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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 4:17 pm:   

NOTE: This thread was originally started in August 2004. In April 2006 the message board was damaged and I've been forced to repost certain threads. Links may not be operational.

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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 08:15 pm:

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Ever since my wife told me of hearing about this case several days ago it has preyed on my mind more and more. After reading several news accounts and gaining information on the Zodiac chat Sat. night I decided to start this thread.
At the outset I know it is very doubtful the original Zodiac is alive and/or free and the odds are far against him being the perpetrator in this latest viscious crime. But I can't help thinking of these similarities to Lake Berryessa and Santa Barbara:

1. Victims were a young romantically involved couple killed at a beach.
2. Whoever the perp was, he had to know the area well.
3. The victims car was parked along a highway with a path leading to the beach. None of the beaches were accessible by automobile.
4. The actual murder site was not visible from the road.
5. No robbery or sexual assault occurred. Killing seems the only motive.
6. A gun was used in each of the crimes (at Lake Berryessa he only used the gun to intimidate, but a gun was integral nonetheless).
7. No bodies were mutilated and there was no sign of uncontrolled rage. Even with stabbing at Lake Berryessa he was described as cold and methodical.
8. The killer evidently approached and withdrew unseen.
9. The killer seems to have stalked the area not specific persons.
10. Few, if any, other persons knew the victims intended to go to the site.
11. None of the victims had anyone with a grudge against them, so far as known. They were all described by friends as well liked.
12. Victims were caucasian.
13. It is less than 100 miles from Lake Berryessa.
14. Near water.
15. It has always been assumed that Zodiac knew the outdoors at least fairly well. That is one reason ALA was/is such a viable suspect. This killer had to have outdoors skills better than most people nowdays do.

And a few final thoughts: Another serial killer, BTK, resurfaced after more than 20 years. Everyone thought him long gone as well.
The SFPD and Riverside PD recently closed their cases. This would infuriate Z if he were still alive. Plus, BTK, an imitator, has returned and is now getting all the press coverage. Several strong motives for Z to come out of retirement.
My wife pointed out that at Lake Berryessa and probably Santa Barbara Zodiac liked to control and terrify his victims before killing them which would seem different. But she said, "Now he'd be old and could not take such a chance, he'd go for the quick kill, shooting them in their sleep".
And finally, I am a typical scientific and sceptical fanatic, demanding only facts. But somehow, even all the way out here in Oklahoma, this new crime just 'feels' like Zodiac.
As I said at the beginning, it is very unlikely that this could be the work of the original Zodiac. But DAMN!



Peter_h
Username: Peter_h

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 08:27 pm:

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Its also about 10 miles from Salt Point


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 09:22 pm:

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Oklahoma Mike: You're right. It DOES have the eerie feeling of a Zodiac slaughter. The innocent young couple, killed senselessly while in a secluded romantic spot sounds exactly like Zodiac! Question: after the 1st person was shot, why didn't the 2nd person awake & at least TRY to flee? It seems obvious that a bullet being fired at your lover 1-2 feet away would awaken the other lover & cause a struggle to get away. Did the killer use a silencer? Also: authorities say it's possible the killer was some kinda anti-Christian wacko who may have stalked & killed them cuz they were Christian camp councelors. Highly doubtful, since the couple spent their last 2 or 3 days traveling widely, without letting anyone know there whereabouts. The killer would have had to follow them at Fisherman's Warf, their gas station fill-ups & many other locations for a hundred miles or more. EXTREMELY unlikely, to say the least. But now that the BLT has come out of the woodwork after 25 years, I believe it's definitely possible that Zodiac has been around himself.
Stay tuned.........


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 09:53 pm:

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It certainly does resemble SB more than anything, and if Z was the perp (which I doubt), he'd be around 70 (but possibly as young as 60), uses a walker, and his arthritic hands probably shake (no wonder he had to murder them in their sleep!). The last thing an old fart like Z needs is a comeback, which would get the cops back on his tail. Personally, I think it's a copycat if anything, and if this scumbag is trying to imitate Z, we might expect another murder followed by a letter (or 3)...


Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:22 pm:

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Oklahoma Mike,

Thanks for posting this. I've also felt this crime was very "Z-like" since first hearing about it; although I haven't put as much thought into it as you have judging by your enumeration - nice job.




Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:30 am:

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Ed, thanks for the response. Like you, I think it far more likely to be a copycat than the actual Z. However, age would not rule it out. In my work I see many people in their 60's and early 70's who have had knee or hip replacement and aftaer a long recovery quite a few get around well enough to commit such a crime. And shooting is one of the last skills to go as a person ages. To wit, the oldest member of this USA olympic team is a 52 year old retired police chief on the pistol team.
One bit of information which decreases this being Z or even a copycat, there is evidently a possible link to a very similar crime in Arizona, which would be out of the old Z's comfort area.


Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:41 am:

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I, too, was struck by the Zimilarities...however, I feel it's more likely a copycat (in fact, I'll be surprised if the killer is NOT someone who admires Zodiac) than Z, for reasons already discussed. Still, I think it's a possibility, though unlikely.

Victor, if this killer shot one immediately after another, the second person may have woken up, but would not have had time to get out of his/her sleeping bag and run. I think you make an excellent arguement for this being a crime committed by a stranger, rather than by someone who knew the victims.


Rachel_orsini
Username: Rachel_orsini

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 01:52 pm:

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Appears the authorities are now looking into the possibilty of a hate crime. My first reaction was Z - as soon as I read the words couple, beach and shooting. With the renewed interest in BTK, seems plausible someone is trying to stir up some thoughts of Zodiac.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/23/crime.counse lors.reut/index.html

Muskogee - I agree with you. I also expect to hear some connection to a fan of Z.

By the way, has anyone read or heard any media reports actually mentioning Zodiac in relation to this crime? I would think by now, someone has said something but have not had any like finding it...

Rachel


Ryan Olesin
Username: Ryan_olesin

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:29 pm:

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Its an interesting story but lets put it in perspective, Zodiac does not have a 50 year copyright on random couple killings.


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:44 pm:

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Thanks for all reponses, especially with any new information. I am totally limited to the internet to finding out any news about this case.
However, I don't buy the hate-crime angle. It is far fetched that somebody who hates christians enough to kill them would have happened onto them, recognized a hate target, AND followed them secretely to the beach to kill them. Until I see evidence, the police hate-crime theory to me translates as: "We have almost no forensic evidence, no witnesses, no leads, we are stuck. Hey, it's a hate crime".
Nothe this opinion of mine has no bearing on whether or not Zodiac could be involved.
Although I could add no. 16 to my list of similarities: Police in the case are totally baffled, have no leads and are clueless (pun intended). Whether Z, a copycat or other, this was a serial killing.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:57 pm:

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If they occurred today, both the Faraday-Jensen and Shepherd-Hartnell attacks would probably be labeled "hate crimes," as both couples were involved with a church.


John Prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:15 am:

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Recognizing a person of a particular religion is not like recognizing a Chinese guy or an African American guy. IMHO this wasnt a hate crime. I agree with Oklahoma Mike: "it was a serial killing."
As far as it being a Zodiac copy cat, I just dont know. I mean killers usually try to find or get their victims to an isolated place anyway so I can believe it to be a distinct possibility that whomever the perpetrator is wasnt attempting to copy cat anyone. Though I find it to be equally likely that the unsub was "copy catting"; there are a startling number of similarities.

Hmmmm, boy. Nothing like riding the fence, eh?


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:08 am:

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This couple was soon to be married, as were Robert Domingos and Linda Evans, although SB isn't a definite Z crime. Still, the similarities with SB are clear but as of now it seems as though this was a "wrong time, wrong place" tragedy. And a stone cold one, at that.


Daemonicus
Username: Daemonicus

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:06 am:

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This case is remarkably similar to the unsolved murder of Joyce and Johnny Swindle that occurred in San Diego circa February 1964, which several investigators including O.J. Reid and Les Lundblad theorized were the work of Zodiac.


Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:03 am:

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I, too, doubt the hate-crime angle, if for no other reason, because it would be very difficult to follow these two without being noticed (as Victor pointed out) and Christians aren't necessarily recognizable as such (as John pointed out).

However, I don't totally dismiss the idea in the context of a Z-like crime. I can certainly see Z or anyone copying Z, being anti-Christian. It's the majority religion in this country and (IMO) said person would see Christians as "the man." Still, I think if the victims' faith has anything to do with the case, I believe it was most likely an accidental finding which angered the killer (seeing crosses around their necks or observing the couple praying, for example), rather than the primary motivation for targeting the couple, for the practical reasons already mentioned.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:51 pm:

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Why is the hate crime possibility mentioned so early in the case? I have a bad feeling that this is not a good sign. Sure, Christian counselors, I get it; but is that the only reason a hate crime angle is suspected? I hope not, but if so, I'd have to agree with Oklahoma Mike's Police in the case are totally baffled, have no leads and are clueless (pun intended). Whether Z, a copycat or other, this was a serial killing.

Although I'm not yet sure it's a serial killing. The possibility of a Z influenced killer is there of course but Ryan's quote bears repeating, "Its an interesting story but lets put it in perspective, Zodiac does not have a 50 year copyright on random couple killings." I wouldn't rule out jealousy, this couple were soon to be married; the terrain may have been rough but if the pair made it down to the beach, their killer could have done the same. I'm unaware of any hate groups which target Christians -- and then kill them.


Rachel_orsini
Username: Rachel_orsini

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:24 pm:

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Hey guys~

Now it seems authorities have a person of interest - a 21 year old old Wisconsin man thought to be in the crime area.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/24/crime.counse lors.ap/index.html

I guess at this point anything is possible - an ex, a random hit or just another good 'ol fashioned psycho. Unfortunately, as days go by, the chances of solving this horrible killing get slimmer and slimmer...

Rachel


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 07:54 pm:

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Thanks Rachel for the link. This fellow of interest sounds like a possibility.
Thanks to Azure for e-mailing me the following link about a similar killing in Arizona last Oct. It lends credence to a killer "just traveling around":

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chroni cle/archive/2004/08/22/BAG998C ID91.DTL


Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:31 pm:

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The two sets of murders were 9 months and 27 days apart. The LB murders were on 9/27. I think it's a copycat or someone using the Zodiac MO for his own purpose.


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 09:48 pm:

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I think this multiple murder was committed by someone who thinks that area of the beach "belongs" to him and the people were "trespassing" in his mind.


Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 08:36 am:

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Hi Colette,
I saw an arial view of the area on ABC News. The beach is in a crescent shaped area like a cul de sac. More private than a river bank.

Maybe someone boating too. Whoever did it had to have been awfully quiet. The couple could have awaken if someone had come through the brush.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:18 pm:

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Okalhoma Mike: Thanks Rachel for the link. This fellow of interest sounds like a possibility.
Thanks to Azure for e-mailing me the following link about a similar killing in Arizona last Oct. It lends credence to a killer "just traveling around" If it's the same perp, it also verifies your comment that this is a serial killer. Good insight! The crime scene differences mentioned in the latest link, I hope, are to make the killer believe no one has a clue as to his identity, rather than, say, a different caliber weapon or one of the two scenes evincing a jarringly dissimilar signature. Neither of these rules out a single perp but does make the idea more problematic. If he's serial, it'll happen again; I can only hope he falls down in front of a truck or something and can no longer harm young, innocent people.






Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:08 am:

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Their car was parked on the road near the beach so someone could guess that people were there that night. That area of the beach had "driftwood structures" with signs and messages ranging from creepy warnings to love notes. One sign read "my beach" another said "I hate all" (according to SFGate.com) So that's how I get the tresspassing theory. Then again the latest is they might have picked up a hitchhiker, but I don't buy it. 3's a crowd for the soon to be newlyweds.


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:54 pm:

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Colette: I don't put too much credence into the "angry tresspasser" theory. As we all know, crazy graffiti is common at any public or out-of-the-way place. Including "I hate all"etc. Often it's even way worse. With no violence whatsoever.
And now the "Christian hater" theory has been demolished since they cleared that 21 year old skater.
Bookworm: It turns out the latest victims had a cat who's previous owners' birthday was on the 9th day of the 27th month. And yes, Zodiac's Lake Berryessa double murder was also on 9/27! Ed can verify this, but I think the Zodiac planned it! JUST KIDDING.
Watch out for dreadlocked drunken skateboarders........


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 09:32 am:

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And yes, Zodiac's Lake Berryessa double murder was also on 9/27! Attempted double murder, actually, Bryan Hartnell managed to survive.




Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 08:21 pm:

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Here's a link to the latest Chronicle story that mentions the Zodiac angle.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:37 pm:

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This is becoming scarier. There are many "ifs" and it may be a while before more definitive facts
are released, so to wildly speculate: 1) The killer is not the original Zodiac 2) I'd now be surprised, however, if the killer has little or no knowledge of the original Zodiac 3) The possible area near the attack and the "black inscriptions" (too vague; black crayon?, black ball point pen? thin, black felt tip pen....?) are intriguing. However, I think they're the sort of thing to be expected; "Don't F this place up" and "the driftwood sinn" smack of a teenaged authors.

Not so the sign "How To Survive This Beach." It's probably only coincidence but this has a Zring to
it; what a great place for a Z influenced murderer
to possibly troll? Anyone live near enough to the area to take a few snapshots of this sign? Far too early to really know anything but the Chronicle should keep mentioning the Zodiac unless or until they have reason not to do so.



Rachel_orsini
Username: Rachel_orsini

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:06 pm:

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Thanks for the link, Tom.

A local channel in NJ showed two of the snapshots developed from the camera found near the bodies. If there is more than two pictures, I am wodering if the shots depict that someone else may have taken them. The ones I saw were close-ups, making it difficult to tell if they were holding the camera out in front of them. Or, I guess, they simply could have asked someone to take it... Anyone else see any of the photos??

Rachel


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:09 pm:

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Oh my God...the male victim, Jason Allen, was from Zeeland, Michigan.

Now that is weird.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 02:52 am:

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On Wednesday (yesterday), Ed, Sandy and I made the treck up to Jenner to check out the crime scene. I'll have pics and video available online soon, probably later today.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:59 pm:

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The one thing that struck me about Jenner is it's remoteness from civilization, not unlike being at LHR or LB (although both of those sites are very close to civilization, I think that those who have been there can attest to the fact that it feels like you are in the middle of nowhere). The natural beauty belied the crime committed there just two weeks ago, and once again called to mind LHR and LB.

The site is just north of Jenner, right outside of town, perhaps a quarter mile north of the mouth of the Russian River. There are signs prohibiting camping on the beach, and a steep, narrow trail leads down from the bluff (with poison oak here and there on both sides of the trail!). There were one or two cars parked on the side of the road, and I spotted two people on the beach below us. The sand was more gravelly than anything, and Tom and I took our shoes and socks off (Sandy had elevator-type shoes, so she couldn't get sand in them); after an hour or so of trudging around the scene of the crime, my feet were pretty sore.

In one crime scene pic, we saw a rather large rock and much driftwood, and so we looked for anything resembling that; the rock stood much taller than the people in the pic. There were really only three large rocks in the immediate area, and the one to the north stuck out of the sand a couple of feet, so that couldn't have been the one. The one to the south was in a small bay just north of the river, so that left the one in the middle, which was perhaps 8 feet tall, but there was hardly any driftwood in the area; it must have all been removed while the crime scene was processed. Tom, Sandy and I scoured the area looking for anything that might have been overlooked, and we also debated whether we had the correct place or not. Sandy headed north to check out the smaller rock and that area, but didn't think that could be it. We finally realized that the pic that accompanied the story that Sandy printed out had been reversed, which is why the rock didn't appear to be the correct one, despite the fact that it was the only one in the area that could have been the one in the crime scene pic.

I headed south to get some pics of the mouth of the river; it looked kind of like a tidal bore, which I think is way cool. There were hundreds of pelicans and seagulls there, and all the pelicans took off when I approached. They circled around for several minutes before landing again. The gulls apparently didn't care and stayed put.

We were on the beach for about an hour, and headed back up the trail to the car. During that time, I noted that several people stopped by the roadside to admire the view, but there was no one else about except those two we spotted earlier. The thing that gets me is that the bodies had apparently been on the beach more than 24 hours, and they were seen quite by accident. It would seem that no one had been on the beach at all after they were murdered; if so, then surely someone would have spotted them, since they were lying a short distance north of the bottom of the trail. It was close to sunset when we left; we stopped in Occidental for dinner, and then headed back to San Francisco.

The one thing that keeps going through my mind is that Jenner has a population of 170, so it doesn't seem likely to me that one of them is the killer. I would imagine that it was a crime of opportunity, and that the killer was trolling rather than stalking them; however, anything's possible.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:06 pm:

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The nearest authorities can figure is that Cutshall and Allen were murdered between Saturday 8-14 and Tuesday 8-17. Since they planned to return by Sunday, I would guess they were murdered Saturday night; if they had planned to stay longer, one would assume that these responsible Christian camp counselors would have called someone to tell them their plans had changed. If so, then that means their bodies could have been lying on the beach for as long as 4 days before they were found. That also means their car was parked above the beach for 4 days and nobody noticed that it hadn't moved.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:53 pm:

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I've updated Zodiackiller.com with information about the Allen/Cutshall murders, including a ton of pics and video. Thanks to Ed and Sandy for helping.

Here's a link.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:46 am:

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I'm wondering if the killer may have abducted them Saturday and murdered them a few days later, and placed the bodies on the beach Tuesday evening/night to be discovered Wednesday. That would also mean the killer left the car above the beach that night also.


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:05 pm:

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Tom, thanks so much for the pix of you, Ed, and Sandy doin' the Detective Thing. After studying them, the following occurs to me:

As an ol' surfer myself, the trail to the beach looks way too steep and treacherous to be walked at night, UNLESS the killer knew the area like the back of his hand. He would also have to be in good physical shape. A 70-year old Zodiac doing that climb? I don't buy into the flashlight idea--still too rough and at the top, the light might be remembered by a passing motorist.

More likely scenarios: (A) Killings were done by day (no one seems to have fixed a time of death? odd--coroners should be able to do that to within a few hours these days). Walking back up the trail would be relatively "easy." (B) Killer was on beach all along. Maybe camping nearby, hiking (with a gun?). Shoots Cutshall and Allen, keeps walking along the beach, maybe a few miles before making his exit and getaway. In which case, killer probably had his car parked up there too, somewhere.

Most likely lead-in to a murder is some sort of confrontation between killer and victims before the crime, killer tells them to "get off his beach" or some such thing, and they defy him. Because no one I know goes "hunting" along the beach. Which of course brings to mind, since it's sand, aren't imprints of the killer's shoes or toesies now preserved by the cops?

But enough; I ramble on. Someone else take up the chase!




Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:12 pm:

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Apparently there was another trail nearby also leading to the scene. I'm not sure which one the victims and killer used.

The trail wasn't really that tough to climb and a flashlight could have been quickly shut off at the sound of an approaching vehicle.

I'm not aware how many shots were fired or if the police found footprints. They did a heck of a job collecting evidence, though, based on comparing a newspaper picture of how the scene looked the day the bodies were found vs. the day we visited.


John Prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:30 am:

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Ed said - -
"I'm wondering if the killer may have abducted them Saturday and murdered them a few days later, and placed the bodies on the beach Tuesday evening/night to be discovered Wednesday. That would also mean the killer left the car above the beach that night also."

Have you heard if there were any signs that they may have been dragged there or possibly carried there?
Makes me wonder if thats the kind of evidence they would hold back for the purposes of verification at a later date.....

J Eric said - -
"(B) Killer was on beach all along."

I like that idea. Though I have a quick question: Does anybody recall (because I dont) if there was any mention of the two kids having had at some point an active campfire on any one of the nights they may have been there alive?


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:42 am:

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John (and J Eric): Having spent a considerable amount of time at the scene, I find it highly unlikely that the killer was not parked on Highway 1.

Highway 1 is incredibly narrow and winding and completely void of pedestrian and bicycle traffic. To access the beach, one has to park along the highway; there simply isn't a choice. Even if the killer approached the couple from miles away on the beach, the killer would still have needed to park off of the highway. Therefore, why waste time walking miles in sand to escape instead of simply parking above the scene? Walking in sand takes forever.

I believe the logical answer is that the killer was driving down the highway, spotted a car with potential victims and stopped to investigate...much like what happened at Lake Berryessa.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:45 am:

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By the way, the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department has recently taken to visiting the homes of gun owners in the area, simply because they are gun owners. In other words, they know the calibre of the murder weapon, but nothing to narrow down who could have pulled the trigger.

That's called desperation, folks.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:39 am:

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John: from the crime scene pic, it's impossible to tell if they'd been dragged there. The only reason I suggest the crime may have taken place elsewhere is that I find it very difficult to believe that not only did their bodies lay there for as long as 4 days and no one noticed, but their car was parked just off Highway 1 for as long as 4 days and none of the locals/sheriff's deputies on patrol noticed. However, I suppose it is possible that no one even ventured down to the beach between August 14th and 18th, but that still doesn't explain the locals not noticing a car that hadn't moved for 4 days.

BTW, this pic was reversed for some odd reason, so here it is the correct way (which is why "CRIME SCENE" appears backward on the bottom) to give ya'll an idea of what it looked like on August 18th. I scanned it from the latest People (9-6-2004, p. 87), which has a story about the double murder.





Kathleen
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:43 pm:

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I live about 10 minutes from Jenner, and local talk is that Jason was rather rude to a local restaurant owner. Apparantly, he wanted something to eat and the restaurant was closed. He displayed quite an attitude, enough for people to comment on before he was found dead. Possibly he angered the wrong person, either with the restaurant episode or another one.


Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

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The driftwood in the picture looks like its been stacked or piled by someone.(behind the tents)

Looks like the tide would come in over their encampment, judging from the driftwood. How would they know where to pitch their tents.


Rachel_orsini
Username: Rachel_orsini

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:40 pm:

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Hi Bookworm~

I am not sure if the tents belong to the victims. I have seen many investigation programs where authorities put tents over the bodies to protect the crime scene from weather, wind, even onlookers. Anyone know for sure??

Rachel


Kathleen
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:49 pm:

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There are no reports I know of that have the victims in a tent. Made it easier to sneak up on them while they were asleep, I'd guess.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:10 pm:

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Bill Baker e-mailed me the similarity between the possible Zodiac case he worked in the early 1970s and the recent double murder near Jenner, as demonstrated in these two pics:


The path leading to the possible Zodiac crime scene from 1963

The path leading to the recent double murder near Jenner


Rachel_orsini
Username: Rachel_orsini

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

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Hi Tom~

If you can share with us, does Baker have an opinion about the Jenner homicides? Does he think there is some sort of Zodiac connection (I am not suggeting Z himself, but perhaps a fan/copycat?) Thanks!

Rachel


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:09 pm:

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Those tents are put there to protect the crime scene. They showed a fly-over of crime scene on tv before the tents were put up, the victims were just on the beach in their sleeping bags. There were driftwood shelters nearby that the police dismantled.


Scott Norton
Username: Scott_n

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:54 pm:

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Anyone know the caliber used in these killings?


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 11:15 pm:

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I think that information is being withheld. The gun owners who have been checked aren't saying either.... to help solve the case.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 01:02 am:

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I'm certain I heard/read somewhere that it was a .22. Tom couldn't find it anywhere, so maybe I'm imagining things.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 01:23 am:

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Nothing about the weapon has been revealed. In fact, the police haven't even disclosed how many shots were fired.

Unless they get a confession, or the killer is dumb enough to keep the weapon and they eventually find it, it'll take a miracle to solve this one.


Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 06:59 am:

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The plates on the car are from Ohio. The car must have been registered to Lindsay? Possibly someone thought she was alone on the beach?


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:36 am:

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The victims were shot point blank in the head, as opposed to the Az. victims who were shot numerous times. They could have been watched until the killer was sure they were asleep.


Scott Norton
Username: Scott_n

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:39 pm:

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Ok, thanks Tom.

It seems strange to wait out a couple going to sleep so you can shoot them point blank in the head with a .22. Odd combination of planning a utterly random act of violence.


Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:53 pm:

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Looking at the pictures of the victims car,I see that there was a accident. The smudge of dark looking paint can be seen also. Tom I believe you said that you read or heard that the poss.perps car was a dark one ? Can we find out if the car had that dent before they took the trip? It looked kind of fresh, compared to all the dust on the rest of the car. (Just one of my hunches)


Rob_w
Username: Rob_w

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 05:05 pm:

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It would be invaluable if anyone who drove Hwy. 1 between Aug. 17-20 near the crime scene would call in to law enforcement any descriptions of any other vechicles seen on the road. By chance, someone may have passed by the perp. Or a small incident in a parking lot between victims car,etc.


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 04:39 pm:

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Ed: Like the original "Christian-hater" theory, I really doubt that the victims were killed elsewhere & dumped on the beach: The massive blood lossed before he stuck them back in their bags would be obvious. It would normally pool under their sleeping bags & collect. This would have been easily detectable. Even in the sand particles below. You can bet the cops dug out all the sand for many feet below them & checked it for blood. PLUS the evidence in their car would have given it away: Blood smeared inside the car. Or the absence of their fingerprints on the steering wheel, etc. (The killer would have had to wipe it clean after he returned it.)
Tom: I still say there is a decent chance of catching this creep thru "routine" investigation techniques. Off hand: what about gas purchases made by credit card within 50-100 (200?) miles of the murder scene? If that whole area is very secluded, this would be easy to do. If he paid "cash", maybe an attendant recognized him as a 'regular' customer. Tom, Ed or Sandy: Could it have been a "trucker"? Is their enough room to conspicuously park a huge mac-truck on the side of the road nearby? Or would that have stuck out like a sore thumb?


