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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   

Here's a link to the previous Cutshall/Allen discussion.

Here's a link to some of the images previously posted, including of the victims, crime scene, their vehicle, etc.

Meanwhile, today there's a big update concerning the case. Click here for details.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

Here's a link to info just released by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Dept:

PDF File
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   

What is it that makes police sit on so much evidence for almost 2 years? I can see the need to hold some things back, but surely not so much as they have just released.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:46 am:   

Mike, my thoughts exactly. Why wait until the trail went cold, especially with the diary entries? The people who wrote in the diary probably weren't the killer(s), but they may have seen someone suspicious lurking in the area. I think it's a good bet that the killer was familiar with the area.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   

Tom, thanks for the update. I REALLY hope the PD had a good reason for sitting on that info for so long.

I have nothing to add to the conversation from a professional capacity, but the writings look a LOT like some of the things some of my stoner-friends from high school (no pun intended) and college wrote after using (specifically either pot or LSD). It would be nice if the writers of the "journal" and the devil-artists could be located. Though, now that it's 2
years after-the-fact, and if potential witnesses were "under the influence," I don't hold much hope of anyone retrieving useful information.
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   

The fact that nobody has come forward and claim, or report missing, the diary leads me to believe that there is a strong possibility it belongs to the killer(s).
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 10:53 am:   

Has anyone seen this? http://www.ci.sausalito.ca.us/spd/unsolved.htm

It was the date that caught my attention 8\14-18 the same date as Allen/Cutshall. Also from this point you can access the same rd to the A/C murder site.

If you look at the crimescene with Google Earth you can see that it appears to be a lovers lane or teen hangout. Despite the fact that this attorney was involved in an investigation, it may not have played any part as to why he was murdered. Perhaps the killer may have thought it was a couple of teens playin slap & tickle in the back seat of the car.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   

Good post--If you can access this road to Rodeo Beach, and then all the way up to Fish Head Beach, it is a key to all this body dumping activity. The woman from Rodeo in the East Bay, Carpenter's alleged victims at Point Reyes and Mt. Tam.--Pat Tan--and others I'm sure.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 1:42 pm:   

I wonder where this suspect from Phoenix was in Sept. 2004? The hat is shaped like the one found at FHB. Maybe he picked up a new hat.

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/base linerapist06302006-CR.html
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 9:46 pm:   

That is the baseline rapist. He raped many women, robbed and recently has been killing. Since there was no rape or robbery and he has stayed in one area to commit his crimes I doubt he had anything to do with the murders at the beach. Now the OTHER killer from Az, that has been shooting people and animals would be a better candidate. A couple camping in the back of a pick up was shot and killed much like Lindsay and Jason.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 12:49 am:   

The devil drawings are totally creepy. I wonder if Cutsall and Allen had seen them before bedding down for the night. I for one would feel weird about sleeping there.

Seems like Sonoma PD is about out of leads and this is their last-ditch effort to uncover something.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 9:19 am:   

Thanks Colette. I would still like to know that Phoenix suspect's whereabouts in Sept. 2004. There are plenty of seasonal type jobs around Phoenix, and also around Norcal area. i.e. start harvesting in AZ, move over to the lettuce beds in Socal, then up the central valley of CA, following the crops--avocados, grapes, nuts, apricots, peaches, etc., all the way up North to Marysville. That's how a lot of Juan Corona's victims got where they were. And the ranch mgrs. would sometimes travel these routes, looking for employees.

A truck driver is also possible, IMO.

How do you know he has stayed in one area? The FHB perp could have committed rapes we are not aware of yet!
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   

I grew up and Phoenix, and let me tell you, is is snowbird Central.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 7:32 pm:   

Does anyone have a close up of the left tailight on the victims car? I know there is a picture here at the site, but I was wondering if someone had more of a close up zooming in on the left tailight.

