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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:51 am:   

Okay, that composite has been bugging me for the longest time. First, lots of things were out of alignment. Next, for such a heavy set guy, why is this guy so thin? Anyway, in my other life I'm an artist so I thought I'd play around with it. Here you go:

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?album=4&pos=3
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:13 am:   

Interesting Kevin. What leads you to believe your compsite is closer than the orginial?

ET
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:14 am:   

composite
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:20 am:   

I took the composite and fixed the mistakes, of which there were quite a few. I'm talking basic anatomical features that all humans share. The nose was way too narrow, the eyes were too far spread apart and they were different from each other. The composite looks older than 25-30 if you ask me, and he doesn't look heavy-set his face is thin. So after putting the parts in the right spot, I fattened him up a bit and got rid of some of those wrinkles.

The next time I revise this, I'm going to make sure it's clear that it's a crew-cut. That, plus try to find a pair of those glasses because I'm sure that's way off too.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   

Looks interesting... question is, what would Fouke and the then-teen witnesses think? Perhaps Mike Rodelli can forward them a link and get their opinions...
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 2:14 pm:   

Nice artwork, Kevin. The Stine composite sketches DO seem to be at odds with the descriptions of Z as "stocky" but we can't be sure that his face fit the rather vague physical descriptions. Why not e-mail your work to Mike R. to perhaps get an opinion from the eyewitnesses Ed mentions?
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   

Kevin,
Very nice work!!!Can you do one with the glasses off?Just asking.Thanks.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   

Kevin--great work. It looks more like someone I saw at the Presidio, more like a military type.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 7:08 pm:   

Before I send it out to anyone, let me fix that crew cut, and also the glasses. I'll also make it with and without glasses.

The thing to keep in mind is that while all humans have the same basic proportions, tiny differences make a huge impact on the person's look. For example, the distance between the top edge of the hairline to the top edge of the eyebrows is usually 1/3, top edge of eyebrows to the bottom of nose is 1/3, and bottom of nose to bottom of chin 1/3. In "most" people, the nose section is a tad bit longer than 1/3, which I did with this. The forhead could probably be shortened a tad.

Since I have no one to ask questions to, like "how full were the lips", and also about his eyes, etc, this is purely a guess as to how he looked. If it could be shown to a witness, you would get a reaction something like, "well, he was a little more...." and adjust it. With this at best all you could say is he was a guy that looked a lot like this.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 7:16 pm:   

When someone is overweight, even slighly around the ponch, they also tend to carry weight under their chin and jowls especially as they or as anyone gets older. Could you maybe add a little more of a sag under the chin to add the appearence of carrying a few extra pounds?
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:18 pm:   

Hi,

Okay, I'm getting closer. Here is the revised with a crew cut and glasses. Personally, I think this is the closest so far:

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=440&fullsize=1

Here is without glasses:

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=441&fullsize=1

Yeah, I can make him even fatter, will give that a shot tomorrow.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   

Here you go - Forhead shorted a bit, a little fatter. I bet he did look a lot like one of these:

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=442&fullsize=1
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:05 pm:   

I think you have the eyebrows correct too.
This now looks like a real person instead of just the composite sketchs we've seen. He looked a little too atheletic before the fattening up. It gave him a little more of creepy appearance too with that slight adjustment.
I can almost hear him saying Goood Byye!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:57 pm:   

Didn't Mageau say that Z had a round face? How about adjusting the sketch to account for that?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   

It's a dead ringer for him.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:04 am:   

I have to think about this before adjusting anymore. I'm focusing on the most reliable accounts and discounting unknown encounters at painting parties and "some guy following me around" type of stuff.

First, on the fatter version the face is already kind of round, I think I'm in the ballpark on that part. After re-reading the descriptions, I'm of the impression that the hair is a tad lighter. Most said "light brown", "reddish" or "blond crew-cut." Probably his hair wasn't this dark.

The Mageau descriptions are puzzling to me because he changes it over a week three times (going by yellow book.) First, the hair is in a pompodour (hairstyle where forhead is visible.) Next it's a crew cut with short curly brown hair. Why do I have a hard seeing "curly" in a short crew cut?

