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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:32 am:   

An inmate of the Presidio Stockade was shot by an MP exactly 1 year prior to the murder of Paul Stine on 10-11-69. Is there any connection between the 2 events? We know Stine's killer was familiar with the Presidio. Jim Phillips was a prisoner in the Stockade at some yet to be determined period. In 1968, the Stockade was located at Ft. Scott in building 1213.
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:07 am:   

Outside of Zs possibly fleeing into it, I'm not aware of anything about his activity that night or subsequent that would indicate more than a casual familiarity with the Presidio.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:42 am:   

I think there's more of a connection between the Stine murder and the Star Trek episode "And the Children Shall Lead," which was broadcast exactly one year to the day before Stine was murdered. The reason why is that Melvin Belli guest starred in that episode, and Z wrote to him once (no one knows if Z really called Oakland PD and asked for Bailey or Belli to appear on Jim Dunbar's show the morning of 10-22-1969).

In other words... I see no reason to connect the Presidio Mutiny to Stine. BTW, Dave, what makes you so certain that Z was familiar with the Presidio?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:44 am:   

Z knew that some of the streets on the Presidio ran SE to NW. He also knew where to stage his attack, in between PSF gates, and close to an unsupervised entry area near Julius Kahn.

There is a current movie out,Sir! No Sir! that delves into the Presidio Mutiny. Also, the author of "Soldiers In Revolt", David Cortright, mentioned in this article, is a grade school bud of mine:

http://www.citizen-soldier.org/SirYesSir.html
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   

Dave, as I've pointed out before, Z wasn't familiar with that area, and Tom pointed out that Z was almost certainly not even from SF. Not only that, all Z had to do was pull out a map (or even visit the area again a few days later) to see what direction the streets ran. It's just a guess that he "knew" where to kill someone; if he was not a SF native and also unfamiliar with the area, trolling the neighborhood the night before was more than sufficient for his purposes.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   

If Z wasn't familiar with that area, how did he know where to park his vehicle, or hide on the Presidio grounds to elude police, MP's and dogs? I too don't think that he was a permanent SF resident, as I've stated before. He could have been on TDY there, or have once lived in the area. Don't you think it coincidental about the killing at the Stockade? And how about Dee's ex being incarcerated there too?

He didn't pull out a map and visit the area a few days later. He mailed his letter the next day, and gave details about the search, that only someone who had been there would know.

The "Star Trek" connection to Z is a fantasy,IMO.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

Dave, if one looks hard enough, one finds plenty of meaningless coincidences. I don't see any connection or significance between the Presidio Mutiny and the Stine murder other than the date. And how did Z know where to park his car? Easy: he trolled the area the day before and found the perfect spot. And Crabtree being incarcerated there? Coincidence. A lot of people were. And Z did not mention any details concerning the streets in his 10-13-1969 letter; all he spoke about was the noise the cops made while searching for him. However, 27 days later, he mailed a letter in which he said the motorcycles went from south to northwest; that was plenty of time for him to look at a map or return to the area to see for himself.

BTW, you can check it out for yourself: "And the Children Shall Lead" was in fact broadcast on 10-11-1968 and guest starred Melvin Belli, who would be on Jim Dunbar's show 12 months later talking to someone he believed at the time was Z, and who Z would write to 2 months after that. It's just as viable a connection as saying that Crabtree was in the Presidio Stockade, perhaps even moreso because Belli was so high profile and had far more meaning to a serial killer as a defense attorney.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   

"And how did Z know where to park his car?"--This in itself is an indication that Z was familiar with the area. I think Z had trolled the area before, not just the night before! Why didn't he have the cab take him to the Lombard Gate area, or the Marina Gate area?--Too public.

