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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   

This bearded guy was on my mind alot when I was looking into Cheri's case awhile back, and inlight of Tom's Library photo update I thought this would be a good time to throw this guy up on the board so we can rule him in or rule him out. Hopefully those with more knowlege of the case can clearup some finer details.

First of all, there were Military/Prison issue shoeprints found near the crimescene. How near?

The bearded guy was not Military because of the fact that he had a beard. Military personel are clean cut and shaven. Right V dave?

He was not a Student,Faculty member or Janitor, Because the people who seen him in the Library that night, never seen him again through out their remaining time on campus. Occam's Razor.

OK, let's assume he was Cheri's killer and he shaved his beard to render him unrecongnizable to those that seen him in the Library that night.

I find it hard to believe, rumors of this unaccounted for bearded guy didn't echo throughout the campus hallway's, and that this wouldn't raise a red flag to a fellow classmate seeing him whitout a beard the following day.

What we don't know, is the finer details like: How old did he look? 18ish, 21ish, 25ish? That makes a lot of difference.

What time did you notice him in the Library? 1:00, 2:00, 6:00? Again, this makes a hell of alot of difference.

How long was his beard? 1", 2", or was it a simple 5 o'clock shadow, and he could have been a soldier on a weekend furlough/drunkfest hangin out in a campus Library hoping to score off a freshmen college girl on the last hours of his weekend of freedom.

Now, here's what I think. Since Cheri's murder was overkill, I'm talking Nichol Brown Simson style overkill, that her killer was obsessed and angry over her to the point that, if I can't have you then nobody can have you.

This is why: I went steady with a girl in school from 8th grade to freshmen year in college. She was a cheerleader, voted most popular girl in highschool and became homecoming queen. But, the one thing she would do is treat everyone equal. It didn't matter if you were poor, got bad grade's or played sports, she would talk to you like you were her best friend.

My wife that I have been married to for 22 years now, was the same way, cheerleader, most popular girl and homecoming queen. Again, she would treat everyone equal no matter what.

I think Cheri Jo Bates was the same way. Along the way, some guy took her sincerity to heart and became overly obsessed with her. And when she denied his advances over the years, he eventualy became angree with her.

Yes, this guy could have been stalking her daily and followed her to the Library that day but, I would look to see if her girlfriend (the one she ask to accompany her to the Library) had a brother who may have known Cheri was going to the Library that day.

Any thought's on this?
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 7:36 pm:   

Yes Hawk. I have thoughts. First, you assume the beard was real. I don't think it is uncommon for someone planning a crime to wear sometype of disguise. Since her car was disabled, it is clear sometype of plan was acted out. The question, how detailed was the plan? Did it involve a disguise? If he did, apparently it was a good one since he has never been arrested. If Bates was being stalked, one would assume that her closest friends would have been aware.

ET
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 7:49 pm:   

Did you have to be a student to use the library? I seem to remember I had to show an ID at my college in the 70's.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   

If the beard was real, it would have been taboo in the military at the time, even the Reserves. After looking at the photos and reading about the death scene, any type of fake beard would have been torn off by the victim, imo.

Anyone could go into the libraries back then, even non students. You only needed the ID if you wanted to check out a book.
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 10:39 am:   

I am not convinced Cheri's killer knew her beyond that night. I am convinced that he projected all his feelings of rejection onto her and that accounts for his level of violence. I do think he planned the crime, the same as he says that he is planning other crimes (if we are to take the confession as real). Therefore a disguise is a distinct possibility. I would think, though, that a disguise makes the perp much more likely to be noticed by people--especially if its a poorly constructed fake beard, etc. But, if the perp has access to or the ability to purchase something of good quality then that leads us to other questions. Or it could simply be that the perp had several days growth and then shaved it off.
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 10:44 am:   

Re: Heavyset suspects:
Allen's absent slip lists his absence as Nov. 1, a Tuesday. Was school not in session on Monday, Oct 31 because of Halloween?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:37 pm:   

If this guy was Cheri's killer,the beard being fake doesn't seem to fit the scenario because she walked with this guy, and that indicates to me that she knew him. If she didn't know her killer, then what in the world could he have said to her that she would walk with him to (I assume) his car.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:35 pm:   

