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Zodiackiller.com Message Board » Other Zodiac Suspects » General Suspect Discussion » Allen vs Kaczynski vs Bruce Davis, Part 3 « Previous Next »

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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 10:51 am:   

Continued from here.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 10:55 am:   

Viewed as a single event in a vacuum, the fingerprint offers the following inferred data.

Since it was ďbloodyĒ it was deposited some time AFTER the gunshot and BEFORE the police secured the crime scene. (Unknown to me: total time lapse between those events)

Is there knowledge of the witnesses being fingerprinted along with any bystanders and residents within a reasonable distance of this event? I simply do not know.

If this ruckus occurred near my home I could easily imagine walking to the vehicle and checking the condition of the occupant. Realizing the extreme circumstance and returning to call an ambulance. Before making the call, police arrive and I simply let them do their jobs. As I have no information to offer about the crime and genuinely believe did nothing to disturb the crime scene.

I offer this scenario as a reason to use the fingerprint as inclusive information rather than exclusive, again assuming this in a vacuum.

Have Bruce Davis and Ted Kazcynski had their fingerprints compared to the print left on the cab and what were the results?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 1:37 pm:   

Tom,
While I'm not sure of the date, didn't they later subject Allen to a polygraph test. This was despite the prints not matching.If he felt for any reason that the interest was still there, it could well have been just a case of making sure.

Of course just when Z began writing again in 74 the letters stopped abruptly for the second time in this case,when Allen was arrested.
It's absolutely amazing (if Allen wasn't Z) how independant aspects of the circumstantial evidence stacked up against him, especially stuff he would have no control over.

John,
Tk was a non-match, we don't know about Davis, but I assume his prints were on file/and he was considered a suspect at one stage (so I assume the print comparison must have happened) and if there was a match,I certainly wouldn't buy a cover up in that instance.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   

Sean, I agree about the curious timing of the letters with regard to when they would stop. However, the lie-detector test you mentioned came when Leigh was already an inmate at Atascadero, a couple of years after the Exorcist letter.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:14 pm:   

As far as the fingerprints go, it's my understanding that the fingerprints weren't in blood, but latents only contained traces of blood.

I had also E-Mailed Doug at one point to ask if he had knoweldge of any FBI records and if they had ever compared the prints. He said that when he had reviewed the FBI documents (not sure if he actually has copies or if they could be found on-line), he found that in one the SFPD told the FBI they noticed "similarities" between the cab prints and the letter prints, and in Feb. 1974, the FBI responded:

"It is not possible to determine which fingers made most of the previously reported Zodiac fingerprints. In this case, therefore, it is not possible to assemble a composite set of prints that could be classified and searched..." "Comparable areas of unidentified latent prints previously reported on items from different crime scenes, as well as latent prints on different envelopes and letters, were compared with each other, but no identifications effected."

Since these prints can not be confirmed to be from Z, ruling out any suspect on this basis just isn't reliable...
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   

Thanks Tom, I had wondered about that.I still don't know that it's an effective argument against Allen, that he would not need to follow up with the palm print.He could never be sure he was eliminated or that they had lost interest.Even if he felt they was still interest or that writing again would renew interest( especially if he was involved) one more thing doesn't hurt.

Thanks also Linda, that's something I had forgotten i.e that the fingerprints weren't in blood but rather traces were found in the latents.
It's certainly something that calls into question
Pelissetti's apparent claim that he seen "bloody fingerprints" on the cab.At least it's something to be clarified.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   

Linda wrote:

"Since these prints can not be confirmed to be from Z, ruling out any suspect on this basis just isn't reliable..."

Hi Linda. Actually, that's not what the FBI report is saying at all. What it's saying is that they don't know for sure which fingers the latents came from. Additionally, when the FBI wrote, "Comparable areas of unidentified latent prints previously reported on items from different crime scenes, as well as latent prints on different envelopes and letters, were compared with each other, but no identifications effected," they aren't saying that the prints aren't known to be Zodiac's, but rather that whoever the Zodiac is wasn't identified when they compared the prints to a particular suspect. I'll try to find the entire passage in the FBI File so that it can all be put into context.

Linda, you also wrote:

"As far as the fingerprints go, it's my understanding that the fingerprints weren't in blood, but latents only contained traces of blood."