The Belli connection is meaningless to me. He was Jack Ruby's attorney, and had a high nationwide identity. Any crackpot would have tried to contact him.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   

I think most of us agree that Z had some military training. He could have been an "Army Brat". Check out this link to Ft. Winfield Scott. Of interest are the map of the fort, showing the location of the Stockade, also the fort was the Home Base of the 504th MP Battalion, and the pictures and info on the gun implacements. Most of them had a plotting and mapping room. Check out Battery Chamberlin. I was tear gassed there with CS in 1969 as part of training. http://www.militarymuseum.org/FtScott.html
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   

I'm not in agreement about the military training. I don't see anything specific about Zodiac that might indicate it.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 3:19 pm:   

Yellow Book made some interesting points (and it is worth noting that even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day): on pages 314-315, he points out military-type terms that Z used in his letters, such as "waiting for me to come out of cover" (10-13-1969) and "will pick off all stray people" (7-31-1969 VTH letter). While these may be a stretch, Yellow Book does mention other terms that I'm not sure I'd agree were strictly military in nature. He also numbered the pages in the 11-9-1969 letter in a typical military style. Z's crew cut is definitely military, but many civilian men prefer to wear their hair in that particular style. The use of Wing Walkers is irrelevant, however, since they were available in 1969 in military surplus stores. So... while not conclusive, I agree there is evidence that Z had a military background (and the draft was in effect at that time, so unless he was exempt for some reason, then he definitely had military experience).
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

Ed, "coming out of cover" could have been used by anyone who had seen "Combat" growing up in the '60s, or read comic books, or watched movies. It's not definitive evidence; neither is "pick off," nor the use of the page numbering which, far from being confined to the military, I've seen used frequently in private industry--I've used it myself. And as Mike Kelleher has observed, Zodiac's personality, as best we can deduce it, was not compatible with military life.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   

I watched "Combat", read comics in the 60's, and watched movies. Never did I see Vic (the guy who got his head chopped on a movie set) allude to "coming out of cover". I'm a Baby Boomer--What can you expect?---------Z's personality was very compatible with military life. Wingwalkers, 9mm's, 22's, bayonettes, bomb diagrams, radians, code work, electric gunsights, attire(pleated wool pants at PSF), Naval clothes and shoes(according to Johns). How much more compatible could you get with military life? Z probably lived at mess halls, commisaries and PX's. He may have even had a military pension!
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   

Perhaps one of the reasons for the crew and military type appearance(agree or not Z wrote he did have a 'disguise')was that he was so near the Presidio and would fit in better if seen walking down the street.

I personally think as a theory,that Z felt a military person would command more respect than an ordinary civilian,hence,it would aid his escape if seen.

Johns told me that one of the reasons she got in that strangers car was because he seemed to be from a miltary base and that he was clean-cut like a military man.The crew cut and shoes that shined,baggy pants,dark blue nylon jacket,etc.,all added to that motif and her impression.
Since the shoe prints at RS were military dress shoes the killer may have indicated to CJB he was from the local base and perhaps was an off-duty MP.
All of this encourages the victim to trust the stranger.

I have and we all have known known military type persons that were never in the service and yet they wore military type clothes.
Maybe they (and young Z)wanted to go in the service but were prevented because of some problem that barred their entry so they were attracted to things military,including flak jackets,camouflage pants,military type t shirts,boots-you know the style!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   

There's nothing about Zodiac to definitively indicate military--absolutely nothing. "Coming out of cover" is a cliche. Military surplus can be purchased even in small towns and municipalities. Heck, Kaczynski had a number of items, such as ammo containers (yes, he called them "ammo containers"); he wore his hair cropped short; he had all kinds of weapons, including knives; he knew how to make bombs; he even invented the damned things; he knew cryptography better than anyone in the military could have taught it to him; he wore a pair of shoes described by his neighbor as "black army dress shoes." He uses the following phrases:
One day I went down and watched, from cover, a guy with a bulldozer ...
I was planning to lie in ambush ....
... and from ambush, murdering ....

I'm sure you could say the same about any intelligent, well-read, outdoorsy type.

The "military connection," if it exists is, in my opinion, very feeble.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   

Doug wrote:

And as Mike Kelleher has observed, Zodiac's personality, as best we can deduce it, was not compatible with military life.

