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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 7:30 am:   

Forgive me if this angle has already been discussed. I didn't see any discussion in the archived message board.

Was Cheri Jo Bates murdered as part of a Satanic ritual or by someone with connections to Satanism?

The fact that Cheri Jo Bates was murdered late at night on October 30 has been discussed before, particularly since Z took the time and effort to mail his own Halloween card four years later.

The fact that the three letters, essentially taking responsibility for the Bates murder, were mailed exactly six months after the murder on April 30, 1967 has also been discussed.

Just so happens that CJB's murder and the resultant letters occured on two of the three most important holidays of the Church of Satan, supposedly founded on April 30, 1966 in a nearby town called San Francisco. The holidays of Halloween and Walpurgisnacht are secondary only to an individual's own birthday, in keeping with the self-absorbed nature of Satanism.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/arm y_info_church_of_satan.htm

SPECIAL RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS: The highest holiday in the Satanic religion is one's own birthday. Every man is a God as he chooses to recognize that fact. After one's birthday, Walpurgisnacht (April 30) and Halloween are most important. April 30 is the grand climax of the spring equinox and Halloween was one of the times of the great fire festivals among the ancient Druids. The solstices and equinoxes - which fall in March, June, September, and December and mark the first day of the new seasons - are also celebrated.

Does anyone else think that the Church of Satan would be attractive to a self-absorbed guy who names himself "Zodiac", adopts a nifty symbol resembling the Solar Cross and marks off his murders accordingly?

Howard?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 8:03 am:   

I don't think any organization would have been attractive to him, particularly one such as Satanism (or anything involving an emotive compontent) given the extreme rationality with which he comes across in his letters. There's nothing fanciful about Zodiac.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 9:25 am:   

Please explain further, Doug.

Z certainly presents himself as disaffected at times but at other times he seems to be a writhing ball of affect. "Please help me, Mr. Belli, I am drownding!". "I shall have great fun inflicting the most delicious pain to my slaves". Is this feigned emotion?

I think this dichotomy is worth further discussion.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:44 am:   

Deoxys, that's not even emotion--it's coldly calculated to have a particular effect. The Belli quote is strictly sardonic (and I think calculated to amuse) and the "slaves" quote isn't borne out by his actual behavior.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   

Great observation Deoxys.

The Bates murder and letters happened before Zodiac became Zodiac. I think he may well have been involved in some freaky type of fringe group at some point before he started doing his own thing.

In any event, Bates wasn't a hitchhiker or prostitute; she was specifically targeted. I doubt her killer planned her murder for a specific date, simply because there would be no guarantee he could even get near her. The letters on the other hand could have been sent at any time, so the date is curious.

Of course, the odds are Bates just happened to be killed the day before Halloween because that's when the killer had his chance, and the letters were sent on April 30 simply because it was the six-month anniversary.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   

Quite right, Tom; the 4-30-1967 letters appear to have been written in response to a story published that same day marking the 6 month anniversary of CJB's murder. One would also think there'd be a little more ceremony in a Satanic sacrifice rather than just killing her at a school and leaving her body between 2 abandoned houses. Why not abduct her, then kill her during a Black Mass or something, then hide the body? While anything is possible, it seems to be a crime of passion rather than anything else, and the date on which it occurred I suspect is nothing more than coincidence.

BTW, I'm not sure I'd describe SF as being a "nearby town" to Riverside. They're about 450 miles apart.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   

Points well taken, Ed, just an observation... I suppose it is also possible that Z, if he was indeed the killer AND letter-writer, sought to draw a red herring connection to the Church of Satan. Z did, however, seem to later exhibit a greater sense of ceremony at Lake Berryessa and killed in SF even if he had no particular affiliation there but who knows?

The refusal to maintain a consistent M.O. and signature is one of the most frustrating and fascinating thing about the whole case for me.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:02 am:   

I don't know about the signature thing... he was fairly consistent, but there are only 4 crimes to compare and contrast. It would appear that he kept adding signature elements with each crime, and even the MO was fairly consistent. If you mean that he used a different weapon every time, then yes, he was inconsistent on that point.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 5:00 am:   

Yes, adding signature elements, different weapons and then Stine, which to me seems different in a number of ways. I'm also thinking of radical twists and turns in Z's letters, perhaps orchestrated for effect, but puzzling nonetheless.