If so, is that mud? It looks like a symbol of some sort?
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Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 7:44 pm:   

Timothy, I don't have a pic of the tail light, but here is a link from the local SF news which came out on today's broadcast. I find it very interesting to say the least! Check out the evidence gathered by the Sonoma Cnty Sheriffs Office, including the hand written notes at the scene. Click on to the streaming video also to see the news broadcast.


http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_122145708.h tml
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:42 pm:   

I just sent a link from the Sonoma Sheriffs dept to Tom. I went to Marvel books to see if the Spiderman face that was drawn as a clue was in one of those books. The signed "R" also got my attention. Tom if you see this post check your email.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 6:08 am:   

The article states that someone made a journal entry, "alone again, outside of myself and placid as hell . . . "

Very odd indeed. Not saying that this points to "Z" as the killer, but it would be neat to see what the handwriting looked like.
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FrenchFry (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 7:33 am:   

http://www.sfgate.com/
has an article, as well as pictures of the disclosed evidence, including the journal entries.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 8:00 am:   

Ok, here is a link to the cryptic writings-

http://www.sonomasheriff.org/Wanted/jenner_news_re lease.pdf

Doesn't look anything like "Z"'s writing...so perhaps this is a copycat killer....or perhaps "Z" changed his style of writing yet again.

Could also have nothing to do with the murders at all.
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blue meanie (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 8:47 am:   

"Allen", more Zynchronicity. We know for sure that ALA did not do this one.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:03 am:   

Nope, but that doesn't mean that "Z" didn't.
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blue meanie (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:10 am:   

I agree. And I don't think ALA was the Zodiac. Anyone (even an old man) can pull a trigger, especially against 2 sleeping victims.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:16 am:   

I have seen some pretty "old" man who are in better shape then I am. In fact a guy who goes to our church jogs everyday, has that weight lifting thing. He has arms bigger than mine and could climb hills with no problems. He is 64 yeas old.

If "Z" stayed in shape like this, it could very well be "Z".

I believe this may be a copy cat killing, or have something to do with a young college student who was "love sick".
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:18 am:   

Notice, not the guy from my church is "Z"...didn't mean that. What I am saying is, that if "Z" stayed in shape....he could have no problems scaling those hills at the crime scence. Being old, doesn't mean you can't do anything.
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blue meanie (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:19 am:   

from what I have read, the victims were just shot and that is it. If you are talking about revenge, anger or "if I can't have her no one can" there would be a lot more violence at the scene. This was random or they were stalked by a person that was not emotionally attached to either person.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:29 am:   

Possible that it was random. I am trying to find out more information on the case. Details are sketchy at best. There appears to be some odd cryptic writing in a journal found near the murder. There also seems to be an odd looking hat found near the murders.
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blue meanie (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:34 am:   

see French Fry's post above. Use the link and look for a small link to a story about "beach murders" on the MAIN page the link takes you too. They have all the evidence for you to see. Click on the pics. Most of that stuff is just kooks coming out of the woodwork (as far as the journal writings). And we know CA is full of kooks.

The killer has probably walked that section of beach many times reliving his/her crime. I feel it is a Zodiac copy cat who is not smart enough or just to scared to play with the media like Z did. Most serial killers do a lot more then just shoot people and leave the scene.
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blue meanie (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:51 am:   

sure Timothy, my grandfather was very active deep into his 80's. Definitely had no problems walking and would have had no problems shooting a gun. He kept a gun close in his last years (for protection). I ALWAYS called from my cell phone before I walked into his house!

