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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   

Let's see, where were we? Oh yeah, I remember!

Has anyone developed a case against Arthur Leigh Allen that they feel would prompt a judge to sign an arrest warrant for him? If so, I want to hear it.

In my opinion, the time has come to wipe the slate clean and start looking at this whole Allen situation as if we were seeing it for the first time. If you're interested in participating, then do so by stating your top reasons why you feel a judge should -- this is assuming that Allen were still alive, of course -- issue an arrest warrant for Allen in reference to the Zodiac case. Please be as specific as possible. The person with the best "case" against Allen will win a "case" of their favorite beer from yours truly!*

Best of luck to one and all!

*(Value of prize will not exceed $35.00. If you do not drink beer, I will buy you the beverage of your choice up to the amount stated.)

(Special note to Howard: Note the date and time my friend, I'm officially 'spreading the love,' as you requested.)
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   

Scott, I can't imagine anyone would feel that Allen should be arrested and charged with the Zodiac crimes.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 8:33 pm:   

I know, Tom, which is why this is bound to be a very short thread. Isn't irony loveable?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 8:42 pm:   

Scott, it's 2006, not 1999.

Everyone knows the DNA didn't match.

What's with this fetish you see to have developed with dead horses?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 9:47 pm:   

Tom, that kind of rancor simply isn't in the spirit of the game and it has nothing to do with the DNA, or any other direct evidence. It's already a given that those things don't factor into the equation with Allen. I'm genuinely interested in whether or not anyone can construct a reasonable case against Allen, even at this late date, even if it's purely circumstantial.

Man, you've really become jaded over the years. If you don't want people to post ideas and whatnot, then why have a message board?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   

Scott, constructing "a reasonable case" and securing "an arrest warrant" from a judge are two entirely different things.

Which are we discussing here? If it's whether a judge should grant the warrant, I doubt anyone would be in favor. On the other hand, if the point of this thread is to build a case against Allen that you will find viable, we all know that won't happen.

So what's the point again?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 2:43 am:   

If they could find that crew-cut wig, I might be tempted to go for it. That, and his statements to the Cheney guy. Only the Zodiac would have made those statements. And owned a Zodiac watch.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

"On the other hand, if the point of this thread is to build a case against Allen that you will find viable, we all know that won't happen."

Now Tom, is that really a fair assessment of my critical thinking skills? I'm as open-minded as anyone else on this board. I'm really hoping that someone who favors the 'Allen is the Z' theory will chime in with a host of cool stuff on why they feel a judge should have issued an arrest warrant.

You wrote:

"Scott, constructing 'a reasonable case' and securing 'an arrest warrant' from a judge are two entirely different things."

I don't see that as being necessarily true at all. I see them going hand-in-hand to some degree. After all, it's not like a judge is going to issue an arrest warrant based on an unreasonable case, now is he/she? And we both know that people are tried all of the time with nothing but circumstantial evidence against them.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   

Scott, even I have never stated that Allen should have been charged with the Zodiac crimes, and he's been my favorite suspect for years.

Doug, did they ever find Ted's crew-cut wig?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   

I guess you're not going to win that case of beer then, Tom.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   

No need to, Tom, since he wore his hair in a crew cut.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   

In 1969? I must have missed that pic.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   

Gee, Tom, you must have missed a lot of pics.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 5:47 pm:   

Scott, if you post on my Zynchronicity contest thread, I'll join your ALA contest!!!

Crew cut wig? I'd love to find that too. I wonder if ALA wore a corset around his stomach to make himself appear younger?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   

I've yet to see a pic of Ted with hair as seen in the composite drawing.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 7:14 pm:   

Normally, I'd be more than willing to enter your contest, Dave, but I can honestly say there aren't that many Zynchronicities in my life. I'll give it some thought, though. But my "case" offer is still open to you and everyone. Let's tally the scoring so far:

Tom looks to have backed out before the chute was ever opened, so that's a big zero (0) for him.

Dave seems to be contemplating the whole scenario more than trying to win, but he at least gets a point (1) for showing audacity.

Surprisingly, Doug is in the lead and gets points for playing by the rules by presenting an argument or two no matter how ludicrous. However, he is going to be docked a point or two for his facetious tone. Once tallied, that puts Doug out in the lead with a whopping three (3) points.

Come on folks, this thing can still be blown wide open; it's anyone's game. If nothing else, one could soon be sipping on the beverage of their choice. Sean, c'mon man, I'll give you more than three (3) points just for presenting your letter/cipher theory.