Dave is correct in that anyone could have gone to any college library and you would have only needed an ID to check out a book. And also correct that if it was a fake beard it would have been torn off in the struggle but that means nothing. If it was torn off so what, all that means is she may have seen her killer without a beard before she died. No one else at the scene did. And if it fell off all he had to do is pick it up and take it with him. Just because he couldn't find the watch, if it was his watch, doesn't mean he didn't retrive a torn off fake beard lying on the ground.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   

Hawk--good point. Somehow or in some way she trusted him.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 10:03 am:   

Hawk, while I think Ms. Bates knew her killer, I don't agree that her walking with him indicates such. I walked with a few strange guys when I was in college...one tends to feel safe on or around a college campus, whether that feeling is justified or not.

Young women are socialized not to "hurt" people's feelings and may ignore their own instincts and common sense in doing so.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 11:18 am:   

I'm put in mind of the woman who met Ted Kaczynski at a dance at the University of Idaho in the spring of 1969. Her account of the meeting sounds as if it might have been a carbon copy of what we'd expect to have happened between poor Cheri Jo and her killer, minus the car tampering, of course. Nice, quiet, good-looking, soft-spoken guy who didn't try to "jump her bones," as she related to me. To top it off, she let him take her back to her apartment, alone, and late at night.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 6:20 pm:   

I would guess that Cheri knew who her killer was,but didn't know him personally. She probably said hello a couple times in the past or talked about the weather and he took it as there was something between them. You don't always know that your being stalked until its to late. Anyway that might have been enough for her to feel comfortable taking him up on an offer of a ride home. Most of the time fake beards are noticeable,Most of the time! Unfortunate thing for a young girl with a bright future.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 11:06 pm:   

1966 was really the year the whole hippie culture took off. Up in San Francisco the 3 day Trips Festival in January ushered in the hippie counterculture movement and beards started appearing more frequently. The Sunset Strip riots in LA in the summer of 1966 saw lots of beards on the young people. A community college in Riverside may not have had too many guys on campus wearing beards but I'm sure there were a few.
A theater student could have had access to a good fake beard and would have had the knowlege and skill to apply it as well.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 3:01 am:   

Muskogee, when did you walk with the strange guys? During the day when class's were going on? This murder took place on a Sunday night around 10pm.

I wish Tom or somebody, would post an aerial view picture of how the layout was. The Library, where her body was found and where her car was.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 6:49 am:   

Hawk, I'm sure there is a crime scene sketch that has been released sometime in last 40 years. The sketch would show everyting you're attempting to find out from an aerial view photo.

ET
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 4:27 pm:   

Et, I can't seem to find one. I've looked. Ryan Olsen has a aerial pic with an x on it but, I only assume it's where her body was found.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 6:02 pm:   

I'm not certain where her car was offhand, but the spot Ryan marked out here appears to be close to where her body was found (I think it was a little closer to Terracina). If I remember correctly, the library annex was located in the A.G. Paul Quadrangle, which should be the building immediately to the southeast of the crime scene (near as I can tell from the plaques we found there, only the southeast half of that building was actually there in 1966). The annex was to the right side of the northeast section.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 9:54 am:   

Actually, Navy personel were allowed to grow beards until the 1990's....
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 2:34 pm:   

Kevin, the Navy connection is something I've thought about on three different levels.

1- Her brother was stationed in the Navy in Florida and her killer was someone who had once served with her brother in the Navy and had seen her picture and decided to stalk her. He was also from the Riverside area or went out his way to stop their for a few days and look her up. He followed her to the library and disabled the car. She didn't know him but he knew her brother and gained her confidence.

2- He had no Navy connection himself other than he was a friend of her brother and he was someone she knew too if even marginally. Someone she knew who could gain her confidence.

3- She was a retribution killing for something someone had against her father who worked for the Naval Ordnance Laboratory in Corona.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   

Hawk--you spelled Ryan's name wrong. And your grammer is atrocious!

Kevin--you spelled personnel wrong.