Scott Norton
Username: Scott_n

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 04:45 pm:

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Victor:

Whose credit card?


Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 07:41 pm:

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The driftwood where the police are standing looks charred compared to the rest of the driftwood. Unless it's moss, but in that case the tide would have covered that area.

The wood would have been piled for a bonfire. If it is charred, the driftwood looks like it was burned where it was.

In the Santa Barbara case, there was a shed/lean-to where the victims were put, and a unsuccessful fire was set to the lean-to.


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:11 am:

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To Scott N: The credit card used by the killer. If the area is indeed secluded, the cops should check ALL credit card (or debit card) purchases made on or around the time of the murders. This would be for ALL stores within say, a 200 mile radius. Shouldn't be that hard. It's a good start, anyway.


Mark_b
Username: Mark_b

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:19 am:

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Hi everybody.

I work at a newspaper near Jason Allen's hometown in Michigan, so this story has been major news in our coverage area. I just thought I'd chime in with what little I know.

1. About two weeks ago, the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department released a sketch of a car that was seen near the crime scene in the days leading up to the killings. The car was a black, two- or four-door sedan with a distinctive sticker on the rear windshield. The sticker is described as a "pollywog" figure. If you're wondering what a pollywog looks like, it's sort of a tadpole with legs, or so I'm told.

2. Though Jason Allen and Lindsay Cutshall were reported missing on Sunday, Aug. 15, the owner of an inn in the Jenner, Calif., area reported seeing the couple alive on Monday the 16th. This may have been the restaurant owner who had the alleged disagreement with Allen. If this report is accurate, the time of the murders would fall between the evening of Aug. 16 and the discovery of the crime scene on Aug. 18.

I will try to dig up a jpg of that sketch.


Mark_b
Username: Mark_b

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:36 am:

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Correction to my previous post. The sketch of a car seen near the crime scene was released Aug. 31 by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 11:47 am:

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Mark: they were due back Sunday 8-15, and were reported missing on Monday. Being Christian camp counselors, one would rightly assume that they were responsible young adults and therefore would not only not blow off their jobs by staying longer than they said they would, they'd also at least call someone to tell them they were staying longer (if that is indeed the case). Based on those two very reasonable assumptions, the only thing I can suggest is that the innkeeper was mistaken as to the day he saw them.

That therefore suggests they were murdered on Saturday evening/night or early Sunday morning (since they would have begun the trek back to camp that morning), which means they were lying on the beach for as long as 3 days and no one noticed.


Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 08:44 pm:

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Ed, For someone to have noticed a small red car parked on the road. That person would have to drive by it each day,and pay attention to it. Somehow with cell phones next to ones ear,or a CD playing a song,a girl friend pointing at the view,I can see that a red car could be missed. How many can you recall we saw ? If we were to drive up there again this week, and one of them were still parked in the same place as last week,I don't think I would notice it, unless it had something odd painted on it that stood out.Even then it could have been missed,it would have been missed. That last line was for Howard.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 09:30 pm:

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It's one thing for tourists like us, but for the locals or cops on patrol, one would think they'd notice something like that after a few days. When I'm on the road between home and work, I tend to notice if cars parked at the side of the road have been there more than a day or two, but that's just me. I find it odd none of the locals apparently did.


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 09:12 pm:

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Wow, no new posts on this Zodiac-like double murder for the whole weekend. Anyone know the best site(s) to check for updates on this ongoing story?


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 10:17 pm:

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It's worth mentioning that they were supposed to be married yesterday.


Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:35 am:

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Believe it or not, I've actually been around this crime scene a number of times. I did quite a bit of hiking out there when I was living in the Bay Area. Not that this gives me any special insight, but I thought I'd mention it.

Ed, just because they're Christian does not mean they were responsible. I know quite a few irresponsible Chrisians. To reach that conclusion based on their faith (rather than statements by people who knew them) can lead one in the wrong direction.

Kathleen points out that the male victim may have been rude to a restraunt owner. If this is true, I feel it's very important to pursue. Even if this couple apparently behaved in a "Christian" fashion most of the time, they still might have engaged in "un-Christian" behavior at times. This could lead to an enemy (or enemies) which their friends and family are unaware of. For their sake, I hope this WAS the case, as it would be much easier to catch such a killer than to catch a random murderer.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 12:19 pm:

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Muskogee, I know that many who claim to be Christian are irresponsible, however, these two were at a summer camp; the Chronicle story said, "They were about to complete a summer of rafting, rock climbing and Christian ministry in the Sierra foothills," and the CNN story reported that "The two were spending the summer working at Rock-N-Water, a Christian adventure camp in Coloma." It's a reasonable assumption that anyone working at a summer camp is halfway responsible, but it is always possible that they did blow off work and decided to stay an extra couple of days, but it does seem kind of odd that they did so without a place to stay other than camping on the beach. It wouldn't be my first choice...


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 06:01 pm:

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ED, thanks for the reminder that the couple was supposed to marry right about now. It makes this even more tragic. And yes, MUSKOGEE I agree that just because they were "Christian" doesn't make them responsible. But what DOES is the fact that "all" the people that knew them at the Christian camp they taught at said they were extremely punctual. So much so that within a day of their being late for camp, they were reported to police as a case of "missing persons". So much so that their parents, who were in seperate states halfway across the U.S., immedeately dropped everything in their lives and flew over here.
Sherlock Holmes says: And we can pretty much discount the theory that an "enemy" stalked & murdered them in their sleep because they were "rude" to someone. Unless they led a double life as heavy drug dealers, adulterers, etc., which is extremely doubtful.


Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:28 pm:

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Ed, thanks for clearing up your opinion on the matter. In general, you are remarkably impartial, with regard to investigating. I was surprised by (what I thought was) your assumption!

Victor said:
"I agree that just because they were "Christian" doesn't make them responsible. But what DOES is the fact that "all" the people that knew them at the Christian camp they taught at said they were extremely punctual."

That was the point I was trying to make (and apparently I didn't make it very well!).


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 05:31 pm:

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Today the Sonoma County Sheriff's Dept. released info on the murder weapon.

Marlin Model 1894 rifle, lever action, .45 long Colt caliber, or a Marlin Model 45, semi-automatic/camp carbine, .45 ACP caliber.


John Prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:08 pm:

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wow, thats quite the weapon to shoot someone with at such close range. seems like the weapon of a person out "hunting"...


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:20 pm:

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Marlin 1894 was copied by Daisy as a BB rifle and is still popular today; even I have one. While it wouldn't fool someone looking for a rifle, a person might be able to carry the 1894 without arousing much casual suspicion if people thought it the BB version!

Marlin is generally considered somewhat of an entry-level gun as opposed to something expenisve and exotic favored by serious riflemen. Still, a 45 packs punch. And a head shot to someone in a sleeping bag...doesn't require marksmanship at all.


Scott Norton
Username: Scott_n

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 01:06 pm:

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A .45 at close range out of a rifle is disgusting.


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 01:52 pm:

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Wouldn't the use of such a weapon suggest real hatred or rage toward the victims? Why would an unassociated stranger use such brutal means to kill someone they didn't even know? Also, with the timeline of death narrowed a bit as it was today (to between Saturday after sundown to sometime Monday morning), it seems to me that although it is a rather secluded site, the beaches near Jenner are quite busy during the summer weekends & seems suspicious that more people didn't hear or see anything. Although wasn't there a report of a nearby resident hearing gunshots? I thought that I remembered seeing coverage on KTVU of the meeting in Jenner with the sheriff's dept. where a resident claimed to have heard 2 shots...Does anyone remember that or have I lost it?


Metalex
Username: Metalex

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 03:17 pm:

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"Real estate agent Dwayne Rickard told the audience he stepped outside his home to smoke a cigar when he heard a pistol shot just before 9 p.m. on Aug. 17 - the day before the bodies were found. Richard Charter said he heard a gunshot or firecracker 20 minutes earlier, five miles down the coast, but he also acknowledged that somebody might have simply been firing a weapon for kicks. "What's called promiscuous shooting is not unheard of here," he said.




VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

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AHA! So THAT explains the curious lack of struggle by either victim: they were shot from a distance away, and not close up! What do you think? There may have been no movement to awaken them or any gunshot sounds if the killer was a distance removed, and he timed his shots at the same time as the crashing of the waves. But how would he get a clear view of their heads? Was it a full moon? Did they have a campfire going? Or how about "night-vision" goggles. Yes, that's the most likely answer. This has shades of the "Beltway Sniper" killings.


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 08:43 pm:

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I just checked the Marlin Firearms website. The "camp gun" as Tom listed above is no longer made. I am not sure how long it has been out of production, but it was introduced early 1980's. The idea was to have a long gun which also fired your pistol ammo. Even out of the rifel the .45 acp is not really a long range bullet, though as Scott Norton says it is devestating at close range. The lever action chambered in long colt is still made but that bullet is not real popular as it is expensive to shoot if you do not re-load. Either of these guns would be less common than some others (though I'm sure thousands were made and sold) and probably would not be the choice of a 'casual' shooter. In other words, the killer is someone who knows guns. While Marlin is a 'midline' firearm in terms of cost, they are well made and reliable. They are not the kind of thing somebody buys as a first gun, not in those calibers. This could be the best clue, as either type of these guns would be more traceable than many.
My bet is still that the s.o.b. fired from fairly close range, 2 quick shots.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 10:33 pm:

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If the shooter wasn't new to firearms but was unsure of himself as a killer, might that be one explanation for using a veritable elephant gun
and probably at close range? Or might the additional firepower denote a knowledgeable murderer, who realized that the powerful projectile meant two quick head shots would be all that would be necessary? Too early to know and also to know whether this is definitely serial. It seems serial to me.


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 01:01 am:

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Oklahoma Mike is right about the choice of 45 caliber, the "entry-level" Marlin would be a 22. 45-cal. rifle is a bit strange.

Presumably power burns or other identifying factors would tell the investigators whether the gun was fired at close range to the victims or not. I had thought of the long-range idea (particularly if the rifle had a scope which Tom's photo does not include). This could be proven or discounted depending on whether police found footprints AT the site or SO-MANY-FEET down the beach from it where a long-distance shooter would have stood.

Another thing that came to mind after my last post: The Model 1894 Lever Action is, I think, a single-shot. Unless the gun is rigged to go semi-auto (and I don't know they can be), the shooter has to cock and fire each time, which is a bit cumbersome when trying to dispatch two victims. Perhaps that's where the theory that both were sleeping at the time of their murders came in.

Ruger also made its Mini-14 "camp guns" of simliar style which became more popular than Marlin's, but I don't know if any were 45 cal. Apparently the police are pretty sure of the Marlin make, I suppose from the grooves on the bullets.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 08:26 pm:

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If the victims were shot at night, it's hard to imagine the killer balancing a rifle in one hand and a flashlight in the other.

Maybe an "electric gun sight?"


Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:43 pm:

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In todays Sacramento Bee, Sonoma County Sheriff Lt. Dave Edmonds said no effort is being spared to find the killer. Edmonds compared the crime to a double murder that occured in '91 less than half a mile away with no apparent motive. Eventualy a tip led to Alan Adams then 18 who wanted to know what it felt like to kill somebody. Adams went to a back door at the house of Oscar and Betty Man vowing to stop if it was locked, it wasn't. If the next door didn't open he would stop. It was open. Betty was shot as she put dishes away, her husband Oscar was shot as he heard gunfire and stood up. Adams is serving a life sentence in Folsom prison.


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:23 am:

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I still say the mysterious killer used "night vision goggles", as opposed to Zodiac's old "electric gun sight". Just because an actual "light" in the the night would have easily awakened the couple when it was shined on them. Besides, that old pen-light is so 60's!


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:24 am:

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I agree with you Victor, he used night vision goggles.


Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:40 pm:

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Early Sunday morning a 22-year-old woman was sexually assaulted by an armed attacker on a Sonoma County beach 16 miles north of Jenner. The woman was camping with friends at Ocean Cove Campgrounds when she went for a walk at midnight by herself and was approached by a man who threatened her with a weapon. Authorities see no connections at this time but are open to possibilities.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:47 pm:

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She's since recanted her claim.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 12:13 pm:

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Here's a link to a story about the Cutshall/Allen murders in today's Santa Rosa Press Democrat. The story focuses on amateur detectives and mentions Zodiackiller.com and other sites.


John Prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 12:08 am:

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"Whatever the case, his clandestine journeys bore fruit. Kickstand claims the deputies shared details of the investigation with him, saying they had a dozen officers, some on ridges with spotting scopes, patrolling the Jenner area, as well as two boats and a helicopter ready to be dispatched at a moment's notice."

If thats true all I can say is WOW - way to screw a perfectly good stakeout, huh? The Green River investigation faced similar unwanted exposure by the press; then it took em 20 more years to solve it......


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:10 am:

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The
Santa
Rosa
Press
Democrat
must
be
a
strange
pa-
per.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:27 pm:

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John Prisk: quoted, "Whatever the case, his clandestine journeys bore fruit. Kickstand claims the deputies shared details of the investigation with him, saying they had a dozen officers, some on ridges with spotting scopes, patrolling the Jenner area, as well as two boats and a helicopter ready to be dispatched at a moment's notice."

Even if it's not true it's harmful if the killer is following the news.




Pax1222
Username: Pax1222

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 09:39 pm:

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Hello all,
Seems zodiac has returned IMHO. Perhaps he will communicate to a newspaper and Mr.Voigt, each letter referring to the other. Maybe took a lock of hair from each victim to insert into the envelopes. Time will tell.

Sincerely, PAX1222@aol.com


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:42 am:

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As stated at the Lake Berryessa gathering, I've got a hunch that these killings were gang-related. Not that the victims were in a gang, just some bad dudes happened by and one challenged another to blow them away so he could join up or advance in rank. That sort of thing. While Jenner beach isn't known for such crimes, gangs infest pretty much every corner of the state now. Perhaps they were traveling, making a drug run or some other such activity we can only speculate on at the present.


Bryan
Username: Bryan_the_giant

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:15 pm:

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First of all, Allen or Allan from the victims or criminals appearing on Zodiac Killer is really scary.

I really don't think a person would have heard a gunshot 5 miles away and would say he would think it was a gunshot. As a weapons expert for 20 years in the Navy that is what I'm basing my opinion on. The victims were so close to the bluffs the gunshot so close to the ground the I really don't think so. Does that mean he didn't hear it...No just its unlikely that he would have thought it was a gunshot. And my last thing, look at the photo from the newspaper. How did Tom and Ed get in the picture (two guys just south of the rock)


Bryan
Username: Bryan_the_giant

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:29 pm:

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And...
Two people sleeping next to each other. One get shot, the other one sleeps though it? My wife could sleep though a freight train going by. But she still would be awaken and saying WTF over. So I think I would like to see what else was the cause of death. Our family used to go to the Russian River (Jenner)and when I was in high school we went to the Tied pools I think just south of there.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 04:28 pm:

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Bryan wrote:

And my last thing, look at the photo from the newspaper. How did Tom and Ed get in the picture (two guys just south of the rock).

Wasn't easy, Bryan... LOL


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 11:21 pm:

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Get this: tonight, one of the ladies I work with at the spa told me she and her family had been camping on the coast, and when they returned home on August 18th, they noticed a helicopter flying over the beach just north of Jenner...


Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 10:06 am:

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Bryan, I'm sure you've seen cases of two people shot to death side-by-side. It's not THAT unusual. I am certainly not a weapons expert, but I've seen more than one case where two people were shot to death, in the head, by an assailant with a gun which was not automatic or semiautomatic.

I don't see this a such a big surprise. Take this scenario: Two people sleeping, one is shot, the other awakens suddenly at the noise and tries to disentangle herself/himself from the sleeping bag to run. This is more than enough time for the assailant to fire again.

Another scenario...the victim who hasn't been shot realizes there's nowhere to run, and figures she/he should try to reason with the assailant (especially if he says he'll kill her/him if she/he runs).

Additionally, loved ones act in ways we may not expect in injurious situations. The survivor a.) may have assumed her/his partner was still alive (even in cases of obvious death, this is not uncommon) and didn't want to leave him/her or b.) may have been so distraught, she/he didn't think to run.

Another possibility, and I don't mean to be gross, but, the victims' heads were close together. After the first one is shot, there is likely going to be blood/tissue/etc. all over the head of the second victim. If that victim awakens suddenly, to a loud noise, and is covered in goop, and can't see, it's going to take a moment for that person to get her/his bearings.

I just don't see the second victim springing up, from a dead sleep inside a sleeping bag and making any headway in the time it would take to shoot her/him.

Last possible scenario (that I'm thinking just off the top of my head, and I think this is VERY unlikely, but still should be entertained), is the possibility of two shooters, both taking aim at the two victims at the same time.




Pax1222
Username: Pax1222

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 02:53 pm:

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Hello all,
To theorize further:
It might be the double hit that set zodiac off. By this i mean SFPD closing their case against him and, grimly, the BTK killer showing up again after 20 years with a "trophy" (photo copy of a victim's driver's license). Perhaprs zodiac felt he had to come up again after this. He may communicate with a letter along the lines of the Belli one, you know, he tried to keep the thing inside him under control.... Sincerely, PAX1222@aol.com


VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 02:20 pm:

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Well, looks like this Zodiac copycat got away with this double murder. So far, anyway. Anyone hear anything new on it?


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 09:42 pm:

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You said it, Victor. The Cutchall/Allen crime does
seem, at least at this point, to have no relation to Zodiac or a Zodiac copycat at all.

Fact is, couple murders are not in the least a rare thing. I don't dismiss a Z connection of some sort, but how much longer are we to wait for a connection -- a solid connection -- between this heinous double murder and a Zodiac copycat?
Don't get me wrong, it may yet happen. But as months keep passing I'm reminded of Ryan Olesin's
cogent remark, "The Zodiac and his imitators don't have a monopoly on unsolved double homicides which display no sexual assault


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 10:03 pm:

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September 30, 2004 - 12:42 am: I like JEric's post: "..I've got a hunch that these killings were gang-related. Not that the victims were in a gang, just some bad dudes happened by and one challenged another to blow them away so he could join up or advance in rank. That sort of thing.

That is far more than theoretically possible. Here's a possible twist: A couple of teenaged/early 20s guys are drinking heavily. No gang activity, just a BS session resulting in "I dare you to waste the people on the beach." I don't necessarily believe this, thought I'd mention it. Was rifle shooting an activity at Camp Rock-N-Water? The above weapons are not conducive to structured target shooting but how about "plinking?"

The car was black, two-or-four-door sedan with a distinctive sticker. The sticker is described as a "pollywog" figure. I don't believe the following at all but for the heck of it "pollywog" rhymes with "gollywog." The dictionary definition of Gollywog:

1: A grotesque black doll.

2: A person resembling a gollywog. Does anyone know the color of the "pollywog" sticker on the car? If it's black, maybe that accounted for the early hate crime angle?

I'm torn between a random or a revenge killing. How many times has one heard, "They were so young, everyone loved them, they had no enemies?" It's painful but I've seen many such reactions. Usually, a person who didn't like the deceased turns up. I don't know the area at all but is it possible that the perp used a bus? Hitchhiked? He would have needed to conceal the weapon near the scene, but maybe this explains the lack of a car which the perp may have used? I don't put much stock in the above but there has to be something we're missing.






Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 10:25 pm:

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The killer could have accessed the beach by fishing boat or possibly a small zodiac, which could indicate someone with connections to the area... & since there are many fishing boats that work that stretch of coastline, it would be much less suspicious than a vehicle parked on Hwy 1...


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 12:11 am:

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But Lindsay and Jason's vehicle was parked alongside Highway 1 for several DAYS and no one thought it suspicious, Angie. My thought as to the gang thing was that the bad guys (at least 1 of them) saw Allen and Cutshall on the beach while it was still light, maybe even talked to them, then returned to do the evil deed--alone or in the company of others.

George, thanks for your kind words. Yes, a "thrill killing" (remember Leopold and Loeb?)is certainly possible, albeit a tad more unlikely than the gang scenario where killing has a purpose, at least to warped gangsters. But either way would result in at least 1 more witness to the crime who might just confess or rat on his buddy at some later date.

As a most personal example of how "good people" get into trouble: on Wednesday morning I must be at my rental house in Hanford when the Sheriff evicts my tenants there pursuant to court order. They refuse to leave on their own. One claims to be a former Sheriff's reserve deputy (if true, then she's a crack shot) and the other has a criminal history of drug use, among other things. To protect the house once I get in, I must arm myself. You can see the potential for a big mess...


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 03:37 am:

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You are correct about Lindsay & Jason's car, J_Eric. I was trying to think more from the bad guy's point of view & the possibility that if he wanted to be less noticable (& maybe if he were a local guy, his car might have a better chance of being noticed as suspicious -- you know "hey, what's old Joe doing down at the beach this time of night?"), perhaps he would use other methods to approach the kids on the beach.

BTW, good luck on Wednesday & be careful!



VICTOR
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 07:57 pm:

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Does anyone know if they ever found the killers' footprints leading from the murder scene? Or if the sand around them was too muddled. I'm curious as to whether or not the shooter, with his rifle, was 'point blank' or far away.
ERIC: Be very careful with that 'piece'. Isn't there some other way to approach this volatile situation? I know blowing your "squaters" a kiss won't work, but isn't the Sheriff (a 'disinterested' 3rd party) the only one who should be armed? Oh well, take care. And if you go at night, don't forget that 'electric gun sight'- just kidding.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 01:23 am:

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The really weird thing about this is that there was a suspect in the Santa Rosa murders who supposedly pushed someoneone off a cliff at Jenner. Talk about zynchronicity!


Deansf
Username: Deansf

Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 12:20 am:

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J Eric,

You have every right to defend your life with whatever means neccesary if your life is in danger or being threatened. A Beretta make a nice size hole but just remember. . .

Defending one's life is far far different than shooting someone stone cold dead over your property. One reason saves you and lands you in the paper. The other reason incarcerates you for life and lands you in the paper. . .


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 10:01 pm:

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I recently read a newspaper article mentioning it has been 6 months since this terrible crime (now almost 7) and there are evidently no leads active at this time. Another commonality with Zodiac, after several early leads dried up, nothing. Nothing at all.
Whether this is Z coming out of retirement (still doubtful but less impossible than I once thought), a copycat, or just a coincidence, lets all keep these young victims and the case in our thoughts.


Eric_m
Username: Eric_m

Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:40 am:

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Any letters sent to the paper on the 6 month anniversary?


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 06:35 pm:

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I haven't read or heard anything about Cutshall and Allen recently. I imagine Sonoma County Sheriff's Department has no productive leads.


Dahlia
Username: Dahlia

Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 08:00 pm:

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Likewise, Ed, it seems that the investigation of last fall's Mazzara/Insogna double murder in Napa is going nowhere...

Has that been discussed here at all? I'm not finding anything.


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 09:51 pm:

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Just in passing, basically.


Deansf
Username: Deansf

Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:16 pm:

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Dahlia,

I would love to know more about the Mazzara/Insogna double murder. It happened in such a unsuspecting neighborhood. Most of the banter here was BTK speculation more than Zodiac speculation. . .


John Prisk
Username: John_prisk

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:35 pm:

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I too would be interested in hearing more info and opinion on that particular case...


Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 12:58 am:

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The case has died and they have no suspects. But then, this is Napa, and there are too many unsolved murders for a town that doesn't have a lot of murders in the first place.


Nick
Username: Nick

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:58 am:

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It seems there is now a suspect, or at least a person of interest in the case according to America's Most Wanted. To me it seems a bit of a stretch but maybe there's some evidence they're holding back. We'll see.

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=30993

Joseph Henry Burgess

Nearly 33 years ago, Leif Carlsson and Ann Durrant planned a romantic getaway under the stars on Vancouver Island. But not everyone believes young love is grand-- police say religious fanatic Joseph Henry Burgess bumped into the young couple near their campsite and learned the two were cohabitating out of wedlock.

On the evening of June 22, 1972, cops say Joseph Burgess waited in the bushes nearby as the young couple snuggled together. Cops believe he was waiting for them to fall asleep--and when they finally did, cops say Burgess crept up to them with a .22 caliber rifle and shot them in the head, point blank. Police believe Burgess' motive was religion--he killed the young couple because he believed premarital sex was wrong.

Joseph Henry Burgess was born and raised in New Jersey, but cops say he ran away to Canada to avoid the draft during the Vietnam war. At the time, there were a large number of draft evaders living on the beaches of Vancouver Island. Many teenagers described Burgess as a religious fanatic, frequently ending his phrases with the word "Amen."

Cops say Joseph Burgess lived among this hippie community in a carefree environment. However, Burgess did not believe in free sex, drugs, and rock and roll. He apparently lived among the group because it was easy to blend in. Cops say Burgess was mentally unstable and hid his violent tendencies behind a religious facade.