You are absolutely correct. "Bloody fingerprints," I guess, is just the easiest way to refer to the prints found on Stine's cab. The three prints that were found were near the roof on the outside, driver's side of the cab, not on the interior. What I'm getting at is that it's not that the prints were found in a pool of blood or a section of the cab were there was blood, but rather that Zodiac, who had blood on his hands, inadvertently left prints on the cab when he reached in the driver's side window to snag the cab's keys and/or to shutoff the cab's lights. Ultimately, the point is this: SFPD has/had a great amount of faith in those prints and, along with the FBI, were using them as an exclusionary tool for over three decades.

John Hanson, with regard to your inquiry, Pelissetti and Peda were the two RO's at the Stine scene and Pelissetti was the one who first noticed the prints as he walked up to the cab. Secondly, part of the reason that SFPD had so much faith in the prints is because they did in fact exclude everyone who responded to the scene and went near the cab; this includes ambulance attendants, other officers, etc. Additionally, the teens told Pelissetti that nobody had gotten near the cab, including themselves, prior to SFPD's arrival.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   

These teens were excellent observers! Did they also witness, ambulance attendants, other officers, and local residents around the cab?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:56 pm:   

Scott, I'm pretty sure none of the possible Zodiac prints were ever found to match each other.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:00 pm:   

Scott b, Thanks for the fortified answer. Would you indulge me with a few more questions about the fingerprints?

Do you know if the bystanders and local residents were fingerprinted? Your answer had etc and I would not want to assume they were part of that. I had no idea the teenagers were fingerprinted!

In the police report, the teenagers go into great detail how the murderer acted while they were observing. Leaning over the victim to the driverís side compartment (could he then turn off the ignition and lights?).

They also reported the suspect exiting the passenger side front door, wiping with a white rag possibly a handkerchief. The suspect then went to the left side of the cab and began to wipe the exterior of the door area (assume both left doors). Iím not aware of the suspect leaning in or opening either of the left doors. It is not in the initial report. Do you have a reference for this? I have no idea.

I assumed since it was October in San Francisco most people would travel with their windows in the up position. Additionally, from the black and white photo with the victim hanging out of the door: it appears the front passenger window is in the up position. I gather this since the contrast of the van in the background is more brilliant than through the passenger window.

Since I canít see the driverís window and can find nothing in the report posted here, could you reference any clarifying data for me? Many Thanks.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   

Cab

Those look like prints to me.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   

Cab2

Here's the driver's side of the cab.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   

Thanks for the image Tom.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:43 pm:   

Excellent pics, Tom. Those prints don't appear to be near the driver's side roof!
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 8:21 pm:   

Tom, according to the SFPD police reports the picture you provided is not of the prints with traces of blood. Here's an exact quote from an SFPD intra-departmental memorandum dated October 19, 1969: "All of the latent prints in our case were obtained from a taxi cab. The latent prints that show traces of blood are believed to be prints of the suspect. The latent prints from the right front door handle are also believed to be prints of the suspect. These prints are circled with a red pen. The other latent prints many of which are very good prints, may or may not be prints of the suspect in this case."

Accompanied with this memorandum are several pages depicting all of the prints lifted from the cab. So, it's obvious that we are talking about numerous prints here, not just three that show traces of blood. I've limited myself to those three prints because they obviously had to have been placed there after Stine was dead, which makes them even more likely that they were Zodiac's, especially since Pelissetti was the first on the scene and saw them on his approach to the cab. All of the other prints wouldn't have been visible to him until after the entire cab had been dusted for prints, which is what the picture you posted depicts. Anyway, in the photographs that accompany the memorandum, SFPD Crime Lab indicates that the prints with traces of blood were found on the post that separates the front and rear doors on the driver's side of the cab near the top of the post. I have a picture of it but I'm not sure how to post it here. I'm sure that you must have this picture as well, so perhaps you could post it for me. It's essentially the same picture you posted above but from a wider angle. Interestingly enough, it also shows that Paul Stine's window was, in fact, and for whatever reason, open.

John, you are asking all of the right questions. According to Pelissetti and the teens, the teens came out of the house for the first time just as Pelissetti and Peda arrived at the scene. Remember, Zodiac took his time at this murder site, which is how they were able to watch him for a couple of minutes and not just fleeting seconds. They never exited the house until Zodiac had walked some distance away; he was probably 3/4 of a block up Cherry St. before the teens dared to venture outside. When they finally did, several minutes had elapsed and Pelissetti and Peda had managed to arrive before the teens had ever exited the house. The teens were excited because they wanted to tell the cops that the killer was only a block or so away, but Pelisetti approached the cab and confirmed that Stine had been killed while Peda secured it before he got the full story from the teens. So, the crime scene was clean, nobody had gathered around the cab; Presidio Heights is a posh neighborhood that doesn't see a ton of traffic and Pelissetti saw the prints 'with traces of blood' before he ever even saw Stine's body, which was still slumped over into the passenger's side of the car seat. I understand that it's a lot to absorb, but when you check out the timelines it makes perfect sense. It's not like it took the RO's 10 - 15 minutes to arrive on the scene and in the meantime tons of people had come and gone or gathered around the cab. Instead, they were there within a few minutes, as was Fouke and Zelms, and the crime scene was 'perfectly preserved', which is what Pelissetti wrote in his report. If you reread that intra-departmental memorandum that I quoted above, it's obvious that SFPD feels that they had Zodiac's prints, and if you examine the statements of the eyewitnesses and that of the police officers who were there, it's pretty obvious why: They were fortunate enough to have a preserved crime scene to work from.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:33 pm:   

