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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:14 pm:   

We were makeing some headway on this before the board got blasted. I wish Sean would post his info and link to the giant Presidio map. There is a spot on a hill west of Presidio Blvd. How about Tennessee Hollow, which starts at El Polin Spring, near Inspiration Point, and not that far from Julius Kahn, and goes north to Crissy Field area. There are many places to hide--culverts, underground pipes, and drainage structures. Perhaps posters could give us some ideas and feedback.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 4:12 am:   

Here you go Dave:-
http://www.nps.gov/applications/parks/prsf/ppMaps/ Pad-Map-1-04_color.gif
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   

Sean, thanks. You had a good thread going before.

Ed, I can appreciate your theory and work about Z hiding on that hill west of Presidio Blvd. and watching events.

Here's another scenario. He may have gone down to the El Polin Spring area. It would be a good place to wash up, and discard his outer layer of bloody clothing. Maybe he wrapped the clothes around a rock, and dumped it in the spring area. This is just a theory of mine. I don't want to discredit any other theories.

http://www.kernsite.com/uwp/modules/Tennessee_Holl ow/index.htm
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   

Given the nature of his location--near a rather broad expanse of public park, some of it fairly isolated--has anyone considered the possibility that Zodiac didn't set out to murder a cabbie that night, but instead was heading for the park to find himself a couple? Perhaps Stine did something to really tee him off, and he lost control of himself.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 3:55 am:   

I don't think it likely that he'd get a cab to the killing Doug. He'd also have to get out of there!
Something I did want to ask though, Zodiac uses the term "park". It's probably obvious but was that the accepted description?
Would it differ between locals and outsiders?
Park/presidio/Military base. Does it make a difference or tell us anything?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 9:44 am:   

Sean, I believe the area that bounds the military installation to the south is indeed a park. Zodiac seems to have had a thing for public recreation areas.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 10:51 am:   

I think your scenario is a good one, Doug; not necessarily that he was going to the park to actually host an attack, but possible to stalk or stake out the park. Something probably happened in the cab to raise his anger - Wonder if Paul started discussing the Zodiac case while Z was in the car?
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Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:52 am:   

My take on the public recreation areas is that he could blend in. Just sit on a blanket and watch everyone with out bringing attention to his self. This way he could have planned his attacks methodically. In prescise detail and no one would even get the hint that is what he was going to do.This way he got in fast and out fast.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   

Maybe Z was trying to get back to the VA Hospital at Ft Miley. He could have had his gonads blown off in Korea or Viet Nam, which would explain some of his behavior.---The # 38 bus travelled Geary from downtown to the VA hospital area, past Presidio Heights, and out to the Ocean Beach area.
http://www.militarymuseum.org/FtMiley.html
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   

VD,
I am interested in all things TN.as you well know!
Have you been to this creek area?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   

Howard, no, I was never at El Polin Creek or Spring. Just ran across it on the Presidio sites. The Spring origin is just NW of Julius Kahn. Plenty of places to wash up and hide. FYI, there is a TN valley and TN trail on the Marin side of GGB, leading to an old shipwreck site. The ship was the Tennessee.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 5:46 pm:   

VD,
You also said that there was a TN Regiment connected to this area near the JK park?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   

Yes, during the Spanish American War, a Tennessee Infantry unit encamped in Tennessee Hollow, near the spring, thus the name.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 9:22 am:   

http://www.nikemissile.org/sentry_dogs.htm

I have an idea the dogs who looked for Z were similar to these. They were trained more for ferocity than tracking. Some of these were trained by MP's, possibly from the 504th, and stationed at the Nike Missle site at Point Bonita and Fort Barry area.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:38 am:   

I found some history of my unit, the 353rd. It was active at PSF in Oct 69. Look at their Insignia on the left, especially the lower one. Any comments?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army /12psyopbn.htm
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   

I just wanted to post this because I think there may have been something similar underground in Presidio Heights:

http://triggur.org/silo/map.html
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   

And here's a related site:

http://www.informantnews.com/starshipgamma/undergr ound/index.htm

Just suppose Stine's killer knew about these underground escape routes. He could've hid from the dogs, MP's and police, and cleaned up at the same time.--The ARMY undoubtedly had underground escape routes and Safe Houses in Presidio Heights and Pacific Heights, stemming from Cold War paranoia.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   