For 30 years, Joseph Burgess has remained one of Canada's most wanted fugitives. But now cops have a new reason to actively hunt for Burgess--they have discovered a possible link to an almost identical crime in northern California.

The murders of Lindsay Cutshall and Jason Allen in August 2004 are remarkably similar to the murders of Leif Carlsson and Ann Durrant in Canada 30 years ago. Both were young, unmarried couples and were murdered while camping. Police now wonder if Joseph Henry Burgess could have struck again.



Dahlia
Username: Dahlia

Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 04:31 pm:

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Not so much of a stretch when you consider, say, BTK--it's still not even conclusively established that his last murder was as long ago as '91. And he's certainly been active in one way or another recently!

Plus Burgess sounds like he could be one of those true crazies who never really burns out--think of Lawrence Singleton for example.

But it's the element of religious fanaticism that interests me here. I recall some sarcastic comments at the time about the devout Christians Cutshall and Allen sleeping (apparently together and definitely alone with each other) on that beach. IF Burgess is the guy they could of course have been random victims; but it does seem more likely--IF he was the guy--that they weren't random at all, and he felt he was punishing them for their libertine behavior.

It'll be interesting to hear more about this, anyway...


Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 09:39 am:

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Last week at a record store I saw a window sticker that may have been similiar to the one on the suspects car. A decal with an outlined fish (much like the christain one) with the words darwin inside it with feet.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 11:15 am:

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I just read this today. First of all- What a trajedy. Young couple in love, seeing Calif. before heading back East.

I don't think they are Zodiac weapons. Seems more likely some local hunter, boy scout type who wanted to keep beach free of outside party goers, sex maniacs and drinkers off beach. What a strange world we live in. Anything new on this case?

I appreciate photos from Task Force-adds alot to
sense of crime plus the beauty of area. I have slides and photos of crime scene area that I took in 1970. We pulled over at same spot on Rt. 1. Looks much the same as did 35 years ago with driftwood and rocks at mouth of Russian River. We took trip up Coast Highway, had dinner at some place called Sea Ranch, then went up to Ft. Bragg and turned inland to Willits for the night.
Next day, came down over high mountain by Calistoga and went home thru Napa to Vallejo.

This case hits the heart, because we also went to Coloma and camped, fished American River in 72. When I worked in SF, some of co-workers would meet in Guerneyville for dinner on weekends.


Mark_b
Username: Mark_b

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:34 pm:

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The anniversary of these murders is coming up, and the local paper (where I am employed) near Jason Allen's hometown will be publishing a couple of stories Sunday 8/14 on the crime, including an interview with Allen's parents. Our cops reporter also spoke with detectives investigating the case.

http://www.hollandsentinel.com


Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 01:19 am:

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I find it interesting that this crime was committed following SFPD's closing of the Z case and right on top of the BTK resurfacing.

Ironically, with the capture of Dennis Rader and the insight into the mind of a serial killer he has provided came the increase in probability of the Cutshall/Allen case as a Z crime.

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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 06:50 pm:

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Santa Rosa Press Democrat
Sunday, Aug. 14, 2005
Unsolved, but not forgotten


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:24 pm:

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On the big pic of crime scene, posted Sept. of last year, Is that starfish on the rock under helicopter?

Maybe the shooter was already there when they arrived, and couple didn't see him! He could have been "dug in" in that big pile of driftwood behind the sleeping bags.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:11 am:

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Does anyone know what kind of animals frequent the area there that would be suitable for poachers to go after? Raccoon, seal, pelicans or other birds, salmon going up Russian River, deer, shark? With caliber of weapon, seems like person may have been stalking some thing hard to kill with .22(if he wasn't initially stalking people). Taxidermists in area may be aware of some unusual trophy brought in!

I can see between 10-20 beer cans and bottles in the sand on that big pic. Not to say victims were drinking. It looks like a local party, fishing, hunting, drinking spot!


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:33 pm:

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Tom--interesting article in Santa Rosa paper.

Someone could have come down Russian River in canoe and approached scene along surf line to eliminate tracks.


Ed Neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:39 pm:

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Perhaps, but they were sleeping near the base of the cliff, maybe 100 feet from the surf. The perp would still have left tracks.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:27 pm:

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I don't know Ed. With starfish on E. side of that rock, and visible tide lines closer to sleeping bags, and with driftwood, there may not have been any tracks left. This couple spent one night there, in their whole lives. They had no knowledge of tides, local mores, or local grudges. Of course, shooter could have come from above. Who goes out trolling with .45 cal. Marlin Rifle? I'd bet that in whole USA, .45 cal. Marlin Rifle killings would amount to maybe 1 or 2 cases!

I just want to solve this, and give relatives, and especially parents, peace of mind. We posters can help solve this, and I wish more posters would help! This case is a disgrace to the State of California, in my opinion.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 07:46 pm:

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Re the Fish Head Beach crime scene pic again from Aug 2004.---Ed-I'd bet if you went there just as tide was receding, and dug around that big rock, you could find some nice clams!

What did those 4 guys north of the rock find? Looks like something important.

Look south of the rock, where surf line and kelp is. Someone could have walked from surf to that driftwood, stayed on driftwood without leaving tracks in sand, and go all way over to sleeping bags!!

Do starfish have any intrinsic value to the locals there?

Looking at driftwood south of big rock, It's almost arranged like boat docking area. Could someone have docked there that night? Anything's possible. Maybe someone was killing California Grey Whales and cutting them up there.

It took us 36 years to pinpoint exact location of Zodiac Island. Let's be aggressive and pinpoint this site now(btw-where's Matt?) We need some kind of marker, plaque or ID coordinates to permanently mark this. Couple things are for sure--It wasen't Ted K., Bruce Davis, Manson, Bundy, Carpenter, Rader, ALA, Rick Marshall, or such people.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 05:35 pm:

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Just one more observation on that big pic. That big rock is visible far out to sea, even at night if full moon and clear sky. The driftwood to south of rock seems to be arranged as some kind of boat or amphibious vehicle dock. Have you seen much driftwood sawed off evenly like that? And it's all the same type of wood.

Could this spot have been a rendezvous for importation of illegal aliens or drugs? Victims just in wrong spot at wrong time, and some yahoo thought they had to be eliminated?

This case has earmarks of need for special funds from Sacramento or Washington to solve it!!


Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 06:24 pm:

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If someone was using that area for clandestine illegal activity like drugs, fish poaching, illegal aliens etc.. which I'm sure has probably been the remote site of many such activities, the perpetrators wouldn't just shoot them and leave the bodies laying there to create a massive investigation that would effectively shut down there operations for a while.
They might kill them yes, but at least toss the bodies in the water so the current could take them away from the spot. They would also get the keys to the car and move that away from the spot with their camping gear.
Someone stood over them while they were in their sleeping bags and fired into their heads with a .45 caliber Marlin semi-automatic rifle.
There must be some reason that the late 80's early 90's sedan with peeling tint on the windows and a white decal of an evolving pollywog on the right rear window is a vehicle of interest. Police must have some information from a reliable witness or witnesses that saw that vehicle parked in the lot next to the Cutshall-Allen vehicle.



Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 07:20 pm:

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Johno-you bring up some good points.

However, if they tossed bodies in water, they would just wash back up on beach again, or wash up near that inlet/outlet to Russian River.

It could also indicate someone in a hurry to get their contraband down 101 or 1 to SF and become nameless! Maybe they didn't know where car was. I know it sounds sick, they may have been in such a hurry to not worry about camping gear, just waste them and get to their Payoff, goal.

I still think case deserves special funding!! It is our border, and 2 innocent people paid for it with their lives!


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 05:19 pm:

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I can't help thinking about what Ed said in his photo section--" What a beautiful spot for something like this to happen". Why not make this a State Park or Preserve? It is beautiful, and you could preserve area, say 5-10 miles north, down to and including , and past, mouth of Russian River. ALLEN/CUTSHALL PARK. That whole area there is of rare beauty, and will be hard to find places like this in 5-10 years. Would be suiting Memorial to young couple.


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 08:23 pm:

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Tom, thanks for the link to the story. I've been preoccupied with 83703 (killer formerly known as btk) for the past week and am just catching up. I feel I neglected this thread after starting it almost a year ago!
My wife and I were actually just discussing this case at lunch today. She believes it is the original Z. I am becoming more and more suspicious that could be the case. A year ago I listed the similarities to Z crimes and concluded possible but doubtful. I continue to doubt. Later tonight I will research the other case mentioned in the article. It sure sounds like the same signature AND MO to me. A couple shot to death in sleeping bags evidently while sleeping in a deserted camping area with no witnesses. Police quoted don't think so, but amazing what linkage blindness can do. Just like in Wichita, because the crimes were 6 years apart, there could be no possiblity that Marine Hedge and Dee Davis' murders would likely be connected. It mattered not that they lived just over 2 miles apart (I've been there)and were both middle aged women killed in their homes while alone, death by strangulation, and bodies were transported and left alongside country roads nude or semi-nude. Like I said, linkage blindness is amazing stuff!


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 01:47 am:

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This sort of offender is more in keeping with the 1963 Santa Barbara killer.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 01:59 am:

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Meant to add. Stalking in the 1963 case is the only Z possible crime involving stalking, I think. Just as likely he had seen the couple a few times before. Without knowing their names. But it was a Tuesday, the killer does seem to have some inside information. This makes a stalker more likely, but still doesn't necessarily mean he knew his victims by name. He may have known their patterns which would be even more telling.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 08:15 pm:

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I'd like more info on the guy from Healdsburg who worked with them in Coloma. Was he an equal, a supervisor or what? What exactly did Jason and Lindsay do at the River-guide rafts-help setting up campsites-lead hikes on trails? Who paid them, and were any pay vouchers found at Fish Head Beach?


Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 07:05 pm:

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George, The Sheppard/Hartnell case involved stalking. The Ferrin case involved stalking prior to her actual murder.

Highly possible Faraday/Jensen were stalked, this based on the Crow incident earlier in the evening and also the way Faraday and Jensen were forced from the vehicle.

If anything I think the stalking angle strengthens the case of Domingos/Edwards being Z victims.

Z liked to stalk his prey and kill as a hunter would, but it's possible that Z got some sort of stimulation from the sheer terror he put his victims thru. Other than Stine(?), all of the Z victims were aware that they were in a bad situation before they were killed and I think this could actually be what Z was getting off on.

Cutshall/Allen has the hallmarks of a stalking crime indeed.


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 07:55 pm:

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George, The Sheppard/Hartnell case involved stalking. The Ferrin case involved stalking prior to her actual murder.

Highly possible Faraday/Jensen were stalked, this based on the Crow incident earlier in the evening and also the way Faraday and Jensen were forced from the vehicle.

Trolling is, I believe the correct word. Not stalking. The Crow incident is open to interpretation. Zodiac trolled, he didn't stalk. He killed in places with which he was familiar. Zodiac knew lover's lanes, as a local would. Stalking is a nice way to force a specific suspect into the scheme of the murders but becomes a problem. You state as fact that "the Sheppard/Hartnell case involved stalking." Based on what? Same goes for Ferrin; she may have been stalked but it cannot be proved that she was stalked by Zodiac. It makes sense if your suspect is Davis but otherwise it doesn't. I cling to my belief that ALL Zodiac victims were random, including SB, if that was a Z crime, which I doubt. Zodiac trolled specific areas, he did not stalk. One can ignore a Vallejo connection, and thus ignore fifty percent of the attacks, and one can go further and further out on a limb to shoehorn in ideas and suspects. I think Zodiac trolled, not stalked.

Highly possible Faraday/Jensen were stalked, this based on the Crow incident earlier in the evening and also the way Faraday and Jensen were forced from the vehicle.

This is a stretch based on Mr. Crow's memory of events thirty-five years later. Moreover, I don't understand how forcing DF and BLJ from the car indicates stalking. Zodiac killed both of them. What difference does it make that he forced them from the car?




Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 08:56 pm:

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Based upon Hartnell's account of how the suspect approached him and Sheppard, I would say he was stalking the couple. Based upon the statements of witnesses at the lake, I would say the suspect was trolling for victims at the lake that day.

I agree the Crow incident is open to interpretation, but the intent of the LHR killer to drive DF and BLJ from the passenger side of vehicle implies that the killer has a specific method of how he wants to kill his victims. See Z's reference to The Most Dangerous Game.

Dennis Rader referred to his trolling faze as basically his search for his next victim. While Z may have trolled for victims, when he actually killed he stalked his prey first.

If a serial killer trolling for victims makes his selection and then eventually kills his intended victim, doesn't it make the victim a person who has been stalked?