Thanks once again, Scott b for the expanded answer. I should have conveyed my appreciation for the extremely small time window we are considering. As a test, I took a slow stroll down my street for 60 seconds (one way). I arrived four door fronts from my own in every direction (repeated 3 times). I came to the conclusion, what a vast amount of time two minutes actually is and consider it to be quite significant. So I appreciate the limited window of time by which we speak.

With this in mind and my lack of ability to articulate a concept via this medium, would you do me this service and answer the three following questions with yes, no or I donít know? After answering those questions, I would be delighted to see and encourage any supplementary information you may have. I know this may seem like the third degree approach, but it is not my intention. I am using this information to construct a logic tree and (yes, no, unconfirmed) is the only data sets which are allowed.

1. Were there fingerprints taken from bystanders or residents in a reasonable distance (4 door fronts) of this event?

2. While the murderer was leaning over the body could he turn off the ignition and/or lights?

3. Via report or documented witness, did the murderer lean into the window or open the door of the left side of the cab?
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   

Sean thanks for the info on Ted Kaczynski's prints. Would you have a reference for that information? Many thanks
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   

Linda- Is there some more information about a bloody print versus one with traces of blood?

If nothing else, it might help contain the growth of future Zodiac 'lore' in which I have apparently participated.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 3:25 am:   

Tom,
With regard to the first picture shown I thought we previously determined that that shot is of the rear passenger door on the drivers side.

Scott,
Didn't Mike Rodelli claim that one of the teens actually observed Z walk north on Cherry until he turned east on jackson?

Given that police believe the prints on the drivers side and prints on the passenger door were Z's,(and that they don't match each other) it would be valuable to know which hand Z held this cloth in.
I have seen no record anywhere of Z leaning in the drivers window or opening the door. The only statement we have from the teens is that they observed him wiping the area around the drivers mirror.
Fact is,we have very little by way of details from the teen witnesses.
Also, it's not just a case of how long they observed this guy, but what view of him they had.
I can only imagine that any full frontal view could only have come from the time it took him to walk around the cab.But we would need to have that confirmed.

John,
With regard to kazcynski, Doug has confirmed many times that the prints didn't match.It's there somewhere.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:05 am:   

Can anyone answer this question:-
If what we are speaking of here are traces of blood found in latents,(as opposed to bloody fingerprints) how can we be sure/how do we know it wasn't blood transfer onto existing prints?
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:31 am:   

Blood would be "under" the bloody fingerprints. blood transfer would be on top of the existing prints.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 4:43 am:   

Yes, and how would that be determined? The area would be dusted/whatever and tape applied to "lift" the prints.How do we know that traces of blood found in latents equals "bloody fingerprints"?
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:07 am:   

turn the tape over from the lift.if the first layer is blood, you have bloody fingerprints. if the first layer is the actual fingerprint and your top layer is blood, then you have an existing print prior to any bloodshed.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:20 am:   

Sorry, my fault perhaps,I understand all that.It's not a question of how one could determine which we had but rather how we know(at this point) that traces of blood found in latents equals "bloody frigerprints" in the classic sense.In other words has it actually been determined that S.F.P.D has fingerprints that were left in blood.
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:37 am:   

kind of thought you were leaning to this, i wasn't sure. I don't know. I do know that if the p.d.'s involved in this case were to tell you it's Christmas, don't hang up your stocking.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:45 am:   

Zodiac sure did reel in some using his bait of choice-fake clews. I'm sure those who wonder why Jethro Tull's Ian Anderson stands on one leg when playing the flute also wonder about that composite. Webmaster Tom once said on TV (that stands for television for all you vegans) that Z should have stood out like a sore thumb. I agree. So my question to anyone who thinks that that composite is actually what Z looked like is this- Don't you think if he actually looked like that he would have been turned in and apprehended by LE by now?
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 9:50 am:   

