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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   

Let's get these 3 Bozos together and compare them.

Allen fits the bill-pedophile, diver, Zodiac watch, incarceration at Atascadero, Riverside presence, description fits, residence in Vallejo.

Kaczynski does not fit the descriptions--too tall, and protruding jaw, and can't be placed at crime scenes in Vallejo area or Socal. No Haight or Presidio connection.

Davis--somewhat fits the composites, was definitely in Vallejo, and had many Socal connections with his Manson activities, and Riverside presence. He was in the Haight, from what I gather.

My suspect is none of the above, but I invite discussion, pro or con, on these major suspects.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   

Here are some of the TK comparisons (of course, to me, the items that stand out as key and the most critical in comparing any suspect for the Z crimes are the writings - handwriting, style - and codes).

TK & Zodiac are both High Profile Killers who:

1. Communicated through Letters to the Police, Media and victims
2. Boasted of their intelligence while taunting the stupidity of their victims and the police.
3. Used murder as a scare tactic to gain national publicity.
4. Demanded publicity on threat of further killings.
5. Understood, designed and used advanced cryptography.
6. Threatened to strike a major target then said they were only joking.
7. Used disguises (TK definitely used disguises and describes them in his diaries - including the use of padding to make himself look larger; Z descriptions vary in many instances and range from around 150 to 200 - Hartnell Description of Z, "Fairly lightweight without puffed-up jacket).
8. Understood and were skilled in the use of weapons.
9. Were knowledgeable in mathematics (TK Math Professor; Z in coded message/and map describing radians and # inches along the radians).
10. Hunted and/or was familiar with hunting.
11. Designed homemade bombs - sketches of bombs shared some similar characteristics.
12. Shared similar physical characteristics (Full face, squared jaw, hair color in some of Z descriptions).
13. Spoke quietly, politely and precisely.
14. Had distinctive and similar hand-printing characteristics.
15. Had similar writing styles
16. Used same/similar phraseology in correspondences
17. Were deemed asexual and sexually frustrated (known of TK and suspected of Z due to type crimes, writings).
18. Took time off upon being seen.

As far as not being able to be placed at the crime scenes, none of the suspects can. Ted was a professor at Berkley from 67 - 69, so he had knowledge of the area and he was in the area during key Z events.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:51 pm:   

Ted was a Professor at Berkeley? That's news to me. Your little list is impressive, but infantile. I could make a list up like that about my neighbor! lol.

How about Allen and Davis? You neglected them.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   

I think she only has TJK on her list Dave.. Not a chance!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:00 am:   

Dave, everyone knows that TK was a professor at Berkeley until June 1969. And Linda's list happens to be highly accurate.

Dave, why would you assume that Allen as a known and convicted pedophile fits the bill for a serial killer like Z?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:04 am:   

My mistake. I thought Ted had a teaching Internship, and was not a full, tenured Professor.

I mean that Allen, and BD, both had a distinct criminal history. Allen, in his lust for 13 year old hotties, could have transferred that urge to something else sinister.

Linda, about 98% of your list could apply to all 3 suspects.
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UBPClaw (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:43 am:   

The thing that peaked my curiosity with Bruce Davis was his handwriting compared to the hand writing in the Red Phantom letter. If that letter is believed to be an authentic Z letter then I think it is the best indication to his true identity because he does not appear to be changing his natural writing style. Look at the 'M' on the Phantom letter compared to Davis' 'M', definitely very similar writing style.

Red Phantom Letter:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/RedPhantomLetter.html

Davis Writing:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/DavisWriting.html
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samhain (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:00 am:   

I thought the Red Phantom was the guy that stole the cars. They had him and his girl. Didn't he die before trial or even before they could charge him? I will have to re-read the story.

Davis is one sick dude. He was involved in more then he was convicted for.
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samhian (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:05 am:   

oops. You did not mean the Red Phantom killer (Texas). Sorry! I should have read your links 1st.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:12 pm:   

"Davis is one sick dude. He was involved in more than he was convicted for". Very well put!!!

Claw-I looked at that. Interesting. Z, however, had a distinctive lower case r that does not seem to match.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   

Dave - I didn't address Allen or Davis because their similarities to Z could more succinctly be identified by those who have performed in-depth studies of each. The main difference between Kaczynski, Davis and Allen (and I feel it is a powerful one) is that of all three, Ted is the only one known to have a need/desire to write and use code.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   

That is the keyword... "known".
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:18 am:   

You're right Night Rider. Zodiac communicated through writing and the use of code. There is no question that Ted had a penchant for writing and used code quite extensively. There is not one other suspect that has been shown or "known" to have these tendencies. With the intenseness that Zodiac showed in his form of communication, it is absolutely reasonable to expect to see this type of behavior from an identified suspect.

The writings and code are key to solving this mystery. Whether is turns out to be TK or someone else, if the Zodiac is ever truly identified, it is surely to be found that he had a need to continue to write and his use of code will be apparent. The percentages are extremely high that whoever the Zodiac was, this trait did not end when the Z killings stopped. Who knows, Z may have seen the light, changed his ways and may be an upstanding citizen today, but I'd be willing to bet, if this is the case, he didn't stop writing.
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Code Freak (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:43 am:   

Can someone link me up to these codes which were allegedly written by Teddy K?

