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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:34 am:   

Look at these pics:

http://www.lwn-photo.com/images/PanoSm/GGBFtPntSm. mov

http://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFLndmrkVws/GGBFtPoi nt.html
http://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFNbrhds/Golden_Gate _Bridge.html

http://www.postcardcity.ecrater.com/product.php?pi d=332789

The last one is the old Round House Restaurant that was near the Toll Plaza at the time of the confirmed Z kills. Bear with me. I want to display a theory of how the flange symbol may have come from Z frequenting this area, Ft. Point, and sites across the bridge in Marin.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   

Superimpose the flange symbol over the GGB.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HalloweenCardEnvelope. html

It is my premise that Z spent alot of time at the Round House site, drinking coffee, working, or just watching people. The Z on the envelope would be generally at the location of the Restaurant. You have the 4 dots as lights on the bridge. You also have the right side of the flange pointing to 2 locations, one possibly Ft.Baker. Mix in Z's circular subliminal messages and it may mean something. BTW, you can get a similar viewpoint from the Marin side of the bridge, with the flange pointing to areas near the Presidio. Any thoughts?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   

Here are some more pics. I'll be back.

http://www.msnusers.com/ufuuao5vr2hakgmgfo21057n57 /documents.msnw?fc_p=%2FPictures&fc_a=0
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 8:03 am:   

In the last pic posted, entitled wholepsf, imagine Z standing on that mound between the 2 bridge towers on the Marin side. I think it's an old gun emplacement. You can see the flange symbol represented by the bridge cables going up and down from the towers. The right side of the flange would point toward Ft. Winfield Scott and the toll plaza area. You can see the area of the Presidio stockade also. You can also see all the way out to the Presidio Heights area, right thru the middle of the bridge towers. You have the 4 dots, both on the bridge and on the Twin Peaks tower. In the far distance is a cross on Mt. Davidson.---Now trace the route of highway 101 north, thru the Presidio, up to and across the bridge to Marin, and then up to the tunnel on the Marin side. The shape is in the form of a giant Z! Please feel free to comment. I'm still not sure what this all means.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 5:30 pm:   

Here are some more pics that I will try to tie in with this:

http://www.msnusers.com/ufuuao5vr2hakgmgfo21057n57 /documents.msnw?fc_p=%2FPictures&fc_a=0
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 6:42 am:   

Who was the poster who made the flange symbol in beadwork? Muskogee? Have her prints and DNA been checked?--lol.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:37 am:   

Point Diablo Lighthouse:

http://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=342

I deceided to post this here because of all the Z material I have read about Diablo, I've never heard of this place. It affords tremendous views of the possible flange symbol origin and oozes Z mystique. Click on Point Lime(directly beneath the North Tower), and find the Bay Lighthouses map on here. Carquinez Lighthouse is of interest, as are all of the photos.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   

http://www.msnusers.com/MoreGGBpics.

I'm still experimenting with my MSN. groups stuff. Hope these pics show up. 2 were sent by Trent from chat. Check out the Mile Rock Lighthouse rare pic, with bridge in back.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   

Dave, why don't you try lookin for some Demonic symbols?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 8:14 am:   

Hawk--Why don't you do the honors? I'm very reality oriented, and wouldn't know a demonic symbol if I stepped on it. Any thoughts on the bridge as a pattern for the flange symbol?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   

This pic shows where we had our reserve drills in 69-72, the old airplane hangars by Crissy Field. Note the bridge/flange symbol in background, and the mound on the Marin side. This is where Aquino, Tom Hanson, Barry Gifford, myself and others attended drills. The original Defense Language School and Intelligence School building was a few clicks south, or left on this pic. They eventually moved to Monterey. I think that is Mason St there.

hangarsC:\mysettings\mydocuments\hangars.jpg
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   

Dave, you are single handedly killing me with this Wide Angle Flange Symbol.

I have followed the case on and off for 35 years, but had really never looked at it.

It is so strange and must have had a special meaning to Z for him to use such an odd symbol.

Is there another site or other links on this? (Besides on this site)
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   

The "Wide Angle Flange Symbol" (if we can figure it out).....

Is where he was residing when he wrote the Halloween letter.

Isn't it the return address on his envelope?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   

Socal, I'm just going on a hunch. That is a good insight--"Is this where he was residing", and "Isn't it the return address on the envelope."

I see that too, and was wondering if anyone else did. He may have been telling us where his base or home was. There were many notable people attending military drills there, and I can provide a list of what I remember, if anyone wants.---Dave the Canary
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:07 am:   

Yes Dave.

Z obviously likes to play games and give hints.

I'm thinking that if we could ever figure our what the wide angle flange symbol means exactly......it will tell us where (maybe not even in San Fran in 1970), the Zodiac was living at the time he wrote the letter.

He puts it on his envelope as his return address, knowing that people would probably never be able to figure it out, but for the purpose of another clue and a way to rub it in the police/newspapers face.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 9:25 am:   

I think it is his return address. All we have to do is figure out where it is. Perhaps it represents a view out his window, or from his yard.

