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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   

Continued from here.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   

Unregistered guest,I have a bone to pick with mr.Povich. I was called to go on his show along with some people who knew Jeffery Dalmer.I was told that I would be taking a plane at 6:30 in the morning from SanDiego. Someone in Ny. would meet me at the airport in NY. It was confirmed, I was up at 4am and at the airport by 5am.When I got to the ticket counter I was told that the ticket wasn't paid for yet. That was when he had a much better show, not the Jerry Springer like show that he has now. Now your other question, I have no idea why me, except that if the z was looking for waitress's in the Vallejo area I worked at a club on Springs Rd (water).Who ever he is he started out with love notes. It wasn't untill I got his lic.plate number in 88 that he turned on me and now calls me a bitch.Your guess would be as good as mine. I did think that maybe Darlene wanted me out of the way of her and Buzz Gordon,and asked him to take care of it.(That was just a thought).I have asked him why,on the phone but he wont say. I would love to meet with him face to face and ask.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   

SF Night Rider, I call it luck.If the police had taken off their blinders and looked at other people instead of focusing all their attention on Allen.Maybe we would have him by now.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   

Wineman, I take it you looked at his picture ? If more people could see this picture, and tell me what they know about this guy, like what other names he has used. I can check out the places he lived to see if he was at all the known Z places at the right times. Maybe then I can get somwhere.I have found one very good lead that puts him in Vallejo late 80's, playing Z games with a young boy.Another poster believes he is a man she got away from in the 70's.She saw him in Sacramento and in the Hayward area.I would like to hear from more like that who can Id him.
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wineman (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   

Sandy, I'm still looking for his photo. I mean from what I have read here this is one scary guy!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:10 pm:   

Wineman, Yes he is. I just posted something you might find interesting on the message board,under coincidence's. I think the z killer himself put this in the Vallejo news paper Aug 27th 69.He writes something about roaring like a lyon. I am a "Leo" the lyon, so it got my attention ! Check it out and tell me what you think ok ?
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Nightshade (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:39 pm:   

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/nightshadef iredancer/zod014.jpg

Sandy, does this guy look familiar? I have been playing around with the Z wanted poster, and I got it to look a bit like the man who I got away from twice.

The scary part is that my husband looked over my shoulder and asked, "Who's that? He looks familiar."

I hope not.

Nightshade

PS: OK. I'll go look at him. I don't think he'd recognize me after all this time.
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:50 am:   

Sandy, did you attend school or grow up in the Richmond area?
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wineman (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:25 am:   

Sandy, pretty interesting. Anything is possible with this guy. You mentioned that maybe he attended that Belli speach, anyway it reminded me of something. I heard a rumor that during the early 70's there was a huge costume ball in PH area of San Francisco, the Gov was there..actors..etc. Anyway, there was a rumor that Zodiac attended the party based on the fact that the guest list had some strange writing in it
...very similar handwrititng..and it said
"guess who". Do you recall anything like this? I think I heard it on KGO years ago.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   

Nightshade, That is a pretty good drawing and it could looked a bit like Kane, but it would be better if you saw Kanes picture. Tom I believe still has Kanes arrest picture on this site. Then you can go to the links Tom has, and find Zodiac Vortex to see the picture I have of Kane. Let us know if this is the guy you saw many yrs ago.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:06 pm:   

Anonymous, Yes I did go to school in Richmond,and grew up there untill I was about 12yrs old. I went back there many yrs later. Why did you ask ? Do I know you ?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   

Wineman, No I never heard of that, but I would like to know more about it. Sounds like something he would do. He loves to play taunting games.
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:35 pm:   

Sandy, thank you for responding. You mentioned that when this all started you had been at the Melody club in Vallejo speaking with some friends from Richmond. Later you were working at Lucky Lanes in San Pablo close to Richmond. I am interested in a person who went to high school in Richmond. He later attended the Maritime Academy in Vallejo. He occasioned Flamingo Joes. He attended CCC for a while in San Pablo. I don't know you, I'm just putting two and two together.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:46 am:   

Anonymous, I knew some people who did go to Richmond High. If I can help you in any way finding out where he is today, email me and I will see what I can do. Richmond has changed very much for the worst, I don't drive near there anymore. Is this person your Z suspect, Because around 63/64 I met a very strange person at Lucky Lanes who could have been Kane, who didn't talk, but had someone else do his talking for him.He was a older well dressed man about 35 - 40.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:19 am:   

An ammo can in your car? What did it look like and when did you find it there?
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Curious Cat (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:46 am:   

Doug, in one of her posts, Sandy gave the exact date of September 29, 1969, which was just two days after Lake Berryessa attack. In another post, she claimed that the ammo can was filled with felt tip pens.