Thank you!
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UBPClaw (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 8:38 am:   

VD - Since the Phantom letter wasnt in all caps like the example of Davis' handwriting its hard to say with absolute certainty. I would be interested in Davis' lowercase writing to compare the 'r' like you mentioned.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 5:50 pm:   

Hi, Code Freak... There's nothing alleged about the codes that were written by Ted Kaczynski. It is well documented that he had numerous coded pages in his personal diaries; however, I don't know of too many examples that have been made public. Doug had obtained some pages through the Freedom of Information Act and although not very clear, you can see a sample on his site at:
http://mysite.verizon.net/douglas.oswell/p9.html

There is another very good example of one of his coded pages from his secret diary in Alston Chase's "Harvard and the Unabomber." This code was written numerically on a grid or matrix and is noted that the FBI indicated they would not have been able to decipher it had it not been for the fact that they had discovered the key.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:27 am:   

Although there's always the possibility that it has none, I do think the 340 symbol has meaning. Just because it's never been deciphered, just means that no one's been smart enough to. As the FBI indicated when addressing the codes developed by the the Unabomber - they never could have been solved Ted's codes if it hadn't been for the key.

Code Freak - where can Manson's artwork be viewed?
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 11:34 am:   

I want to add to all here that seem to think that when anyone addresses an issue relating to Ted Kaczynski, they are saying with unequivocal assuredness that he was Z... That is far from accurate. He is only a suspect, nothing more; however, he must be considered a strong and leading suspect based on “known” factors of each and mustn’t be dismissed. I fail to understand how when Ted is discussed, the discussions turn to attacks on those presenting information. I have great appreciation for all who have worked hard on all of the suspects – that includes Allen, Davis and Kaczynski (not to mention the other few identified on Tom’s site).

I’ve chosen TK to be my favorite suspect because, in my opinion, Ted has one parallel that sets him apart from the others; his known writings (including code) and the striking similarities in wording, phrasing, punctuation and tone. That doesn’t mean that I “KNOW” he is the Z. Far from it…but added in with other things known about the Zodiac, he sure is an excellent suspect.
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Chari
Username: Chari

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:57 pm:   

I do not think Allen did it, he was going to kill, he would kill his young victims. TK, He more of a suspect on killing them, he alone and miserble. When they arreasted him in montana, they seen where he kept all of that from the bombings. I think that if he did, he got another house that no one knows and that is where he kept his zodiac stuff.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 1:42 pm:   

Linda,

If TJK is such a good suspect, why was he cleared by LE so fast? The only reason he was remotely considered was the fact that he was in Bezerkely at the time and he was a mathmatician!
Nothing more. He knows nothing about Vallejo or Napa county. The only reason he would know anything about Napa County was the fact he may have taken a wine tour at Beringer Bros. or Robert Mondavi wineries!
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:52 am:   

Nite Rider - now how in the world does anyone know he knew nothing of Vallejo or Napa County? Nobody knows what he knew or did during that period of time in his life. Ted certainly had plenty of time on his hands when he wasn't teaching to travel around the area and observe the surroundings...he was a loner and did not socialize with his peers.

As far as being cleared by law enforcement, they did so under the premise that his fingerprints didn't match and that Ted's MO's would have been different from Z's. As we know, those fingerprints cannot be confirmed to be the Zodiac's and MO's are not foolproof evidence of anyone's guilt or innocence.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 5:16 am:   

Linda,

Exactly,they had nothing that would hold up in court! I rest my case....
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UBPClaw (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   

Remember, Z claimed to look like the composite only when he did "his thing", then says he wont tell what his disguise consists of when he kills. There has been much speculation that he could have been wearing a wig.

As for Allen, I remember a lot of reports saying that Z was at least 6' tall and over 200lbs. Fouke and Zelms said he was shabbily dressed and had a portruding belly which Allen very much fits the description of.
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UBPClaw (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   

Just to add, theres no evidence suggesting the glasses were a disguise either. They couldve been a disguise, they couldve been real prescription glasses. Everything that has been discussed regarding his possible disguise is all speculation and guess work on what could be probable.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 7:50 pm:   

How did you know who Allen was in 1987, SFNR?
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 8:02 pm:   

Johno,

Thats par for the course, is it not?.... He was wearing shoes.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 8:42 pm:   

ED,

Let's just say, I heard it through the grapevine.
I knew various people and was turned on to him at that time, even before RG's "unmasked" came out. I would see him cruising around in his gray 65' Buick Skylark or his baby blue kharmin ghia ragtop from time to time.. He would switch off and on with the cars to drive to work. One week with the buick, and another with the vw. I would cruise past his house from time to time also. Now and then I would need something from the hardware store, so naturally I would head down to Ace for a lookyloo.... Why do you ask?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   

SFNR,
O.K. and if I go with the shoes explanation are you saying that he wasn't wearing shoes as you stood next to him in 1987?
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 10:08 pm:   

Johno,

No, although "Lee" ( which was the way it was spelled on his work shirt) walked like Fred Flintstone, he wasn't barefoot. Ok, I'll give another 1". I'll give him 5'11" how's that? Give me a break, It's been nearly 20 yrs... LOL
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UBPClaw (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 8:17 am:   

Keep in mind that given his health he couldve lost an inch or two from what he was in the 60's when he was healthy.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:42 pm:   

ALAC:\mysettings\mydocuments\ALA.jpeg
Does this look like Teddy Bear?
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   

Slap some horn-rimmed glasses and a crew-cut wig on that guy and you have Zodiac.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 8:29 pm:   

Davo,

He is alot thinner in that pic, than when I talked to him. When I frequented Ace Hardware, he was about 220-225 Lbs. Alot heftier. When was that pic taken, looks like about the time when he got out of Atascadero? 78 or so?
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   

According to the FBI, Ted's height is 5'9"
http://www.unabombertrial.com/investigation/profil e.html
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   

Ted was 143 pounds when he was caught as the Unabomber after living a hermit's life since the 70's. He certainly weighed more when he was at Berkley and under healthier conditions. And nobody knows for sure that Z was positively 200+ pounds. There are numerous descriptions in weight ranging from 175+; just the same as there are varied descriptions of height. These are things that are hard to judge and are basically guestimates from any witness.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:43 am:   

I'm not sure when that was taken. I found it on the net. Those 2 ladies look older than 13.

