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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   

I tried to locate it over the weekend to no avail. The landscape is very similar in this area of Highway 101 which makes finding the location all that more difficult.

The area is covered in overgrowth and there are more than a few roadside turnouts in the area. There were actually a few cars parked in some of these turnouts, and I even saw a couple of surfers. I wonder if the crime scene was known as a good surf location back in '63?

On the east side of the highway, in what I assume is the general area of the CS I noticed some type of older refinery w/ a newer two story office building next to it. I even saw a large home surrounded by trees on the west side of the highway, within a couple of miles of the refinery.

Also of note, on the west side of the highway near the railroad tracks it wasn't uncommon to see dirt roads providing vehicle access to what I assume is private property.

On the east side of 101 is also a paved parallel access road. Not present in the '63 aerial photo, I'm wondering if at one time this was the northbound lanes of the 101. Either way, both the access road and the current 101 northbound is elevated considerably from the southbound lanes, making it quite difficult to find any kind of crime scene reference point due to the vegetation.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   

Wb,
Go into Z chat and ask det.Bill as he worked this case and is an expert on it.
He knows the topography of course.

This may have been 'young' Z's first attempt at murder.The parallels beween the GB '63 and the LB '69 are uncanny.And did he wear a hood at GB?FYI

One of the two persons who was supposed to meet Domingos and Edwards that day at the beach area where they were killed informed me he had to bow out because of work so his girlfriend didn't go either!
He said it was a place to go for necking or just hanging out,etc.It was known amongst the students in the Lompac area.

One wonders if the attacker would have proceeded with four people there!Probably not-too difficult to control four people and two were pretty strong males.
He lost control with just the two victims that day.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 2:48 pm:   

Howard I have been in touch with a classmate of theirs for the past month- He recently visited the murder sight. Of course the shack is long gone. He told me their car would have been visible from the road. However I wonder why the killer would haul boxes of ammo down if it were spur of the moment..easier to put some in his pocket. Not too long ago was the 40th anniversary of their killings..they were very nice kids. he was a football star and she a pretty cheerleader--together for a long time..
I sent him the info on the mad beachcomber--he had never heard of him--at the time many thought it was a hobo passing through. However I'm pretty convinced it was early Z
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:15 pm:   

Howard, Before I went down there I talked to Bill. He said he had had a hard time finding the scene in recent years due to the way it had changed over time. He wished he could have told me more but he said one almost has to be there and know what to look for as far as finding the scene goes
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   

WB,
OK go to Fred!Maybe you guys can go with the classmate as he seems to know where it is.

Oh,don't forget pictures for we curious posters!
They could be placed side by side with the GB photos on Tom's site.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 12:16 am:   

Wrecknball, this is what I remember of Route 101 from years back. The paved access road on the east side of the highway is in the vicinity of "Tajiguas," which still appears on some California maps (see AAA Santa Barbara County). The road may have been part of old 101. It was kept because it provides access to ranches further back up the hillside. The direct route from that hillside would bring cars to the new 101 in a blind canyon situation, so the side road allows what little traffic there is to merge more safely onto 101 up the coast a bit. There used to be a gas station in Tajiguas, the only commercial site in "town," but it closed down years ago.

One of the oil refineries in the area was Phillips 66 at the Ellwood Fields (formerly Seaside Oil). That's closer to Goleta (south).

In 1974 when driving down the Calif. coast with my cousin to L.A., we stopped along the coast around sunset and were invited to sit beside a fire with some friendly beach-goers. The beach seemed to have a totally friendly vibe to it at that time.

Howard, good question about 2 vs. 4 people on the beach. The Killer did have his gun so maybe he could have taken out all 4. Or, maybe he would just have lurked about looking for 1 or 2 elsewhere.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:31 pm:   

Eric, Thanks for the info! The refinery I was referring to is closer to Gaviota. Maybe Bill knows the place I'm talking about..
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 5:09 pm:   

I came by there in 69 on 1--101 going south, but was not aware of the crime scene at that time.

How close was the Domingos Ranch to the crime scene? The SP tracks go thru there too.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   

Howard I live in Mexico--the best I can do is ask Richard if there are any signs/landmarks to look for/he did say it was still a lonely place. That senior skip day was the last one-after that they took organized trips together.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   

I don't have any immediate plans to go back down there any time soon.