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:18 pm:

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Wrecknball; First, I appreciate your response very much. If I disagree with some of your observations, I still respect the way you present them and above all I like your sincerity. If you ever saw the film, "Marathon Man," you may able to relate to an almost unwatchable scene; when Olivier is torturing Hoffman by jabbing the nerve endings in the latters mouth with a dental pick, as well as sawing into Hoffman's unanesthesized teeth with one of those wonderful, high-pitched drills which many a dentist employs. Right now, the level of my pain in perhaps seventy percent of that of Hoffman's in this so-so film. I just returned with one six pack of Rolling Rock and hope that it'll diminish the pain in my teeth. I'm willing to trade a possible hangover (and beer hangovers are the worst) for a few relatively pain-free hours. As a recovering alky, I shouldn't be drinking, but it's only a six pack and what's more, I don't care. Pain will make one do all sorts of things. (I also happen to like Rolling Rock. Genesse 12 Horse Ale is better still, but I was unable to obtain it.)

I understand your point about LB. I see Zodiac as creeping up and hiding behind trees more than anything else; he obviously didn't want the couple to see him. I don't know that this qualifies as stalking.

I, like millions of "school children," read TMDG. I don't know that I was ever a "nice target," but perhaps I was. I don't quite understand the Zodiac firing at the car to get DF and BLJ out of it, per
"The Most Dangerous Game." I'm not suggesting that your point is frivolous; I simply don't recall the passage which seems to connect a mixed couple being forced from a car in the original story.

All serial killers are different. Rader is a sexual sadist, Zodiac isn't. (Definitions are per Hazelwood.) It would appear that both Rader's and Zodiac's trolling phase were done exclusively for locales (Zodiac) or residences (Rader) which contained victims or potential victims. Zodiac certainly didn't stalk Paul Stine and considering the vallejo settings of the DF/BLJ attack, as well as the MM/DF attack, it seems that Zodiac was more concerned with known areas where young folks gathered and played hide the salami for a bit. I'd bet that Z had a first rate set of binoculors and espied couples who were enjoying an act of coitus or the situation they were in lent itself to such a conclusion on Z's part. (I have a strong belief that the Zodiac was a virgin; many reasons but the solved three-part cryptogram cinches it for me - "...rocks off with a girl."

At any rate, I still don't know about stalking. Stalking is something a different Z suspect, who won't be named, seemed to do a great deal, even moving to be near the woman of his ingrained fantasies. There are probably different definitions of stalking, but of the four definite Z attacks, I just don't see it.

I think that Z trolled primarily to find out or to re-establish areas where flirters (lame Mikado allusion) tended to gather on Friday and Saturday nights. This makes things paradoxical in at least one sense: the LHR scene probably would never have advanced past the "necking" stage and BRS was entirely non-sexual. But to Zodiac, young couples in these locations meant only one thing: young men and women enjoying themselves, and that meant death if the craven Zodiac got wind of it.

Trolling for victims. My belief is simply that once an area where it is obvious that hanky-panky was afoot, would have been good enough for the Zodiac. I don't believe he personally knew any of his victims. Perhaps he saw Dee at the IHOP but that's about as close as it gets. Zodiac, I think, was, on the nights of his attacks, prepared to attack anyone who appeared in the "sex areas" as Z probably considered them. If Z is a stalker, that meams he is fixated on the female. By extension, let's say he was obssessed with Dee. Well, if a couple other than MM and DF showed up first, would Zodiac have spared them, as he wanted to wait for Dee? I don't think so. His victims were random, IMO.



Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

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I think Mr. Crow and his girlfriend were two very lucky people. He had the good sense to get out of that turnoff area before the guy in the light-colored Chevrolet had a chance to hem him in.



Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:26 am:

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George, how can you be sure that Zodiac didn't stalk Stine?
We know Zodiac had a car, so what is he doing riding around in a cab? Did he get it in his mind to kill a cab driver, any cab driver, or did he target Stine in particular? How would anyone know?
He could have ridden in several cabs over a period of days to get the feel as to how he was going to kill a cab driver and may have even been a rider in Stine's cab previous to that night and picked him and his cab.
Zodiac's car could have been parked nearby the killing scene and after he walked to his car and hopped in and drove home.
I'm not neccesarily saying that he picked out Stine as his victim ahead of time but he could have. He could have observed Stine's cab route and movements for days or weeks and waited downtown for where he knew his cab would be and when the opportunity came when Stine had no other passengers he hailed that cab.
Zodiac could have left his own car downtown and treked to a location far enough away from the murder scene and then took another cab or a bus to get back to his car after killing Stine.
If he didn't stalk Stine or target him in particular he certainly could have stalked the cabs in general and may have even ridden a few practice runs to various areas in cabs.
I'm sure he didn't just hail a cab while stranded downtown one night and pull out his gun and shoot the driver. This sounds too planned out. Having the gun, tearing off a piece of the shirt and probably having some bag with him to put the bloody shirt piece in, wiping down the cab for fingerprints, calmly walking off into the night.


Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:45 am:

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Doug,
You are right!
Crow finally got the police report of his LHR incident.FYI


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:36 am:

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I, the Pathetic Profiler, would like to wade in:

I see these as territorial killings by an unstable local. He did not want anybody invading "his" property. He didn't want a bunch of campers, etc. to start hanging around his beach. The gun used indicates to me that he is a hunter and is very possessive about property that he, in his mind, has claimed as his own.


Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 02:25 pm:

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Johno, if you look at the first wanted poster, you'll see that there had been a recent rash of taxicab robberies preceding the Stine event. I don't think it unlikely that Zodiac took advantage of this, thinking that whatever cab driver he flagged down at the time would also be aware of those robberies. Zodiac might well have faked a robbery, in which Stine played along, thinking (like Hartnell and Shepard) that he was only going to be robbed--a facile way of getting a willing victim without having to entail too much risk.

Howard, the Crow e-mail is yet another instance where you've done a great service to the rest of us in tracking down vital information. I appreciate that.


Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 03:00 pm:

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Doug,
Thanks sir.Your comments to Johno are-in my view- sound in the light of the S.F.setting in 1969.
Most of us have not linked or given as an example,the Z LB ruse with SF,so very good.
IF one accepted Bates and Johns(possibly at LHR he used some kind of a ruse too?) then we have a penchant for deception to trap a victim,but either way your hark back to LB does it!


George
Username: George

Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:05 pm:

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Johno, you wrote:
George, how can you be sure that Zodiac didn't stalk Stine?

You're right, no one can be entirely sure Stine wasn't stalked. Did Stine keep his taxi at his residence or at a cab company? I think of "stalking" and envision hang-up calls, threatening letters in the mail box, petty vandalism, spray-painted messages and so forth.

I don't see Z stalking Stine but have an idea that Z planned his escape route first and THEN decided which cab company to employ before he murdered. Z was nocturnal. If he stalked anything, it was probably cabs from various companies in a far away part of town.

I think that Z deliberately chose an area very close to PH to kill. The reasons for this are debated although he wanted to get away without being apprehended, of course. So, okay, maybe he stalked Stine but I don't follow the logic of it, especially as there had been a rash of cab robberies and cabbies would have a heightened awareness of this.

If trying to connect Z with any known Z victim, this would be the one, IMO, despite Darlene's address book and Pam appearing on Geraldo and so forth. It should be noted that Pam fully believed and also claimed that Darlene fully believed that Larry Kane (AKA Larry Krew) was the shooter at BRS. In other words, per her sister Pam, Darlene believed the Zodiac was Larry Kane. Ditto Kathleen Johns, America's Most Wanted even had a special on Johns and Kane. Johns did change her view as to abducted her as the years passed.

If you haven't had a chance, checked the archived board, key in: "Pam Huckaby." She still has a few posts left. Interesting reading.

As to the Cutshell/Allen murder, I think Warren is on the money.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:29 pm:

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This is a "shot in the dark", but I wonder if any satallite imagery of this area and time frame might exist somewhere? After All, it was post 911 and we had stepped up national security, especially on our seacoasts and borders. Tourist photos of that weekend would also be of interest.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:13 am:

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For a great aerial view of Fish Head Beach, go to TerraServer USA, and type in--Pacific Ave, Jenner, CA.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:23 pm:

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Spent time looking at Topo's and aerials of Jenner area today. Area of shooting is on Ft. Ross Reef, where depth drops off to 550 feet real fast. Looks like ideal Whale watching area, there's even Whale Point south of Russian River.

On topo map, area around Fish Head Beach says"MUNIZ". Anybody know what that means? There is also Stony Point Indian Reservation close to the north, Stanford Biological Research Center, and a Fire Fighting Preserve.

Has anyone ever heard about any Whale poaching or capturing going on in that area? Also, larger fish, and sharks, come in to feed off reefs. A .45 cal Marlin Rifle would be good for shooting large fish!!


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:57 pm:

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God, Vdave! I had that very thought at about 5:00 am this morning. Was going to ask if sharks are known in this area. The whole rifle thing made me think of somebody who might take potshots at sharks (didn't think of whales) or maybe sealions. I don't know the fauna of the area. To me, that type of rifle rules out some sort of gang or gang initiation. Gangbangers almost always have pistols. This killer, unless the rifle was stolen, has a hunting background and lives in the area, in my worthless opinion. I'll bet the police have even spoken with him.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 07:34 pm:

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Warren-I agree with you. I think he lives in the local area, and may have already been interviewed ! There are a lot of high class restaurants in that area, and maybe some local guy was selling them shark meat and fins, or sea bass, or salmon or some other highly prized and edible seafood. When that sand bar blocks off mouth of Russian River, the migrating salmon probably become confused, and create a feeding bonanza for other predator fish.Good spot to hunt.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:55 pm:

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Was looking at Tom and Ed's very nice pics of scene on original thread from Sept. 04.

See those houses on the bluff on south side of Russian River. You could see a campfire down at the crime scene from up there ! Maybe you guys have picture of where he lives or was visiting.

On the pics of Russian River mouth, where the Sea Gulls are feeding, this would be good spot to shoot Salmon, Sturgeon and other fish as they are migrating upstream (or feeding birds and mammals). I don't know if they have a salmon run there. Does anyone know? And what time of year the run is?

There are also Off Road Vehicle tracks coming from Russian River, past that large rock near crime scene, and up ravine towards highway 1.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 07:34 pm:

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Another thought that crossed my mind--there are a lot of wild yucca plants growing there. Maybe someone was "harvesting" them, and selling them at retail outlets and landscaping businesses.

I've read recently that Sonoma State Beach is south of Russian River there. Perhaps someone in the area there is trying to keep land on north side of River "tidy", so he can benefit from perc's. He may see it as his land, although it must be public property.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 05:27 pm:

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I just had to relate this. Today here in Pennsylvania I was out driving around in Boondocks, to get away from the welfare recipients and medicated mental health people for a while. Here I am,looking at the Flora and Fauna, walking my dog-Mr. Pugsley- and a guy pulls up in a pick up truck. He tells me he is a diving instructor, and travels all over giving classes and lessons. He volunteers that he was out north of Santa Barbara recently, in Ventura County doing this. I asked him about Lompoc, blah, blah, blah-then he says "I was up in San Francisco doing this too".

Without any prompts from me, he said he was at Fish Head Beach diving for Sea Urchins and Abalone recently. I casually asked him if he had a 45 cal Rifle and he said no. Isn't this wild? 3,000 miles away from murder scene! Guy has blonde hair and is about 50. I'm going to go back to spot and ask him more questions, take photo, so stay tuned. BTW, he was getting ready to poach some deer, and informed me where I could catch Eels !!


Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:54 am:

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Cool VDave go man go. I am curious to hear more.


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:03 pm:

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If he was poaching deer, he's got a rifle. See if he'll admit to it being a Marlin. Be careful.


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:06 pm:

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Random thought - a .45 cal rifle was the murder weapon, right? I know many hunters and I can't think of a one that has a .45 rifle. .300, 30.06, .273, .223, .22, .303 but can't think of a single .45 rifle. Pistol of course. How odd.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 05:00 pm:

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Warren- I went back there tonight and lurked around, but he didn't show up. I'll hook up eventually. Good point about Marlin.

Gossip--I have friend in general area, and he tells me that 3 people from California moved there in 1970's after the cutbacks at NASA.

You're right about the odd caliber-I have same questions. You would think a .45 cal Rifle could be traced, unless homemade. Isn't it odd that this guy would volunteer info about diving in CA to a stranger like me ? He was talking about Ventura County like it was his home. He talked about Santa Maria also, and San Luis Obispo. I will be wily and find out his name and where he is from. He has an ATV and I'm sure many guns. Here's his neighborhood.
C:\mysettings\mydocuments\raptor.jpeg


Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 06:21 pm:

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Dave, chances are he had nothing to do with the slayings. But if it will cost you nothing to keep up on things, go for it. Sometimes coincidences jump right up and bite us in the rear end.