I would guess that he is 180 to 190 lbs. in the pic, a bit heftier than the 143 attributed to TK.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   

Linda,
Z's estimated weight(no witness had a scale!)was from "160lbs."to '200lbs +'.

MM said in Dave Peterson's presence in the summer of 1969 that the shooter was "short or about 5'8""and "young 25-30."FYI
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

MM is right! But, IMO he isn't telling all.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   

The following items seem to apply to Allen as a candidate:

1. Basements in California? Searching Realtor.com for available homes with a basement produced 43 out of 1,142 homes in San Francisco, 3 / 825 Vallejo, 89 / 2,546 San Jose and 16 / 2,325 Riverside. This would indicate approx. 0.02% of homes in CA with a basement. Allen lived in one and Zodiac referenced his.
2. Cipher Symbols – The square, circle and triangle with dots are navigation symbols. The partially filled circles are weather symbols for cloud cover. Allen was a Navy brat, as well as serving a brief stint in the Navy.
3. Diction from Zodiac letters included – Booboos, Meannie, Drownding, School Children and Boughten. These are words I would associate with a young parent or elementary teacher vs. truck driver or longshoreman. Allen was a teacher.
4. Misspellings in Zodiac letters. Any teacher who has graded spelling tests has witnessed every possible corruption of thousands of words and can easily use them (woeman).
5. Motorcicle- Not a misspelling but common slang among motorcycle owners. Allen was injured in a cicle accident ’64-’65.
6. Zodiac hates School children (why not just children?). Allen was discharged from teaching because School children reported him for molestation.
7. Allen resides within 4 miles of Blue Rock Springs and 14 miles from the Lake Herman Rd sites.
8. Allen resides 6 blocks from the intersection of Springs Rd and Tuolumne St (Vallejo) where the phone call was made after the Blue Rock Springs attack.
9. The Zodiac Bus Bomb letter pages 3 and 4 contained the words RILED and VENTILATE. Allen’s favorite recipes for Blackbird Pie and Chicken A La Cave Man contains those words.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   

10. Zodiac used the word NASTY in several of his letters (Bus Bomb 4/6, Dragon Card, Little List page 1 and the Exorcist Letter). In the ’74 Sheriffs report where Allen was found guilty for molestation he was quoted, “I know you don’t like it, but I’m just a NASTY man.”
11. Allen’s handwriting sample contained two technical errors. The word ‘for’ was spelled with an uppercase F, additionally he wrote the word more twice. The sample is amazingly small and seems easy to fake. Checking Zodiac letters for ‘pseudorandom’ uppercase F’s are included in (Little List Envelope, CaliF is misspelled), (Button Letter, you have until Fall-summer is lowercase) and (Riverside Desk Poem, Sick oF living-other f’s look lowercase). Allen’s other letters from Atascadero contain many uppercase F’s.
12. Zodiac letters have the number ‘4’ with an open top and the horizontal bar does not cross the vertical bar. Allen’s 4’s are produced the same way. Interesting the handwriting sample did not have numerals nor the entire alphabet.
13. Zodiac letters usually fill the entire page and often contain post scripts. Allen’s correspondence from Atascadero fills entire pages.
14. Zodiac uses lowercase letters for proper names ( melvin –Dragon Card), (kit – Citizen Letter) and (riverside – LA Times Letter). Allen uses (tim, al, mercedes – Satiddy Letter).
15. Zodiac uppercase Y’s have the same geometry as the lowercase (Button Letter) vs. Y y. Allen’s are the same (Satiddy Letter). Much was made about the three stroke K’s Zodiac used in his letters. I found the letter K in the ciphers also had three strokes unless they were rotated or reversed. Then they became two stroke K’s every time. The only other letter with a supporting leg is R. The ciphers with R’s are the same architecture forward and reversed. What would Freud say?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:57 am:   

Interesting comparisons.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 7:06 pm:   

Interesting list indeed, Ed, but all of it is purely circumstantial and pales in significance to the direct evidence. As we all know, Allen has been ruled-out using fingerprints, handwriting analyses, eyewitnesses, and DNA. To me, the most compelling direct evidence is the eyewitnesses and the fingerprints. It's pure myth that it was foggy the night Stine was killed, just as it's pure myth that the fingerprints on the cab can't be tied to the Zodiac. We now know, for example, that Pelissetti, who was the RO at the Stine crime scene, saw the bloody prints on Stine's cab even before he saw Stine's body. These same prints bore similarities to prints found on more than one Zodiac missive according to the reports sent to the FBI by SFPD Crime Lab. SFPD had (I use the past tense here because SFPD is no longer actively investigating the case) a great amount of confidence in those prints, and had been eliminating suspects with them all through their investigation.

In my opinion, Kaczynski is the best of a bad lot of suspects for the very reasons that Linda has outlined above. He'd be a viable suspect if it weren't for the fingerprints. Bruce Davis was arrested two days after the Stine murder with long hair and a partial beard; that rules him out based on the eyewitness testimony, among many other things. Allen has been ruled-out using ALL of the direct evidence. Personally speaking, I don't care if you can place Allen escorting Cheri Jo Bates from the library the night of her murder, or drinking beer at the Lake Herman Road location on 12/20/68, he still isn't the Zodiac.