The first person to 25 points is the Grand Prize Winner! Put your two cents worth in now before this offer expires!
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   

Scott, let's just get this over with quickly. The Arthur Leigh Allen File details the case against Allen. Now it's your turn to come back with one of your "that's laughable" remarks and we can get right back where we were before you started this thread.

(For the newbies out there, Scott doesn't think Allen is a viable suspect and he likes to make sure everyone knows it.)

Ok, we got it.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   

Actually, my motivations are quite the contrary, Tom. I'm encouraging everyone, especially the newbies, to seek out the evidence themselves given a specific scenario. Am I doing so to prove a point? Absolutely! But it certainly is not an attempt at egoism on my part no matter how much you may believe otherwise.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   

Back in Allen thread # 1655 I had posted that picture of Arthur Leigh Allen taken at Lake Berryessa with a crewcut wig on, reading the San Francisco Chronicle and sitting in his 12 foot inflatable 40 horsepower Zodiac with the word Paradice stenciled on the side and on the floor of the raft is a tackle box filled with ropes, knives, guns and matches and you can clearly see he's wearing a Zodiac watch and in the background is his 1967 Ford Zodiac. I'll see if I can find that picture again.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   

"I wonder if ALA wore a corset around his stomach to make himself appear younger?"
Vallejo_dave

That would be one HELL of a strong corset!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:17 am:   

Tom, I'll type this real slow so everyone can understand it. From what Mageau described of Zodiac, he had close-cropped, wavy, light brown hair, combed up and back in a kind of pompadour. Hartnell caught a glimpse of dark brown hair through the eye holes in Zodiac's mask. These incidents occurred on July 4, 1969 and September 27, 1969 respectively. On October 11, a number of witnesses described Zodiac as having short hair ranging in color from blonde to brown. Now it stands to reason that if Zodaic's hair were long enough on July 4 for Mageau to have seen a wave, or for Hartnell to have seen it at all through those eye holes, something must have happened in the interval between the LB and PH assaults. Let's put our thinking caps on and try to deduce what that something could have been.

Done? Now if you've got hair, you can wear it long or short, as your fancy dictates. If you don't, some other artifice is required--at least if you're trying to make a statement with the hair you haven't got.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:19 am:   

Honestly, Scott, I wasn't even trying. Not being a law enforcement officer, I'm not sure how much good it would do, but if I had a witness to whom Allen had been making blatantly incriminating statements, I'd use that as the basis for a prosecution, along with the ton of circumstantial evidence tying Allen to the crimes (there I go again; just ignore me).
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:26 am:   

P.S.--I've got plenty of access to beer, so if I win, please donate my prize to the Patrick Kennedy defense fund.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:39 am:   

Doug, what's with the sarcasm? You said Ted wore his hair in a crew cut, which I haven't seen. So shoot me.

Do you have pics, and did he wear it that way when Zodiac allegedly did?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 1:32 am:   

I don't know, Tom. There's only one publicly-available photo extant of him from approximately 1965 through the mid-1970s. I have seen such a photo of him on a biographical TV program, and I've been trying for quite some time to recall exactly what the program was so I can get a copy. When I do, I'll share it with everyone, copyright or none.

However, if I recall correctly, you're the one who in the past has argued that "crew cut" is synonymous with "buzz cut." It's not, and we've had that argument out elsewhere. Not only did no one (to the best of my knowledge) describe Zodiac at PH as having a buzz cut, but the composites themselves don't show this--they show someone with short hair that's stiff and uniformly combed up and over on the forehead.

I suppose what you're saying is that if we don't have a photo of Kaczynski wearing his hair close-cropped and dated October 11, 1969, he couldn't have worn it that way. I guess that makes sense. How about it, everyone? Does that make sense?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 1:40 am:   

So...you, the Kaczynski guy, have no photo, yet I somehow should have known he wore his hair that way? (And no, this isn't about the definition of "buzzcut" vs "crewcut"; it's about the depiction of Zodiac's hair -- in a drawing -- as directed by witnesses.)

I take it by Doug's post that he has no evidence Ted ever had hair as depicted in the SFPD sketch.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 1:42 am:   

Come on, Tom, this is a Mexican standoff. I'm telling you that Kaczynski could have cut his hair, and you're telling me that Allen could have grown his hair. So we're essentially even.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 1:51 am:   

I guess you forgot your rude post of Saturday, June 10, 2006 @ 12:17 am. I'm still not sure why you posted that.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:35 am:   

That wasn't rude, it was condescending. Let's get our terminology straight.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:38 am:   

Scott,
"C'mon man, I'll give you more than three(3)points just for presenting your letter/cipher theory".