What I like to know if the Zodiac killer for Hartnell-Shepard attack actually took any of the victims' belongings before leaving the crime scene?

Recently, Tom disputed a poster's claim that Zodiac took Hartnell's keys.

Also, who has the possession of this alleged Cecilia necklace now? Sandy? Or, the police? If the police, then did Sandy get a dated receipt for it?
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   

Hi Sandy-just curious if you ever looked at Toms three new suspects--did any look familiar-I'm interested in Emmett in particular. does he resemble your guy or what you think Z looked like? thanks
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   

Douglas Oswell,I can't remember if it was that greenish color or grey,but it had a clip like lock on one end if I remember, and a hinge at the other end. There were numbers embossed on it that stuck out slightly, I had it untill 1982 when it disapeared.My husband and I had the same days off Mondays and Tuesdays,I saw these things I believe on Monday the 29th There is a chance that it was Tuesday the 30th for sure it was our day off. And for sure it was before the discription of the LB costume came out or I would have known as soon as I saw it what it was. I still don't remember ever reading that the killer wore a sq topped black hood and poncho like cape. When I did read about the killing, I am pretty sure it just said a hood, I pictured a "ski mask". When I saw what was in my car, I thought it was someones Halloween "Chinese"or"Japanese" looking outfit ( the Logo ),and that my husband had given this person a ride maybe to the bar where my car was parked in the afternoon. My husband didn't give anyone a ride and had no idea where this stuff could have come from.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   

Curious cat, I resent the way you use the words she "claims" and alleged. If you think that I am making all this up then I suggest you stop waisting your time and mine. The necklace was loaned out to a SF privet investigator who wanted to show it to someone. I was reluctant to lend it to him, because I felt it could be a smoking gun. Everything else that I gave to the police was lost, so I didn't trust anyone with what I had left except maybe the FBI.He promised me he would guard it wth his life ! He misplaced it in only a week ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine just in case I lost it. Vallejo Dave has that copy in black and white. Sadly I didn't do both sides and in color, because the back of it was red with white spanish words of love on it. I still have the glass's with the tented clip ons ! When I find a investigator who I know I can trust with what is left, then and only then will I let them have it. I found one at Napa PD and he has asked me to wait, and to hang on to everything I have untill he has a chance to work on the case. Still waiting !!! Most of the police who worked that case are gone, the others just don't care I am sorry to say.They have newer crimes to work,they just don't have the time it would take to put everything together. I think sometimes they think he is dead.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   

Fredcasa, I just tried to see if I could fine these new suspects, but didn't see them under Zodiac suspects where I would think they should be. I can say this, that I have picked my suspect out of a picture line up after having been bothered by him for so many yrs.He is for sure the same man who followed me in 1968 Vallejo, and is still playing z games with me to this day. He is the man I took a picture of in Aug. 1990. That picture can be found on Zodiac links Tom has on his message board. The site is the Zodiac Vortex. The name is Larry Kane, it is however a AKA. Tom has arrest pictures of Kane when he was about 38 yrs old.Can you tell me where you saw this Emmett Please?
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(Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   

Sandy,

Where has V. Dave posted these letters???
V. Dave, can you link us all to these letters???
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 5:21 pm:   

I have not posted them anywhere. Sandy sent them to me in confidence. It's her call!!! I trust her!!
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Jack (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   

Sandy,---what's it going to take to get DNA testing of RH and LK re: any and all DNA from Z letters, stamps, etc.? It seems that you have some very reasonable leads and this should be done along with the blood spots on that book! Everyone interested in the case should really try to get this done!---- Also if the Soscol Bar was right next to either hyw. 29 or Silverado Trail that puts Z very close to Queen Of the Valley Hospital where CS died, right?---no more than half a mile? If Z put that hood in your car, he was very close on the 29th.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   

Sandy--Dave T. will forward the pictures to you--thanks for your help..just curious if the guy bottom right looks like your guy--I know he isn't but does he match the description? fred
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Nightshade (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:34 pm:   

Sandy,

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I've been trying to catch up on the tons of information here and everywhere else I can find. I think I'm also dealing with a lot of repressed emotional trauma.

Back when it happened (both times) I didn't feel that I could talk about it with anyone, so I repressed it. I'm remembering bloody knees and elbows, and having to pick gravel out with a tweezers from when I hit the ground the first time. The second time I was pregnant, but his car was going a lot slower.

It's all a small price to pay, however, for being alive. And, I think I'm actually able to talk about it more and more as I work through it.