I'm ex-military (3 years in the Air Force), but you'd never know it today. Whether Z's personality was incompatible with military life or not is irrelevant; if he was drafted (as thousands were), he did his time, compatible or not. Of course, if he was a misfit, he would likely have spent much of his time in CC (Correctional Custody, as it was called in the AF).

Either way, there's a good chance Z was ex-military, but it's not conclusive, as Doug points out.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 1:44 pm:   

Just for our own enrichment, look at Ft Mason and the pics in relation to the SF waterfront:

http://www.militarymuseum.org/Pt%20San%20Jose.html
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   

Vallejo Dave,I find it very interesting that you checked out Ft.Winfield Scott ! I found it in a old book I bought about S.F. The picture of stockade that name jumped out at me.I started a investigation of that name and found a Scott Winfield Klein living not that far from me.This guy had a home he rented out to a young couple. The husband was found shot in the head and his body was found in their garbage can , it was ruled a suicide. Kleins wife died in Riverside. That investigation took me for a long ride as did others. I believe the killer had a connection to the Presidio area,just what it was we may never know. I do not feel he had his car there,I believe he lived near there. The name J.Phillips can be found on the 2800 block of Washington at that time. Who knows if it is thee James Phillips or not ? Bob Kane (birth yr.1926) was the head of the 6th army in 69 inspite of what someone posted. Related to my Kane I have no idea.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:49 pm:   

VD,
The Timex at RS was purchased from a PX in Great Britain.FYI

My guy wasn't in the military although he went to military school classes in TN(he could not join as he was in a serious accident in his youth producing large scaring on both legs which even affected his walk);but later,he was attracted to all things military,guns,joined the NRA,etc.,because of his life style,even wearing flak jackets,camouflage pants and the like,but so did a LOT of people then.

We have all read about some serial killers who were military freaks but were never in the military.

I agree with Doug,there is no solid proof one way or the other Z was ever in the military.

Perhaps this was part of Z's misdirection,that is,he wanted to render a public impression that he was or had been in the military.
Certainly the police checked military bases,etc.,searching for Z.
For example,military dress shoe prints were found at RS,so this was one reason March AF Base personel were checked.
Same for Lompoc PX purchased(?)shell casings and military boot prints at LB.

It's like everything else about this case-one may go back AND forth and never come to an absolute point of agreement-just like the Ripper case!

Z was a human being that sent letters and killed folks and that's about it!
And some don't even agree which folks he killed OR which letters came from his sick pen!
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   

When one examines Z's letters various things may be postulated.
Z used 'Texas talk' in the 3/13/71 letter so does this mean he was from the South?
He employed a British motif in some word forms,etc.Does this indicate or prove Z was British?

There are numerous misspellings in his letters- so this means he was in reality a poor speller?

I could use other examples,but this contraversial items are enough to show that we can't hang on what we find in a Z letter and say with confidence that this shows us Z was thus and so and all the rest.

Well,neither can we say with any degree of certainty that Z was either in the military or that he had been at some time in his past because of remarks in his letters or because he seemed to appear 'military' to witnesses because of what he wore.
He may have seemed like he was, but this is only a surmising of what one saw.

Like Tom said many men wore their hair in a crew and wore nylon zip up jackets!
It can go either way and it seems like ol' Z wanted to create confusion-and he did, even to this very day!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 10:20 am:   

Sandy, What I find interesting about Ft.Scott, besides my father having worked there, is that the 504th MP's were there, and some of these same MP's could have been involved in the search for Z with their dogs. I'd like to talk to them!

Tell us more about Bob Kane, the Army guy.
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:46 am:   

Remember that Z's bomb designs were patently unworkable (Ray N. did the best job of demonstrating this) so his "military training" with explosives is questionable, a lot of men in 1969 wore a crew cut or had short hair (Mike Mageau, Brian Hartnell and Paul Stine come to mind), the pagination on one letter means nothing as far as I'm concerned, and as Doug notes, "coming out of cover" and the like are hackneyed, standard cliches. I see the Zodiac as a run-of-the-mill wannabe. They should have put cameras at military surplus stores, as he likely frequented them, in my opinion.