If anyone is going to go down there to find the scene...YES...please take pics! Be sure to get some good ones of what the area looks like around the highway so that in the future locating the scene won't be so difficult.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:42 pm:   

Using this photograph and google earth, the crime scene is around (34.469938°, -120.168866°). Here are a couple of links: close up & map.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:30 pm:   

Great find Mike! Thanks to you I think it will be possible for each one of us to find the scene if we so choose!

There were a couple of excellent reference points I noticed. First, I noticed what appears to be one of the turnouts I mentioned earlier directly above the crime scene...where the trees meet the road. By itself that not quite a tell-tale sign being that much of this area of the 101 has overgrowth and similar looking dirt turnouts. If you use the arrows at the top left of the picture, what I think to be the best point of reference comes into view...

Use the left arrow to scroll over. Notice that the access road parallel to the northbound lanes is not only provided access to northbound 101, but actually crosses the lanes to allow traffic to merge into the southbound ones as well. That coupled with the dirt turnout is the clincher for me...I can't wait to go back...but hopefully someone else will take this info and beat me to it since I don't think I'll make it back down there for awhile.

Interestingly, this pic is almost the reverse of the '63 aerial but notably the access road wasn't present in that pic meaning some considerable road development has taken place in that area in particular.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:36 pm:   

Wrecknball,

Thanks. I'm looking forward to getting down there myself eventually. I was down in Southern California recently. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to do any Zodiac-related activities. Hopefully I'll get there before too long...
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 2:34 pm:   

Mike ,I had no idea it was so close to Solvang. I go there when ever I am down that way.I understood from Bill it is not so easy to find, even he has a hard time. I thought it was closer to Goleta and UCSB ? Thanks for the links.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:52 am:   

Looks like the location is right by Vandenburg AF base,I wonder if any shoes prints were recoved? Which brings us back to the wingwalker style of shoes found at Travis AF. And foot prints found at the Z crime seen, in Vallejo. Could the Zodiac had been stationed in the AF and transfered from Vandenburg to Travis between 63 and 69?
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:08 am:   

Sandy,
Although Solvang might be closer in distance, Time wise Goleta and UCSB would be closer.
Bryan
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   

Bryan, The scene is about 4-5 miles from where Highway 1 meets the 101 and is only generally near Vandenburg. In terms of landscape, it seems a lot further.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:28 am:   

This is the area of the attack, I believe, with a pic from 2002.

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.c gi?image=2931&mode=sequential&flags=0&year=2002
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   

Dave,
My Grandfather was on Guard duty on the train Trestle in walking distance of this site (Refugio Beach) during WW2 when a Mini sub shot at those gas tanks.
Bryan
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   

Bryan, interesting. Is that the murder scene? The locations look so much alike. Here are 2 more near there: Poison Oak Point, and Canada Molino in the same sequence.

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.c gi?image=2937&mode=sequential&flags=0&year=2002
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   

Dave, I think the second link you posted is of the murder site...but I can't be sure. Scroll to the northwest and estimate how far it is to Gaviota State Beach.
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Bryanthegiant
Username: Bryanthegiant

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   

Dave,
About ten pictures south of the 2nd picture is were my grandfather was sitting Refugio Beach, I'll email my mom and ask her if she remembers anything about the murders. I do remember camping at Refugio and my grandmother commenting about not sleeping on the beach, I was about 12 to 14 so it would have been 1970 to 72
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 8:00 am:   

Wreck, I'm having trouble estimating the distance.

Bryan, Good idea. It would be nice to hear some remarks from people who lived in the area at the time.

Does anyone know how close the Jane Doe(69) crime scene is to the D and E scene?
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 6:13 pm:   

Dave, I already determined that your pic is indeed of the crime scene...try the links Mike put up for closeups
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 6:23 pm:   

The Air Force connection is interesting. I personally believe that Z flew into the Crissey field airstrip at the Presidio at some time. This could have been any branch of the service, or an independant contractor. Z's writings and image descriptions, even his symbol, indicate an acute knowledge of the Bay Area from the air, IMO.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 9:48 pm:   

I don't know Dave, not to get off topic or anything, but I like to believe if Z was military affiliated he would have most likely had something to do with Intel...but I'll save that for another thread.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 12:50 am:   

It would be a long trip for me, but not out of the question. However, I'm not sure I could find the exact site.