The suspect in question's nose looks really close in this photo: http://www.olesin.50megs.com/zodiac/images/Kane_19 90.jpg although he looks a lot older than he did in 1970-72. I remember looking at his profile as he was driving, and telling myself that I needed to memorize what he looked like.

This one really looks a lot like him, but his hair was darker and different: http://www.zodiackiller.com/images/kanepic2large.j pg

If anyone has or knows of any more photos of this suspect, please send them or point me toward the links.

Thank you,
Nightshade
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:46 pm:   

Unregisterd guest, One of the letters is on the first part of this thread.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   

Vallejo Dave,You may post anything I gave you when you have time, I know you are very busy.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:57 pm:   

Jack. Yes the Soscol House bar was near hy 29,and very close also to Napa St Hospital.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   

Fred, As soon as I see them I will let you know, thanks.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   

Nightshade,Thank you for putting the link to Kanes pictures.The other picture you should see is kanes arrest picture he is much younger then. Tom still has it in the archives I believe. My other suspect who is connected to Kane is R Hernandez, I don't have a picture of him but he looks exactly like Paul Stine with more hair,he sometimes shaves his head. He looks more like the SF composite rather than Kane who looks more like the Lake B. composite.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 8:04 am:   

Here's a photocopy that Sandy sent me. I'll let her explain them. The ear ring has a D on it!
necklace2C:\mysettings\mydocuments\necklace2.jpg
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Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 11:35 am:   

Sandy,
Did you write the descriptions of the items on the scan?
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wineman (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   

Hi again Sandy! Tell me, where does Kane live now? I heard he still resides in the Tahoe area. The so called "peek through the pines" postcard was actually part of a brochure for a condo complex next to Ski Beach in Incline. What is your feeling about the "Kane~Peek throught the Pines" connection?? Thanks again.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:57 pm:   

Sandy, here are some references to the appearance of the hood that I found:

The Napa Register, "'Knife Killer Could Strike Again' Declares Napa County Officer," by L. Pierce Carson, 9-30-1969, p. 1A:

The surviving victim of Saturday's attack told officers that the killer wore a hood over his face that fell to a pointed crest on his chest. Painted on the black hood in white was the cross hairs symbol.

Vallejo Times-Herald, "Girl Stabbing Victim Dies In Napa Hospital: Multiple Wounds Fatal, Companion Listed As Serious," by Jane Smith, 9-30-1969, p. 1:

According to the description given by Hartnell, the attacker was wearing dark clothing, a shoulder length hood with holes cut for eyes, glasses, and clip-on glasses which showed through the hood. He flaunted the gunsight emblem on the hood where it came over his chest.

The Napa Register, "Investigators Cull Leads, But Killer Remains At Large," by L. Pierce Carson, 10-1-1969, pp. 1A, 17A:

The killer, who craves the notoriety his attacks bring him through the news media, left behind on Hartnell's car door dates and times of the three attacks and his "sign," a circle surrounding a cross, possibly the cross hairs of a rifle scope. The man also had the same sign inscribed on a dark hood which he wore when he attacked his latest victims on a remote area of the Lake Berryessa shoreline last weekend.

Vallejo Times-Herald, "2 Survivors Tell What They Can On 'Code Killer,'" by Dave Peterson, 10-1-1969, pp. 1, 6:

Another facet of his exhibitionism is the dark, square-type hood he wore during the Lake Berryessa attack. It was dark blue and displayed his "signature," a crossed circle painted in white on the lower part of the hood over his chest.

Through the large holes cut in the hood for his eyes and mouth, Hartnell saw brown hair and eyeglasses with flip-up sunglasses attached, he told officers.


St. Helena Star, "Angwin Couple Stabbing Victims," 10-2-1969, p. 1:

He wore a hood over his face ending in a painted crest on his chest. The cross hairs of a rifle's telescopic sight were painted in white on the hood.

The Napa Register, "Officials Sifting Clues In Hunt For Murderer," by L. Pierce Carson, 10-2-1969, p. 11A:

A hood he wore when he attacked the young couple at the lake Saturday evening contains a circle with a cross through it, presumably the sign of a rifle scope's cross hairs.

The Napa Register, "Manhunt For Crazed Killer Beefed Up By Two Agents," by L. Pierce Carson, 10-4-1969, p. 3A:

The killer wore a hood over his face last Saturday. On it were the same "cross hairs" mark that appears on Hartnell's car door.