Transferring this post from the Zodiac/Manson Connection book thread in the hopes that someone can give an explanation:

*************************************************
"OK... Am I missing something here? Bruce Davis was picked up on the evening of 10/12/69 after returning from LAS VEGAS and incarcerated until 10/27/69. If Davis was Zodiac, how the heck did he manage to mail the Stine letter from San Francisco, which was postmarked the day after(10/13/69) he was arrested??? Even if he had just arrived, he would have had to have killed Stine in San Francisco late on 10/10, driven to Las Vegas and then to Death Valley just in time to be picked up by police on 10/12. It appears to me that this arrest would be an extremely strong alibi for Davis NOT being in San Francisco on a date that a confirmed Zodiac letter was mailed and making it highly unlikely that he was in San Francisco on the day Stine was murdered. What am I missing here?

I suppose you could make a case that an associate or fellow Manson family member helped to mail letters but I'm curious about Howard & Jim's take on this. Sorry, gotta wait for my book to be delivered...

I do wonder about the possibility that LE may have SUSPECTED Manson family involvement in the Z murders and decided to raid the Barker Ranch after Stine's murder, basing the raid on existing charges."

*************************************************
Perhaps this issue has been discussed elsewhere or by Howard in his book but, if the dates are correct, it seems to effectively eliminate the possibility of Bruce Davis acting alone as Zodiac.

Even if others were involved, Bruce Davis would have presumably been fingerprinted right after the Stine murder. If there was any suspicion of him being Zodiac, the prints from the Stine scene would surely have been compared while he was in custody. If Davis was Z and had help either writing or mailing the letters, he would have had to kill Paul Stine then hand off the bloody shirt for someone else to include in the 10/13/69 letter before making his way to Las Vegas and eventually Death Valley- all in less than 48 hours!

What am I missing?
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 10:02 am:   

My bad... Stine, of course, was killed around 10 p.m. on 10/11/69 and was arrested the next day. He would, therefore, have had to do all of the things mentioned above in less than 24 hours.

Can anyone tell me if the raid on the Barker Ranch had anything to do with suspicion of involvement in the Zodiac murders? The timing certainly seems to indicate that it may have, whether this was ever acknowledged or not. I could certainly see LE picking up Manson family members on ANY real or imaginary charges in order to rule them out as Z.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   

The letter was actually posted on the 13th Deoxys and Davis wasn't released until the 27th. It's always been Howard's assertion that they were a few involved. That has to be the case as the Exorcist letter was written and posted while he was in prison also.
There is no indication that the raid on the ranch had anything to do with Z, I think it was mainly grand theft auto,and a string of similar things.
Howard would need to clarify but I think it was at this time that items were allegedly recovered from Davis's car linking him to Z
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   

Thanks for the clarification, Sean. So presumably Bruce Davis would have either needed to have pre-written the 10/13/69 Stine letter or someone else wrote the letter. If it was pre-written, he would have had to anticipate that he would have a piece of Stine's shirt to send and where he planned to kill Stine. The mention of his escape into the park and mention of cops "holding road races with their motorcicles" seems to make this scenario unlikely. Since the writing in the Stine letter appears consistent with other Z letters, we must be talking about a single conspirator doing the writing, correct? If Davis was NOT the letter writer, he would have had to have given this writer the piece of shirt, then made his way to Las Vegas and eventually to Barker Ranch in less than 24 hours.

Personally, I've never ruled out the possibility of multiple Z conspirators but it certainly makes it more difficult to rule out any particular individual. I'm curious to read how Howard explain this scenario.

Does anyone else think it is possible that LE decided to act on existing suspicions about Manson family members after Stine was killed 10/11/69?
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Pop Corn (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   

Sean, let's see.

Manson, Davis, and Grogan were convicted for their involvement for Donalad (Shorty) Shea's murder.

Initially they all denied anything to do with Shorty's disappearance untill snitches began to tell tall tales about how Shorty was stabbed and shot so many times and his body was cut up into 9 pieces.

Then finally around mid 80's, Grogan drew a map up for the police leading them to the exact spot where Shorty's skelton was found in one piece buried in the dry bed of a shallow creek behind the Sphan ranch.

As a result, Grogan was the only Manson family member who was set free for pinponting where Shorty was buried.

Is it not fair to deduce that the person who buried Shorty was the person who killed him?

Bruce Davis was the operating force behind the Manson Family. He was in a league all by himself. Manson was only used as a front to make things move smoothly. However, Bugliosi rated him as no. 2 man in the family as its financial wizard.