I could have sworn I just did that on another thread and you had nothing to say!
Does it make a difference if I move it here?
I'll take the 3+ points though, thanks.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 6:36 am:   

Scott,
I am confident that professionals in individual fields of research would examine each aspect of the evidence in and of itself. Had a suspect been matched to the fingerprints but it was later discovered that the DNA was a non match or vice versa, I am also sure that that would be dealt with accordingly and search warrants issued.
I view my theory in the same light. If experts, examining this evidence, thought what was there was there by design, I see no reason why a warrant would not be issued.
Unless of course we can state as an absolute fact that Allen, couldn't have been involved in this case. If what was found was thought to be there by design it might at least provide a place to focus this investigation.
On the other hand if experts believed the findings to be flawed, I'd throw it in the bin.
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   

There was the theory that ALA might have had somebody lick stamps for him; therefore, DNA would not match him. But do you really think he would have the stamps lick, along with the sealant of the envelope. Furthermore, have somebody else transcribe the letter (no hand-writing match), place the letter into the envelope (again, no match, re: latent prints). That makes me believe that it could not have been allen.

Scott, I would much rather argue and draw out my earlier theory that if Z lived in Vallejo, he might have known ALA and framed him. If that would warrant a case of beer, then im in.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   

How 'bout: ALA goes to Atascadero State Hospital for a nice long stay away from da kiddies. No Zodiac communications come in anywhere. He gets released. Weird letters again come in to the media.

Scott, you can deliver that beer behind the Phillips 66 station.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   

J Eric, the only weird letter received by anyone after Allen got out that appeared authentic (at first) was the forged 4-24-1978 letter. And it is the opinion of myself and some others that Yellow Book forged it.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 2:31 pm:   

Considering that ALA offered up the bit about his bloody knife being used on a chicken, without being asked about it during his police interview, as well as the bit about his Zodiac watch, Most Dangerous Game, etc, I think he was a "John Mark Carr." He was someone who loved the attention, loved people to be afraid of him, and was so disconnected with "society" that he didn't mind misleading tortured people and frantic investigators. He was a convicted pedophile, so he obviously wasn't very emphathetic about his impact on peoples' lives. He was a, IMHO, a Great Pretender.

Were ANY of ALA's coincidental "convincers" established prior to the public release of the info? The quotes from Mikado & Most Dangerous Game, etc? I don't think so. I think everything ALA could link hiimself with was already known to the general public.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 3:48 pm:   

"He was someone who loved the attention, loved people to be afraid of him, and was so disconnected with "society" that he didn't mind misleading tortured people and frantic investigators. He was a convicted pedophile, so he obviously wasn't very emphathetic about his impact on peoples' lives."

How exactly does that make him a poor candidate to be the Zodiac? From your description above, it sounds very much like Zodiac to me.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 3:56 pm:   

David, for what it's worth, Allen wasn't a convicted pedophile until late 1974/early 1975, long after the Zodiac's main activity.

Further, according to Don Cheney, Allen told the "Zodiac" story in late 1968, prior to the killer surfacing with his letters.

If you don't believe Cheney for some reason, Allen was placed in Riverside the weekend Bates was murdered; he was attending an auto race at the speedway.

So here we have an individual with personality characteristics similar to the Zodiac's who just happened to be in Riverside a few years before "Zodiac" ever made his first noise. That's a heck of a coincidence. And, he just happened to be the same guy who Cheney decided to frame as Zodiac for reasons unknown.

Aside from the DNA results etc, how exactly is the above scenario more likely than Allen actually being the Zodiac?
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:03 pm:   

Tom, you've both stated that ALA was your favorite suspect, and also pointed out that the physical evidence seemingly clears him. (DNA, handprint, fingerprint, physical description, etc.)

I'm just saying that, even if ALA couldn't possibly be Z, a curious amount of the coincidental evidence seems to come from ALA himself, even Cheney's info. I feel like a dullard, not remembering exactly when Cheney first came forward with his story. But, provided a few years had passed, it seems reasonable to me that ALA made those remarks at a later date than Cheney remembers, especially if he was the big poser that he appears to have been. ("Boo Hoo, the cops won't leave me alone! By the way, want to see my Zodiac watch?")

None of my assessments of ALA are intended to imply he couldn't have been Z, I'm just saying that he had plenty of wacko-mojo, regardless of his guilt or innocence in the Z crimes.