Based on those descriptions, and especially considering the "square-type hood" comment in the VTH, it's very easily possible for anyone to have constructed a costume similar to Z's as a prank and left it in your car. As we know from the LB report, page 1, section 57 and page 23, paragraph 5, it was made of cloth, so whoever left the paper bag "hood" in your car could not have been Z.
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sabre fan (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 4:00 am:   

i think it would be fascinating if that was the actual hood,but i agree with ed.from the description it definitly sounds like a cloth,well constructed hood.if it was paper theres no way it would have been"almost to his waist".
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Anonymous
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 5:18 am:   

Ed As you said anyone could have constructed the paper hood. Anyone could have placed it in Sandy's car. How does this rule Z out. Please explain.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:49 am:   

Sandy, did the ammo can look anything like this?

ammocan
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:45 am:   

Jbeheath, Yes sorry to say, very sloppy writing.I was under a lot of stress at that time lol.(being shot at and all )I have changed my way of putting hooks on my Y's and G's, because I was told that was not a good thing.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:09 am:   

Wineman,It looks like he is still there, however I have found that a person with his "real" name moved from Lake Tahoe to the Napa area a few yrs back, with someone by the name of Dalton. His condo and phone have not been in his name,but the name of a casino owner and his brothers ex wife. The brother lives about 15 mils from me. This person also has casinos in LasVegas. The peek through the Pines could have been a clue to his where abouts at that time, or where Donna Lass's body could be found. I was up there a few weeks ago and noticed a road on my way back off of HY 50 named Sierra Pines rd "past the casinos".Something you might find interesting, I have some of the pages of Darlenes address book I wish I had them all, Graysmith has the rest of them.He told me that they are too hard to read.(faded) She has address's and phone numbers to Ski clubs in Tahoe, one in Norden, NV. Norden is the place that Harvey Hines believes is where Donna's body could be.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:52 am:   

Sabre Fan, The costume was in two parts. The hood was "cloth" looking that went to the shoulders, but was made from paper painted black with either shoe polish,or black ink.I believe it was more like black ink because it wasn't shiny, it matched the black cloth poncho in color and looks.The only way anyone would know that it wasn't "cloth" would be to touch it! Why would someone put this in my car before Oct 1st ? How would he know that it was my car ? He had to be the person who followed me from Vallejo in 68,that was the only person who was and still is playing games with me.Oddly enough he just happens to be a Zodiac suspect ! Smell the coffee yet ?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:56 am:   

Anonymous, Exactly !
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 9:13 am:   

Douglas Oswell, Yes that is what it looked like, but it was taller than that one looks. It was about 10 in.Maybe the angle your picture was taken makes it look shorter. Was this T.K.'s ammo can ? My guy has been to Montana, they both worked at UC Berkeley, they are a lot alike,except my guy likes to watch his victims die up close.Before TK was caught, my suspect tried to take credit for it by useing a high lighter on a news paper artical about the bomber and leaving it for me to see, I wrote to the FBI about the same time you were making the same connection. And here we both are posting to each other,stranger things have happend.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 9:42 am:   

Ed, Oct 1st was the first time that the discription gave a "square" type hood.That would be one to three days after I found it in my car.The word "square" was also used a lot back then,it ment the same as "geek" now. That discription on Oct 1st also said it was dark blue when it was black . I would think that who ever got into this "time machine", and that would be the only way he could have made the costume to put into my car before it came out in the paper. Why then wouldn't he make it in blue instead of the black one that I recieved ?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 9:59 am:   

We all know that Harnell spent some time with the killer and that he was good at remembering a lot of things.It is understandable that he wasn't able to recall every thing he saw ,like he couldn't remember if the killer wore gloves or not,yet he saw the gun in his hands for some time.If he couldn't remember the gloves,then how do we know if he rememberd the hood was made of cloth or paper ? It certainly looked like cloth, and could have been seen as cloth but in reality it was paper "made" to look like cloth by making it black to match the rest of the outfit.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:13 am:   

OOPs I missed the T in Hartnell.While I am still posting,can anyone think of how and why anyone would put these things in my car other than the Z himself ? I forgot to mention that there was also a name tag with this stuff, the name was Daniel Perez. I wondered if the Z was trying to put the blame on Daniel Perez or could he be a z victim from out of state ?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:38 am:   

Douglas Oswell, I just tried to send you a post about the victim #21 card but it wouldn't post on the Donna thread,so I had to come back here to ask where to see this card ? Also I find it very interesting about what you found about the shaft !Maybe Tom or Ed would rather I post only here ?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   

Sandy, I don't think the public has ever seen that card. It was listed under "Suspected Zodiac Correspondences," by the SFPD in their DNA analysis. I've written to SFPD asking if they'll release a copy, but as of yet there's been no reply. I have no doubt, however, of its existence.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   