The fact that few of us agree on what KIND of guy Z was indicates to me that he did a fairly good job of changing speeds on his pitches.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 5:12 am:   

Zodiac could of been a part of a cult or satanic lifestyle prior to the murderous lifestyle. The satanic lifestyle could of screwed him up good and his twisted mind turned him in to what he is or was.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:15 am:   

He could have been molested by a Rabbi, which would have screwed him up good and twisted his mind as well. I guess anything's possible.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 2:55 pm:   

Where's A. Cabal, our resident Satanist, to comment on this topic???
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:09 am:   

Pinch hitting for Alan Cabal - No. 17, Warren B:

"No Satanic organization worth it's salt would have him as a member. Now, Halliburton's demonic High Priest, Cheney and his butt-boy Bush, well that's a different matter."
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   

My God, Warren, that was eerily realistic!

That's the thing about Satanists, Muskogee. You can never find one when you need one.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:38 pm:   

Deoxys, there was some mention - maybe on the wiped-clean slate - that Oct. 30 is in some parts of the country "Beggar's Night" when a few kids go looking for candy before Halloween. It is not widely celebrated - almost a prank in itself.

Given the fact that Z liked to blab about his crimes in cards and letters, if he was a member of some Satanic church, I would think someone, even the charwoman* there, might remember him and later come round to tell the cops. Never happened.

* Somehow a "charwoman" sounds just right for a Satanic church underling.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 1:48 am:   

October 30 is also known as Mischief Night or Devil's Night in certain areas of the country. It was a big deal in the Philly area where I grew up and "Devil's Night" was an excuse for folks in Camden, NJ to practically burn the whole freaking town down every year. I remember the discussion on the old message board. Depending on one's location, it was either a huge deal or non-existent.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that Z was a member of any Satanic church- just suggesting the POSSIBILITY that it could have been an influence for a fledgling Z.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 6:10 am:   

I also have to mention the Exorcist letter here (primarily because it woke me from an otherwise sound sleep). If the Jan. 1974 Exorcist letter is from Z (I personally believe it was), Z felt compelled to break a three-year silence to comment on a movie about demon possession.

Here's a good resource for anyone interested in the topic:

http://www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/COS.pdf

Beginning around page 745, there is some interesting discussion about the Church of Satan's response to The Exorcist which mentions Z's letter specifically, stating that Z "apparently shares Dr. LaVey's amusement with The Exorcist". It also discusses the significance of Walpurgisnacht in the Church of Satan.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 11:03 am:   

Deoxys said,
"That's the thing about Satanists, Muskogee. You can never find one when you need one."

You know, I was JUST saying that the other day... Warren did a great job, though, stepping up to the plate in Alan's absence. I shudder to think what he'd post for me in my absence, so I'd better stick around.

J Eric said,
"Somehow a 'charwoman' sounds just right for a Satanic church underling."

I have no idea what you mean by this sentence, but the last "charwoman" I saw was in the ME's office after a house fire.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 11:51 am:   

O.K., Muskogee...

In an effort to lure Alan back to the discussion, here's a smoking gun article that definitively links Zodiac, Satanism AND Dick Cheney:

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History /most_dangerous_game.htm
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:06 pm:   

Deoxys, that is truly scary.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   

A charwoman reminds me of the phrase "crispy critters" from Nam days.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   

A charwoman merely sweeps out the fireplace and carries away the ashes. She does not have to burn up doing it.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   

Gotcha, J. Eric! I had never heard the term "charwoman," and was wondering if you had mis-typed "chairwoman," though that didn't make sense to me either!
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   

If you ever watched the Carole Burnett Show there was a caricature of her as the charwoman on the closing credits of each show and on the final episode of each season she would appear in a skit as the charwoman.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   

Sadly, the story gets even more disturbing, Muskogee...

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History /most_dangerous_game_revisited.htm
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 6:53 pm:   

Speaking as a practitioner of Satanic principles, I must stress that the odds of Zodiac or Cheri's killer being a Satanist are virtually non-existent. Satanism is a life-loving, rational philosophy - it has nothing to do with human or animal sacrifice, child molestation, kidnapping, drug abuse and devil worship, among other things. The Church of Satan does not permit anyone possessing a criminal record to affiliate, and existing members face expulsion if discovered to be involved in unlawful activities. Satanists look upon criminal activity with nothing short of disgust - they steadfastly abide by society's rules of conduct and firmly support swift and sure punishment for those who disobey these regulations. Those who commit illegal acts in the name of Satanism are little more than frauds and pretenders.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 12:10 am:   

I understand where you're coming from, Nachtsider- the Church of Satan as an organization would never condone this kind of activity. You must admit, however, that Satanism surely draws more than its share of "pretenders" and disturbed people looking for an identity. The Church of Satan was also only one year old when Cheri Jo Bates was killed so those involved at the time likely had varying degrees of commitment.