God bless his soul. BTW -- he never lived in CA.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 2:56 pm:   

Police were looking into the suspect who is a suspect in another camp counselor style murder. If he is the same killer as the one who kiilled Cutshall and Allen, that remove "Z" as a suspect.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 2:57 pm:   

Did it again. The above post is mine.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 4:25 pm:   

The only hats I have seen like that were on record album covers(Dylan comes to mind), or original hippies from the 66-70 era. It also reminds me of Brando in The Missouri Breaks. Probably someone emulating what they had seen in the media. Are there any thrift shops in the Jenner area? It may have been purchased there.
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 9:45 pm:   

Dave There are no thrift shops in Jenner. The closest one would be Guerneville. There could have been a yard sale or two, as it was the week-end. also there are street vendors in both Guerneville and Monte Rio. They sell a variety of stuff. There are some pretty flamboyant people in the Russian River area. The hat wouldn't look all that out of place there. FYI
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 5:42 am:   

Thanks Seagull. Maybe a vendor or sales person would remember selling such a hat.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   

The meanings behind the drawings? I wonder if the killer sees themselves this way?
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   

The meanings behind the drawings? I wonder if the killer sees themselves this way??
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   

I saw a tag inside of that hat,if it has a RN number ,it can be traced. I know that the RN numbers in clothes can be traced.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   

The only Chrissie from Auburn who comes up missing is a Christina Lee Byers from Auburn Michigan. In theory, if the note book is actually a trophy that the killer kept and brought with them. It's odd that the killer left all his trophies behind.

Here is more on the missing Christina-

http://www.doenetwork.us/nampn/cases/byers_christi na.html
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   

Too add, She was only 33.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 6:42 pm:   

The Chrissie you speak of is more than likely from the city of Auburn, Ca. 20 miles north of Sacramento. She was probably a visitor to the area.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   

Do you have more info on that Chrissie?
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   

Tim,

The writing by the Chrissie you speak of, is from a journal that was left available for any visitors to write in. She was just a beach goer like everyone else. She writes: My boyfriend was a goke. I think I'll go toke. It sounds like she was gonna fire up that humongous joint Sandy was referring to on an earlier post to Dave. She just made an entry like alot of people did. Nothing wierd about it. She signed her name and Auburn. More than likely she was from Auburn, Ca. which is not all that far away from Jenner.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   

Auburn is not that far from Coloma. I wonder if Chrissie ever visited the rafting place where the victims worked. The roach was humungous too.lol
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:39 pm:   

If this Chrissie did visit, maybe she seen the murderer at one point?
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 4:09 pm:   

Maybe this Chrissie and her boyfriend who was a "goke" came along with them for the ride? Who knows.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   

I think they would have been in the pics, or someone would have seen them in SF or Jenner, if they were travelling as a foursome. Interesting that Auburn is 11 miles from Coloma.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 10:35 pm:   

Dave,

I just wonder who this boyfriend who Chrissie referred to as a "Goke" is? Doesn't sound like she thinks he's too bright. Then she just may have been horsing around in the journal.

I do find it interesting that all four of them happened to be from the same general area... 11 miles apart! I wonder if there is an entry date for Chrissie's entry? Too see if her and her beau were on that beach at the same time as Allen and Cutshall?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 10:24 am:   

A view of Fish Head Beach area:

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.c gi?image=12435&mode=sequential&flags=0&year=2002
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 6:51 am:   

Thanks Dave , Those were some great pictures ! The tide was higher in these pictures than when Tom, Ed and I went just south of there.We looked for the crime scene area. We found a large rock that looked like the one in picture I brought, but is was the wrong place. It is a steep walk down to the beaches in that area,not easy for a old hippy man to get to.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   

"Not easy for an old Hippy man to get to".-Are you speaking of Ed, Tom, or a 70 year old Z? lol. You're right, the tides there, and the terrain are confusing. That's why we should save all the pics. I wish Tom would re-post that high res pic of the original crime scene, that was in the papers!