I remember when I was getting ready to go out to San Francisco to be interviewed for the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Unabomber-Zodiac connection, my wife came home and told me that someone she had worked with for several years was now the subject of an Unsolved Mysteries segment. I distinctly remember my wife having worked with this person in the audit agency at Dover AFB, and her constantly complaining about how bizarre he was. Turns out he moved to the Seattle area and soon came under suspicion for having "offed" his two mail-order Asian brides. Now what are the chances of that happening? Two people living in a tiny town in Dover, Delaware, becoming involved in an Unsolved Mysteries segment within weeks of each other, both for different reasons? Coincidences happen. So I say, don't jump to conclusions, but keep an open mind, and if the situation warrants, don't hesitate to go to the authorities. Don't worry about them thinking you're just another whacko--they think that about everyone!



Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 07:04 pm:

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Doug-thanks for input. I agree, he probably had nothing to do with slayings, but his lifestyle might give us some clues to mindset of the real perp. I'm not going overboard with paranoia-just think it unusual that someone here in Podunk Pennsylvania would be so familiar with California Coastline. That small stream in pic goes down to major stream in area, and he informed me that someone messed up his "fire ring" down by the major stream. He's checking people coming into his turf !!

Is it still illegal to poach Abelone and Sea Urchins in CA ? As further investigative tool, I'm going to give him my phone number and ask him if he can get me any Venison. Stay tuned !


Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 07:14 pm:

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Dave, don't think I'm throwing cold water on the whole idea of his being the perp. In fact, the way you describe this guy, he sounds a lot like Ted Kaczynski -- someone trying to get away from human society by getting into the woods, and who has a pissy personality when it comes to having to deal with other people. That's exactly the personality type I'd expect from Zodiac, and from someone who would have done the murders in question. Stick with him if you can, and let things go where they will.


Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 07:52 pm:

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VD: Here is the link for the 45 calibur rifle. It was a 1927 police rifle.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976411760.htm



Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 08:38 am:

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Jb and Doug-Thanks-that is one mean looking weapon! I wanted to talk more to this guy, but as we were talking, one of his friends pulled up with a truckload of junk. They were discussing where that was going when I left.

I've seen "The Diver" before in my country excursions. They drive around in their pick-ups, with CB's and radios, stalking deer. This area where he lives is typical Whacko country. Unincorporated area, sitting right on 2 county line.

Something else he said was odd. In talking about the big Buck they were stalking, he said " he likes to go up there on" Hamburger Hill ".


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 11:05 am:

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see the previous post by Tom regarding the type of gun used here
http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/9/432. html?1124007594

The police believe it was one or the other of these. The semi-auto 'camp gun' model I do not believe is made any longer, but the other one, the lever action, is described on Marlin's web site here:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/leverAction CB_rifles/1894CBC-45.htm


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 05:55 am:

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Thanks Oklahoma-so it's definitely .45 cal ?

I checked for him again today, and he wasn't there again. And, Mr. Pugsley did not pick up a scent ! I want to talk to this guy again to get his West Coast angle. Also want to find out about his gun collection.


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 08:59 am:

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Would bet, after looking at the rifle descriptions, that the killer also has a .45 pistol, either revolver or automatic (1911A?)that he can interchange ammo with.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 05:22 pm:

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Warren- I'd bet you are right about .45 pistol and interchangeable ammo. Around here, they shoot deer with pistols right out of vehicles.

I went back to spot tonight and hit paydirt. Diver Dan wasn't there, but there was a woman walking with her 3 children. She lives in area. She gave me his name and told me where he lives. I now know where his house is ! He moved here from Santa Barbara some time ago. Has creme colored pickup with cap and Paw prints on front doors. He has another pickup too. His name is Ralph *****(I will give his name to Ed Neil-trustworthy-and if anyone wants last name, e-mail Ed).

As I suspected, He's doing the Ted K routine. Has goat farm-free milk and meat-old farmhouse with no cable-old style antenna. Probably gets free wood for heat from land surrounding area. He has big barn filled up with tools. Also has small boat, so he can cruise down that larger stream to Susquehanna River by Harrisburg. Her comment was "He's a real talker". I still need more info from him, so stay tuned for next episode.BTW, he's married and has couple kids.


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 09:00 pm:

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Warren b, you are correct that the Marlin semi-automatic rifle the police mention as one of the possible murder weapons DOES use the same ammunition as the 1911 .45 caliber pistol. In fact, they use the same magazine! That was a feature of the rifle (Marlin called it a 'camp gun' in their marketing). It was supposed to appeal to someone lwho already owned the pistol and could use same magizine and ammo. Their name 'camp gun' I think meant it was the kind of gun you take camping if you want a rifle but not specifically a hunting trip.
Interestingly, they also made a version of the same gun in 9mm which used magazines from I think a Smith and Wesson 9mm pistol.
On the other hand, if it was the lever action rifle, that fired what is called the 'long colt' .45, same diameter (45/100 inch) but with a longer case and thus more power.
My guess, and only that, is the police have narrowed the gun down to one of the two because Marlin uses the same milling machines and tools to make all their .45 caliber rifle barrells. Thus the rifling and grooves in the barrell, and thus marks on the bullet, would be particular to the company but not the gun. If anyone knows more about this please enlighten me.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 06:54 pm:

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I met this dude tonight, formally, and shook his hand. He's more like 60 yo. He's from Santa Barbara, and piloted a boat out of there. He said he went to Farralones and Fish Head Beach area. He now says that it was not recently though. He would go to Fish Head Beach for Sea Urchins. He mentioned Willits and Russian Gorge. Also told me he was qualified to pilot something like the Exon Valdez. I got pic of his house and goats-he has 30 acre farm.

His preferred weapon for deer is 30-06, but mentioned .308. I can't hunt near where he is poaching, because it is too private ! He referred me to State Gamelands several miles away. I don't think he is suspect, but interesting analogy to case. He told me to keep Mr. Pugsley in car, or his Great Pyranees would kill him ! He has Paw Prints on both of his pick-ups.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 03:38 am:

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Just remembered this. He's definitely been to Fish Head Beach, because I said "Fish Head, that's SF", and he said " that's way outside of SF". We finally agreed it was 30-40 miles north of SF.

Interesting too that he mentioned Willits and Russian Gulch or Gorge. He's done some inland exploring in addition to his nautical activities.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 01:34 pm:

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Some points: there are Sea Urchins/Starfish on the original crime scene pic. This guy admits to diving for Urchins at Fish Head. He's a boat pilot, with guns, camps, builds bonfires at streamside, has been up the Russian River and all over CA it sounds like, doing this. He probably moored boat off shore at FHB, and came ashore, or brought his private Parties ashore to party. So far I know he's been in Santa Barbara, Lompoc, Santa Maria, San Luis Obispo, SF, FHB, and as far as Alaska ! He's 6'1or2in. 160-180lbs., trim, muscular, fit for age.

I want to check his "fire ring" down by the stream here to see how it compares with logs on original crime pic, but am afraid to go there alone with him around. Also, don't know how to check out the rest of his guns. I'll have to give it some thought. I think he needs further checking out.


Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 06:47 pm:

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I went back to that spot tonight-I have nothing else to do-people aren't buying books because of the gas and economy situations, and the Latinos are taking over my block here.

I now think I have an idea what this guy is up to. Right across stream from this guy's spot is an area cordoned off by USDA called CREP-Conservation Reserve Environmental Program. Looks like it's a Consortium with Game Commission, Fish Commission, Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, and other wildlife groups.

My man probably has a salt lick out for deer, pile of cracked corn for game birds, and is luring game over to public property along power line on his side of creek ! It's a regular Ernest Hemmingway, African Game Safari setup. Get the ATV, the Pistols, the fishing rods, the traps, and go down to the creek. You'd never have to go to grocery store-goat and cow milk-he has chicken eggs-deer meat, fowl, fish, wild turkeys, you name it.

I took dirt road and peered down at stream. Beautifull area with big rock outcroppings, rocky beaches, and looked like big logs lined up in some kind of manner. Area is polluted though-county dump-farmer's pesticide runoff. Hey, but for him, it might be the Life of Riley. He can do whatever he wants. Still want to talk to him.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:21 am:

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Can't seem to get original crime here from 04 off my mind. I now think whoever did this was at the scene that night because of specific time and weather conditions. The tide was just right, time of year and month was just right, and weather and temperature just right for him to harvest whatever fish or game he was seeking.

On that big rock you can see the Starfish and Sea Urchins on the shore side of that rock. This means the tide was up past that rock, probably close to the cliff. As tide went back out, you could walk along there and harvest Urchins, Starfish, Clams, Abalone, whatever is there. The area is still wild and natural, probably containing many species not found in other areas. I think he had that specific night and time to be there picked out in advance. Something set him off to go after the couple.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 07:46 pm:

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My premise here is that there may be someone out in Jenner, Bodega Bay, Ft. Ross, doing the same thing. If not for shellfish, maybe for game on shore and hills around there.
The innocent loving couple were not drug dealers, poachers, terrorists, they were camp counselors and outdoor enthusiasts, on their way home to get married. They even got memmentos at
SF waterfront, before heading up hgw-1 to Jenner
area !

Maybe some Ass***** were doing a drug unloading scene there from a boat. This might explain 45 cal rifle.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:55 am:

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Reviewed section for 1963 Domingos Edwards killings in Santa Barbara. I was struck by similarities in geography and seascape between that and the Fish Head Beach site. Similar rocky off shore terrain-good shellfish harvest area. Both places have small stream, river mouth connection--better harvest area for sea life. Both near points or capes. Hwy 101-1. Couples reclining on beach. Perhaps someone in boat, diver, shellfish enthusiast, making deliveries to someone on shore? The boat guy would know code, charts, tide schedules, sea lines. When up north, could have taken boat right thru GG to Vallejo area, or PSF for that matter. I wonder if Det. Baker would be interested in this Santa Barbara transplant that I found.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 06:15 pm:

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I want to get this in before I forget. This guy here in PA told me he was qualified to pilot Exxon Valdez type tankers. If this is true, he probably cruised Santa Barbara Channel, took tankers north to oil pick up sites near Richmond and Benicia\Martinez, and headed up coast to points north. He mentioned Alaska ! Where did he get his training? Isn't anyone curious ? I'm starting to feel like paranoic-no one commenting on posts ! He's been to Farallones, so I assume he knew how to get into SF Harbor by boat.

He's got gun collection too. I don't know how to check that out. In addition to what he's getting for free, he's getting deer licenses(male and female) in 3 counties! Franklin, Cumberland, and Perry. I guess I'll slow down and monitor over winter.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:55 pm:

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Hi all--me again. Remember couple posts back, The Diver's friend pulled up with truck load of junk? I saw the junk man again. Here's what I think he's up to::There is a huge county dump/landfill near both of these guys. The junk man has truck with animal/cattle hauler trailer on it. He fills the hauler up with junk(brass, copper, aluminum,auto parts etc), thus he can travel public roads and people think he is hauling "critters". He is either scavenging the dump, or bringing hot stuff in. I post just in case someone out in Sonoma operating in same manner.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 07:06 pm:

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I'm still following this because I want to get the *ss**** who did that out in Sonoma! It's getting close to deer season. The last 3 times I drove past there, the Divers truck was parked there, probably visiting his salt licks, fire rings, and feeding piles. He knows my truck, so I have to be discreet. Mr. Pugs is watching him too! He has the scent.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:26 am:

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For some fairly recent pics of N. Cal shore, LB, Mt Diablo and other Ca. spots, check out this website <mac.andcheese.org>


Warren_b
Username: Warren_b

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:19 am:

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Dave, did you see Tom's other site re unsolved murders? There is a description of a possible vehicle 80-90 dark colored sedan with tinted windows, possible decal like the Darwin evolutionary take off of the Christian fish. Your guy got anything like that?


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 03:33 pm:

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Dave, why didn't you mention you were "Vallejo Dave" when you requested a new account for "Dave Torzillo?" I also recall "Dave Torzillo" claimed to be a retired cop. Also, why do you alternate between being "3,000 miles away" from the Bay Area, to living just a short drive from Fish Head Beach?


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 05:09 pm:

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Warren-thanks for reference to unsolved murders. Looks like it's new. My guy has 2 80ish pick up trucks, one with a cap, and both cream colored. He has paw print decals on both, which I assume refers to either Pittsburg Panthers or Penn State Nittany Lions. I haven't seen anything yet like the environmental pollywog decal.

I would reccommend to Tom that he transfer my 2 posts about NorCal photos to the new Allen/Cutshall site. I don't want to screw up his new site!