Johno--you spelled deceided wrong--you used their instead of there--

I'm the new grammer, punctuation, and spelling advisor for the board. LOL
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   

His grammar is pretty bad too!
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   

Ed, are you saying the v shaped building with the red roofs in Ryans pic was not the library? It looks as though it would have the same high arched ceilings like those in Tom's new pic's.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   

That is correct, Hawk. The annex was in the building immediately to the southeast. The building with the red roof was built just a few years ago, if I am not mistaken.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   

I need some Navy vet to confirm the facial hair timeline. If I recall U.S. Navy personnel were not allowed facial hair in 1966 but were allowed trimmed beards and mustaches starting around 1969 or 1970. I can place the time frame as watching the recovery of one of the Apollo flights I noticed several sailors had mustaches and the news commentator remarked this had recently been allowed.
If I am mistaken and Navy men could grow beards in 1966 that would certainly strengthen the Navy connection.
I also wish we had a better description of this bearded man. Was his hair long or short, was the beard a full beard, a goatee, neatly trimmed, a full-fledged ZZ Top beard or what? Long hair and beard would suggest a fairly early hippie, short hair and trimmed beard would suggest possible Navy (see above) and goatee might suggest a young professor or teaching assistant. Remember teachers and professors often go to libraries in addition to the library at their own institution when conducting research.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 9:33 pm:   

When I think of this heavy set bearded guy, I think of Leonard Lake. He joined the Marines in 1966, but I can't seem to find out exactly when and where. I know he got a section 8 and was discharged from Camp Pendleton in 1971. He'd be a good candidate for Cheri's killer.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 7:56 am:   

I was in the US Navy from 1980-1984 and we definitely could have beards during that time. As for 1969 - I was only seven years old so I don't really remember too much outside of the Batman, haha. More than likely than not, beards were allowed because it was kind of a tradition in the navy.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 4:10 pm:   

We only have the killer's words saying Cherie walked with him. He most likely was lying because he lied when he said didn't put up much of a struggle and we know that was untrue. She would not leave her car with the keys in it and the window rolled down, no way. My vote is one of the construction workers. And he didn't know her. I think the bearded guy has nothing to do with the crime. I agree with Tom, the killer never went into the library.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:57 pm:   

I agrree with you Colette the person who was responsible would have never been seen in the library. The library isnt very big and the librarians probably checked everyone going in and out, one thing that is interesting is the lack of windows.
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Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:55 am:   

Hawk, I walked with different people, sometimes guys, at all hours of the day or night. Usually I wouldn't START by going down some desolate dark alley with someone, but it's easy for one to wind up in that kind of situation.

One starts talking and walking, letting her guard down over a few blocks, and suddenly realizes she's in a more vulnerable geographic location. Then she tries to extract herself from the situation while not wanting to appear "rude." By then, if the other party wishes to do the woman harm, he has his victim isolated.

The only thing about this that troubles me is the proximity of the alley to the car. I don't think she just wandered in there without thinking.

However, the killer could have sat with her, talking, for quite a while, and building up her trust. I can see her getting scared about being left alone and stranded (and the fear that she might be approached by a "bad guy") and opting to go with this seemingly "nice guy."

One physical difference between Ms. Bates and me that might account for the situation being more like Hawk suggested and less like I suggested is my height and size compared with hers. I feel I'm less likely to be attacked by a stranger than most women: I'm 5/9" and was a firefighter back during college. I had some serious muscles, and could wrestle (and win) against most of my fellow (male) firefighters. While I certainly am not immune to being attacked, I'm not a victimizer's first choice.

While Ms. Bates was probably a lot stronger than her killer initially realized, she probably didn't APPEAR that way, since she wasn't excessively tall or "big." This may have given her attacker more confidence to do his thing.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:52 pm:   

I remember being in the library at Sonoma State late one night after class many years ago (this was probably 1992), and some cute girl struck up a conversation with me. We chatted for a while, and she asked me if I could walk her to her car. I said OK, and made sure she got there safely; the parking lot still had a lot of cars and was well-lit, but she obviously had misgivings about walking out there alone and must have felt pretty comfortable with me if she asked a total stranger to escort her. I never saw her again after that (little surprise there, there were some 6,000 students and about 60% of the student body was female, as I recall), but the point is, if something like that happened to me, it's entirely possible that when CJB found herself with a car that wouldn't start, she might have found herself trusting a complete stranger willing to "help" her, which might explain how she ended up between those two abandoned houses (ie, "Hey, I need to get some tools from my car, why don't you come with me?").
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   