I could never buy Bugliosi's claims that Davis had anything to do with Hinman's and Shea's murders. But that is just me.

I also have my own theory based upon circumstancial evidence that Bruce Davis did kill a family member and then the Zodiac sent a cryptic correspondence admitting responsibility for that murder.

So, the bottom line is this, Bruce Davis put himself in the hole he is now.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   

Another scenario would be that he wrote the letter shortly after the Stine murder and given it to someone to post, but then you would have to believe that he wrote the Exorcist letter from prison and smuggled it out.Either way you look at it, if Davis was involved in this case,he would have to have help.The first murder is also potentially problematic with conflicting reports regarding Davis's whereabouts. LE for example believed he might be in England. We know he was and returned in April I think, but his departure date isn't nailed down.LE believed he might have been responsible for a murder in London on Dec 1st.If he was, he wasn't responsible for the Dec 20th murders (Z's first)
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 2:53 pm:   

John Hanson, good questions. I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge.

1. Were there fingerprints taken from bystanders or residents in a reasonable distance (4 door fronts) of this event? Answer: Unknown.

However, the teens told Pelissetti and Peda that nobody had gone near the car, and they themselves exited their house as Pelissetti and Peda arrived.

2. While the murderer was leaning over the body could he turn off the ignition and/or lights? Answer: Unknown.

Of course, it seems like the answer should be 'yes' but in actuality it's 'unknown' (at least for me) because I have no idea where the light switch for the headlights was located in that particular car. I would imagine that it would be very possible to have shut-off the ignition, however. I tried it in my car a few minutes ago with my wife playing the part of Stine and me playing the part of Zodiac. For the life of me, I couldn't reach the switch to the headlights of my car, but I was able to turn off the ignition.

3. Via report or documented witness, did the murderer lean into the window or open the door of the left side of the cab? Answer: Unknown.

I'm not sure if this came from the witnesses or if this scenario was developed by SFPD to explain the location of the prints that had traces of blood. However, Pelissetti said in a recent conversation that this is what happened, though I'm not sure where the information came from.

I hope all of that helps. Keep up the good work!

Sean asked:

"Didn't Mike Rodelli claim that one of the teens actually observed Z walk north on Cherry until he turned east on jackson?"

I'm not sure, Sean. I'm sure that Mike either posted it here or on his own website; have a look. By the way, we don't know if the various prints matched one another or not. I've been going through the FBI Files to see if I can find out for certain, but that thing is over 1,000 pages and is not exactly an easy read.

Deoxys: You've raised a ton of good points. Perhaps Howard will pop in here with an answer or two. Suffice it to say that what you've outlined is part of the reason why I don't believe Davis was the Zodiac.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   

Scott b, Thanks for the thorough and extremely well presented answer. In particular, the experiment with the ignition and lights! It really helps me appreciate the theoretical versus the performed aspects of this.

Was the information about the murderer leaning into the cab inferred from other documents or your own theory based upon available information? (Nothing wrong about theories as long as they are documented as such)

Do you or anyone else have any information on the possible existence of latentís being checked for on the wheel cover (if that ever existed) of Kathleen Johnsí car? This seems to be one of two places which may have contained prints.

Since you are an experimenter and I have found nothing on this simple subject, would you consider this? Obtain a tube of airplane (model) cement (glue) and an ink pad. First, print yourself using your thumb (has the largest surface area) and the ink pad.

Second, apply a single coat of glue and let it dry, then print yourself again.

Finally, apply a second coat and print yourself.

I would like to know your observations. I will not confirm or deny if I have completed the afore mentioned, however it MAY help debunk some more Zodiac lore.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:02 pm:   

Sure John, I'll give your idea a shot. I do believe that this has been done somewhere before; you might check the archived message board. One thing I would add into the mix, however, is what would happen to the glue on the fingertips once they had come into contact with blood. I'm not exactly sure how to go about that one, though; perhaps using blood from a steak or something.

"Was the information about the murderer leaning into the cab inferred from other documents or your own theory based upon available information?"

No, it's not my theory. For years it has been the theory of a Zodiac researcher who doesn't post here. His theory was confirmed by Pelissetti in a conversation, but I don't know if Pelissetti got the info from the witnesses or if it was the opinion of SFPD. Unfortunately, the first two detectives in San Francisco to tackle the case were Toschi and Armstrong and neither seemed to document much of the information they obtained. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but Pelissetti rose through the SFPD ranks and eventually handled the Zodiac case as a detective. For what it is worth, I'm 99% positive that the Fincher film is going to depict Zodiac leaning into Stine's opened window to turnoff the headlights. Now, granted, this is only a movie, but the filmmakers went out of their way to obtain as many reports as possible and consulted many people who were involved in the case.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   

How do we reconcile what appears to be two conflicting comments here with regard to the prints?