Things that seems to come up over and over again - crew cuts, kind of heavy, glasses, not quite so dark hair.

The kids in the window seem to be the best witnesses, I'm mostly basing it on that. It think my last one with the fatter face is the most accurate so far.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:33 am:   

Kevin, we've had this discussion elsewhere, but not everyone interprets "crew cut" in the same way. For some, the term means short on the sides with extra allowance for growth on top, while for others it signifies something akin to a buzz-cut.

Hartnell saw dark hair through the eye-holes in Zodiac's mask. Now, the hair colors ascribed to Zodiac by everyone else range from blonde to "graying," with almost every shade between. I'm inclined to trust Hartnell's account because he saw the hair by daylight. However, the disparities tell us that Zodiac must have changed his hair style and color between Blue Rock Springs and Presidio Heights. For the latter, I'd go with what's on the composites--uniformly short, but not buzzed; stiff and combed up over the forehead in front, with either a receding hairline or a widow's peak. The prominence of the chin needs to be taken into account as well, because it's apparent in the composite, which tends to be reinforced by Fouke's recollection.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:43 am:   

The one with the fatter face does kinda look round I suppose. But, it would be good to get the opinions of the actual eyewitnesses.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 1:14 am:   

Okay Ed, I went in and fixed it even more. Rounder face, lighter hair. Nose was a tad crooked. It's starting to scare me now, heh.

Before showing these to any eyewitnesses, if such a thing is even possible, you have to be really careful about how that is done. If anyone is actually considering doing that, please talk to me first!

Here you go, latest version: http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=443&fullsize=1
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 1:19 am:   

Notice now how it looks nothing like the composite?

Most of the artists that work for the police departments are not really artists. They just pick someone from the department that seems like they might be artistic, send them to some courses, etc. Most of them suck for lack of a better word. If you want to see a joke, go look at the "baseline rapist", actually a serial killer. Hre is their composite: http://www.phx411.com/featured-articles/2006/july/ baseline-rapist-timeline.php
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 1:52 am:   

Well, if that's how Z looked, it's no wonder the original composite failed to net him! But then, I've had my doubts about it for a long time anyway.

As far as showing it to the witnesses, the one who can get in contact with them is Mike Rodelli, and I'd suggest asking him if he could get things moving along.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 8:05 am:   

Three cheers for Kevin! Those are great. This one really made me jump:
http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=440&fullsize=1
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John_prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   

i hate to say this cuz i'm not a supporter of ALA as Z, but the jawline in the second to last illustration (the first with the much fatter face) looks alot like ALA....
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 5:51 pm:   

nobody ever got a clear look did they? Its always been obscured one way or the other. Mike Mageau seemed to get the best look of the person who was definetly Zodiac.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   

I think the latter two sketches Kevin certainly look more like the face of a man elsewhere described as 'chubby' or 'beefy'. The flattop hairstyle is not exactly a crew cut but flattops could be either very short or long enough to stand up as shown in your sketch (who else is old enough to remember butch wax? which by the way had nothing to do with sexual preferance, not that there's anything wrong with that!)/
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 3:57 am:   

You know, I didn't think about it by Mike you were right about flat top versus crew cut. So went and took another look and found a mistake I had made. When I shortened his forhead, it also shortend the skull which is no good.

Alright - here is the "Final Version" (I hope!) I really believe he must have looked very similar to this:

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=444&fullsize=1
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 4:04 am:   

Why is the chin so abbreviated? That's obviously not the information the eyewitnesses gave the SFPD artist, or the SFPD sketch would have reflected it. Have you some kind of insight, Kevin, that they didn't have? If so, perhaps you could share it with us?
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 4:07 am:   

Define what you mean by abreviated, I'm not quite sure. Do you mean it sticks out, or is squared off?
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 4:43 am:   

If you mean abbreviated as in short it's not, this is standard human proportion.