In using the symbol compared to the bridge, I am using the top cables of the bridge to compare to the symbol. He may have stylized it a bit.

Unfortunately, some of my links to the pics above have failed.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   

If you look at that highest mound on the Marin side, there are 4 or more dots in the mound by way of indentations in the ground.----And the smaller mound to the right by the North tower would afford a view back towards SF, with the dots on the bridge and Twin Peaks visible. Keep in mind that Z's return address could be a night view, in which different lights would show up. The right side of the flange, viewed from PSF area, might point to Ft.s Baker and McDowell. Viewed from the Marin side, they would point towards Ft. Scott and the Toll Plaza area. Imagine Z thinking he is controlling this very important access to the whole Bay area--traffic n & s, ship and boat traffic, targets on PSF for hand held missles,(real or imagined, for the purpose of creating fear). Is there a better spot for bomb placement? BTW, I bivouaced on those high peaks in Marin in 69. There is a rifle range(was) at Ft Barrie just NW of that high peak, and Ft Chronkite is just n of there, by Rodeo Lagoon. One more point, there is a small replica of the GGB leading to the Lighthouse at Point Bonita.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:19 am:   

In looking at the Halloween card envelope, Paul Averly, there is a short underline under l Ave. Could this mean 1st Ave? I checked it on a map and there is no 1st Ave, but 2nd Ave is right next to Arguello, heading west. If you regard Arguello as 1st Ave, this might point to an address near the Arguello Blvd gate of PSF. What do you think Socal?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   

In 1909 1st Avenue was renamed Arguello Boulevard.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   

Dave....That is very interesting.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 7:10 am:   

Thanks Johno. There are some interesting spots on Arguello--A middle school, the Indian Consul General building, and some adult day care outpatient facilities.

The Round House Restaurant ties in with my theory of Z being a regular there. His known attacks appear to be circling the N Bay--LHR, BRS, LB, Stine. Perhaps he planned a few more for Marin, then in the E Bay area later to complete the circle.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 8:04 am:   

The Big Picture:

Z forms his diabolical plan while living, working, or visiting Presidio Heights, the Presidio, The Roundhouse and the GGB area. He is influenced by seeing the bridge daily, listening to the fog horns and bells, and seeing all the Lighthouses flashing signals. He deceides to create a circle of terror around the N Bay, stretching roughly from GGB to the Bay Bridge, then N on I-680, across the Benicia/Martinez Bridge, thru Vallejo, Napa and Marin and back to the Roundhouse. The Phillips 66 map circle may tie in with this somehow, and his "Gooood Byyyee" to Nancy Slover does sound like a fog horn. I think Z lived somewhere within that circle.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:40 am:   

Here's a pic from Z's neighborhood,imo. The 17th hole of the Lincoln Park Golf Club:

http://www.lincolnparkgc.com/
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

Here's another pic of the potential flange symbol.

gC:\mysettings\mydocuments\g.jpg

Yes, that's Steve in his fastback Mustang headed for GGB in the fog.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   

Whoa, VDave!

If you were the one taking this picture, you're on the wrong side of the road!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   

Whoa yourself Deo. It's a pic from the Bullit movie,as is self explanatory from people who have seen it and are fans. What do you think of my theory? BTW--who appointed you censor and message board police?--lol
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:49 pm:   

Sorry, my friend, I've never seen it. Just looking out for your safety. Your theory is as good as any, IMO. Until we can ask Z, we have no idea what inspired the wide-flange symbol or motivated any of his actions. Keep working.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 7:26 am:   

I find Daves theory very interesting, but am thinking of it from a different angle.

I am not so sure the "wide angle flange" is of the bridge or of anything in San Francisco. (Although that is as good of theory as any, as Deoxy says).

I am thinking it may be a "symobol" of something non San Fran related. It may even be of something astrological or a design of an obscure event or happening. This event or happening would take place in the city or place that Z lived in at the time he sent that letter.

I swear I have seen that design somewhere (probably on a Z letter ) years ago, but can't place it. My thought is that it comes from something to do with Alaska or the Northern Lights, but I have found nothing on it yet.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 11:11 am:   

It reminds me somewhat of a dismantled Volkswagon emblem.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   

BTK made up a Word-Search puzzle, and in it contained his partial name,his home address and what he did for a living.

Eddie Seda (Zodiac of NY), put a symbol at the end of his letters. When he was interrogated on an unrelated charge, he put this symbol at the bottom of his police statment. Which got him caught.

Yes, serial killers do dumb things, and yet no one but me thinks the wide flange beam symbol is an L & F representing Zodiacs initials, even after he say's "You ache to know my name, And so I'll clue you in".

I'm a fan of Occum's Razor. The simple explaination tends to be the correct one.