I know ALA wasn't convicted of being a pedo until after the Z heyday, but I mentioned it to show that he was a predator and a manipulator, whether or not he was a murderer.

As far as placing ALA in Riverside the weekend of the Bates murder, it could be possible that he was responsible for her murder and not the Zodiac crimes, since there are so many "Z-disqualifiers" against ALA. But, of course, wasn't the Bates crime scene DNA a non-match for ALA?

Personally? I think that Cheri Jo Bates, Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards, were all definately murdered by Z. I also buy the notion that his replacement wristwatch, after the Bates murder, was the inspiration for his nome-de-plume.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 5:08 am:   

Personally, I seriously doubt the Bates murder was Z, though I do think it was what gave him inspiration. In his own words, "To prove I am the Zodiac, Ask the Vallejo cop about my electronic gun site which I used to start my collecting of slaves." This looks like a slip up on his part, here he admits that it started in Vallejo.
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 7:15 am:   

That is a very crucial point, Kevin - the phrase you bring to our attention seems tantamount to a confession by Zodiac that Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday were, in fact, his first victims. While I regard your observation to be one that has considerable merit, I have also attempted to formulate several alternative explanations.

One could take Zodiac's words to mean that he considered only the Lake Herman Road attack and the assaults subsequent to it as exercises in slave-collecting - perhaps this bizarre concept was one that he did not come up with prior to the first Vallejo slaying. Taking this line of thought a step further, Zodiac's statement could have been naught but a lie, crafted to draw investigators away from the fact that he had, indeed, killed prior to December 20, 1968 - the 1963 Santa Barbara double homicide immediately springs to mind. The reason for his doing so might lie with the possibility that he may have been connected to Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards in some way, or sloppily left one or more clues to his identity during the commision of the crime.

I whole-heartedly share your opinion that the murder of Cheri Jo Bates was not the work of Zodiac - there are simply too many disparities between his known behavior and the facts surrounding the case to make any positive connection. However, I have no doubt that he was in Riverside at or around the time of Cheri's death, and mailed the 'Bates Had To Die' notes as a cruel prank.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:31 am:   

I think that Zodiac was being deliberately misleading when he referred to Vallejo as being the start of his killings. (No where else does he want to "limit" his apparent track record.)
I agree with Nachtsider that Z's motive was probably his desire to distance himself from his "most personal" murders, which could be directly linked to his identity.

I can't get away from the conclusion that Z was involved/responsible for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates. The notion that Zodiac actually wrote fake follow-up letters after someone else commited a real murder and wrote a real confession letter which included many earmarks of Z's later writings, and then that "real" murderer just happens to have never been caught... Too many improbabilities for me to believe.

If we go with the "safe" notion that Z was a narcissist... Any second-hand activity that Z takes credit-for risks that actual perp receiving all of the glory for being "THE ZODIAC." Imagine the sensation if Paul Stein's murderer was caught today, and it was just some coke-head crook. Everyone would logically credit him with ALL of Zodiac's reign of terror, which, I can imagine, would be the greatest fear in Z's mind, someone else getting all his glory. If Z was walking down the street at Washington and Cherry and saw a petty thief run away from a bloody cab, I just refuse to believe that Zodiac would dash up, cut off a swatch of bloody shirt and gleefully use it to wrongfully take credit for the murder. That's absurd. To me, Cheri Jo Bate's letters fall into the same category.

And, to keep this on topic, if ALA can be linked to Cheri Jo Bates, then that's a great case for him being the Zodiac.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 11:54 am:   

I would say this serach warrant would be enough to get an arrest warrant:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenWarrant.html

They found the same brand typewriter they believed Zodiac used as well as a hunting knife with a sheath and rivets, exactly as described at Berryessa.

Where can I pick up my beer.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 5:59 pm:   

Ubpclaw: might I point out that the search warrant was dated on 2-13-1991, nearly 5 full years after that horrid yellow book was published. Allen could very easily have read that a portable Royal typewriter was used for the "Confession" letter and bought one himself. Unless it can be proven that he actually owned it as far back as 1966, that's hardly a smoking gun. Besides, one would imagine the font was compared to the "Confession" letter (if it was not, then VPD dropped the ball on that one) and there was no match.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 6:56 pm:   

The fact that the confession letter was the only one that was typed in and of itself should make one question whether it was from Z. Besides that, I'm very doubtful it was written on a Royal typewriter in the first place. Notice it's all in caps? If it's written on teletype paper as they say it is, it probably came straight out of a teletype machine (which had only caps) and not a typewriter. When I used to work on the ship as a radio officer, I had a teletype machine AND a Royal typewriter in my radio shack. Those Royal typewriters are VERY common.