What about the time frame?
The library closed at 9 PM and that was when she was last seen alive.
A scream was heard by a nieghbor who estimated the time they heard it at 10:15.
The coroner estimated the time of death probaly coincided with that scream and they estimated she died at around 10:30.
So what where they doing for over an hour?
The Timex watch that was found was stopped at 12:20. Did the wearer of that watch have it set to Central time instead of Pacific time thus the two hour difference or did it not break entirely when it hit the ground and kept going for a couple of hours before it stopped at 12:20?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 3:18 pm:   

Good question, and no one really has a satisfactory explanation for that. The library closed at 9 PM, however, that does not mean that the last person left at 9, ran to his or her car and took off immediately. There was the staff as well, who must've stayed behind tidying up etc for some time. That means that everyone didn't just suddenly vanish at 9 PM, which means that CJB and her killer must have chatted for some time until everyone else left, which could have been as late as 945-10 PM.

If that's the case, the killer must've positioned himself in such a way that he could easily start chatting her up when she discovered her car wouldn't start, then given her some BS line like, "Hey, this happened to me before. I had to let the car sit for 20 minutes before I could start it. I'll stay with you to make sure it can start, and if it doesn't, I have tools in my car to fix it."

In that way, the killer could've easily whiled away 90 minutes with CJB before killing her at 1030 PM.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

This is neat stuff. Tom Bone told me that something like that happened up at Chico State.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 9:44 pm:   

The person who heard the scream might not have the time right. Maybe it some other sound they heard and after finding out about the murder they imagined it was a scream. The watch might have wound down at 12:20. There are so many unanswered questions in her murder.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:17 am:   

Why didn't she lock the car and take her books?
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 5:19 am:   

Well I would say people were more trustworthy of other people back then, but I don't see how with all the crap that went on in the 60's.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:59 am:   

Remember, we're talking about California. As Archie Bunker once said, "at least if you're murdered in New York, the police can tell you why."
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:17 am:   

Speaking of books. If she checked them out of the library, would not that tell you what time she left the library?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:38 am:   

Dave: not necessarily. She could have checked them out at 8 PM and stayed in the annex another hour reading or whatever.

Doug: you'd have to ask CJB. Personally, in a similar situation, I probably wouldn't bother to lock my car considering the time of night and the fact that no one else was around. Other than 3 library books, what did she have to steal anyway?
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   

Weren't her keys still in the car and the window down? Her car was "her baby" and people said that would be unusual for her. It sounds like botched obduction to me. Then he couldn't let her live and she fought him hard.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   

Ed, I thought I remembered reading somewhere that she always locked her car.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   

People know me for always locking my car, and yet, I don't bother if I'm making a quick stop at 7-11 or something and my car is less than 50 feet away and in plain sight, which is funny because often if someone is with me at the time, they'll lock their door even if I don't! I'll also leave my car door wide open at the gas station when I go in to the cashier to get my change after tanking up. Maybe CJB was of the same mind...
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   

Yes, but leaving the keys is strange. If she was getting a ride she would have locked up and taken her keys. I think she was obducted when she got out to see why it didn't start.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   

Or she was going to call her father to come help her. She did have her bag with her. Most women would call their Dad/husband/boyfriend come take care of her and the car. I don't think she went off willingly with Mr. Killer as the letter said.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 9:58 pm:   

If I had left the library and found my car didn't start I would have gone back to the library and knocked on the door untill the librarian came to the door and told them my problem and asked to use the phone or have the librarian phone someone for me.
I have several more questions.
Did Bates and the librarian leave the library at the exact same time and the librarian locked the door and got in their car and left before Bates tried to start her car?
If Bates was trying to get her car started when the librarian was coming out why didn't Bates ask the librarian for advice or help?
Why didn't the librarian when leaving the building see Bates outside trying to get her car started?
Other people were leaving the library and she had been inside with them so why didn't she ask one of those to help her?
It seems like she left the library, put her books in the car, tried to start it and then vanished. But she is alive for an hour to 90 minutes after being last seen in library. No one from the library that night sees her trying to start her car.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   

I'm just throwing ideas out there. All we know is that she was murdered 90 minutes after she left the library.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:41 am:   

We really don't know that for sure either. That's what makes this so frustrating. Did she go somewhere with a friend, come back to her car and then get murdered? Why hasn't the friend come forward if that happened? Alot of questions and no answers.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 10:41 am:   

I'd guess that most of these questions people are asking in this forum are probably answered in officer's notes in the case jacket. Which, makes it difficult to come up with answers from people on the outside of the investigation (us for example). Inside these (non public record case jackets) are probably written theories held by the now retired or dead investigators. This is ofcourse, the case jacket hasn't been opened to the public which I assume is entirely possible.

