbelievable with all that blood the dogs would not have picked up a scent and followed it to some point (i.e., steps going up to a house or a point where a car was parked).
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:29 am:   

I think this is evidence that Z had a car parked nearby. It would have been mighty hard to pick up a sent if there wasn't one. It doesn't help identify who Z was, but one more little piece of evidence to consider.

ET
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:52 am:   

I think what's unbelievable Warren is that they apparently started at the park and not at the cab.
It's not at all unbelievable the dogs didn't pick up Z's scent if he wasn't in there to begin with.
It might have been helpful to know that Z was last seen heading up steps to a private residence on Jackson and not north on Maple toward the Presidio.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:52 am:   

Sean,

Using a dog to track, one would start at the last seen point of the badguy. In this case, the kids would direct the dog unit on where Z was last seen. One of the reasons a dog unit wouldn't start his track there is too many people on foot in the area (ie, other cops searching the area).

ET
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   

It appears there may have been several dog units there from several different sources. The logical thing to do, would have been to have 1 or 2 units start from Stines cab--who needs the pre teens to pinpoint it--the body and blood were there.----The Presidio MP dogs were used more to scare out a hidden suspect, and didn't have a scent ,imo. Still, some of the dogs, or one, should have led them to the spot that the car was parked, or the spot where the perp went into a house. But they didn't--this is a big puzzle to me.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 4:27 pm:   

At least there wasn't anything mentioned in the reports about a possible track ending at an empty street curb. It is my guess that a few tracks are not cut and dry. Meaning the dog handler is on the fence if his dog is actually tracking or not. Could be, could not be. If the dog handler was on the fence it might not get mentioned in a report.

Again. It really isn't evidence that is going to lead to any particular person. Just an interesting consideration.

ET
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   

ET, the thing is that if all units ended at an empty curb, then it would most likely rule out Z entering the base, at least at that point, or living in the area.

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