It's more than 4-5 miles from the 1/101 junction up the hill; 3.2 miles just to get to the sea coast and then you have to get through Gaviota State Park. I would guess the site is somewhere between Cañon Del Molino to the west and Refugio State Beach to the east, a 6 mile stretch. Tajiguas, with its parallel road and crossing, sticks out as a logical place to make the U turn on the highway, though I suppose in times of lighter traffic, it could have been made anywhere.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 11:18 am:   

Here are directions to the crime scene from someone quite familiar with it:

"The best way I know is to use the Google Earth site and find the location that sticks out the most just east of Gaviota beach. It is a west-east stretch of beach that runs from where 101 takes a sharp turn to the east toward Santa Barbara. When you look at the hwy from high above you will see where the coast line has a sharp jut out into the ocean. That is the murder scene. If you look at the aerial photo on Tom’s Web site you can see the how the beach juts out. Print it out and turn it upside down and compare it to the Google Earth view. It doesn’t really have a name but Google Earth and the Santa Barbara County map calls it “Canada Del Molino”. The old place where we pulled off to the north on the south bound lane of 101 is gone now. There is a place to turn off to the right and you will see the railroad tracks. You cross the tracks and there is a path that goes down to the beach. It’s a little hard to find. You will reach a place where you can take a right or left fork. Take the right fork and it will take you to the murder scene. Not too far from the opening at the beach on the right is where the path to the old shack’s location is. The shack was destroyed soon after the murders. There is no sign of it today, just a few rocks now. The beach looks the same, rocky. There are trees by an old dry stream bed all the way down to the beach. The shack was in those trees. When on the beach you look up and can not see the hwy. You can see the turn off just north of the west bound land on the photo on Tom’s Web site. It is the white spot in the trees just north of the west bound lane of 101. It’s gone now. So try Google Earth. If they want to find the murder scene with GPS it’s at 34 degrees, 28 minutes, 10.72 seconds north; 12 degrees, 10 minutes, 7.72 seconds west. The elevation is 0 feet of course. The place to pull off of 101 is 34 degrees, 28 minutes, 16.64 seconds north; 120 degrees, 10 minutes, and 8.33 seconds west. The elevation is 87 feet. So you drop nearly ninety feet down to the beach through thick brush."
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 11:35 am:   

WHO SENT THAT TO YOU TOM! They seem a little to familar with it. Unless its Bill Baker, its a little creepy.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   

Sounds a little to familiar. Sounds like someone who might of scene the murder scene around the time the murders happened.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   

I have never been to that site, but I found it all on the web photos, and the old aerial photo from 63 on Tom's site here.

Interesting that the next series of pics north of Canada Del Molino, are entitled Canada de las Zorrillas on the Ca Coastal Records link above. Perhaps part of the origin for the name Z !!

Another bit of Zynchronicity for me, as my last name is close to that spelling.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 4:40 pm:   

It was someone who knew the victims and was familiar with the location, that's all.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 6:28 pm:   

"It was someone who knew the victims and was familiar with the location, that's all"

Tom, I agree 100%. If only it were not even longer ago than the other Z crimes (and I DO believe Z did this one) this would be the crime with the biggest chance of identifying the killer. This was definitely not random. It was personal.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 6:46 am:   

Tom,

Did'nt you have some postings on Classmates.com at one time requesting info from people who went to school with these students? Any responses?
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 15, 2006 - 8:53 pm:   

Scott I have been in touch with this classmate of Robert and Linda (through Tom)--he is in law enforcement--probably because of the killings..He believes this may have been the first killing by Z--however he doesn't have a suspect. I agree with others that this may be the best way to solve this case//if it can be traced back to a fellow student..
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 15, 2006 - 9:10 pm:   