Anyway, last touch up - not going to mess with it anymore: http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=445&fullsize=1
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   

James 78,
Zodiac expert and Police reporter and VT Herald Staff writer Dave Peterson attended MM's first public statements about the attack.
Dave told me he 'carefully took down everything MM said.'He knew this was going to be an important case.

Before revisionism set in here is what he told those in attendance August '69:
"He[the perp or Z]was of stocky build and short,about 5 feet 8 inches or nine inches,weighing about 150 pounds[Johns said 160/6 lbs and about the same height,weight and age as MM gave at the conference FYI],Mageau said.
His face was full[in a police report he said "large"-and 'stressed' it was dark and he only saw his face in "profile"],he was bareheaded and had wavy or curly light brown hair and looked about 26 to 30 years old."
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   

150 pounds is not enough weight to be stocky at 5 feet 8 or nine inches. I'm five eight and a half, I know, heh. It's probably up near 180 to 190 pounds at that height.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   

We have height ranges from 5'8" to over six feet; weight ranges from 160 to 225, hair color from blonde to dark brown, and hair style from crew cut to long and greasy--and many of these are from the same eyewitness. If I were a serious researcher (and who knows; maybe I am) I wouldn't bet too much on any single facet of any one description--except perhaps for the chin.
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Bargle
Username: Bargle

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   

Ok. Mike, I had a flattop up until I was 12 (1967), though I only got butch wax at the barber's. I don't miss it in the least.

Kevin, I'm 5'8" myself. I was 145-150 in high school and definitely not stocky. I would expect stocky to start at 180 or more.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   

To Mike Mageau anyone was liable to look stocky.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   

Kevin, could you please do one more. Give him lighter hair, halfway between blonde and light brown?---Your work is excellent, and you make him look like a real person.

Hey, I remember butch wax--I used it in my early teens.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 7:08 pm:   

Mike Mageau when questioned by police about his attacker said he was 5'8" and "real heavy set", "real beefy" and estimated his weight range as 195-200.

Bryan Hartnell told investigators that his attacker was 5'8"-6'.0" and "looked kind of heavy." He estimated the weight to have been 225-250.

The three teens at the Stine murder said 5'8" and "stocky build."

These five people definitely saw the Zodiac.

Whoever officer Don Fouke saw he was initially described by Fouke over his car radio as 6'-6'2" and "over 200 pounds."

The recurring theme is this guy Zodiac carried a few extra pounds on him.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 8:46 pm:   

At 5'6" and 185+ pounds, I was quite stocky. Now that I'm nearly 20 pounds less, I look thinner and several people have commented on it already (when I graduated from high school, I was 125 pounds, and looking at pics of myself from then, I cannot believe how skinny I was!). If Z was 5'8", I'd guess he was at least 190 pounds if he was considered stocky and had a paunch.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 9:29 pm:   

I still say Mageau had the best look. Your right alot of people described 5'8",heavy set. Officer Fouke could of seen a guy coming home from the movies or his girlfriends,could of been anybody.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 1:27 am:   

The general consensus of the those who can be confirmed to have seen him seems to be: a bit stocky, light brown to red/blond short hair in a crew cut, black glasses - I think that's pretty much how I made the guy. Perhaps his hair could be a tad lighter.

The chin - I have never read anywhere that the suspect had a special or unusual chin, which is why I used standard proportions on that.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 2:12 am:   

Dave, a little blonder: http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?pid=446&fullsize=1
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 4:37 am:   

Thanks Kevin--now he really looks like a real person. He reminds me of someone I knew there, but I don't want to speculate yet.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 7:58 am:   

Both PH composites show an oblong face, not a rounded one. Is that something the artist just dreamed up, or is there perhaps something to it that was based on the descriptions of the people who saw Zodiac for the longest period of time?

The second composite shows a markedly square and jutting chin; something reinforced by Officer Fouke in his remark that there was "something about the chin" of the person he saw that night. Once again: did the artist simply dream this feature up, or is there perhaps something to it that was based on the descriptions of the people who saw Zodiac for the longest period of time?