That's my two cents worth; have fun all!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   

Lt. Bruton told Mike Rodelli and myself in October 1999 that he wanted fingerprints, handwriting and/or DNA. Looks like SFPD still has confidence in the prints, despite what Yellow Book wrote in his novels.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 1:10 am:   

We all know the best suspect statistically is Allen.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:08 am:   

Nice work John!
I believe Tom also had another excellent example of Allen spelling "lose" as "Loose", same as Z spelled it in the Belli letter.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 6:19 am:   

John, yes, good work. It all makes sense.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 3:26 pm:   

Jeff Andrews wrote:

"We all know the best suspect statistically is Allen."

We? No, "we" don't know that at all. Are you a statistician, Jeff? If so, would you care to figure out the odds that Allen is the "best suspect" given the known evidence?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:05 pm:   

Good job Jeff, we all know ALA has more credence than Ted K. He lived in Vallejo, and didn't need the crew cut wig, like BD.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   

John Hanson, I am very impressed with what you have to say about the way Zodiac wrote his letters and numbers. Would you please ( if you have time )go to Sandy's thread number 1 on this site, and check out the note I recieved from a man ? I have been told by one so called expert, that it is too much like the Zodiacs printing to be his. I would love your take on this. Thank you, Sandy Betts
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 7:05 pm:   

Dave wrote:

"Good job Jeff, we all know ALA has more credence than Ted K. He lived in Vallejo, and didn't need the crew cut wig, like BD."

Dave, that might actually be amusing if it weren't so pathetic. Please stop using the word "we" when it comes to ALA's (im)possible complicity in the Zodiac murders. Allen stands less of a chance of being the Zodiac than I have of being struck by lightning five times. Secondly, how do you figure that Allen wouldn't have had to wear a crew-cut wig considering that he was bald at the time of the Paul Stine murder? The Presidio Heights eyewitnesses, the best that this case has to offer, dismiss Allen as a suspect entirely. This has been corroborated using the fingerprint evidence and the handwriting analyses; what's so difficult to understand about that? The best circumstantial evidence against Allen is Don Cheney and Robert Graysmith and both are known liars, which doesn't bode well for the circumstantial stuff. I have no idea who John Hanson is, but his analysis of Allen's handwriting completely contradicts that of known experts who've dealt with this case in a professional capacity.

John, you've outlined some compelling circumstantial stuff -- three or four of the observations, as opposed to facts, are interesting, the other eleven or twelve can be dismissed virtually out of hand -- but when compared to the direct evidence, what significance are they? Out of curiosity, are you a handwriting expert? If so, what are your qualifications? I'd love to see the case against Allen that you and Jeff Andrews the statistician can put together. I'm not dismissing circumstantial evidence as unimportant, because many people are tried for crimes where the only evidence against them is circumstantial, but I can't think of a single instance where a jury convicted someone based solely on circumstantial evidence when ALL of the direct evidence exonerated the accused. Can you? How about you, Dave? I live to be wrong.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   

Scott~numerous and I mean numerous law enforcement persons have and do consider ALA the top dog of Zodiac suspects. This did not just come out of thin air.And do you think Don Cheney is the only one to tip off LE about Allen? His own family members did too. Again, not out of thin air but because they noticed traits similar to Z. There is not just a few things of circumstantial evidence, there is a whole, whole lot. Read the ALA file at this very site sometime. Though Yeller and Blue Books do contain factual errors about the case they are dead on about ALA. So, as you can see you might not like it but there is nothing wrong with saying "we" when talking about ALA cause that is the consensus. Know what I mean? Z said he left fake clews so you can focus on fingerprints if you like ALA laughed all the way to the bank!
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   

This is an excerpt from an article about comparative analysis which I thought may be germane to this discussion.

Geographic profiling is an investigative methodology that uses the locations of a connected series of crimes to determine the most probable area that an offender lives in. Although it is generally applied in serial murder, rape, arson, robbery, and bombing cases, geographic profiling also can be used in single crimes that involve multiple scenes or other significant geographic characteristics.

Developed from research conducted at Simon Fraser University's School of Criminology and rooted in the pathbreaking work of Brantingham and Brantingham (1981), the methodology is based on a model that describes the hunting behavior of the offender.

The criminal geographic targeting (CGT) program uses overlapping distance-decay functions centered on each crime location to produce jeopardy surfaces—three-dimensional probability surfaces that indicate the area where the offender probably lives. The distance-decay concept conveys the idea that people, including criminals, generally take more short trips and fewer long trips in the course of their daily lives, which may include criminal activities. Thus overlapping distance-decay functions are sets of curves expressing this phenomenon and suggesting, for example, that it is more likely that offenders live close to the sites of their crimes than far away.

Probability surfaces can be displayed on both two- and three-dimensional color isopleth maps, which then provide a focus for investigative efforts.

This research has led to the development of Rigel, a computerized geographic profiling workstation that incorporates an analytic engine, GIS capability, database management, and powerful visualization tools. Crime locations, which are broken down by type (e.g., victim encounter, murder, and body dump sites for a murder), are entered by address, latitude/longitude, or digitization. Scenarios wherein crime locations are weighted based on certain theoretical and methodological principles are created next and examined. The addresses of suspects can then be evaluated according to their "hit" percentage on a probability chart known as a z-score histogram, which can prioritize registered sex offenders, other known criminals, task force tips, and other information contained in databases.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:18 pm:   

Jeff Andrews wrote:

"N)umerous and I mean numerous law enforcement persons have and do consider ALA the top dog of Zodiac suspects."