SF nite rider--It sounds like Chrissie was not too bright, if she spelled joke as goke.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:12 pm:   

Dave,

I never really looked at it like that! I couldn't for the life of me figure out what goke was suppose to mean. Thought maybe it was her own made up definition. But you are so right. She meant to spell Joke. Now that makes sense.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   

Vallejo Dave,I thought she was just trying to be funny !I have a feeling she wasn't with her boy friend when she wrote that,but someone else.I was referring to the 70 yr old Z LOL. It took me longer to get down there than the guys, I had on heals I think! Its too bad that the police didn't put a request into the Auburn news paper, asking for the publics help in finding the Chrissie who may have been there at that time. I don't think it is too late to do that now.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   

Sandy--you are right,imo. They should do a massive canvassing of Auburn, Coloma, Placerville to find Chrissie.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:40 pm:   

Dave,

Went back and looked at the journal entries. Chrissie from Auburn, had an entry on 7/10/04.
This is nearly 5 weeks before Allen and Cutshall were there which was Aug.14-15. So it would appear that she and her joke of a boyfriend weren't there at the time of the murders.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 3:32 am:   

Nite Rider, Yes, but it would still be nice to talk to her. To find out the condition of the beach-driftwood, grafitti, beer cans, target practice, who else was there and how did they enter the area?
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:39 am:   

FWIW - I have seen the identical hat for sale on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. It's considered a "pimp hat" and white people get them for "Pimp 'n Ho's" parties.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 6:16 pm:   

"Z" could be as young as 60 to 61 if he really did start his killing spree as a young man in lompoc. I know some senior citizens who could run the mile faster then I could when I was a kid. It's all possible, one can only speculate.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:37 am:   

Timothy, He could be as old as 78 if he was 38 in 69. I know some pretty healthy men in their 70's. Look at Jack Lalane,he is in his late 80's !
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   

Very true Sandy. I have no doubt that "Z" might still be healthy enough to pull a trigger. He might even have been healthy enough to climb that hill. The thing I found odd is that this killing happend after all the stuff with BTK went down. To me it was like "Z" saying he was still here, and he still hasn't been caught. Of course it could be an incredible coincidence too.
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samhain (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 8:28 am:   

seems to be a CA thing -- to shoot couples on the beach in the middle of the night.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 3:47 am:   

If this person shot them in their sleep at night, he would need light. I'm going to speculate that he was alone because even the best of friends would have ratted him out for the reward money. I doubt he could hold a flashlight and pull a trigger too. It's possible that he had a light taped to his rifle, which is something the Zodiac would do.

Also the planting of a pimp style hat and writing "Peace Out" to maybe manipulate people into thinking it was a black guy, is also sort of a Zodiac style thing to do. I noticed that the Zodiac was very manipulative in some of his letters.

I don't think the old Zodiac would have necessarily had to climb anyplace to shoot his victims. He could have used a boat. I'm going to guess that he drove though. I think the killer picked a secluded area so there would be no witnesses for a clean get away. I suspect he was familiar with the area but didn't live in the area. I think that for 2 reasons. 1) The murder weapon couldn't be found by registered users in the area and 2) It was Friday the 13th weekend. I think he was looking to kill someone and drove there to do it. Probably drove until he saw a car parked or someone he could see on the beach (if people could still be visible as it became dark).

There was supposedly a suspicious car in the area that had a tadpole with legs decal on it. I did a google search for images, using the word "tadpole". I found a black and white image of a tadpole with legs, surrounded by a diamond shaped design. It was a symbol that was placed over the head of ritualistic murders and it had to do with the afterlife. Zodiac spoke of things concerning his belief of the afterlife in one of his decoded letters.

Cont'd
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 3:49 am:   

I don't think the murderer knew the victims. I think it's possible that they could have went around asking for a "safe place" to sleep and some unsafe human heard them. This is possible but then again , all a person has to do is drive along the water line. I don't think it was anyone they knew because they took couple shots of themselves with a camera and you could tell that it wasn't done by another person. It would have been very difficult to follow them through miles and miles of traveling AND it's simply too much trouble for someone that knows them.

The killer is definitely into movies or comics (if the images and notes were left by the killer). The Zodiac had sort of a playful media type personality that would fit in that way too.