Pelissetti claims he saw bloody prints on the cab and the reports say blood traces were found in the latents.
If Pelissetti saw bloody prints, then we must have prints left in blood, yes?
The reports appear to imply that these traces of blood were miniscule and perhaps not picked up until an examination was done!
It is pretty important.

Scott, again vitally important is the piece of information you supplied with regard to Zodiac leaning in a window/opening the door.
In my mind that gives Zodiac reason to come around to the drivers side, something I believe highly suspicious before.
But there's no record, all we have is the teens saying he exited the cab, walking around and wiping as he went. No record of his doing these things, which I expect they should/would have provided. Can you track that down?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   

IMO, Z's statement about using melted wax or glue on his fingertips is pure BS.

I'm interested in Scott's earlier comment about bloody prints on the driver's side roof.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   

De: the 10-13-1969 letter had to have been written shortly after Stine's murder, as I've explained elsewhere, and was likely dropped in the mail that very night. If it was dropped in a mailbox, it is unlikely to have been picked up until Monday 10-13, thus accounting for the apparent 2 day delay.

It is about 575 miles from Napa to Las Vegas, so it should be a similar distance from SF to LV. It's taken me about 9 hours or so to drive there, and it shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours or so to get to Barker Ranch from LV. Stine was murdered just before 10 PM on 10-11-1969, and Davis was arrested some 20 hours later in Death Valley. So yes, if he drove, it's certainly possible that he could have made it from SF to LV to Barker Ranch in time to be arrested. However, a possibility does not constitute proof that it did happen that way.

BTW, there's nothing I've ever read or heard that would suggest the raid had anything to do with Z.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   

Sean, the difference as I see it, and what I believe the reports are suggesting, is this: In one scenario you have blood on a surface and someone sticks their hand/fingers into it. The other scenario, which is what we have with the Stine prints, is that the Zodiac had blood on his fingers and then touched a surface. I don't recall seeing a place where the amount of blood is quantified, but if Pelissetti could see it with his naked eyes it's reasonable to assume that the amount should have been pretty substantial.

As to your point about the window, either the teens saw Zodiac do it or SFPD theorized that that was how the prints got where they were. Pelissetti stated that this is what Zodiac did in a conversation, but I don't know where the information originated. I realize that it is important, Sean, that's why I'm belaboring the point. At any rate, it can't be denied that SFPD believed these were Zodiac's prints and it's becoming more and more obvious as to why, in my opinion.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   

Vallejo dave, I think anyone who uses the glue/wax will come to the same conclusion you already have. The glue does not disguise your prints, it obliterates them. The ridge definition is less than that of a chimpanzee. Yet there remains discussion about the airplane glue theory as a viable disguise.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:06 pm:   

"I'm interested in Scott's earlier comment about bloody prints on the driver's side roof."

I've already corrected that comment, Dave. The fingerprints with traces of blood were on the post that separates the front and back doors on the driver's side of the car near the roof, not on the roof. Tell me how to post a photo from my computer and I will show you.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   

I also doubt if the raid had anything to do with Z. I can't imagine SFPD and LAPD trying to cooperate on an investigation in those times!

There was enough confusion and animosity in the Bay area, between police jurisdictions to even hint at total state cooperation on both cases.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   

Thanks for that info, Ed. Bruce Davis would certainly have had to be a busy boy to accomplish all of this in 20 hours. Here's how his to do list might have looked when planning out his day earlier on Oct. 11, 1969.

Things to do for Oct. 11-12:

1. Attend opening night of Hair (Charlie hooked me up with great seats!)

2. Hail cab

3. Kill cabbie

4. Wipe down cab

5. Leave fake clews

6. Cut piece of cabbie's shirt to send to pigs

7. Hide out in Presidio to avoid the pigs

8. Walk back to safehouse

9. Take a shower

10. Write letter to the blue meannies (reminder: include piece of shirt)

11. Mail letter to blue meannies

12. Drive to Las Vegas

13. Drive to Death Valley

14. Get arrested (great alibi!)

OK... #1,8&9 are speculative but wouldn't Davis have needed some place to clean up a bit? Driving from San Francisco to Vegas covered with blood would not have been cool since he would presumably need to stop for gas at least once.