Numerous? I'll bet you can't name two.

"And do you think Don Cheney is the only one to tip off LE about Allen? His own family members did too."

Family members? I'll bet you can't name one. And please don't even try mentioning Ron and/or Karen Allen; that is pure Graysmith fabrication.

"Read the ALA file at this very site sometime."

I have read it. It doesn't come close to superseding the direct evidence.

"Though Yeller and Blue Books do contain factual errors about the case they are dead on about ALA."

I see, so the notion that Allen got a speeding ticket at Lake Berryessa the day of the attack on Cecilia Sheppard and Bryan Hartnell is "dead on," eh? And the same with the road that leads from Lake Herman Road directly to Allen's house, right? Or, here's another doozy: That Allen's name is on the guest list at the infamous Darlene Ferrin painting party. Are those the kind of things about Allen that Graysmith was "dead on" about?

I've got news for you, Jeff, all of that is completely fabricated BS. Furthermore, even if that stuff were true, it doesn't make Allen the Zodiac. I don't care if you ramble off 100,000 pieces of compelling circumstantial evidence, these facts remain: the handwriting doesn't match, the fingerprints don't match, the eyewitness testimony doesn't match, and the DNA doesn't match. Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   

Scott, what do you mean by "direct evidence?"
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:39 pm:   

Scott~ this ain't rocketship science so I'll try to put in simple terms for you OK? You are trying to say this and that don't match. You forgetting ALA was smart man no dummy in IQ OK? You follow so far? Now, z said he left fake clews for bussy work. You still following? Now, have you ever wondered why the various prints from different lettters & the taxi have not been compared to see if they all match each other? You probably haven't so now this gives you something to meditate on. You keep saying name this and that.OK back at you. Name just 1 better suspect than ALA. You can't because he is & was a good suspect. Sorry if you wear blinders. You have to pay attention to these things. You wonder why when reporter interview him he said "if i die orif real Z confesses that'll cure it for me" Strange hugh? Does this sound like something a man not Z would say. Just goto the Sandy thread & ask if her stalker knew Ala and ask her about the painting party OK? You must not be too familiar with George Brawart.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   

Jeff, you really need to do more reading and less writing. As I wrote in a post above, the fingerprints found on Stine's cab have been compared favorably to those found on certain known Zodiac missives, as indicated in the FBI's Zodiac files in reports submitted to them by SFPD Crime Lab. Do you follow?

Also, I'm very familiar with George Bawart, that is why I said name more than one. George Bawart does not constitute "numerous law enforcement persons."
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   

Scott b, there are many Robert Graysmiths, Jeff Andrews, etc. etc., who are trying to make ALA as the fall guy so this Z case can be closed once and for all.

Everyone has weak points in dealing with this Zodiac case. I see yours. You see mine. So forth and so on.

Just because Robert Graysmith and Jeff Andrews think ALA was Zodiac, that does not mean he was. Tell me something that you have not said since past 10 years. I want to read some new stuff from you. Not these old boring ALA was not Z arguements over and over again.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:00 am:   

Sorry, Pop Corn, but until people get it, I'm compelled to continue down this same path.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:20 am:   

Scott, when Fincher's flick (based on Yellow Book's novels) comes out, we're going to see dozens more "investigators" like Jeff & John.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:32 am:   

Scott have you watched a show on Court tv or read a book where cops really thought they had a good case & when they went before a judge to get a warrant the judge said no way not enough evidence? Do you know how hard it is to get a warrant? The ALA search warrants were not magically issued they were based on something. A few coincidences could be dismissed yes but not the mountain of coincidences with ALA & Z. You know he admitted to being at LB day of attack. Do you know what the odds of that are? A school teacher and "school children make nice targets" too much coincidence means red flag. ALA was no simpleton he was cunning. Tell me Scott does Z come across as cunning or a simpleton?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:54 am:   

Do you know what's harder to get than a search warrant, Jeff? An arrest warrant. Three search warrants; no arrest warrants. You do the math.

Yeah, Allen was so cunning that he once paid a kid .25 cents to not tell anyone that he'd molested him. The kid went home and promptly told his parents. That Art Allen was a real genius.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:24 am:   

Uhh, Jeff, THREE search warrants were executed re: Allen, and not a single piece of evidence linking him to any of the Z crimes was ever found. Not in 1972, not in 1991, and not after he died in 1992. They may have been based on something, but whatever it was, it wasn't to be found.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:00 am:   

Can anyone point me to the place in Graysmith's book/s where it said Allen "did" get a speeding ticket at L.B or where it said Allen's name "was" on the guest list for that painting party?

Ed,
Didn't they find guns and pipe bombs and refuse to prosecute? Zodiac appeared to change weapons each time, doesn't that imply that he may have gotten rid of these after each murder?
What else would have been there to find? Stine's stuff? What is the likelyhood that anyone would hold onto incriminating evidence after they became aware they were strong suspects in this case?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 6:30 am:   

Pop Corn--LOL.---Well put.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 6:34 am:   

After the DNA evidence came out LT.Dave Jackson and Capt Tony Pearsall came out and affirmed that Allen was still their "prime and only suspect.
So apparently VPD (as well as Bawart)remain convinced that Allen is still a person of interest, despite all of the "direct" evidence.