And while we're at it, where in the devil do we get the idea that Mageau referred to his assailant's face as "round?" In the reports he refers to it as "large." Here's what he says in the Rust report: "[s]tates he just saw subjectís face from the profile, side view, and does not recall seeing a front view. States there was nothing unusual about his face, other than that it appeared to be large. Michael stated the subject did not have a mustache, nor was he wearing glasses or anything. He could not recall anything unusual except that he had a large face. Michael reemphasized that he really did not get a good look at subject other than his profile."
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:51 am:   

That must have been what I was thinking of when I said "round." I'm having one hell of a time trying to deprogram myself of all those damned fabrications from that despicable yellow book...

BTW, Doug, one thing the artist did apparently dream up is the ptosis as seen in the composite's left eye. It is impossible for any of the witnesses (especially Fouke, who saw Z for only 5-10 seconds) to have noted something as small and insignificant as that under the viewing conditions as we understand them that night. I even demonstrated it to several Zodiologists one night in 2003... I had them all stand under the window the teens were at, I was across the street where the cab was parked, and my left eye was nearly closed before they noticed anything! So much for seeing a slightly droopy eye...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 9:30 am:   

Honestly, Ed, I don't know where you're getting that idea of ptosis from. Ptosis is a pathological condition in which the sufferer has a marked drooping of the eyelid which he's unable to control. I certainly don't see any indication of such a thing on either composite. In the second composite I can see that one eyelid appears to be closed a wee bit farther than the other, but that's hardly indicative of a pathological condition. I agree it's probably due to caprice on the part of the artist, but it's a very minor detail, unlike the chin, or the general shape of the face, which are gross characteristics hardly likely to have been the result of caprice.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   

Doug, I found it interesting that while I was reporting my suspect (Do to his stalking me)the detective that worked my case, said he had been intouch with Sacramento DOJ. He asked me if I had noticed anything odd about my suspects eye. I hadn't noticed because I tried not to look at him when he came into my work, but that I would make sure that I get a good look at his face the next time he came in which was that next day. That day the man sat next to my station and orderd a bloody mary ! I was nose to nose with him as I told him how sorry I was for having to put the dirty glasses so close to him.His left eye had a slight squint and the other eye was much larger ( the bottom lid drooped)and that eye moved around and around.The only other person I can think of that could have seen this would be Kathleen Johns,or perhaps Isobel Watson who got away from a man believed to be Zodiac.I would sure like to know why DOJ asked that question.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   

Ed, I know your opinion on the "droopy" left eye and you may well be right. To me, however, it is THE most noticeable alteration between the initial and revised composite sketches after the Stine murder. I fully admit that it intrigues me because of my own person of interest. Perhaps it just stands out to me for that reason?

What does everyone else think?:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Composite2.html

I agree that the teenagers could not likely have observed something like that but Fouke, IMO, certainly COULD have. I know that Fouke has stated that he didn't have any input into the revised sketch but I would still be interested in hearing what he had to say about it since two persons of interest (BC and Larry Kane) both seem to have a similar alteration (or however you want to describe it) of the left eye.

A simple question placed to the teenagers and Fouke would end the debate for good. If they didn't identify this quality in Z, it was created by the sketch artist.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   

Gentlemen: I never came up with the ptosis angle, I've never bought into that theory, and it's been around for years. I'm not sure where it originated, but I do remember Mike Rodelli pursued it for some time before I discovered Mr X in 1999. Yes, the left eyelid is slightly droopy, and that's what was interpreted as ptosis. However, as I've pointed out time and again, under the viewing conditions that night (50 feet away, under a streetlight that washes out small details, shadows etc), there is no way any of the witnesses could have observed such a minor detail as ptosis (I even demonstrated the impossibility of it, as I mentioned in my previous post), so that slightly droopy eyelid was nothing more than a figment of the artist's imagination.

Which, of course, makes me wonder how accurate the rest of the composite is and how much was the artist's imagination.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 11:32 pm:   

I hate to bring this up, but I sure hope Donald Harden was checked out. I swear he is the spittin image of the composite if you put the glasses on him. After all he did solved the 3 part cipher rather quickly. It's kinda like a bad fart, the first one to smell it is usually the one who popped it. The smellers the feller so they say. Not to mention that he is a school teacher and after all those years of puttin up with kids, he might be more than happy to Pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out.