At first glance, while the confession may seem like a Z letter, there are a lot of small things that say otherwise. It's probably best not to base anything about Z (sexual motive, etc) as people so often do on the confession letter because it is *not* a given that Z wrote it. If Allen had a Royal Typewriter, it means almost nothing.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 7:59 pm:   

Upshaw, Was the type Elite type ? Not all Royal Type writers have Elite type. It would be interesting to know that ,but like Ed said its not a smoking gun. In the beginning I do think that Allen wanted people to wonder if he was the Z, but once George went after him, he discided that maybe he went a bit too far.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:04 pm:   

Ed, considering the Vallejo PD recovered a highly suspicious knife during that very search and did nothing with it, I sure wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:33 pm:   

Good point, Tom, but Allen had 5 years in which to find a typewriter that could make him look suspicious. The fact that he had one after the publication of that damnable yellow book is meaningless. If they found one when he was a suspect back in 1969, then I'd be impressed...
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:50 pm:   

Allen had a couple of years to come up with the names of the mysterious couple he had a chicken dinner with, who were from Treasue Island, when he talked to Mullanaux after Cheney informed LE about him. He couldnt even remember their first names, when he said he was going to go to LB but went up the coast instead, his alibi for LB.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 12:20 am:   

Saying someone had a Royal typewriter in 1969 is like saying someone had a Commodore 64 in 1987 or an Ipod in 2007 - very common.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 1:38 am:   

Kaczynski had one.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 7:32 am:   

My family had one. I think everybody had one.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 8:21 am:   

Like Tom mentioned he also had the hunting knife (why they never tested it Ill never know) plus ammo that matched the type used in at least one of the murders. Cases go to trial and are won on circumstantial evidence of that nature nowadays, just look at Scott Peterson. I certainly think he did it, but did the prosecution have the proverbial smoking gun? No they didnt.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:02 am:   

I have similar knives and the same ammo (from the same time period) and I wasn't even in California or even born at the time of the murders. Any sporting outdoors person most likely would have such items.

My first typing was done on a Royal typewriter of that time period w/ both pica and elite.

There is nothing condemning in possession of these items alone. Of course, if they went through the process of getting a warrant, the cops investigating Allen should have at least tested/examined the items recovered.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:29 am:   

I've never worked in anything military, so I don't know about teletypes they use. When I saw the Confession letter, my first thought was that it looked like teleprompter paper/typefont that I'd seen in television & radio stations.

I think that excluding The Confession Letter from the Zodiac cannon, simply because it's typed, is vastly shortsighted. If it was from Z, along with the following handwritten letters, which many accept as being The Real Zeal, it was at the front end of his activity and he'd obviously not refined his PR campaign.

Look at the variety of his confirmed communications! Phone calls, letters, postcards, greeting cards, graphics, codes, drawings, trophies from his victims, etc. The inclusion of a typed letter is absolutely no stretch to my pliable opinion.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:34 am:   

Ed, I agree with you that it's significant that these items were found AFTER the Yellow Book's publication. ALA seemed like he would deliberately collect suspicious items to tease the police and further his own 15 min of fame. Like I've said before, I think ALA may have been closer to a "John Mark Carr" than to "Zodiac."
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:55 am:   

Yarbchris: You are correct, there is nothing significant about a person having those items alone. But when you are a major suspect in a murder investigation and the search warrant is specifically looking for those items the significance changes some.

Allen may have been the original John Mark Carr but I think that if it happened today he wouldve been arrested, whether or not he wouldve been convicted is a whole other argument lol.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 10:39 am:   

I had a portable royal typewriter back then, and still have it!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 11:23 am:   

I would like to know for sure who made a phone call (I believe it was in 1991) from Lake Tahoe telling VPD that Allen told him in 69, that he was going to shoot a cabbie. Didn't the warrent come right after that call ? As far as the hunting knife found at Allens, that wasn't the kind of knife used at Lake B. The knife used at Lake B., was more like a butcher knife that most people have.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 1:56 pm:   

This is from the police report:

The knife had a wooden handle and a blade approximately 10 to 12 inches long.