How can it be claimed that eyewitness testimony doesn't match, when we have a professional officer(doing what graysmith and others didn't do) showing a photo line up to a witness (who was no more than 2 feet away) who identified Allen.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 7:35 am:   

Good points Shawn. And by the way John Hanson that is an excellent list you've compiled. I think it's intimidating for some because they can't just explain away everything on it even though they wish they could. Good point Shawn Z used guns and spoke of bombs even drew one, and what do they find at ALA residence? Do the math Scott. I'm starting to see one of the most important statements Z made was "leaving fake clews" Z sure has some following these false clews.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 9:06 am:   

Sean, who knows why they didn't arrest Allen in 1991, but the fact is, none of what they found could be linked to Z, so what was the point in the first place? Not only that, the very first time Mageau was shown a pic of Allen was 22 years after the fact, and even then, the only time he saw Z's face was after he himself had been shot in the face and was in shock. He even clarified his identification by pointing to another pic of another person and saying something like, "But his face was rounder, like this guy's." Some identification.

The fact remains that Allen was cleared in 1972 on the basis of handwriting and fingerprints, and cleared again 30 years later on the basis of DNA and by 4 eyewitnesses who had not been shot and were not under duress at the time they saw Z.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 9:16 am:   

Scott---You can call me Al.

The fact remains that ALA didn't need a wig! And Ted K's physical description is way out of the ballpark.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 10:31 am:   

Ed,
I stand to be corrected, but I believe Bawart said that had he not died they were intent on bringing a case against him (as Z).Not that there aren't other explanations but that is consistent with why they might not have charged him on those weapons/expolsive charges.

Had they found incriminating evidence linked directly to Z we wouldn't be talking now.While they apparently did not, what they found wasn't entirely inconsistent.
Also according to Bawart, mageau's words were "That's him, that's the guy who shot me"!
I haven't seen any other account or quote.

We have yet to hear anything from the teens as to their account, how long the saw this guy, what view they had etc.

There may have been a non match to Allen in 72 with regard to the prints and handwriting, however, he was hardly cleared.As pointed out previously, search warrants aren't easy to come by.Yet, despite all this direct evidence they were still issued and even after the DNA there are those who not only still refuse to rule him out, but insist he is still the "prime and only suspect".
In any case this is all about whether we should eliminate Allen entirely, there is still a mountain of circumstantial evidence and more than enough still missing from the "direct evidence" that suggests it's not time to do that yet.IMO
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 10:36 am:   

Incidentally Bawart (apparently) did things the proper way by showing Mageau a proper "line up" of photos. Whatever one makes of his ability to recall, he still picked Allen. Even if it wasn't (and we can only speculate with regard to mageau's ability) there must have been something familiar about Allen, for him to pick him out.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 10:38 am:   

When Vallejo Dave started this thread he wanted to compare three possible suspects.

Linda supplied a thoughtful and thorough list of what she views as elements which would apply to Ted Kaczynski. I would like to see some specific examples associated with each point. I ask this without discounting the foundation she has already established.

Intrigued by the potential of some comparative analysis, I then submitted 15 elements which seemed to apply to Allen.

Little did I know a guano storm was going to materialize.

My approach using the verb SEEM (to appear to be true, probable or evident) and the noun candidate (one that SEEMS likely) in regards to my post, inferred there are other people and characteristics which I have not considered. The post did not begin with –Here is a concrete list that proves Allen is the Zodiac.

The only arrow in my quiver associated with that post is compelling logic. That does not in any way carry an assumption that I MUST BE RIGHT.

The first item was an attempt to illustrate the sparse number of basements in California. The technique was cited as well as the source of information and the associated results. I was attempting to communicate this data with a process for individual validation or enhancements.

If my post is little more than a disjointed list of non sequitur information, so be it. I would like to apologize for wasting your time and frustrating your processes.
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:15 am:   

John Hanson, ALA is dead and gone. He was not Z. No one can ever convict him of being Z in a court of law simple because he is dead.

So why beat a dead horse who had nothing to do with this Z case?

If you think you have something useful to contribute to this unsolved z case, by all means, come out with it. I am all ears.

If I can listen to Carl, I can listen to anyone. But please, do not try to muddy this case more than it is now.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:26 am:   

Does anyone know if Sherwood Morrill had more to go on (full proper samples of Allen's handwriting) other than what he provided at the search that time?

Tom's handwriting comparison (though limited)still continues to impress/
www.zodiackiller.com/AZWriting.html
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:45 am:   

John Hanson, nonsense, you are not wasting anyone's time. Your list,just like Linda's list gives people points to meditate on instead of just taking Scott's word that we are wrong. Sean, sorry I called you Shawn sometimes I type faster than I spell. People John can use your list and the ALA file here and the archived area to make THEIR OWN informed decisions.We don't need Scott doing our thinking for us.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:56 am:   

I wonder if Mageau was ever shown the composite of the suspicious, round faced individual seen in the Berryessa area on the day of the murders?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   

John Hanson--You have not addressed Bruce Davis. Any reason?----Tom Hanson directed the original Zodiac movie in 1971. Are you a relative?

Jeff--good comments. I don't want Scott doing my thinking for me either.----He has some good points, but let me do my own thinking!
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   

Sean, Tom Voigt's presentation of a comparision of sample handwritings of Z and ALA just speak for themselves.

Do you still wonder as to why ALA was cleared on handwriting angle (http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenMorrill1.html)?

Regardless of what present day anti-morrill squads wish to spew, Sherwood Morrill still remined a national handwriting expert. It does not matter if I am impressed or you are impressed. Morril was not impressed.