I look forward to reading Howard's take on this subject as well.
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Jeff Andrews (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:45 pm:   

Scott B. and John Hanson, fresh human blood has solvent-like qualities, you'll see this when you do your tests. Also the warmth of the blood acts like a solvent, that's why warm water is good for cleaning up super glue and model airplane glue.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   

Deo, LOL. He could have taken a plane. Maybe he had wash n wipes!
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:00 pm:   

I've never tried it, Jeff, but that's what I was expecting. Like I said, I think someone tried it once and posted that exact result on one of the ancient message boards. Thanks for the information!

Deoxys: Don't forget to add to your 20 hours list that Bruce Davis would have had to grown longer hair and a partial beard in those 20 hours, as well. At least Allen five days to figure out how to grow a crew-cut!
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   

Correction: "At least Allen (had) five days to figure out how to grow a crew-cut!"
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:38 pm:   

Even assuming a crew cut wig, how to explain the apparent sideburns? How'd Davis hide those?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 9:06 pm:   

Sideburns--lol. I can't wait to hear comments on this.------If it were June, he could have gone to Jay Sebring's Salon near Montgomery Street, and got a trim, hair tint, and a wig!
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   

And for an extra 25 cents, he could have gotten a spit shine done on his wingtips!
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 5:44 am:   

Scott,
The teens did say that they observed Zodiac in the cab with Stine draped across his lap, he appeard to be leaning over to the drivers side an wiping that area.
I had always took it that it was then that Z (with cloth in hand) was turning off the lights and grabbing the keys (and that that's what they mistook for wiping, in that area) After all, there was no need to do so unless he was driving.
He left no fingerprints inside the cab, which shows he was pretty careful. The clear impresion thereafter is that he exited the cab (wiping as he went)In other words using this cloth on the door handles etc.
Again as I've said earlier, there was no mention of him leaning in a window or opening the door.
While it's a theory as to why he may have left fingerprints where he did (and a good one)if the teens didn't see it, it didn't happen.
But this is the point I've been making all along, we have little information from them other than two of them went downstairs and observed this guy.
These are the people who could confirm whether Z did the things you suggest or not. They could also comment on whether the lights we still on or not when Z exited the cab and a hell of a lot more besides.
What we have now is partial third hand information and we are expected to draw firm conclusions based on that.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 5:54 am:   

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that Z is an unknown and that he looked similar to the composite and "Fouked" up by leaving prints.
How many sections of the population would have been excluded with a non-match?

1.He had no prior's before or since(it that likely given this type of individual, his interest in firearms etc.)
2.He didn't work for the military or navy
3.He didn't hold a goivernment job

Anybody, what other areas is he excluded from?
Are you guys printed for driver's liscence over there?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 6:11 am:   

A government job even!

Deoxys/Ed,
Isn't it unlikely that Davis would have driven passed the Ranch on his way to Vegas?
Seems to imply that if this happened at all, he must have flown.
Again Howard would have to clarify but I believe this was supposedly the time items were recovered, the wig wasn't one of those items.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 9:18 am:   

Sean, on this side of the pond I don't think any state fingerprints for driver's licenses.
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:48 am:   

Sean In California you give your thumb print for a drivers license. Notaries and real estate agents are printed. LE is also printed. Those are the ones I know of for sure, there may be more.
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Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   

There's currently mandatory fingerprinting for anyone volunteering to work with children. I had to do it when I volunteered as a den leader & also when working with the Little League...
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armchairpi (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   

Angie, et al- this is also so for those working in schools. Not sure about janitorial staff, but certainly faculty. Not sure if this was the case in Z's time though. I taught in a *private* high school for a year in the early 90's, and not only was fingerprinted but had to be cleared by an fbi background check.
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Angie
Username: Angie

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   

Damn, I was gonna say that, PI, but I wasn't 100% sure that it was so...
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   

Jeff Andrews - If blood has the solvent like qualities this would then reveal the individuals actual print or at least several fragments.

My only conclusion was - As an effective disguise, using glue on the fingers simply does not work. He writes how the guards are quite unnoticeable and very effective.

So is wearing gloves in October in San Francisco. Why such a complex solution to such a simple problem?

As far as creating a phony print, I would have to go with Tom voigtís theory with the possible addition of cadavers and mortuaries as a source for the appendage.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 1:13 am:   

Sean, there are alternate routes he could have taken, but going to LV wouldn't have been that much out of his way, a few hours, perhaps.