And if in the military, why would Z try to hint at his occupation? Doesn't make a lot of sense.
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 12:44 am:   

Ed wrote,

"BTW, you can check it out for yourself: "And the Children Shall Lead" was in fact broadcast on 10-11-1968 and guest starred Melvin Belli..."

Now THAT is a coincindence! Not only Belli's being a high profile attorney but Z sent Belli a piece of Stine's bloody shirt. How's that for an eye-opener while perusing the morning mail! But in the end, it remains a coincidence, despite the odds. And what would be the odds? 10,000 to 1?

It's like the Paul Stein who bought a house on Cherry not too far from where Paul Stine was murdered. What would those odds be?

Ed: You make me wish I was a Trekkie. The only episode I ever saw was one in which Kirk was on some land mass somewhere and put together a makeshift cannon, used makeshift black powder and fired diamonds(?) at his foe. As a teen I gave up quickly on black powder and used metallic salts and KCLO4*, a much more potent oxidizer than the saltpeter used in black powder.
* Like Mike Cole, part of my misspent youth included making large bomb-like devices for my and my friends' amusement. Most were about the size of a golf ball but when detonated were positively deafening and blew two foot craters in hard, dense, red Virginia soil. The final one I made was soft ball-sized and the percussion of its blast broke several windows from hundreds of feet away and I still don't know how my eardrums weren't split.

Concerning bombs. Teenagers do read this site and there's much bomb talk. Maybe a disclaimer is in order? My irresponsible behavior above concerns the 1970s; in the post 9/11 era, tougher laws have changed things. But there are chemical houses out there which sell to people -- all of it perfectly legal -- in most states, and of every stripe. I even went (drove) to skylighter, and may take a very low-paying job there. At any rate, for any misguided, would-be teen bomb maker who may see this, here are but five things to consider:

1. Manufacturing explosives of any sort without a license is a Federal felony.

2. I've linked to the chemicals which begin with the letter "B." Scroll all the way down and notice that the final six are all in black. Now look at the first six chemicals listed. Red means restricted and Blue means extremely restricted. The point is that you'll need two or three forms of verifiable ID, hidden cameras will capture your face and you'll be asked exactly what you'll be using the chemicals for. And they know the tough questions to ask if they distrust you. If you figure, "I'll just order from afar" you can still easily be traced, you'll still need clear copies of your ID's and you'd still better have a damned good reason for wanting the chemicals at all. Oh, and the BATF gets a copy of every sale involving the restricted compounds.

3. These sorts of chemicals aren't used by terrorists and the information in the link is public.

4. If you don't care about the law, here are two questions which aren't difficult to anyone who thinks he knows what he's doing. You should know the answers immediately, without referring to Google or books. Which common element, when mixed with what oxidizer will explode when hit with a hammer?
(Or in some tragic cases, far less than a hammer?)

5. Which oxidizer will smolder and then burst into flame if exposed to slow drops of common glycerine? If you didn't know both answers instantly, you're asking for a coffin, a burn ward, a prison cell or grotesque disfigurement.

Tom: I didn't know which thread to put the disclaimer in so I just left it here. Didn't realize the thing was so long. You may need to reclaim bandwidth.

I also just thought of something. In 1968/69 in most places there existed at least one "chemical warehouse." In those days one could purchase almost anything. I wonder if Z ever experimented with chemicals. Nitroglycerin, for example, is easy to make and stablilze. And the price would have been peanuts. Why use an enormousely heavy, gravel bomb, which is prone to be "swamped out" when ten pounds of homemade dynamite would cause the same destruction? Dynamite has a lot more newspaper shock power than ammonium nitrate, too. I guess we'll never know. Of course I seriously doubt there ever was a bomb, but why ammonium nitrate?