Who is going to top his z work off? Name your experts if you have any. Let us know if there are impressed?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   

When did I ever say you weren't allowed to do your own thinking? Am I not allowed to voice my own dissenting view on Allen's viability as a Zodiac suspect? I will say this, however: I'm done arguing with people who clearly don't know or understand the full ramifications of the evidence that is available. It's clear to me that Sean has an agenda because of his supposed discoveries in the Zodiac letters, and that Jeff Andrews and Vallejo Dave simply don't know what they are talking about. Just yesterday Jeff proclaimed that Allen's own family implicated him, which clearly isn't true, and VD asserts that a bald man wouldn't have needed a wig to fit the eyewitness descriptions. Need I say more? John Hanson, on the other hand, has taken the time to put together an interesting list, which is the first thing I said in my first post in this thread. Clearly, John has a mind of his own, but it's also clear that Jeff Andrews and VD DO need someone to help them think because they both are clearly misrepresenting the facts.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   

Scott,
I've never hidden the fact that my continued interest in Allen comes from my "supposed discoveries" in the Zodiac letters, in fact, I've stated it openly.It only becomes an "agenda" if I'm willing to sit here and be dishonest and I'm not, I simply disagree with you.I would have thought Scott,that I have explained that to you both here and privately on many occasions.
To that end your comment is both offensive and insulting.
But then it always seems to come down to this with you. I have offered on numerous occassions to discuss out ever single point but half way through, your off...!
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:13 pm:   

Stating that you have an agenda is not offensive or insulting, Sean, it's the truth. As usual, you're getting defensive because I'm demonstrating the facts in plain and simple terms. Furthermore, I've tried to give you my opinion of your findings but, as usual, you dismiss them because they aren't in keeping with your conclusions.
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   

Sean, I suggest you to make a thread to prsent your code work in realtion your discoveries that ALA was Zodiac. I hope Tom do not object.

Can you present a consistent formula as you go through your presentation? Or, are you going to change your decoding method from topic to topic in order to get what you are looking for?

To begin this inquiry, I put to you this question: "You discovered I COMRADE V, however, why did you leave out X?"

Was it because you missed it? Or, was it because you just saw it fit not to include it because of your position?

Can you present your code work in a coherent reasonable and simple fashion in order to convince an average ordinary Jack or Jill that ALA was Z?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   

I'm not getting defensive at all Scott,I believe in what's there and will continue to believe in it until someone points out why it can't be.
Furthermore, I do fully understand what the direct evidence implies.You are willing to rule Allen out completely and I'm not.
If you have attempted to to give your opinions on my findings I missed it.I thought enough of your opinion to give you a copy of them before I posted here. All I heard from you at that time was that it was an interesting read,you didn't really understand code work and the only problem was to account for the name "Lee". Other than that you had begun to have doubts about Allen and would need to re-read it a few more time to do it justice, given the time I put in.That's the last I heard until recently.
All you have added to that was that you didn't think Allen was clever enough and also implied it couldn't be right because Allen couldn't be the Zodiac.
If that's your argument, then you are correct, I don't agree with your conclusions!
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:37 pm:   

It's already posted on the board Popcorn. Comrade V or X has nothing to do with it.
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sabre fan (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   

scott,
just because some person voices their opinion its automatically wrong?your the one who is getting defensive because what... seans theory doesnt match yours?gimme a break.this whole board,case and every person in here is all based on opinions.sean thankyou for posting your thoughts...
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   

John... You had wanted to know if there were specific examples of the various items I had listed which correspond to Ted Kaczynski. Each can be elaborated on in detail and have probably been discussed on the message board on many occasions by Doug. I’ll address Ted’s build since Dave seems to think that TK's description is way out of the ballpark. I tend to disagree. Although Ted was a mere 143 lbs when he was taken into custody as the Unabomber, he more than likely weighed somewhat more than that when he was living a healthier lifestyle as a professor at Berkley (maybe 150-155, maybe even a little more). Given that and the fact that witnesses described a heavier looking person (maybe as heavy as 200 lbs +, with protruding belly and/or puffed up jacket), it would be fairly easy to disguise your weight by adding garments, etc. to make you look larger. Zodiac even indicated in one of his correspondences that he looked like the description only when doing his thing and other than that he looked entirely different. Ted, in his diaries, makes note of disguises he used to make himself appear different. Take a look at the 3 pages of visual comparisons made by Doug http://mysite.verizon.net/douglas.oswell/p10.html

Note that Ted has a large face and distinctive, squared off chin. The original composite of Zodiac was changed to make note of the chin being squared.

As far as height goes, Ted was 5’9” when taken into custody. I doubt that this has changed. In comparing the height to Zodiac, witnesses vary with shortest being 5’8” (2nd Mageau Descripton on 7/8/69; Stine witnesses 10/11/69). Other descriptions, of course, range from 5'10" (certainly comparable) to over 6'.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 2:04 pm:   

Sabre Fan, I don't have a theory and the things I'm saying are not based upon my opinions but the known facts. Therefore, you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Nice try though.

Sean, I've posted numerous replies to your theory, you just don't want to hear it. You are as blind to your own work as every other theorist is to theirs, maybe even moreso.
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sabre fan (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 2:21 pm:   

scott,
if there were sooo many facts to go around dont you think this case would have been solved?how do you know your facts are actually facts?how many times has mageau changed his story?how many different height descriptions,hair, facial features,suspects.....i one could go on for the rest of the day.my point is your not the only one on this board with a theory or opinion.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 2:40 pm:   

I realize that, Sabre, so why are you taking exception to me voicing my dissenting view on Allen? Show me one place above where I wasn't using facts. My point is this: Allen has been eliminated using the direct evidence. That is a fact, not a matter of opinion. The reason the case hasn't been solved isn't because there aren't enough facts or evidence, but rather because no suspect has ever been a match with the known evidence. There's plenty of facts and evidence to convict someone if the genuine perpetrator of the Zodiac crimes were to be apprehended.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   

Scott,
You haven't said a thing with regard to my theory that I haven't already covered in the above post. It comprises of nothing more than "it can't be correct because Allen can't be the Zodiac".
I posted the theory because I wanted to hear opinions, not because I didn't want to listen.I have spoken to many as many people as I could, including S.F.P.D (the majority were impressed with it)and have posted here in an attempt to get the opinions of crypto experts.
There isn't a question I've dodged and still there's no one apparently, willing to tackle this in detail apart for making general statements.
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:19 pm:   

Sean, ALA was eliminated as z suspect?