BTK, as it turns out was a devout Lutheran and president of his church. The Lutheran church, I'm pretty sure, frowns on serial murder and sadistic torture but the BTK crimes were still committed by someone identifying himself as a Lutheran.

I'm not totally sold on the idea anyway but I do find the coincidence of early Z activities with the Satanic holidays interesting.

Welcome to the board, by the way...
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 4:54 am:   

Islam is supposedly a peaceful religion as well. We see where that gets us.

ET
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 2:50 pm:   

I think that most of you will find this as something pretty funny. Years ago I was on a hunt for Kathleen Johns. I found one who was living 10 min away from my home ! I brought that picture I have of my suspect. When she came to the door she was about the right age as K.Johns. I asked her if she was in fact the K. Johns who had a car ride by the possible Zodiac ? She said I was the second person who had been to her home asking that question. I told her I had a picture of a suspect that I wanted to show the real Kathleen. She wanted to see the picture so I showed it to her . She then said that this guy (she was very sure) belonged to the church of Satan in S.F.! She said that her husband Richard was a member of that church, and that I should come by later and show him. Needless to say I left and never went back. I can laugh about it now, but that day gave me the creeps.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   

lol Sandy...

Was the picture of Kane, RH or someone else?

So Kathleen Johns is a Church of Satan member... Who would have thought?
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 4:34 am:   

Deoxys, your remark about the Church of Satan still being in its infancy at the time of Cheriís brutal murder is right on the money, as is your observation with reference to Satanism frequently becoming a lightning rod for all manner of objectionable persons. However, I have to disagree with the point you raise with regards to commitment. The Church subjects all prospective members to an extensive, lengthy and strict screening process, during which any who lack the strength and dedication to implement the tools of Satan are swiftly identified and summarily shown the door. Hence, problems stemming from lack of loyalty to the cause are not issues that crop up among affiliates, and our ranks remain unsullied by societyís undesirables.

The Church was a much smaller organization during its early years than it is today, and Dr. LaVey was more personally involved in matters of administration during the period in question. Such factors would have undoubtedly heightened the efficiency of the abovementioned evaluation procedure, as well as the weeding-out of unwanted elements.

Please bear in mind that I do not discount the possibility of Zodiac or Cheriís murderer being pseudo-Diabolist kooks attempting to ape the lamebrain spook stories like those featured on Geraldo and Oprah (or whatever source of disinformation was around at the time), or one who sought to incorporate such material in their crimes as red herrings - after all, experts like Michael Kelleher have pointed out that Zodiac copied much of what he heard, read or learned, and that his understanding of such material was usually superficial. I feel, though, that it would be more accurate to label them as such, rather than deem them Satanists.

Dennis Raderís inhuman acts were the deeds of a hypocrite, while the atrocities of al-Qaeda are based on a vulgarized version of Islam that bears no resemblance whatsoever to its original, wholesome form, brought into existence by the terrorists as a feeble justification for their violence. The community at large recognizes the fact that the actions of said parties are not the policy of their respective religions, and neither Islam not the Lutheran Church have become synonymous with murder and mayhem. Odium aplenty, however, has been heaped on Satanists and our cause many times over all due to crimes committed by scum like Richard Ramirez, who have nothing whatsoever to do with Satanism. We are forced to clean up the messes that they make, and are made scapegoats time and time again for evils of all kinds that we are not responsible for.

I apologize if I have conveyed the impression of one who is ranting, everyone, but defending what we stand for is the right and responsibility of every Satanist. All I wish to do is put paid to the farcical portrait painted in lurid Technicolor by irresponsible sources, which the general population has sadly decided to fear.

Thank you kindly for the warm reception, Deoxys. I consider it an honor to participate on this board, where so many proficient and resolute individuals are providing a priceless service by keeping the Zodiac investigation unofficially alive with their amazing discoveries and tantalizing theories. Your painstaking efforts allow for the very tangible prospect that this seemingly unsolvable case will someday be unraveled, and I can only hope to hold a wick to what you have achieved thus far.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   

Your points are well-taken, Nachtsider. Any organization or ideology can always be hijacked by individuals with their own agenda and I do understand that Satanism is not how it is defined by the general public.

Glad to have your perspective here...
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   

I deeply appreciate your consideration, Deoxys. Society could truly use more like you.

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