How and why would Z have come across such information in the first place? Let's look at Occam's Razor here, folks: the simplest explanation is most probably the correct one. And the simplest explanation thus far is that Z was not from SF and did not know PH at all; he lived in Vallejo and scouted the area only the night before. That explanation is the simplest, fits all the known facts, and we don't have to complicate things with Z planning Stine's murder a year to the day after the mutiny, being stationed once at the Presidio, knowing about the tunnels and hiding there or in Nate's Shed etc etc etc...
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   

He lived in Vallejo?
He lived in the Bay area but I see nothing that conclusively pinpoints Vallejo as his place of residence.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 8:56 am:   

Nevertheless, there are tunnels somewhere on the Presidio, and I just wanted to bring that to light. Z has demonstrated a familiarity with that area, and imo, has left clues that he was exposed to military life at some point.

Suspect BD was familiar with sewer tunnels and may have worked in them at some time in Socal, even having diagrams.----------It would not surprise me to learn that there was an escape tunnel leading from the Presidio to a residence in Pacific or Presidio Heights! The Army had to have contingency plans for escape in the event of an attack. And someone had to do maintenance work on the El Polin Spring underground system.
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Chari
Username: Chari

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   

I think that Z took his jacket off before he went in the cab when stine had picked him up and placed his jacket somewhere blood stains would not hit it. I think zodiac had a lot of blood on him and so he put jacket on to hide blood stains. Also I think he burned his clothes along with his jacket when he got home.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   

Chari, that certainly could account for the reason Fouke didn't notice blood stains on Z as they drove by him; the jacket would have covered much of them up. As to burning his clothes, who knows? Maybe he did...
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:21 pm:   

Cari!
Good one!!!Z certainly knew he was going to walk down a public sidewalk and if you are right mr.Elusive pulled off(literally!)a good one.
Guess he WAS "too cleaver" for them!

We are not criminals and sometimes we don't realize how crafty and insidious they can be.We don't have that mind set so that even the idea of a disguise(LB shows he was no adverse to disguise!)takes us aback and we find it hard to accept as we have not been the focus of a manhunt!

F did see that Z's jacket was "dirty"and it WAS dark with trees,etc.FYI
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   

Howard, Thanks for posting about that,blood would look dirty on dark clothing. For sure it wouldn't look "red". A reversable jacket would have worked also. I would bet when he first tore Stines shirt, he used it to wipe off most of the blood he got on himself. One of the posters said that if the killer wore gloves he would have looked suspicious to Stine.Back then people dressed to the 9s in S.F. , except the hippies. Men and women were seen with hats and gloves.I loved going to the city, it was the only time I could dress up and not look out of place.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:37 am:   

Even if he removed all his outer clothing, he still had the shirt parts, and that had to have some blood on it
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   

Sandy,
You are an artist and are familiar with color so I would think you appreciate the fact that given the color hemoglobin leaves on surfaces is NOT red -unless it is on white,yellow,etc.,and with the dark background color of Z's jacket,it would NOT be seen or appear at a distance,and concering his pants,especially since Z may have had on rust or dark colored slacks(and at night with trees overhead casting shadows to further obscure)as the color of blood which,of course,is red upon it's introduction to oxygen.
This could account for,as given,that Z's jacket,or even pants for that matter,may have appeared dirty.Officers see pedestrians with dirty or unclean clothing on all the time.

Afterall,most cab driver murders were not committed in the same manner as Z killed Stine- with his head in Z's 'lap' just to obtain future verification markers for his letters!
The good Officers would not expect a blood drenched killer to walk down a public sidewalk in such a condition,at least in a 'common' cabbie murder!

Mental expectation is important.If you are not seeking to find a suspect by how much blood-and that's if you could determine if it were blood and not dirt,etc.,(because of background color)it would be very,very difficult to know it was blood,hence,a reason to arrest the pero on the spot!
Their expectation,and this is understandable, seemed to be to concentrate and focus on the perps RACE in this case,not if he had blood on him!Black first,then blood as it were!
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:33 pm:   

Bryan t,
The jacket was mostly zipped up thus covering his shirt.

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