It's possible that the old Zodiac is a lot more careful today than in the past. Phone calls can be traced much more quickly. Victims now have cell phones and car doors that auto lock. Ferensics science is very outstanding today. Just the ability to use DNA is a huge step. It doesn't surprise me that an old Zodiac would be quieter and much more careful.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 4:07 am:   

One last thought is that this individual was probably quicky and accurate with the use of his rifle. I say that because he was able to quickly shoot both of them without anything looking disturbed. I know if I was sleeping and I heard a gun shot next to my head, I would jump a mile if given just a few seconds. I believe these shootings were done VERY quickly. The Zodiac was supposedly good with the use of a rifle. He shot one victim 5 times in the back as she ran and each shot right next to each other (within an inch I believe).

Keep in mind that I'm not stating what I feel are the ONLY possibilities. I'm just making guesses based on what I feel is most likely.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 10:09 am:   

Troy,

If it was anywhere close to to being a full moon at the time, one would not need the help of artificial light.. Especially with the reflection off of the water and light colored sand of the beach!
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

Troy, good observations! The comment about the reward is insightful-He must have been alone , or someone would have ratted on him for the $50,000.---And he must have been very quick with that Marlin--bang-bang.

The diary was there permanently, so to speak, for visitors to make comments. The drawings on the driftwood were probably done prior to the night in question, but it would be nice to talk to the person who did them!

The tadpole decal was probably a normal event, due to the many environmental activists in that area.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 5:09 pm:   

Yes, very good point. I know I would gladly rat someone out for that cash....
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   

Troy,

Where did you get the info about the "tadpole" with legs decal seen on a suspicious vehicle in the area?..Just curious

The hat was found in the turnout near the murder scene. Who's to say who it belonged to.. many cars pull over at those ocean view lookouts. It could have fallen out of any car when the occupants got out to get a breath of fresh air, and to enjoy the view.
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 8:52 pm:   

I think the key is in the driftwood poem. I also wish I had a better picture of the left tailight of the victims car. I swear that looks like "Z"'s symbol.....
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   

Hope everyone has seen this.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 8:09 am:   

Tom, if possible can I get a copies of the pictures of the victims car? I would like to zoom in on the driver's side tail light?

I know we are not allowed to copy things off the site, this is why I ask.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 10:45 am:   

Feel free to copy -- I just don't want people linking to the files on my server, as it slows down the site.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 2:16 pm:   

Thanks Tom.....I truly appreciate that....
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 3:18 pm:   

Ok, take a look at this tail light of the victims car. Something is there. A symbol of some sort. It looks like a circle with a cross....or a badly made peace sign.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/Hallowt/lef ttaillightcloseup.jpg
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mike nash (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   

timothy,
it looks to me like it is a break in the lens of the tailight...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   

To me it looks like some sort of circular drawing with dots in the roughly 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock positions. It's hard to tell what it is. Maybe the Sonoma County authorities could take a close up look at the actual vehicle.
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Timothy (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   

A circular break with a t through it?
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 7:40 pm:   

One thing of interest to me are the dents--front right and it looks like the back, same side..could they have had a fender bender and the guy followed them and then came back at night? Is there any knowledge of the dents?
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Rocky (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 6:29 pm:   

Tom, now do you think this is a hate crime?
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DanielSF (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 10:53 am:   

It kinda looks like an Anarchy symbol
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 4:09 pm:   

SF Nite Rider,

There are links all over the place about the tadpole decal but here's a link for you to read. http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/10758001p -11676198c.html
After researching it further I found that the tadpole on the car didn't match the tadpole I saw in my google search. The one on the car looked more like a crescent shape from what they say.

About the hat. I agree, the hat could come from any passing vehicle but it is a pretty secluded area and that hat could be a little out of place. The hat also looks like something someone would wear if they wrote "Peace Out" on driftwood. As I've said before, I wonder if the murderer (assuming the murderer wrote it) put "Peace Out" as a way of making people think he was black or younger than 30.