ET
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:43 am:   

Maybe part of the time was the killer "working" on Cheri's car. If the librarian was leaving and just happened to catch a glimpse of a man helping a young woman with car trouble then why go check? The problem is being solved. And then after an hour of "working" or so with no luck the guy says, just follow me and I'll drive you home. Why should she feel uncomfortable with a guy who has just spent an ample amount of time trying to "help" her? And everyone may be gone by now, so who else can she turn to? Sounds kindof like the altruistic dude who helped Kathleen Johns on a dark night. And sounds like the same guy who uses a white marker kindof like mechanics use to write tread depth on used tires. And somewhere in the mix is a Phillips 66 map. And some embroidery skills, like used on old service station uniform name patches...Geez I am getting off-topic! Excuse my gibberish. I am back with you after a long Turkey Day holiday.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   

Breakout,
Good post.I have posted in the past about 'repair'time use as it related to the Bates case and her disabled VW.

Sometime back a friend helped me with my car.We talked as he worked.When he was finished over an hour or so had passed.When he left I looked at my watch and realized how much time can elapse in such matters.It surprised me.I then thought of the Bates incident with her car and the so called 'missing time gap.'

We don't know how much time was spent with her in the alley either after he grabbed her.He describes what he was doing,etc.,but for how long?Was he telling her what he thought of her?Was she pleading to be let go,etc.
How long did the struggle last?Hearing a scream/s around 10:15 or 10:30 PM does not give us an exact entrance time when the two entered the alley.

Or,before the attack did he talk about past attempts of trying to speak with her and her reluctance to talk?
Did she realize- at some point- she had a big problem on her hands and kept the conversation going in an attempt to keep-as did Hartnell with Z at LB- this 'unbalanced'or strange guy calm?

I have read and seen on TV where victims have said they KEPT talking to keep a stranger they preceived was posibly dangerous fro doing them harm.
Most of the time,he would finally attack them.Of course,these are the survivors,most don't live to tell about their attempts to diffuse the perp as did Johns.

I have read of some cases that the perp held on to the victim for 'several minutes' saying whatever was on his mind,but some escaped or were killed.
In this case the perp would render to the authorities what transpired before they killed their victim.

When you ADD-if this theory is correct-the repair time to the alley time we can find our missing time warp,in my view.
Of course,it is all conjecture as we don't have a witness or the perp to question-so on it goes as it should.

We don't know at what time the stranger arrived at her VW.Even if it were exactly 9:00 PM,which is unlikely,time was spent by Cheri trying to start the car so this takes up some of our time-line too.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   

If the libraraian saw someone with Cheri Jo Bates working on her car she would have been the last person to see Bates alive and we would know that. The librarian saw nothing.
I can't see Bates spending toom uch time trying to start her car. She'd have to relaize within a minute that it wasn't going to start and likely guess that she had a dead battery.
I don't why she wouldn't have gone back to the library before the librarian left to try to make a phone call unless the libraraina had already left and Bates was alone in the parking lot.
She would have had to been wondering how her battery could have gone dead and would have checked to see if she had left the lights on but saw that the knob was not pulled out and she hadn't left the lights on.
She would have tried to think how old the battery was, where it was bought from and why it would be dead if that was the problem at all, not knowing it's the distributor wire that's been pulled out.
Even if the killer had staked out the library in advance and knew exactly when the librarian and everyone else would be gone to give him the opportune time to be alone with Bates he still had no way of knowing exactly when Bates would leave for her car.
If they spent an hour or so together on the site it would have been fairly amazing that no one from the library or walking by saw her and her killer together, yet no one did.