Sorry but it's my nature to try and think of anything and everything.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:57 am:   

Thanks for thinking outside the box, Hawk. Standard methods don't seem to be solving this after 36 years. And thanks again Kevin--your art work is amaZing.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 11:26 am:   

Sandy, the only reason I can think of why he would have asked you that is because he had a suspect in mind who had something going on with one eye!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   

Doug: I did a little checking in the archives, and there are 7 threads going as far back as 2001 in which the apparent ptosis in the composite is mentioned. This idea seems to have originated with that old site (no longer extant) by Jonathan Zychowski (was that his name???) dedicated to the mysterious Peter O...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 11:14 pm:   

If I remember correctly, Peter O was thought to be a suspect based on the fact that he was in the Navy and wore dark-rimmed glasses. I didn't realize, however, that the "ptosis" angle went back that far!

With police composites, I think what you're looking for are the gross characteristics, as opposed to fine details. The cops probably want it that way, because you don't want members of the public brushing aside a possibly good suspect on the basis of a minor point that the witnesses or the artist might have gotten wrong. "Oh, it couldn't be Joe ... I must admit that the bloody knife, the bloody clothes and the fact that he went missing all last Saturday night are damned suspicious, but his nose doesn't look anywhere near that big!"
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 1:25 am:   

Peter O also kinda resembled the composite as well, although he looked way too skinny to me. I just checked through my Z stuff, and I found several old floppy disks; there's one I labelled that indicates I saved everything from Zychowski's site! That's obviously going back several years, but fortunately, I still have the old computer that can read floppy disks... I'll check it out tomorrow and see what he said about the ptosis...
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 8:38 am:   

Since the artist was off on all kinds of basic alignment things, I seriously doubt he did the droopy thing on purpose. More likely it was just a drawing mistake.

On my first re-do, all I did was take his drawing and move the parts around to line the way a normal human would. I copied the left eye, reversed it, and made it the right eye so they would match up. No where did I ever read a witness saying he had a droopy eye. I re-did the base of the nose which was way too narrow for anyone to have had. Same with the corners of the mouth. For the later revisions, I simply tried to make the suspect match the descriptions that I have read and not look like a thin 50 year old guy. That meant making him younger and adding more weight, both of which were the general consensus of the witnesses. I put most emphasis on the kids testimony first, followed by Mageau, and lastly Foukes. The glasses are straight from a site that collects and sells vintage eyewear.

There is something to be said about making it too fine, but it has been shown in the past that some artists are able to get it really close if they can build a good raport with the witness and have training. Anyone seen that composite for the Polly Klass case? Dead ringer! Someone should get that artist together with the witnesses.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:17 am:   

Kevin,

I think the Polly Klass case is the exception when it comes to composites. I rarely do a composite in a case I'm working because they rarely look like the suspect once he/she is identified and arrested. In fact, its always a point the defense brings up in trial, "hey, my client doesn't look anything like the composite". I know of no case (I'm sure there are some out there) personally where a composite lead the police to a suspect. I do realize that the person doing to composite is the key.

ET
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   

I checked different statements on the net about weight and build.I found out a lot of people said they were 5'8'/9' weighted 150/60 lbs.(I focused on this weight range)and were or thought they were considered by others as"stocky."
They used this word of others knowning their weight which was around 150 lbs. or 160 lbs.range.

Stocky can mean, compact,solidly built,thick,thick set,blocky(!)or even short.

It really isn't true weight(MM could not have known the true weight of the perp-nor could other Z witnesses as that would require a scale!-it is the person's overall'appearance.'

MM was clear that his attacker was not 'fat.'So he was referring to someone who was built solid or was compact.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   

At 5'6" and 185 pounds, I was stocky, so if Z was 5'8" or 5'9" and weighed 150-160 pounds, he could not be stocky; his body type would be slender to average. Z therefore had to weigh more in the 190-210 pound range at least, I would venture to guess, and probably at the higher end if he had a paunch.