Douglas Oswell, I see that it was a typo, 21 is #12 the pines Card. I have seen that one, I am still thinking about the GH in SOUGHT that was great thinking ! Maybe you could post that here for those who missed it ?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   

Doug, what card are you talking about? Monticello?
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Jack (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 2:20 pm:   

Sandy,--was the C neckless piece found in you car on 9-29-69 with the other things or later? Your experiences re: Kane are astonishing!----Why hasn't this guy been more completely checked out? Can you get Declarations from the girls who claim to have been abducted by him?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   

Sandy, until you posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 8:48 am that you found the hood and other stuff in your car on September 29th, every other time you told me the story you said you did not remember the exact date, only that it was between 9-27-1969 and Halloween, which is why I posted all those quotes. Otherwise, are we to believe that Z hung out in Napa for 2 (or more?) days waiting to find your car to put his stuff in (and taking the time to wash the blood off the poncho part of the hood)? Sorry, I don't buy it. The paper bag hood had to have been a prank by someone.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:33 am:   

Yes, Tom, the Monticello Card. Have you by any chance seen it?

Sandy, what I remarked about the word "shought" was that it might represent the German word "schacht." Many English words having a silent "gh" are of German origin; the "gh" representing a semi-palatal sound that has no equivalent in English. "Schacht" signifies a mineshaft in German, according to Langenscheidt's dictionary.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:26 am:   

Ed, When we spoke about the hood I told you that because Halloween was not that far away, I felt it was a Halloween costume. I did a lot of thinking about which day I found it, and it had to be on my husband and my day off which would have been that Monday or Tuesday. The costume could have been put in there Saturday, or Sunday night,but I found it in the daytime.I don't want to sound mean but I don't care what you chose to believe. I don't believe a lot of what you think either.I never said that I thought the man hung around 2 days looking for my car, he knew my car because he knew where I lived and worked.We don't know if he lived in Napa, Vallejo, or S.F.Maybe he was drunk or drugged out and thought my brown car was his brown car. How would I know any of that for sure ? All I know for sure is that stuff was put in my car, and I found it there. If someone wanted to play a prank as you would like to think ,it would have been a lot easier to put a bloody knife in my car. There were just too many things put there to be just a prank.Only time can tell what really happend,if the blood on the top of that book turns out to be the victims blood, then for sure we well know that for what ever reason he decided to get rid of it in my car.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:55 am:   

Douglas Oswell, Can you tell us more about the card,like when it was sent and where you saw it ? And thank you for the information about the mine shaft. I saved a news paper clipping about you and TK. Maybe you could look it up if you don't have it . It was in the Contra Costa Times May 15th 1996.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 10:40 am:   

Sandy, how much did you pay for that Zodiac watch you found in the thrift shop in Concord? And do you still have it? Have you ever seen another?

It's very interesting that those items were placed in your brown car before the press released the story!
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:06 am:   

Jack,I can not say for sure, but I thought it was in the ammo can along with 3 earrings, and a small sized girls wrist watch that had a grey leather band. Over the years this guy has dropped off many odd things,(the C. necklace could have been one of those times) I can't imagine there are a lot of men playing these silly games with me, somethings were in my mail box,on my front door step, in my garage, the back yard. One of the strangest things that happend was someone put a new package of hollow core clothes line inside a package around the mid 80's( some of my clothes line was taken about 16 yrs before) it was white plastic hollow core)anyone could have taken it, it was on my side yard and could be taken without climbing a fence. My home was after all just a few blocks from Napa State Hospital.I just thought it was strange that someone gave me a new one so manys yrs later.I found clothes neatly folded with shoes put in a bag and on my work bench in the garage. These were clothes from a stranger that would have been worn in the late 60's to the mid 70's. The shoes were called cloggs , the jeans were bell bottoms, the tank top was white and had a picture of a colorful bird like a parrot on it. The bag was from a chain of grocery stores from the central valley near where I live. The store name is Centro Mart. Who ever wore these clothes was at least 5-4 to 5-6 about 120#. There were no under garments with these clothes.They were found about 1982. These are all very strange things that you just don't make police reports about. They prove nothing, perhaps if they had blood on them the police might look at it. I found what I thought was a possible murder weapon about 15 yrs ago in a entry way closet. It was a 10 to 12 inch knife that looked like it had blood wipped off of it and at the tip something that looked like a piece of fat clinging to it. My water heater was on the other side of that wall and it had leaked into that closet that I very rarely used.As I was sponging up the water and removing things from the bottom of the closet, I spotted the knife which had two or three brass rivetts kind of like the lake B Knife without the tape around the handel.I took it to show my girl friends before taking it to the police,who by then had to be tired of seeing my face. Both of my friends said to just throw the knife away ! I didn't do that, I took it in and was told that it didn't look like blood to him,it looked more like rust. The fat at the end could be chicken fat or someone used it for fishing.He asked me what I wanted to do with it? I told him to keep it or throw it away. I get a feeling of depression when I go back to those days and how helpless I felt.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:29 am:   