I almost have to think that she knew her killer somehow and he showed up while she was trying to start her car and offered to jump start it but there were still some people in the library so to buy time before they left he said he had to go home to pick up some jumper cables and she went with him.
Now he was sure he was going to kill her but he wasn't going to drive to some secluded spot and risk her suspicions or risk her getting away so he's going to bring her back to the car. He's made up his mind to go through with it and he's going to kill her and she knows who he is so she has to die.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 7:57 am:   

Here is my scenario, though I can't put into any time frame:

He's disabled the car, waits for her to come out. Perhaps he spoke with her at the library.

Anyway, he tries to fix her car by playing with the battery cables. She is inside the car, with the window down so that she can communicate with him as he tries to get it going. They finally give up, and he offers to take her home. As it is very late, she leaves the books since she isn't going to do any homework that night, and leaves her keys in the car as she plans to call a mechanic to come look at it in the morning. They leave together towards his car.
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 10:12 am:   

If I remember correctly the battery for a VW bug is under the back seat. If he was fiddling with the battery he was inside the car. That could explain why no one saw him working on the car.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:23 am:   

IF} the Letter Writer, the Heaveyset Bearded Guy and the Killer are one and the same, then it could only lead to one person IMHO. That would be a guy who lives next door or across the street from Cheri and someone she knows. Someone who is 1 or 2 years older than her who over the years became obsessed with her. This guy could watch her from his own house and probably peeped in her windows at night.

Here's how it would all play out:
It's Sunday afternoon and he watches her heading to her car to leave. He decides to follow her and does so all the way to the Library. After Cheri enters the Library he quickly pulls up alongside her VW and pulls off the coil wire to the distributor.(Keep in mind that if he would have pulled off one of the other wires to the distributor, the VW would start and she could have driven it home). This is a plan he had already thought of sometime prior to this day while he was sitting around obsessing over her trying to find ways to be her hero and save the day.

After she leaves and tries to start her car, this guy just happens to pull up and offer his help. Since she knows him from the neigborhood and is in a desperate position she accepts his offer. As he begins pretending to work on her car, he's enjoying every second he has with her and wants it to last as long as possible assuring her that he will fix her car in the end. (BTW, battery cable ends are made of soft lead and there should be shinney fresh scratch marks on them if he used jumper cables on them.JFYI).

While talking to her, he can't help but notice how beautiful she really is. Her soft spoken voice, her sad and glassy bedroom eyes that sparkle like the stars in the night sky. This causes two things to happen, His heart sinks in his chest, and he makes a critical mistake like saying "You owe me a kiss for this". As he leans in toward her to collect his long awaited prize he has only dreamed of, she places her hands on his chest pushing him away and turns her head to the left holding off his advances. (Right handed women always turn their head to the left in that situation JFYI).

Having an unstable mind he can't handle her rejection and then his face turns demonic. At this point she realizes she needs to remove herself from this situation as soon as possible. So she pushes her way between him and her open car door heading back to the Library leaving her Car keys in the ignition.He races behind her, catching up with her at the alley. He clasp his left hand over her mouth and as she tries to pull his hand away, she removes his wrist watch. ( The Bates Had To Die letters were written by a right handed person by the way the letters contour, and right handed men always wear their wrist watch on their left wrist. JFYI).

And the rest is history.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 7:45 am:   

I once thought it was a false clew, but no more. It probably just ran down. I don't think it stopped because of impact with the ground; just remember all those old John Cameron Swayze commercials.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   

Hawk, that's not strictly true. Some right handers wear their watch on their right wrist. It's rare, but it happens (I'm not one of them).

BTW, interesting take on things...
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 2:39 pm:   

Hawk, A good scenario but I don't think this was a neighborhood guy. The cops would have looked into that. When someone is murdered for no reason they always look into who the neighbors of the victim are.
If he wasn't initially planning on killing her but just wanted a kiss he wouldn't have a pre-planned alibi.
If he has been creepy enough to be a peeping tom there would have been some history of her being wise to this guy and it would be known to her father and the guy's parents.
If he had a knife with him, which he did, since he wasn't planning on killing her he would have been someone who carried a knife around with him regularly and the cops would have zeroed in the guy right away.