Kevin: I don't know if the droopy left eyelid was a mistake or not, but it could not have been a detail that anyone observed. Many years back, someone observed that the artist probably drew every composite with the same basic details, meaning that everyone he drew probably had a droopy left eyelid whether they truly had one or not.

Jeanne Boylan was the composite artist in the Polly Klaas case, and she sat with the witnesses very soon after Polly was abducted. I don't know if it would be possible to do an accurate composite of Z 37 years after the fact.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:27 pm:   

Ed,
I posted it is appearance not actual weight.I knew guys that were 160 lbs or so and were stocky as some define it.You can be 160 lbs.and be thick-set muscular or compact.
My guy was 150lbs and was called "thick-set"by those that knew him.One reporter called him "husky."He was about 5'8."

"Stocky" can also mean, according to the dictionary, that one is short and MM said Z was "SHORT."MM said Z was not 'blubbery fat.'
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:34 pm:   

Seems the damn floppy disk drive doesn't work anymore... oh well, I tried...
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

Howard, short is relative. Z would have been taller than me, lol. Most men are, actually...
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 7:08 pm:   

I'll be... I rebooted the computer several times, and now the floppy disk drive is working again! It seems that Zychowski's suspect, Peter O, was in Naval intelligence at the Presidio in Monterey, studied cryptography, was an expert marksman (irrelevant, since Z did not demonstrate anything other than average marksmanship), and chain smoked Benson & Hedges (I don't know why that's relevant, since there's absolutely no evidence one way or the other that Z smoked). It seems that Zychowski was the one who started the whole ptosis thing, because Peter O apparently had it, and he compared his pic of Peter O to the composite and noted the artist included that tiny detail (which we know is impossible for anyone to have seen that night). It seems Peter O would be about 60 years old now, which would make him about 23 in 1969... a little on the young side to be Z.

It appears his now-defunct site was around since at least 1998, so the ptosis idea has been around quite a while already...
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:16 pm:   

Ed,
I agree short is relative in various cultures and other factors,but in this case the witness or MM used the height of the Corvair(Z was standing right next to MM!)to determine the perp's height as per the VPD police report.

According to ID factors this is ideal as the witness has a template or back drop in which to judge height.
Many times-as ya know- this is not the case.

Very glad you seem well!!!Fast.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   

Thanks, Howard, I'm pretty much back to normal. Now, since we know Z's height relative to the car was about 5'8", I have a hard time with him being stocky and less than 190 pounds. I'm only 2" shorter and about 165, and I am hardly stocky. In fact, I'm so much thinner now than I have been in more than a decade that several ladies at work have commented on it already... that's one reason why I think Z had to be much heavier.

In fact, now that I think about it, if he was only 160 pounds and 5'8", he'd have to be pretty fat with little in the way of muscle mass. Muscle is more compact than fat, so that might explain the "stocky" comment if Z truly did not weigh that much (although the compaction test at LB suggests Z weighed at least 225, FWIW)...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:28 pm:   

Ed--go for it with those ladies at work. They might be able to provide us with some insight on Z!
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   

Amazing work Kevin. My only question right now is, does Kevin's Art work look like any known or believed suspects?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 8:10 pm:   

There were pompodours that looked like Elvis's, and there were pompodours that the guys would pat down to look like a flat top. That could be why some said crew cut, when in fact it was a pompodour.I would think that having curly hair, it would be harder to have a crew cut.If his hair was curly his head would look larger.As far as the color, lights reflecting on his hair, could make it look lighter than it really was.I have to go with Hartnell on the hair color.A man who has a short neck, large head, who is also barrel chested, can look stockier than he really is.If his bottom half is on the thin side, his legs could look long, making him look taller than 5ft 8 or 9. When I saw my suspect in 88, I told the police he was 6ft to 6-2. The next time I saw him he was standing next to me, he was only about 5ft 8. And yes he is barrel chested, long thin legs, curly reddish brown hair,large head, and very polite.
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:34 am:   

Hey Kevin, have you ever seen the sketches at the following link

http://members.aol.com/ZSpeaking/comps.html

Just wondering what you thought.