Vallejo Dave, I saw the watch case in the window it didn't have the watch in it. I didn't by it,I sure wish did. I saw a Zodiac Watch in my home that Bill Baker had just gotten after christmas this past yr. That full shot picture of Kane I sent to you, shows a similar looking watch with a large face.I wonder if there is some way we can enlarge it, so we can see what kind of watch it is ? I can't say that I have ever looked close enough at Kanes or Henandez's watch to see if either one was a Z watch. The watch that the suspect had on the night of Jan 16th 88 had a black leather band unlike Bills Z watch which has a silver band.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:55 am:   

Doug, I saw a xerox of the Monticello card back in 1999 or so. (SFPD had a few non-confirmed Z correspondences mixed in with copies of the real letters.) As I recall, there was no handwriting included on the Monticello card and I couldn't fathom why it was even saved in the first place. Better safe than sorry, I guess.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   

Vallejo Dave, For sure if I had read or heard about the Lake b. costume before I found it , I would have to be brain dead not to take it to Napa PD asap. I wadded up the paper bag soon after I found it I threw it away, sadly never making a connection to the killing.For yrs I thought the killer wore ski type mask. The poncho with the 3in logo made me think it could very well be the Zodiacs ,but that came to mind much later. The first time I saw the drawing of what it looked like was about 87 when I was given Robt Graysmiths book.In 88 after he came into my work I started making police reports almost evey day and night about what was going on at that time. The police I reported to didn't have a clue about the Zodiac case ! One thank God had read the book at least,he was the best one Antioch PD had as a Det. He placed a call to Buz Gordon to make sure what I was telling him about dating Buz and living in Napa in 68-69 was true. Buz told him yes he had dated me for a few yrs ( it was about 5yrs 68-72). Antioch PD have a system where they let a Det. work for a short time and then put him back on the street to give parking tickets.I was unable to continuue reporting to someone who had some idea about the Z case.I am very sure they thought I was just another nut case, like they thought Pam H. (Darlenes sister) was.I fact as soon as I met Pam everything fell apart, and they didn't listen to anything I had to say. THey did ask me if I would take a polygraph. I said sure I would, then I could prove that what I was reporting was true. They never gave me the test.They did say that Pam and her husband had not past the test.Some of what Pam has told me I know is true because the same man was doing pretty much the same to me.Only he has never called and said to me : This is the Zodiac !I would think that if someone was playing a joke on me like Ed would like to believe , he would most certainly call and say: This is the Zodiac !He won't say who he is, only that he is my secret admirer. I know he knows that I know who he is, a that is what makes it more fun for him.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   

Sandy, then you're saying it could have been on Tuesday 9-30-1969, rather than Monday 9-29. And if it was on one of your days off, then how do you know it wasn't the following Monday or Tuesday, 10-6 or 10-7-1969?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   

Tom, can you give me your best recollection of what it looked like? I don't think it's an idle thing. Between that, the Pines Card, and the Donna Card there's a series of correspondences all bearing the same motif.
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Curious Cat (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   

Ed, at this point, what difference does it make if the hood incident occured in Fall 1969 or in Fall 1970?

The same question can be asked about Sandy's note. What difference does it make if the note was left for her friend in 1987 or in 1988?

Sandy can not try Larry Kane on this message board by using whatever that was left for her either by Larry Kane himself or by some other unknown elements connected or not connected to Larry Kane as incriminating circumstancial evidence.

Apparently, Sandy's credibility is at all time low with her local police departments, which have jurisdiction over crimes linked to the Zodiac. But is Sandy the only one who has been subjected to similiar blue brush off's? Hell no.

Only an independent special federal prosecutor might be able to shed some light on this Z case. Sandy's ordeal just by itself may not be enough to trigger the appointment of such a prosecutor. However, things may change for the benefit of impending good after facing so many years of cascading evil.
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fanman (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

ed
the mind gets a little fuzzy after 30 + years dont you think?i dont know about anybody else,but i really enjoy sandys posts as well her valuble insight in this case.what if the roles were reversed and all the stuff was put in your car and nobody really gave you a whole lot of credit?to top it off you have a lady saying she think basicly your a liar?how would you feel?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:41 pm:   

Curious cat, or whoever you are, it makes a big difference if the hood costume was placed in Sandy"s car prior to the time this info about Z's garb was released to the public!