The part of your scenario about the unwanted advances and him freaking out could be true. Also I agree that she did know him and he was maybe a couple of years or so older than her.
I think he was someone who knew her brother and that's how she knew him.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   

Ed, actually none of my JFYI's are 100% their just more than likely.

Johno, You said:
1."they always look into who the neighbors of the victims are". Johno I can't believe how many times I've watched Cold Case Files and or Forensic File where the cops overlooked the neighbor.

2."he wouldn't have a pre-planned alibi". Maybe you misread me. First of all his plan was not to kill her or get a kiss from her. His plan was to disable her car and be there to save the day because he is obsessed with her and wants to be near her and talk to her. But, he said or did something that caused her to reject him and that led to murder.

3."peeping tom" I'm not saying he was a peeping tom, I just threw that in as a possibility. It usually comes with the territory in obsession cases. And, if he was never caught looking in her windows then she wouldn't have known in the first place.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   

That's right, I read you right. Since he had no pre-planned alibi he would have nothing to back up his whereabouts at the time of the murder when police came questioning. If they ever did like you say they may not have.
He wouldn't have had to have been caught window peeping. There would have been some history though of him giving her bad vibes and a bad feeling about if he was looking into their windows and eventually driven to savagely murder her. There would have been something.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

Cheri supposedly worked at a bank, which would have made her visible to a good segment of the Riverside public. It might very well be that the killer became infatuated with her, as a bank customer, and took things from there; stalking her until he was able finally to corner her at the library and work himself into a position where he could have her alone. I tend to agree with Hawk on his point that if she spurned him it might very well have set him off. He doesn't seem to have come equipped for a murder.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:55 pm:   

Maybe he wanted more than a kiss?
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   

IF the watch belonged to the killer, then the killer was NOT the heavey set bearded guy.

I have a dress watch with a leather band I just found tucked away in one of my draws. It's overall length is 9". The pin side of the band is 3". The hole side of the band is 4 1/4". Making it a 7 1/4" band. I'm 6'1" tall and medium build. when I tried to put this watch around my wrist, the two ends of the band just touch.

The crimescene watch has a 7" band, and is pinned at the 3rd hole from the top. And thats a skinney wrist.

The only way I can see this working out is Cheri was wearing it or the killer had it in his pocket and when he reached in to retrieve his knife, the watch came out.

OR, the killer could be a girl. A scorned exlover of Cheri's boyfriend. That would help explain the overkill.

Here's something strange. According to Jake Warks site, the ignition coil was completely removed from her car. That requires tools. Not to mention it's a stupid thing to do if your just trying to disable her car. You can accomplish the same result by pulling off the coil to distributor wire and tossing it in the shrubs. Unless while the killer was working on her car he used it as a ploy to get her in his car by saying something like this part is bad but I have one just down the street in my garage. Strange.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 6:22 pm:   

Hawk, I was fairly skinny up until the time I got married, then I started putting on weight. Right now I'm 5'9-1/2" and just over 200 pounds, with just a little pot belly from drinking beer. For what you can make of it, my wrists are still so skinny that I don't bother wearing a watch.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   

Doug, Then I stand corrected. As long as it's possible then I'm good with that. Thanx
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 3:10 am:   

It dawned on me driving home from work that Cheri went to church that morning. Which could be another angle.

What gets me is that he disabled her car. Why?
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Serialprofilingfan
Username: Serialprofilingfan

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   

disabled her car hmmm...does that mean he was not as near to her as he would like and wanted to make sure that she could not get away?
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 7:14 pm:   

Yeah sounds like that would be the case.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 8:32 pm:   

Serialpro, can you be more specific as to what you are thinking?
You said: "he was not as near to her as he would like". Meaning he did know her?

You said: "to make sure she would not get away". Get away from what? Are you saying he intended to kill her?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   

Her car was in the parking lot, her body was found far enough away, that she would have to walk about a block and a half to where she was killed. If I remember it from when we went there. I think that he used a gun to take control of her once he got her away from the parking lot. The beard I believe was real, because I think the hair that was found in her hand was believed to be from a beard or mustache.I also thought that I read that not only was the coil wire taken but the distributor cap was removed. That tells me that he had to be pretending to fix her car because, all it would have taken was to remove the coil wire and the car wouldn't start. To remove the cap tells me that he pretended to fix the car. He wouldn't need tools for that, because a knife could turn the screws that hold the cap on. He did write that she put up a fight and it was a ball. I think that because she scratched his face, he went postal. Again just thoughts.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 7:35 am:   

Just a note - and I don't know anything about VW distributors, but the ones I dealt with in those days had clips that held them in place. You really didn't need a tool, although a screwdriver or knife would help. Good point about the knife, Sandy.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:42 am:   

I had an old VW and you could just take those distributor caps right off with your bare hands..no tools needed.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   

Could the engines of old VW's be accessed when the doors were locked? Was the hood release inside or outside?