Now, if someone could find a Military or astrological symbol(s) that look similar, then I may change my mind. Until then, it's an L and a F as far as I'm concerned.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   

OK--all input absorbed. I still think the symbol is related to the Bay area, and the GGB area, not Alaska or initials of anyone. Your theories may be correct in your eyes, but I'm still going to pursue mine!
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 7:52 pm:   

V dave, theres nothin wrong with chasin a hunch, and I hope you find something.
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Bargle
Username: Bargle

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 8:59 pm:   

I'm sticking with the interpretation I mentioned in the chat recently.
I think it's a drawing of a large truck hitting a giraffe and breaking its neck.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 9:14 pm:   

Hawk, I agree. Everyone should run with their own theories and no one should shun someone elses theories.

I don't think it is important to be the "guy" that solves it......just that it gets solved.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   

OK... Now all we have to do is find L.F., the Nordic truck-driving Digger who lives near Lincoln Park Golf Course. He can be taken in on charges of animal cruelty by vehicle until we can definitively link him to Z crimes.

In general, I agree with ya, Hawk, about Occam's Razor but Z already lied to us at least once (promising that the 3-part cipher would reveal his identity). Remember good 'ol BTK also sent a tantalizing list of personal details which DID lead to an arrest. The man arrested based on these details just won a 1.1 million lawsuit.

http://www.ksnw.com/news/local/4448416.html
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   

Hawk,
The letters L and F could very plausibly be his initials according to your interpretation but you could even take that one step further and include the 4 dots that are found between the L and F. If you connect the dots you have the letter D sitting on its side so you may have three initials there in LDF.

Dave and Socal,
If the flange symbol as a return address was a clue to where his actual adress was on October 27, 1970 then why does the crosshair symbol appear on his Stine letter of October 13, 1969 on the envelope's return address?
Did he change addresses in that one year time frame?
He also includes the flange symbol on the bottom of the halloween card next to four crescent moon symbols, the letter Z and the crosshair symbol.
How would it's placement there be a clue to his address?
Would the crescent moons be interpreted as half moons and his actual address has something to do with Half Moon Bay?

To get in the spirit of Halloween I've got some thoughts on the moons that I'll post in the Zodiac Letters discussion of the Halloween Card thread.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:26 am:   

Interesting points, Johno.I don't think he moved. He just became more elaborate with his symbolism for his address.

Here's a thought--with the flange, was he drawing a street map for us? The top of the F could be Arguello, with the small off shoot being Cherry St. Then proceed down Washington, and make a right either on Presidio Blvd. or Divisadero, then a left on another street. The 4 dots could be buildings or neighborhood landmarks.

Another possibility would be the circle and cross on the 69 envelope could refer to the RoundHouse, in addition to his name. That would place his address near the Presidio or PH.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 10:16 am:   

Johno, to tell you the truth, you are way ahead of me on this one.

I thought the wide angle flange only appeared on the one envelope, so all of your points are very good and noted in my memory. (What is left of it )

I think he may have moved out of the Bay Area after the last known murder. Isn't the letter with the wide angle flange, the first letter after the last murder? That is where I was going.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   

Conversely, the flange symbol could be Z and Stine's route out of downtown. Starting at the bottom, come out Geary, turn right onto Divisadero or Presidio, then left up Washington to the killing spot. Then somehow Z got on Arguello north(highway 1) to his escape across the GGB, or he sat at the Round House Restaurant slurping coffee and watching motorcycle races!

Half Moon Bay is a nice town--I don't think Z lived there.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   

Ok V dave, on that thought, consider the symbol an L&F representing Lake st. and Funston ave. which is right at the edge of Presidio Park. It also looks like a good place for Z to park his car where he could have quick access to the highway.

Johno, theres also a backwards N in the word knife.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 5:00 pm:   

Here's a letter from Howard Davis's site. It says "L know all". http://www.zodiacmurders.com/fool_the_old_killer.h tml
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:30 pm:   

Hawk, The LF idea is as good as any. Ofcourse the L in my book would be Larry. I tend to think that the flange beem symbol is again his fixation with Mt.Diablo.The 4 dots could be 4 of his victims, one northeast of the Mt, another so.east. Two west of the Mt., one North and the other south. The town of Clayton is very close to north west side of the Mt.He pointed it out on the Phillips map,Clayton is about 9 miles from my home.I also noticed that on the two line cipher that was with the map,was a backwards F next to a symbol on the first line,just below it was the L next to the Z logo. The L and F could be something to think about.Perhaps even two people ?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   

Sandy, fwiw I think Larry's the best suspect out of the bunch.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:11 am:   

What if: it's not the lines and dots that are there, but something that ISN'T there? "Connect the dots" or some sort of child's play and see what develops...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 7:07 am:   

Hawk, OK, the L and F could mean something. Lake and Funston are in a good location for this particular crime. Was it an escape rt. or did he live there?

Deo, don't forget, Z had a Roadster with the cross hair symbol on the door that he raced at Norcal speedways.

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