What part of it do you not understand?

Why do you think capricious analysis of Zodiac codes and letters can lead to discoveries of ALA being Z?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   

Who eliminated him Popcorn?
When you answer that you'll have the answer to your second question.
I think your last question demonstrates that it is you who does not understand.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

Linda,
Thank you for the clarification on point 12 from your first post. It does seem that the composites do match Ted Kaczynski. In particular the ‘updated’ composite vs. the lower left photograph. What thread did you reference in regards to Doug? Sorry for my ignorance, the only things I inherently knew from birth was how to cry and fill my diaper. The rest I’ve needed help with.
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:55 pm:   

Sean, this Z case has left a lot of folks' lives in complete shamble.

Some of them had become paranoid and delusional. Some have lost more than stocks and bonds.

I just posted a link for you where Sherwood Morrill had authoratively ruled out ALA's handwritings as those sent by Z.

Of course, you like to think otherwise because you think you are seeing things in Zodiac's letters and codes pointing to ALA but yet you can not produce such result consistently from letter to letter and from code to code.

That is you, sean! Not me.

When I am convinced I am wrong, I quickly correct myself and I try to move on. No sense in getting bogged down in a case where there are many uncharted waters left to fish.

I just do not like to see some gold diggers to pop up and try to muddy a fish hole, which can produce for years to come.

PS: Also do not act like no one is reading posts fron members like scott b, etc., etc.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   

Vallejo Dave,

The reason I have not addressed Bruce Davis is because the information I have on him would bounce around like a BB in a boxcar.

I’m hoping someone will produce a LINDA-esque list of parameters about this individual. Honestly, my fingers are crossed for such an occurrence.

As far as my association with Tom Hanson, no relation what so ever.

I’ve noticed you have not asked Pop Corn if he is related to Jimmy Crack……why?....Don’t you care?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   

Scott, since when do eyewitnesses "rule out" suspects? They don't. Ever. If the police feel an individual is a good candidate, they'll keep investigating him regardless of what witnesses say. Why? Because witnesses are often highly inaccurate. Here are just four examples:

1) BTK composite sketches looked nothing like Dennis Rader

2) Son of Sam composite sketches looked nothing like David Berkowitz

3) Night Stalker composite sketches looked nothing like Richard Ramirez

4) Green River composite sketches looked nothing like Gary Ridgway

So...why on Earth would you believe that the Zodiac composite is somehow accurate, especially considering the teen witnesses were 50-60 feet away at night and under duress? Not only that, the encounter didn't last very long, they didn't always have a look at his face and the sketch wasn't even made for two days. Meanwhile, the other witness, Officer Fouke, caught only a partial look at Zodiac while racing by him to get to Cherry Street.

To believe the Zodiac composite sketch truly resembles the killer is absurd, illogical, and smacks of your singleminded, anti-Allen approach. By the way, I've been to that scene at least 50 times at night and you can't see close detail from that distance. Period. But you already know that, because you've been there, too.

Scott, think of someone you briefly saw from 50 feet away at night 48 hours ago. Now go get a sketch artist and I'd bet you my life's savings what you two come up with won't look much like the person at all. But since I'm just being logical, so feel free to disregard.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 7:41 pm:   

I guess I have to question why these composite sketches were even released to the public if so little detail could be discerned. Tom may well be right but if the sketch can't rule out folks like Allen or Kaczynski, well... it's probably not worth the posterboard it's printed on.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 7:49 pm:   

1) SFPD produced the sketch

2) SFPD pursued suspects who didn't look like the sketch

3) Z must resemble the sketch?

4) LOL!

The sketch is nothing but a guide of sorts. Z was a white male adult with short hair and glasses. That's all! If SFPD thought the sketch looked just like the killer, they wouldn't have pursued Allen, among other suspects.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 9:38 pm:   

So, I guess there is NO interest in Rigel.
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 10:05 pm:   

With a little help from three teen witnesses, SFPD caused a police sketch artist to produce the first Zodiac wanted poster on 10-13-69 (http://www.zodiackiller.com/Composite1.html).

Five days later, on 10-18-69, with further help from three teen witnesses, SFPD caused the same police sketch artist to produce the second Zodiac wanted poster (http://www.zodiackiller.com/Composite2.html).

As one can see, within five days, the police sketch artist was able to produce two different wanted posters from the descriptions given to him by three teen witnesses.

Had SFPD allowed each teen to give descriptions of a suspect who was seen that night, it would be very possible that SFPD would end up with a total of six Zodiac wanted posters.

In my opinion, anyone who wishes to put so much credibility on the accounts of three teen witnesses is just heading for a rude awakening.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 12:45 am:   

Your claim Popcorn was, and I quote "ALA was eliminated as a Z suspect".
The question still stands, who eliminated him?

Sherwood Morrill ruled out Allen as the author of the letters.Do you not understand the difference?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 10:46 am:   

Continued here.

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