The sketch on the left was a composite issued by Sonoma County and it was uncertain as to why they did so without a crime committed in their county. Did anyone every figure out why
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 9:44 am:   

Hawk,I wondered the same thing about Donald Harden, since "tipsters" who come forward (in pyro cases especially) are frequently viewed with suspicion.
I was afraid of being an annoying newbie, in case it was raised previously.

After beating LE's efforts to decode the message, one would think they'd check him out right away. There have been more than a few times where perps have reinserted themselves into a case under the guise of being helpful.

Looking at his pic on the "letters" page of this site, he's got a comb-back and a pointed nose. Of course, the photo is from above. Any other photos of him available? His voice is also on this site. Has Nancy Slover listened to it?
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   

Hi-

The ptosis discussion dates back to Peter O., who seems to have had it. So it does go back a long time. When I first got involved back in 1998-99, I pursued it pretty vigorously because one of the first people to whom I was introduced was Zychowski, Sr. That was a year before I got interested in "someone else."

Kevin, if you send me a downloadable version of your best shot at capturing Z in this manner, I'll print it out and mail it to Fouke for his opinion. Unfortunately, I do not have direct access to the Wash/Cherry witnesses. However, as I said to you in private, the sketch was done with a police sketch artist and an eyewitness who possessed artistic abilities, and this is what they came up with. What they captured is not a "stocky" person's face but that of a thinner person who may have worn a bulky parka, etc., and who therefore may have appeared bulkier than he actually was.

On a broader scale, you have to remember that like the rest of us, you are an amateur. If I were you, I'd seek out a professional police sketch artist and try to enlist his or her opinion of both your own work and that of the the artist from 1969. (I've spoken to experts on all manner of different subjects about the Zodiac case since 1998, some of which I can't even mention now for legal reasons.) His or her opinion would carry more weight in this discussion. However, there is no law that says that the man who killed Stine was over 200 lbs. Therefore, you have to determine what your basic assumptions will be before creating a sketch.

The kids from Presidio Heights are clearly the best eyewitnesses in the case due to the time they had and the conditions under which they were viewing the killer. MM pales in comparison. One of these kids reminded us that they were only 50 or so feet away from him when the killer walked around the cab and that they had perfect 20/20 vision in 1969. Between them, they did two sketches and neither is of a person with a "stocky" face. When we showed these witnesses photos of my suspect, none of them said that his face was "not stocky enough." When we showed them Allen's photo, they all laughed off the possibility that it was he they had seen that night. (Actually, Fouke didn't laugh. He got very upset that Allen is even mentioned as a suspect. That is what good fictional writing skills will do for an author, I guess.) ;) As we all know, Allen has a much "stockier" face than the sketch.

Mike
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   

What's the origin of the use of the word "stocky" in the description of the suspect when the police report says the suspect had a "heavy build?"
Did the officer who wrote the report interpret heavy build in his own words from what the witnesses described as stocky or did the witnesses use the word stocky when working with the police sketch artist?
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 7:12 am:   

I'm not really what you call an amateur when it comes to painting, I've sold quite a few. Portraits are also what I'm particularly fond of doing and I've spent years of my life studying drawing and painting, both in college, studying under someone, at the Scottsdale Artist School, etc. I've got a plastic skull over here to study the anatomy of things. I've never done police sketches, its true.

That said, *most* police sketch artists are not very good at all. I hate to say that, but it's true. I cringe when I see most of them. I mean, they're usually so bad that you could call it incompetence. My opinion is that they should outsource that part of it and leave the art to the artists and stick to police work. I'm sure there are some good ones though.

Back to the composite - The artist who did the Zodiac composite was probably better than the average police artist, at least he got the "basic" proportions right, but it was still lacking much.

And the witness who supposedly has artistic abilities, has anyone seen his/her work? We don't know if that is really true - everyone says that. It's possible. If he had artistic abilities, I'm wondering why he/she didn't do a sketch.