If this is all true, Larry Kane should be picked up for harassment, if nothing else.

Curious Cat, the jury is still out on your credibility.----Sandy's credibility is at an all time high!!!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   

I never said Sandy was a liar, in fact, I've never doubted her experiences. I do find it curious that after telling me this story several times over the last 6 years, she was never certain of the date until now. And fanman, if I found all that stuff in my car, the first thing I would assume is that some friend of mine was playing a weird prank, not that a serial killer is stalking me and trying to frame me by leaving evidence in my car or whatever.

We don't even know who the hell this guy really is. Is Sandy being stalked? I think so. Is the guy Z? I sincerely doubt it. Is this the same guy who's supposedly stalking Pam? Apparently so, but that still does not make him Z. Ultimately, Harvey Hines believes that Kane is Z because he believes that Donna Lass was murdered by Kane and he believes that Lass was a Z victim based on a vague card that could have been prepared by anyone and could mean anything (note that I used the term "believes," because there is no factual evidence that Lass was murdered by anyone, least of all Z, and there is no factual evidence other than that vague card that connects Lass to Z. As I mentioned before, how do we know that Z didn't prepare that card to claim someone he didn't kill just to confuse police? He did it with Snoozy and Furlong, and Z lied about his ever-increasing body count, since no murders since Stine can be connected to him).

As it is, Hines is severely lacking in credibility, since he claimed he tracked down Fouke to show him a pic of Kane to see if he recognized him or not. Fouke said in an interview just 5 months ago that he did not remember talking to Hines. Therefore, if Hines is prepared to fabricate a nonexistent interview with a man who actually saw Z, how much more of his investigation to be trusted???
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Jack (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:01 am:   

Sandy,---The pain and fear you've had to endure over being stalked etc. all these years is very real and I'am so sorry you've had to live with it! If we could get the blood spots DNA tested and compared to CS, BH, and Kane and RH, that might be the smoking gun you refered to. You know when that book was put in your car and who has been stalking you;---if that's connected to them that would be very strong I would think? Let's get those blood spots tested and see what comes up?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   

I'm all for that. Question is: what if it's not blood?
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Jack (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   

Good question Ed, that's why we need it tested so if it turns out to be irrelevant it's at least off the table!----By the way something that's not evan in the ALA file but I always thought telling is the statement by one of ALA Valley Springs tudents that he would often use the phrase "Titwillow, titwillow, titwillow"----now isn't that odd that he would uae this very obscure phrase and then it shows up in a Z letter years later?--Any comment?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:12 pm:   

Doug, as I recall there was no handwriting on the Monticello correspondence; just words cut from newspapers. It eluded to other victims in the Monticello forest.

SFPD received hundreds of phony letters. Why they saved a xerox of the Monticello deal, I have no clue. Neither did the detective who showed it to me.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 7:39 am:   

Tom ,Have you seen the "Celebrity Cypher" sent to VTH post marked Oakland 9/25/90 arriving on the L.B. anniversary ? It was sent over to VPD who dicided to keep it from the public ? I have not seen the front of the card that shows Driftwood on Ocean Beach. The back that has the cipher discribes - Sandy Beaches - California.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 8:07 am:   

Jack, Don't feel sorry me I can handle it.In fact it helps in my dating, it sure as heck separates the boys from the Men lol. I would like to have the dna test done, but I would have to have the police want to compare it to the victims and the Zs dna as well. We don't know if the knife grazed the killers hand which happens in some stabbings.If it turns out not to be blood,DNA or prints should still be on the pages of the dictonary I would think.
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Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 10:53 am:   

Sandy:
DO you have link to the celebrity cipher? If so could you please post it.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 9:12 am:   

jbheath, I have not seen it in any paper or on any message board. I don't even remember who gave it to me,Howard, Tom, and I have exchanged information for many yrs, Ed and I, only the past few yrs. I have sent it to Vallejo Dave ,so you should see it by 6-6-06.I had to remove the persons name who recieved the copy from VPD, to protect him. He may have been the person who gave it to me.I am having problems with my computer so if I don't post for a while,that will be why.
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Jbheath
Username: Jbheath

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 6:48 am:   

Thank you Sandy, I can't wait to see.
VD hurry up and post it.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:18 am:   

Here is the Celebrity Cypher as received by VTH, and VPD, along with Sandy's solution notes. The small print at left bottom of card talks about "Sandy Beaches".
celebritycypher(2)C:\mysettings\mydocuments\celebritycypher(2).jpg
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   

The postmark shows that it was mailed from Vallejo.. The author also spells Herald as: (Herold)..as in Vjo Times Herald. The stamp looks alot like Jay Leno, hence the (Celebrity) cypher title!.. Just my observation.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   

How can you tell the postmark is from Vallejo?