Also, while everyone in the military is fingerprinted, it's not like SFPD is going to check military records to compare prints. They'd only look at criminals.
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SF Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 8:00 am:   

This is where they are making a big mistake in the fingerprint investigation...JMO
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 9:48 am:   

SF--I agree. Even if they just checked military prints from the Presidio, it might lead to a break.
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Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:38 am:   

Davo,

Precisely!!
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   

The Zodiac has been associated with contacting the following newspapers: LA Times (circulation 700k), SF Chronicle (300k), SF Examiner (200k) and the Vallejo Times Herald (20k). Several associated characterizations have labeled Zodiac as hungry for publicity.

Based on circulation alone, this would be like identifying a gourmet because they consumed filet mignon, lobster tail, Chateaubriand and hot dogs (I know the simile sucks).

As a comparison, the three candidates are listed with their associated residence, crimes and contact with the media. Iím sure there is more information on each and I invite any corrections or additions.


Ted Kaczynski Resided in Berkley?, CA and Lincoln, MT

Arthur Leigh Allen Resided in Santa Rosa, CA and Vallejo, CA

Bruce Davis Resided in San Francisco, CA, Death Valley (Barker Ranch), CA and Simi Valley (Spahn Ranch), CA


Ted Kaczynski Committed crimes in Washington DC, Salt Lake City, UT, Nashville, TN, Berkley, CA, Auburn, WA, Ann Arbor, MI, Sacramento, CA, San Francisco, CA and New Haven, CT.

Arthur Leigh Allen Committed crimes in Santa Rosa, CA and Vallejo, CA (dismissed)

Bruce Davis Committed crimes in Chatsworth, CA, Spahn Ranch, CA and Inyo County, CA (dismissed)



Ted Kaczynski contact with the media NY Times (1.1M), Washington Post (700k) and of course Penthouse (300k).

Arthur Leigh Allen contact with the media NONE

Bruce Davis contact with the media NONE
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 4:42 pm:   

Don't forget the San Francisco Examiner and the San Francisco Chronicle.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

In 1991 Allen made an appeal through the media to get Melvin Belli to represent him. Ted and Bruce did not.

By the way, please explain again how you know Allen didn't write letters to newspapers? Thanks in advance.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 4:55 pm:   

Oh yes, and Allen wrote to reporter Rita Williams of KTVU after her station aired a Zodiac story. The envelope had a big Z on the front.

And before you spout that tired "Allen was simply copying the Zodiac" routine, keep in mind that Ted could have been, too.
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John Hanson (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   

Tom voigt- I was trying to keep the timeline to the Zodiac attacks or convictions as with Ted Kaczynski. I had no idea Allen wrote or contacted reporters during that time frame. I have NO idea if any of the three didn't contact the media. I had no intention of spuoting Allen was trying to copy anything.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   

Ummm...why are you making statements of fact when you have no idea if they're true?
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   

If it was dependant upon where I commit the crime then why not include a Napa/Sonoma publication?

Nice try. I still want explained away the great difficulty one unlikely to be familiar with those long, twisting roads (and in 1969 when even worse than now) all the way to and especially from Lake Berryessa, to Napa for the phone call, would have in navigating them. Especially through pure blackness from LB to Napa.

I don't refer to map-reading ability although it's worth noting that maps don't include lovers' lanes. I refer to the vicissitudes of the surfaces of rural roads; that is, small, sharp curves, sudden rises and falls, and especially at night. One wrong move on some of those surfaces means a major car crash.

Of the three suspects in this thread's title, which is most or least likely to have the understanding of these roads which the Zodiac obviously had? This applies primarily to LB but also to Vallejo to a lesser extent.

Sorry for such banal, obvious questions. I realize that motive is so much more important than opportunity.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   

Zodiac to the San Francisco Examiner in his first correspondences with the media: "I am the killer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass at Lake Herman & the girl last 4th of July. To prove this I shall state some facts which only I & the police know."

Kaczynski to the San Francisco Examiner in his first correspondence as Unabomber to the media, immediately following his first successful kill: "To prove that we are the ones who planted the bomb at U. Of Cal. last May we will mention a few details that could be known only to us and the FBI who investigated the incident."

Zodiac to the San Francisco Chronicle in 1969, once his credibility as a killer had been established: "School children make nice targets, I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning. Just shoot out the front tire & then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out."

Kaczynski to the San Francisco Chronicle in 1995, once his credibility as a killer had been established: "WARNING. The terrorist group FC, called unabomber by the FBI, is planning to blow up an airliner out of Los Angeles International Airport some time during the next six days."

I don't know for a fact that neither Allen nor Davis wrote letters of this nature to the newspapers in question. But I think it can be safely assumed that if they had, we'd know about it by now.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   

Let's continue this here.

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