Dave: Well, there is one phrase the Zodiac used. It's been discussed before but I'll bring it up again: "trigger mech." I still don't think that this automatically means he was in some branch of the military but the phrase intrigues me a bit. The abbreviated "mech" doesn't mean much to me, as the Zodiac must have abbreviated 150 words in his letters. It's still an interesting usage. Non-military jobs where "trigger mechanism" might be heard? Gunsmith? Hunting buddy? Gun manual? Who knows?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   

George: of course those examples are coincidental, and that's why I coined the term "zynchronicity." And it's just as coincidental as the Presidio Mutiny occurring one year to the day before Stine was murdered. It all means nothing. And Crabtree/Phillips being incarcerated there? Coincidence also (now, if it can be proven that he was there on that particular day, then maybe there might be something to it).

BTW, the episode you're thinking of is "Arena." And I have the Gorn's autograph too, btw (like, is anyone surprised?).
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 2:35 pm:   

Hi Howard-

How was it determined (and by whom) that such a seemeingly non-descript Timex was actually purchased overseas? Did Riverside PD determine this in some way? Was there a serial number that actually told them this?

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   

George, do you really think "trigger mechanism" is unusual? Kaczynski used the term in his New York Times letter of 1995. I've got it in the list of stylistic similarities, but I've never been too sure of just how common the expression is.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   

Trigger Mechanism is interesting. Like George said, any wannabe could have used it. A hunter, a gunsmith, gun manuals. The only time I heard it was from NCO's who were training troops!

Ted K used it too. So, are we back to square one?

BTW George, I did much the same experiments as you as a youth. Charcoal, sulpher, and saltpeter, from a Chemistry set I got for Christmas ,in the basement of our house. But your results were more successfull than mine! Thanks for the Disclaimer.
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   

Ed, thanks. The Crabtree information is a sort of an agitated coincidence to me, in that once again a spotlight is cast on Darlene Ferrin. There is not one whit of proof that she knew her killer, yet year after year this issue arises.

Doug, no, I don't think there's anything special about "trigger mech." At one point it seemed sinister but I was under the influence of YellowBook at the time.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   

Can we find out when Phillips/Crabtree was in the stockade?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   

In Kaczynski's case I was interested in the context in which he used it.

Kaczynsi--"Its no fun having to spend all your evenings and weekends preparing dangerous mixtures, filing trigger mechanisms out of scraps of metal or searching the Sierras for a place isolated enough to test a bomb." [New York Times Letter, 1995]

Zodiac--"At the moment the children are safe from the bomb because it is so massive to dig in & the triger mech requires much work to get it adjusted just right." [Belli Letter]

In both cases they're singing the blues over the difficulties encountered in working with bombs.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   

Doug,
But wasn't each man's bomb/s construction(with Z the printed letter diagram)different to a degree?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   

I guess if Kaczynski were Zodiac, they'd have been identical, all the way up to the little drawing of the bus on the crowned road.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 8:01 am:   

These are all excellent posts here. A case can be made for either side, and suspects. I think we are learning-I am.
Ed--Thanks for that info on Star Trek and Belli--I was not aware of that. And Doug--the info on the bomb diagrams is also informing.

More Z-nicity--Some researchers feel Z watched The Exorcist at the Northpointe Theatre. This is also near the Presidio.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   

Dave, it also just happened to be the only place in the city it was playing, if Yellow Book is to be believed (Zodiac, p. 183), so that is zynchronicity.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 8:31 pm:   

Just want to post this link here, because "Soldiers In Revolt" may have some Presidio Mutiny details in it. This is a bud of mine from grade school in the Poconos!
http://www.fourthfreedom.org/Applications/cms.php? page_id=74#dc
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:16 am:   

crabtree2
C:\mysettings\mydocuments\crabtree2.jpg


He was in the stockade at PSF, perhaps during the Mutiny! He needs further scrutiny. An artist's rendition of how he looked in the 80's, compared to a high school pic.

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