My theory, which I have stated before, is the killer was a young military man stationed nearby. Away from home, he tried to date local high-school girls and felt he had been rejected by Linda. I think he was a few years older, maybe 23-25 or so, and felt awkward around women, so tried to date 17-18 year olds. He was either from the Vallejo area or was later stationed there and liked it well enough to settle there after discharge from the military. He was stationed at Vandenberg and was either Air Force or Navy (both test fired missles out of V'berg). He was a communications specialist in the military. I think it was Z and it was his first. That's it in the proverbial nutshell.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 15, 2006 - 10:22 pm:   

My theory is that this guy whom I believe is the Z, was working in construction For Roberts father and was fired. He wanted to get even so to speak. He followed the son to the beach,where he shot him and then the girl who would have been a witness.I think Z is gay, and that is why he never raped any of the girl victims.That could explain his handwriting looking very feminine.(The Donna Lass Christmas card).
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 6:21 am:   

I too have a theory that Zodiac was gay, due to his fixation on interacting couples. Stine may have been an attempt to throw investigators off the trail.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   

Vallejo and Sandy,
Do you two mean out and out gay or a repressed homosexuality? I think zodiac hated women, I don't think he was gay however. Maybe he was butI don't think he would ever admit that to himself. He seems to uptight.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 7:47 am:   

I'm not adamant about that. He may have been simply repressed, but definitely had problems interacting with women. He attacked at intimate moments, probably wishing he knew how to engage in that behavior himself.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   

Were the specifics of the D & E crime made public via the media prior to '69(ie. pre cut rope, shack, fire, weaponry)?? What I'm getting at is, would Z have been able to research this crime to use the similar MO at LB??
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 7:45 pm:   

I think repressed gay men hate other gay men a lot more than women. I think it more likely he was rejected by women, felt inadequate, and hated to see happy couples..like Robert and Linda--they were the "Golden" couple at Lompoc High, he was a football star and she a cheerleader. Popular, in love, everything he hated..I'm really convinced this was the first killings by the boy who became Z//
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:20 pm:   

Wrecknball, getting back to your first post on this thread, if the "refinery" you saw along 101 looks like a long narrow building (often with peaked galvanized metal roof) and 2 smokestacks, and a few oil tanks around it, the site would be a pipeline pumping station that heats the oil, to send it flowing up over the hills (Gaviota grade perhaps).

With Tom's help (above) I can spot Cyn Del Molino on my map (approx. 2 mi. E of Gaviota) & thus be able to scout out this area some day. Will report back if/when I do so.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:38 pm:   

Eric, From what I remember it was a large cylinder shaped refinery. I didn't notice if there were any attached buildings.

If you do indeed scout the area, check to see if there is still access to the crime scene via the trail.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   

I believe the road .5-1 mile north of the crime scene intersecting 101 is Vista Del Mar Road.

Anyone know where this road goes and if it was there back in '63?
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 2:36 pm:   

Did anyone ever figure out what aspects of the crime were in the media prior to '69? Could Z have been emulating location, the precut rope, the same mm weapon used to shoot them in the back, etc?

It's far more believable to me that Z did this, than for it to be all coincidence.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:20 pm:   

Davidmm, For sure it was in Santa Barbara papers at the time of the killings. I have clips of it from other papers, but I am not sure about the dates in those papers.When I am looking through my z collection, I will try to remember to check it out and get back to you on that. My guess is that he could have read it, but I also believe he did it.
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:18 pm:   

Sandy, Do the articles you have contain the specifics of the crime scene as we know it today(ie weapon caliber, pre-cut rope, etc.)?
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 5:46 pm:   

George Edward Gill is the man who built the shack the two were discovered in. Gill, 50 years old at the time, was taken in in December of 1964 and questioned regarding the crime. He was released three days later. He was considered a "prime suspect" for a short time.

I have always felt that whoever committed this murder was probably responsible for the one linked to below:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/205ufca.html
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 6:35 pm:   

Thanks for that info on Gill. The victim may have been down on the beach, as a surfer hanger on, or just taking a break from hitching up 101 or highway 1. The wide range in years between the attacks is a puzzle.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 8:46 pm:   

The link from Yarbchris wouldn't work for me. This might be the case referenced above...
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/205ufca.html
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 6:23 am:   

Its sad to say that a Jane Doe from 1969 will probably never be identified.

ET

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