That knife was specified in the warrant and they found it, they just dropped the ball and didnt test it and compare it to the wounds.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   

Ubpshaw, I just re-read the warrant. It states: hunting knife with sheath and rivets. I just can't seem to find where it states "wooden" handle ? I didn't find that the knife was 10 to 12 inches long either. Maybe he lent it to the trailside killer that was the same kind of knife used at one of his stabbings. It is funny how the mind can play games to make us see what we want to see. I myself have a 12 inch long sword with a sheath and it has rivets, but it still was not the knife used at Lake B.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 5:10 pm:   

Sandy, being that police were serving a search warrant on a suspected serial killer, any knife that could possibly fit the description should have been seized and inspected thoroughly. I mean, it's not like Hartnell had been allowed to inspect the knife and measure it, etc.

The Vallejo PD dropped the ball.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 11:25 pm:   

I have my mother's 1934 Royal typewriter and have used it for years. Only thing that's hard to find nowadays are the red + black ribbons. Actually I think there's a second Royal out in the toolshed someplace.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 6:05 pm:   

I've determined where I want to live when I come back to CA. Just to the east of LB and north of Vacaville is Allendale! It's drawing me like a magnet.
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 7:59 pm:   

Law-enforcement should have used the serial numbers on Allen's firearms to determine exactly when he procured the goods, so that the likelihood of their being Zodiac evidence could be established. After doing so, they should have conducted rigorous ballistic tests on the weapons, especially on the scope-mounted .22 Marlin and short-barrel .22 Remington. If either of those rifles could be matched to the slugs that killed Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards, everything else would be a no-brainer. I'm flabbergasted as to why none of these simple investigative procedures were apparently executed.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 7:56 am:   

Nachtsider, Serial numbers meant very little at the time. There was no gun registration that I am aware of before 1968, which was triggered (pardon the pun) by Robert Kennedy's assassination. Guns could sometimes be traced by serial number through the manufacturor to the dealer outlet, but that's as far as it went. Remember, Lee Harvey Oswald obtained his Mannlicher through the mail in 62 or 63!

As far as .22 slugs, they are incredibly difficult to match, one reason they are preferred for Mafia hits. In 1963, long before neutron analysis, it was even more difficult.

Also, at the time, police had no reason to link Allen to Domingos and Edwards.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 8:10 am:   

Or, as Zodiac explained here: http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter2.html
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:33 pm:   

Warren, your information regarding serial numbers, gun registration and ballistics is very informative - thank you for sharing your knowledge. I still feel that investigators should have at least tried to trace Allen's weapons through their manufacturers to the outlets where they were sold, though - the dealers may very well have recorded the particulars of the transactions, including the dates on which they occurred.

As for sophisticated techniques like neutron analysis - well, we have them at the present, do we not? Allen's arsenal and the ammunition used at Santa Barbara are very probably still sitting in the Vallejo Police Department and Santa Barbara County Sherrif's Department evidence rooms - it is not too late to test them.

The police had plenty of reason to link Zodiac to the Santa Barbara homicide, as one can see here. In light of the fact that lawmen had plenty of reason to link Allen to Zodiac as well, they, of course, would also have reason to link Allen to Santa Barbara. Put mathematically, if A=B and B=C, therefore A=C.

Zodiac's statement of having bought his killing tools through the mail could have been a red herring like all the other fake clues he had left on other occasions. Those scorecard-like notations in which he claimed to have murdered far more individuals than he actually did readily come to mind.
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Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 11:54 am:   

Nachtsider:

Just a few observations on testing Allen's weapons.

Since the Domingos - Edwards murders are an open case, I'm sure the evidence has been preserved (although stranger things than evidence disappearing or being destroyed through clerical foulups have happened). Thoeretically tests can be run. The question is if Vallejo kept the Allen search warrant seizures after 15 years or so. He was never charged with a crime and the property may have been viewed as disposable and the weapons destroyed.

For tests to have been run in the past, Santa Barbara SO would have had to have asked Vallejo or the Solano County DA . Did they? For that matter, did Allen ever pop up on SBSO's radar any time during the active investigation? There would have had to have been at least a contemporaneous connection to the 1972 press conference where the Santa Barbara Sheriff first linked D&E to Zodiac. Did Vallejo get the info that it could have been a Zodiac crime? If there was no formal LE link at the time, it would not be surprising that a search warrant served on Allen almost thirty years after the murders and twenty years after the press conference wasn't somehow linked to what happened on that beach. Blame it on America's decentralized approach to police work. Institutionally, both Departments may never have considered any sort of link. Or at least the investigators who may have were retired or passed.

Tom's done great work on restoring the archived board, but the section on Other Possible Victims isn't up. So, I'm going on whatever I can remember but could be off base. Perhaps Det. Baker has some thoughts on this.

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