Good thinking about the moon. I never bothered to check a lunar calendar. It would be interesting to find out what the moon was like that night.

As for the driftwood drawings already being there, that's possible. It would seem to me that detectives could figure out about how long the drawings were there. It would be interesting to find out who drew them at best.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:36 am:   

T.C..

Go ahead and check out the lunar calendar for that night, if possible.. Let's compare drawings here. The Zodiac's juvenile drawing of his school bus bomb setup doesn't hardly compare to the detailed artistic scratchings found on the driftwood at the scene... IMO.. But you never know, he could have taken an art class or two since the late 60's.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 9:04 am:   

or became a tattoo artist, or is now fond of them!
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 9:51 am:   

This is true, Dave!
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   

August 16, 2004 was new moon, so on the nights of the 15, 16, 17 there would effectively have been no moon during the nighttime hours.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 8:24 am:   

Yes, I was about to say the same thing. If you view this link http://www.life-cycles-destiny.com/dw/20012010.htm you'll see that the murder happened just before or slightly after a new moon. It would have been extremely dark. One could almost guess that the killer picked this night on purpose. Maybe he wanted it to be dark.

If the murder was committed at night, then the killer would have needed an artificial means of seeing. There is no doubt there. Either a lantern, flashlight or IR goggles. Even a laser pointer on the rifle would have been barely enough but I think he had something better to see with to be able to walk the trail at night like that. I'm going to add that I think it's likely the victims were shot at night because darkness would make the killer less visible and both victims probably wouldn't be sleeping so soundly at dusk.

I don't know much about rifles, so I went into a Big 5 to take a look at a Merlin rifle. The one I saw there was $399 and although it wasn't the most expensive rifle there, I noticed that it was the most expensive rifle with a shorter length to it. I'm assuming it would be the very best rifle a person could own that was also easy to cary and store in a trunk. It's also easier to conceal to some degree. Another thing I noticed about the rifle I was looking at in Big 5 was that it looked like a double barrel but the bottom "barrel" was just a solid stock. I'm guessing to lend strength to the barrel. Because this rifle is one of the shorter variety, I'm guessing it's not specifically designed for long range use. Any gun expert's comments would be greatly appreciated.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 8:40 am:   

Troy--good comments. There is still the possibility that the killer came down the Russian River in a Kayak, or came on the beach from the Ocean side from some sort of water craft.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 9:00 am:   

Maybe it was a "Zodiac" RIB FC470... This could fit the bill for a nightime beach landing!
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 7:45 am:   

I'll post this question again-It looks like there are several dents in the car--could they have hit someones car? Someone who followed them and killed them later?
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:00 am:   

Yes Vallejo_dave that's very true. I've thought about that too. In my earlier post, I mentioned the possibility of a water landing. The thought of a kayak was good. I didn't think of that. A kayak wouldn't make any noise.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:24 am:   

SF Nite Rider,
In your opinion what makes the RIB fc470 the boat of choice.

Fredcasa,
Good observation. I don't think Allen and Cutshall were the type to hit and run though. The car was just old and dinged up. If they got into a recent accident, I sense that the couple would have exchanged information in the proper manner. The information would have probably been found with the bodies or inside the car. Also the parents of the victims would have probably noticed extra dings. Some elements of road rage could be a possibility, but in a remote area like that, I doubt drivers would be that uptight and even if someone was very angry, I think the driver would have blown off steam at the moment rather than stalk them later. One never knows for sure however. There's a lot of cats out there.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 1:16 pm:   

Anyone know if they had a small fire by their camp site ? If so the perp could have spotted them coming down from the north. The road is curvey and is high enough to see them, if they had a small fire. All he had to do is waite for them to fall to sleep. I was just there 3 weeks ago again, I left for home before dark !
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   