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 05:31 pm:

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Tom, I never said I was a retired cop. When I posted my real identity, I thought you had my e-mail address on file. I've posted my real name, my social security number, my current address and business on here. What else do you want me to do? I wish more of your posters would do the same. Hey-I'm right here, I've revealed myself, and I want to help solve Z case, plus Allen/Cutshall.

I don't alternate! I told you I lived in Vallejo 69-72, and that I live in Pennsylvania now. I visited Fish Head Beach, or Jenner, in 1969 and took some photos. I cruised that stretch of Highway 1 from SF to Fort Bragg. Had dinner at Sea Ranch-in-69. I have not been to CA since 1972. I hope this answers your question.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 05:37 pm:

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All I know is that you never told me you were Vallejo_Dave and already had an account when you requested a new one.


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 06:03 pm:

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Dave, too bad that guy is hanging at a landfill and not a quarry; you could solve two cases at once.

Seriously, it shouldn't be too hard to get info on him if you can get a tag number off his truck.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 06:24 pm:

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I've been trying to do that , Tom, but have been unsuccessful so far. I'd like to solve both cases at once-It'd be like winning the Powerball Lottery!
His neighbor is watching me now. They know my truck. I might get reported as a stalker in the area!--There's a van there now at the site. I want to get license number of that too! All I know is that he told me he was from Santa Barbara and gives diving lessons all over the country.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 12:21 pm:

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I note there is an Elk Preserve just north of Jenner in Mendocino County. The River"s End Inn has a specialty of Rack of Elk. A .45 cal Marlin Camp Rifle would be a good weapon for downing an Elk. Perhaps our suspect was into Elk poaching.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 08:46 am:

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I finally got a chance today at 8:00 am to walk out that small stream in my pic to it's confluence with a major stream. It's beautiful natural area with game preserve across the stream. Someone put up a homemade sign there saying "PLEASE RESPECT THIS PLACE". There's beer cans and ATV tracks all over.

Warren and Tom--there was a weird sedan parked there last week with tinted windows, but I didn't get good look at time. I tried today to get plate numbers, but THE DIVER keeps his vehicles parked so you can't see plates from road. In PA, there is one plate on rear of vehicle. I will try again.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 04:29 pm:

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For excellent photos of Fish Head Beach crime scene, google Sonoma Beach State Park. Pan NW to mouth of Russian River, and click on aerial photos. If you then click on Time Comparison and enlarge those pics, you can get full page pics of crime scene from 1972 to 2005.

I'm hopeing to do the same with Lompoc area, but I don't know name of State Parks in that area.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 04:42 pm:

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Jason and Lindsay met at Appalachian Bible College in Bradley West Virginia. They both worked at something called Adventure Whitewater Rafting,which was connected to the school, before going to Coloma. These were rafting and kayaking trips on the New River Gorge and the Gauley River.

I note that Jason visited the Jenner area 5 years before the attack, according to SF Chronicle articles. Did he know someone there or was he seeking employment? If anyone knows the circumstances of his previous visit there, please post.


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 05:15 pm:

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I seem to recall an article that said he was "passing through" Jenner on his first visit. I suppose that's possible if he was on his way north up the coast, maybe on the way to Fort Bragg or Mendocino...


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 05:42 pm:

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Thanks Angie. What would a 21 year old guy from Michigan be doing on the North Coast? Maybe he had relatives or friends there, or maybe his family had visited there when he was younger. He could also have been heading South, from Jenner to Bodega Bay, Point Reyes, and eventually SF. He seems to have known where to buy souveniers in SF ( I use Tabasco Sauce in my Bloody Mary's BTW). He also knew how to get up North on Highway #1 and Highway #101, which is confusing even for a local. I'm wondering how he knew this.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 06:50 pm:

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OK- this is my last post today. I'm getting carried away.----Warren---A while back you asked about the flora and fauna of Fish Head Beach area. I've been doing my homework and I've found this: Whale and Seal watching is popular, along with bird watching. It is home to red abalone, black tailed deer, bobcats, raccoons, an occasional bear, and elk used to graze there. There are many rodents, like squirrel and even badgers. There is a fish run up the rivers of Salmon, Shad and many other fish. Ling cod, greylings, and many other species of fish may be caught from shore. I wouldn't be surprised if sturgeon were coming upstream and giant pacific squid were breeding in pristine waters off the reef. As I was researching this I realized that this area must be preserved at all costs. This is one of the true natural areas remaining in the country. The whole East Coast and Florida are gone as Natural Habitat, except maybe for North Carolina Coast. --Whew.


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:46 am:

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Dave: Tourism is huge in the Sonoma/Mendocino Coast areas. Given it's close proximity to San Francisco & it's world class surfing & fine restaurants, it's no wonder... And, Highway 1/101 is not at all confusing, (not even for me & I get lost driving all the time)...

That aside, I think it's odd that the shopkeeper recommended Fishhead Beach to the couple as a safe place to camp...


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 06:57 pm:

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Angie--you are a native and know your way around. I got lost up there around Jenner and points north. 101 and highway 1 separate, and it is confusing to someone who is not from there.

Jason managed to get from Coloma, probably via I-80 and the Bay Bridge, to SF waterfront area, then up north to Gurneville, Jenner, Bodega Bay, back to Jenner and maybe some other points in between. It makes me think that he knew the roads there and was more than a tourist.

Which shopkeeper are you speaking of?


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 10:45 am:

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Angie--I was reading your theory about a boat being involved on The Unsolved File site. That makes sense to me. Maybe some one is playing RAMBO with an inflatable or small craft, an ATV and a .45 rifle! There is a protected colony of seals on Goat Island. Perhaps the couple witnessed him doing something illegal, or he got paranoid and thought they did.


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 07:09 pm:

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Dave: The shop owner I was referring to is Bruce Landry from the California Surf Shop. He's mentioned in the article that Tom posted on Aug. 14th... He is the one that suggested they camp at Fishhead Beach!

As for the boat theory, I just can't seem to shake it off... It seems to make sense to me too. It would not leave tracks & would not at all be unusual to see off-shore...


Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 07:45 pm:

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}Hi Dave and angie--This fits into my theory that Z lived on a sailboat..I posted this last week under general discussion..If he was 17 in '63, he would still be young enough today to still be active. I don't know how the anchorage is off of fishhead beach but he could have been anchored off there and spotted the two lovers..same old MO/ a zodiac dingy coming ashore wouldn't send any alarms. How easy to put-put to shore, kill them, back to sailboat and pull up the anchor.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 05:53 am:

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There are many campgrounds in that area.Suspect could have been based at one of those and had a boat! If it's Z, he's using new weapon.

Pull up that screen size pic from <www.californiacoastalproject.com>. The background looks very similar to the scene at LB, with the 2 Arroyos or Canyons coming down to spot of attack. Like SB also.

Z or suspect could have been a surfer and paddled in on his board. The 1963 attack was close to San Onofre Beach !


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 06:04 am:

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Sorry, that's the wrong link above. Just google Sonoma Beach State Park, and click aerial pics.

There's also a lot of Quarry activity around the river !


J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:35 pm:

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Surfers rarely paddle in from the sea carrying .45 cal. rifles. My thought remains that this was a crime of "bravado," someone along the highway had a gun and wanted to show what he could do with it...(obviously someone with a very warped personality)


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 11:55 am:

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I guess a surfboard would be awkward, but not impossible. That still doesn't rule out a dinghy or a zodiac craft from another boat or a campsite.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 05:32 pm:

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Jason and Lindsay were outdoor people. She had a motorcycle and was into rappelling and rafting. Jason had a blue bus for a while that he travelled in and lived in.

Looking at that pic of the murder scene, maybe they were rappelling down that cliff immediately above their campsite. You can also see 2 new bridges above there on Highway 1, and evidence of somebody dumping rock materials down over the cliff to river area!


Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 05:56 pm:

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Dave, even if the victims cartwheeled to the crime scene, what difference would it make?


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 06:22 pm:

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Tom- my thought is it may have irritated someone familiar with that area. This "someone" may have been out there to shoot seals, harvest sea life, or just fish. Maybe they disrupted his routine. That cliff is a perfect rappelling spot from what I see on pics. They were both into bungi jumping also. It's just my speculation.

Who really knows what the couple did in the hours prior to the shooting. My guess is they had dinner, did some type of physical-exercise activity, then settled down for the night. They were obviously sound asleep. Maybe tired out from their activities.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 05:31 pm:

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In looking at the aerial photos from California Coastal Project, looking Inland from above Russian River Mouth, I noticed a few things.

In addition to the Highway 1 pull-off parking areas, and the approach by boat theory, there's another.

In that big pic from Ocean facing East, you can see a road about half way up downslope, which leads from Jenner area, heading NW, on the Muniz or Munoz Ranch Road. Can you see the cows in the pic? The road from Jenner leads to a ravine directly above the murder scene. One premise is that the killer came down that ravine to the beach area, shot them, then escaped in the same manner. I have more to post on this, and will do so later. I don't know how to provide link to the pic, and hope Tom or Ed can help. I invite all comments and criticism.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:16 pm:

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I'm hesitant to post this because of all my Zynchronicity with the Board, but here goes.

I suspect Jason Allen was in my store in 1999, while he was a student at Appalachian Bible College, and before he met Lindsay. He was here with another guy, buying record albums. They told me they were from Mendocino, but now in West Virginia. The reason I remember is that they found an album entitled"Mendocino" by the Sir Douglas Quintet. They were ecstatic. They were also buying other CA R&R and Folk albums.

The college is maybe an hour and a half south of here via I-81, and there are no good book and record stores down there, so I can see why they stopped here. I know there are going to be some skeptics, but bring it on.


Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 07:23 pm:

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A person of interest in this case is Joseph Henry Burgess. On June 22, 1972 he shot and killed a young couple named Leif Carlsson and Ann Durant on Vancouver Island. He waited behind the bushes for them to fall asleep in their sleeping bags and when they did he snuck up and shot them in the head with a .22 rifle. He was a religious freak who believed premarital sex was wrong and police believe he was punishing them for it.
Burgess is believed to be mentally unstable and violent and uses religion as a facade.
He was from New Jersey and fled to Canada to avoid the draft during the Vietnam war. He settled in a hippie commune on Vancouver Island but opposed the free love idealogy.
After the murders of Carlsson and Durant he dissapeared and has been one of Canada's most wanted fugitives ever since.
He would be 58 years old now and has used the alias' of Joseph Henry Burke, Junior Burgess and Job Week. He stood 6'2" and was 150 lbs with brown hair and blue eyes.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:07 am:

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The guy who was with Jason was about Jason"s age. He had shoulder length, curly, brown hair(light). I got the impression they worked together, or were fellow students.

Age enhanced Burgess looks familiar to me, but I can't put my finger on it.


Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 06:34 pm:

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The Orlando Sentinel is reporting a crime that initially sounds very similar to this case...

A 26-year old couple were found slain in their campground in the Ocala National Forest. They had been reported missing after not returning from an overnight camping trip. Early reports are that the victims were shot and that they were located in a very remote location.

This story broke on 1/8, and might be worth keeping tabs on.

If the murder weapon turns out to be a Marlin Rifle...watch out!


Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 07:09 pm:

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Wrecknball,

The update to that story is that a 19 year old man was arrested for the murders of the camping couple... apparently a random and motiveless thrill killing. According to at least one source I've come across, the female victim was shot several times, which is unlike the Jenner murders in which both victims were shot only once.


Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 07:34 pm:

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Angie, Thanks for the update! I only read the initial story so I didn't realize the inconsistancies.


Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 08:21 pm:

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I read a summary of the case on Steve Huff's crime blog (do a google, he just changed servers) and the information there is the murder weapon is an AK-47. That is a very common rifle now and tends to be used more for personal defense than hunting. Either of the Marlin's suspected in the Cutshall and Allen murder would be a more rare gun and almost certainly owned by a long-time gun enthusiast or hunter. Neither would be cheap while some Ak's can be had for probably half the price or even less.
I would like to know if the 19 y.o. suspect in FL has ever lived or taken trips to the west coast though.


Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 07:45 am:

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The Ak 47 was taken from a friend of his uncle then returned after the murders unloaded.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 05:14 pm:

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Mr. Q is still here, and looks like the photo in the Lompoc yearbook. I am fond of Abalone, as was ALA, but have never tasted Sea Urchins, or have never been to Salt Pointe.


Dave Torzillo
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 01:11 pm:

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I went back to the area in question this AM. Someone has the audacity to put a deer tree stand on their property, directly across the stream from a game preserve.

There is also an illegal logging operation going on there,imo.---------Bring it on!

I have a pic of Jason and Lindsey posted in my front window. Several people have inquired about it, and that's my reason for putting it there!
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 4:23 pm:   

Here's a link for the latest Cutshall/Allen discussion.

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