From elsewhere on this site, there were two college students who balked at lie detector tests, but were later cleared with the DNA from under Cheri's nails.

There was a block of unaccounted-for block of time between the closing of the library, and the screams that seemed to indicate her murder. People also wonder why she didn't return to the library when she found her car disabled.

Could it be that she was with one or both of these guys after leaving the library, either talking or even driving somewhere and returning, and possibly she didn't discover her car disabled until after they'd dropped her off?

If the DNA completely rules out the boys' participation in her murder, perhaps they were worried about admitting that they were with her that night, which would have drawn an enormous amount of suspicion on themselves?
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   

According to edmunds.com:

The engine latch changed from a T-type handle to a push button handle in 1965, though other sites say 1966. If VW's were like many cars in those days, engine locks were not standard equipment.

Hood locks weren't required by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards until 1969.

I am not real familiar with Beetles or the model of Ms. Bates car, so I can't say for sure about whether her deck lid had a lock, or not.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   

I'm kind of surprised nobody has caught this -- from my 40th anniversary update, here's a police photo featuring a heavy-set bearded guy (looks like a beard, anyway) who seems to be avoiding the camera...
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 7:41 am:   

Is that a photo of Allen, Tom?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 2:43 pm:   

It does look like Allen when compared to his pics from the 1960s. However, I have no idea who the subject in the picture is.
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 2:14 am:   

He has a cylindrical item hanging from his belt which I assume is a flashlight. Janitor? Anyway, Good Eyes Tom.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 4:12 am:   

The lower part of the face is hidden in a big smudge.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 7:51 am:   

It does look like a beard. However, I notice there appears to be a gap in sideburns, which would make for a rather unusual (not impossible) "do." My guess is that he is probably a detective (sans jacket).
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 3:01 am:   

I don't think that it is a beard, but I think he has a flashlight on his hip. Look at the clock,I wonder if it is am or pm ?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 3:10 am:   

It is late for me to be up so maybe I am seeing things, but it looks like the head of a girl reading at the table, past him on the left a few rows back . She has med brown looking hair. I see a chair next to her on the right.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 10:46 am:   

What color are her eyes?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:56 pm:   

Yarbchris, She is looking down at a paper or light colored book, so I can't see her eyes lol. But she has some long lashes !
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:56 pm:   

I see what you're seeing, Sandy. However, I can't tell if it's a male or female.

Regarding the man in the pic: He doesn't look like a detective to me.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   

On second look, I don't think it's a person, Sandy.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:05 pm:   

It's a girl with anorexia so bad that she can fit into one of those magazine slots and still have enough room to get her arms out to hold a book.
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:46 pm:   

The stunt you mention I'm actually perfectly capable of pulling off, Doug.

Jokes aside, everyone, I feel that it would be of great help if we found out whether or not the man in the photograph Tom posted is somebody whom the Riverside Police Department already accounted for, questioned and cleared in the wake of their reconstructing the scene inside the Riverside Community College library on the night of 30-10-66 - such knowledge could conclusively determinine his viability as a suspect. Perhaps the case file or some of Tom's contacts within the Department who investigated the homicide at the time could shed light on the matter...?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:29 pm:   

Tom, It sure had me going. Douglas that is very funny lol. Now that I am wide awake its not a person. But the man in the picture has something that could be a gun in a holster. He looks like he is tall like 6-2 or more. Was it warm in Nov 66, no jacket ? I am guessing that this is a picture taken the night after her body was found ?
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 6:31 pm:   

Doug could that anorexic supermodel be a lesbian!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 6:53 pm:   

I don't know, Jim--I haven't got the skinny on anorexia!

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