Jay Leno--HaHa,big LOL. It appears to be a female on the stamp, from my view of it, but I can't tell who it is.

The Celebrity Cypher title comes from the fact that there was a daily puzzle in the VTH with a Cypher puzzle. This was not in the SF or Oakland papers at the time. It is in my local papers here.

I'd love to see the other side of the card, with it's depiction of "Driftwood on Ocean Beach". The small arrow on the card above appears to be pointing at CA Beaches anywhere from Morro Bay up to the SF area.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 5:51 pm:   

Dave,

Now that I have stopped laughing... If that is a female you see, you need to get an upgrade on your reading glasses. LOL... I didn't say the post mark was from VJO. I said that it was sent from VJO. The "Driftwood on ocean beach" may be a prelude to Fish Head Beach..
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

"A prelude to Fish Head Beach"?--14 years before?

Get real.---And you didn't answer how you know it was sent from Vallejo.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   

That doesn't look like Z's writing to me. The "deciphered" code has 47 characters, while the cipher itself has 61 or 62 symbols (the postmark would appear to be obscuring one of the symbols, but it's hard to tell). The cipher itself is already broken up into 13 words, and there is even punctuation, so why was the solution scrambled and then reassembled into different words? Plus, the same 8 letter word appears twice in the code (2nd from top on left and on bottom right), and yet it does not appear in the solution. The FLT 555 card mentioned is the paste-up card mailed on 12-10-1969 to the Sacramento Bee (found on p. 255 of The Zodiac/Manson Connection) and alleged to be from Z, and the problems with the Pines card of 3-22-1971 are pretty well known by now, so they can't be considered evidence that this Celebrity Cypher card is genuine.

And, to top it off, the solution (which can't be correct) isn't even threatening.

I suspect the reasons VPD kept this from the public is that it is pretty obviously a fake and not from Z, so why waste time publishing it in the paper? Maybe the VTH's excitement over this possible Z card faded to nothingness once it was determined it was a fake, and that's why they couldn't be bothered to publish it: it wasn't geniune Z and not newsworthy.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   

Dave,

Don't you remember the posting in the thread...."Was Zodiac a resident of San Francisco? You even commented about what I had to say about the Carquinez Strait and the Post Office info? I thought you understood.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 8:59 pm:   

Actually, there is a 5 letter and an 8 letter word that appear twice each (top first two words on the left, and bottom two on the right). I would suggest that, since it's a "celebrity cipher," a solution would likely contain a celebrity's name that has 5 letters for his or her first name and 8 for the surname. Oh, and the cipher must contain said name twice.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 9:38 pm:   

SF--Yeah, I remember. You still havn't answered how you know the postmark was from Vallejo! My father is buried in Carquinez Cemetary--I know what the definition of East Bay and North Bay is.

Most letters from up there are postmarked Oakland. How do you trace this one to V?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   

Sandy said above that it was posted in Oakland, not Vallejo.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   

The given solution is junk...

The repeated two-line sequence that Ed mentioned is likley some sort of name.

The last encrypted line on the left side is likely: Vallejo, CA
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   

Or Oakland, CA.
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Mike_cole
Username: Mike_cole

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:36 pm:   

SFNR wrote:

"If that is a female you see, you need to get an upgrade on your reading glasses."

Download the image and zoom in. VD's right...
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:55 pm:   

ED,

Posted? Or do you mean Postmarked? from Oakland and not Vallejo?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   

Postmarked. And if it was posted there or Vallejo, it's irrelevant, since that is unknown anyway.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 7:52 am:   

Sandy i sent you an email the other day with a document attached--did you receive it? fred
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   

Yes ,Thanks Fred.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   

The stamp is a woman. If this card is a fake I wonder why VPD hung on to it ? Allen was still their number one suspect.Maybe Allen was on a trip too far away to have mailed it from Oakland or Vallejo on that day ? If the words are correct and they could be,is he saying he is longing to hunt a young slut who uses a hotel to hide in ? That sounds like more of a threat than the card sent to Paul Avery "4-teen" Boo ! The first word looks like Robt to me.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

Ed, I think it does say Oakland in that line on the left.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   

Maybe I missed it, but what does that card have to do with Sandy specifically?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   

Let's continue this discussion here.

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