Let me explain that I started this on a lark. I didn't even use charcoal like I normally would, I used the computer. I did it after looking at that composite for all these years, seeing all the big errors, and one day happened to have my paint program open at the same time I had this on my mind. When I did this, I did it in two stages.

Stage I - Fix the anatomically incorrect features. I'm talking about the stuff that have nothing to do with the likeness of Z:

1) The nose was wrong - too narrow for a real human. Way off.

2) The eyes were too far apart.

3) One eye was skewed, and I don't believe it was on purpose but I could be wrong on that.

4) The glasses - self explanatory.

Stage II - Make it somewhat match the accounts of the most reliable witnesses.

1) By *most* accounts, he was kind of stocky. That comes up over and over. "Most likely", he was a stalky guy. So I had to fatten him up a bit because let's face it, the composite isn't a stocky guy at all.

2) Age - Was Z a 50 year old guy? No, but that's what the composites looks like. I'm 44 and he looks older than me. So I made him younger because the general consensus by the majority of good witnesses is that not 50 years old but more along the lines of 25-35.

3) Glasses - I copied those from a website that sells 60's & 70's eyeglasses and just cut-n-pasted em' right on.

So, do I think this is a "dead ringer" of Zodiac? No, I absolutely do not. In order for me to do that, if it's even possible, I'd have to sit down with the witness. Being that it was so long ago, even if I had that chance their memory would not be right. The best chance for this is right away and without to many thoughts being planted in the witnesses head.

I have some experience with this as I was once robbed in South Hampton, England and had to go pick the guy's photo out of a book. I pointed out a guy that really looked a lot like the thief. I turned a few more pages and then there he was - the real one. It made me look unsure but once you see the real one, you know it. Until you see the real one, you can be quite wrong.

That said, I think the Zodiac looked "a lot" like the guy I drew. I think a lot closer than the composite from 1969. If you squint, you are probably going to get a general idea of what this guy probably looked like. Not to a "t" for sure. That's the extent of my accuracy on it. I'm sure there were hundreds or thousands of people that looked kind of like that.

Mike, I'll send you the sketches. I think I'll put them all together and the guy can pick the best one out.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 7:32 am:   

By the way, here's all the verions next to each other. If you want a larger image, just click on the lineup itself.

http://www.kevin-moore.com/gallery/displayimage.ph p?album=random&cat=5&pos=-447
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 7:53 am:   

Top row - far right, for me.

Kevin, your work is great; you are very talented.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:35 am:   

Amen to Warren's kudos on your drawing, Kevin. All of the drawings look more like "real" people than any Zodiac composite sketch. I wish you were given the job back in 1969.

Do any of the sketches look like Zodiac? Who the hell knows...
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:06 am:   

I work in CGI, films mostly, and recently did a CG reconstruction for a John Doe case. The sketch that had been used for almost six years was a quality drawing, but looked like a Scotch-Irish man. It had produced no responses and matched no missing person's report. Even though it was drawn using actual autopsy photos, there were several aspects of the face that simply didnt match the person. He was clearly Native American mixed with something exotic like Egyptian.

Looking around on the various missing-persons networks, I was surprised that the quality of the reproductions was frequently abysmal. Most artwork was only about as helpful as verifying that the person did have two eyes, and a specific gender.

Forensic reconstructions and witness sketches are an amazing mix of art, science, and psychology.

Just from my limited exposure to the field, I've found that a lot of it is hampered by budgets and time constraints. Also, sketches function like monitary rewards offered for information. Even though they might not lead directly to the crime being solved, they both provide an "event" for the media to cover, and a new chance for fresh exposure in the news. Newspapers will happily run stories about "Reward Upped to $50K For Info" or "Police Release New Sketch of Killer." However, they usually bail on "non-event" stories that say, "nothing new has developed."
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 12:42 pm:   

Kevin, thought that the following discussion would interest you.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/25/104 .html?1166612416

There is a link in the 2nd post in the lompoc high yearbook and people of been discussing there favorites suspects in that yearbook.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   

Yeah, just made a post there. Not sure on how the Lompoc High relates though...

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