I saw the crime scene photos. I didn't notice a place where it looked like a small camp fire had been there. In mid August, I doubt they would have needed to sleep by a fire anyway. They probably wanted to sleep out on the beach because the weather was nice. The only reasons I can think of for leaving a fire burning is possibly for setting a romantic atmosphere or to see by it. I didn't see anything in the photos to suggest they had a fire though.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   

Troy,

You appear to be a phishing.. Getting any bites?
Oh, and that "Merlin" rifle you speak of.. It's actually called a "Marlin" (fish..water..Marlin?)
Short barreled, easily and quickly handled by the shooter. Ability to make quick shots in a confined area, ie.. Brush and trees. Not for long range shooting. Short barrel not long enough to stablize flight of bullet.. accurate out to about 100 yds. with open sights..
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:08 pm:   

Troy, Even in Aug. it gets cold at night by the ocean, but I was thinking more for the romantic atmosphere. If they put the fire out before going to sleep, they would have used sand to cover it,then it wouldn't show in any pictures.It was just a thought.As for a Zodiac boat coming to shore, there are too many large sharp rocks in that water for that."If" it was Z he likes driving around looking for victims.I enjoy reading your input its refreshing, keep it up.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:34 pm:   

Timothy,That tail light does have a mark that looks like a Z logo.It has to be just another one of those odd coincidences, or is it ? It looks dark enough to have been done with a felt tip pen. For sure the police would have found that I would think.It reminds me of the night after work, I found that someone had broken my car antenna, and bent it in a Z shape.I thought that was a odd coincidence also.Oh well I have had so many of them over the yrs.,its no big deal anymore.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 9:31 am:   

It does get cold by the surf at anytime of day or night in Northeren CA., even in summer. Yes, a fire could serve dual purposes-heat, romanticism, and how about cooking food. I think I see a fire pit spot on the high res pic issued by Sonoma Co., in front of the bodies by the driftwood.

A Zodiac craft could avoid the sharp rocks by coming in from N or S, and cruising the surf line.
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Hallowtim
Username: Hallowtim

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 3:26 pm:   

Sandy, I agree with the Z logo. It might just be one of those odd coincidences.....but I have a deep down hunch there is something more to it. When I first saw it, my first thoughts were either 'z' or 'z' copy cat.

By the way, I am Timothy....known known as Hallowtim.
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armchaipi (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   

I third the motion that it gets *very very* nippy on the north coast of California at night (and breezy to quite windy as well) no matter what time of year! Much much too cold to sleep on the beach without blankets, etc.. As a matter of fact, in many places, the north coast is *warmer* in the winter than in the summer.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 6:26 pm:   

SF Nite Rider,

What do you mean by I appear to be phishing? Just curious. Sorry for misspelling the Marlin rifle, I realized that after I made the post.

Sandy,

Yes, I agree with you and know what you mean. I just went to Stinson beach last Tuesday and was really surprised that it was warm by the water. A lot of times it is a little chilly. I was just thinking that with their sleeping bags it would have been fairly comfortable that time of year, but who knows. They could have started a fire. If they put it out by covering it with sand, then the killer would have had to have spotted them before that point, if he was in fact drawn by the light of the camp fire. I still think that he most probably just drove along the ocean until he found a parked vehicle, but there are all kinds of possibilities.
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Hallowtim
Username: Hallowtim

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   

My post should read I am Timothy now know as Hallowtim.
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Troy Carpenter (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   

The link that I posted about the tadpole decal doesn't work for some reason. I think it messed up because I was posting from my SideKick and I did something wrong.

Here are 3 other links that talk about the decal. As far as I know, these links should work.

http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=2244586&C lientType=Printable

http://www.prisonpotpourri.com/COURTSandCASES/sacb ee_com%20--%20News%20--%20Investigators%20detail%2 0type%20of%20rifle%20used%20to%20kill%20pair%20on% 20beach.html

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/25/115 .html?1146612200

There's also a link someplace that shows a police sketch of the tadpole decal but unfortunately I couldn't find it when I looked for it again.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   

Let's continue this discussion here.

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