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Zodiackiller.com Message Board » Other Zodiac Suspects » General Suspect Discussion » Allen vs Kaczynski vs Bruce Davis, Part 4 « Previous Next »

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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   

Continued from here.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:05 pm:   

Tom - You had asked if Ted was known to write letters to newspapers before he became the Unabomber...

From the Turchie Affidavit in the Unabomber case, see Items 121 & 139
http://home1.gte.net/douglas.oswell/turchie.html#4 J

121. On March 24, 1996, Wanda Kaczynski, Theodore's mother, provided a letter authored by Theodore dated December 14, 1969, and addressed to the editor of the Chicago Daily News. Paragraph 2 of the letter began, "The stricter gun control laws recommended by the U.S. Commission on Violence are a case in point."
139. Wanda Kaczynski provided the UTF with copies of letters Theodore Kaczynski wrote in 1969 and 1970 to editors of Chicago newspapers and various magazine concerning technology and liberty. Wanda also provided a copy of an undated letter from Theodore Kaczynski that said "no one could want better parents."

One parallel that might be considered interesting from this reference would be how Ted was making comments on gun control in December of 1969 when in just the month before, in his November 9, 1969 letter to the San Francisco Chronicle, Zodiac refers to his killing tools being bought through “…mail order outfits before the ban went into ef[f]ect…” - certainly this appears to be reference to gun control.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter2.html
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:07 pm:   

Thanks Linda.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:06 am:   

Ed, you wrote, " there are alternative routes he could have taken" (Bruce Davis alleged drive to L.V after the Stine murder).

I suppose so,yes.However it is been offered as an attempted alibi of sorts,placing Davis far away from S.F.
Either way you look at it, it's six hours extra driving to pass the Ranch and then return later.
If it was aimed at providing an alibi you would imagine we would have concrete information placing him there by some reliable independent witness.
Alternatively, we have him leaving S.F (I don't know..midnight perhaps), driving 9 hours to L.V, staying a couple of hours and then driving to the Ranch. I don't suppose an alibi would hold up unless he had someone who could swear he was there overnight( and therefore lie for him).
While, at the ranch, he would have a couple of dozen who would probably swear he was there.
In that context, it's hard to see him passing the ranch in the first place.

On the fingerprint issue, yeah, I appreciate only criminals would be checked. However, official or not, I wouldn't be surprised if checks of military instalations were carried out, especially given the Presidio incident and LE beliefs that Z may have been connected to the military. But yes, a moot point.
I still think it unlikely that Z didn't have some previous arrest history, but of couse, he may not have had.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 12:34 pm:   

Sean,
It was 'supposed' BD had been in LV then drove to DV and was arrested 10/12/69 in the PM.

CM was 'supposed' to have been in ANOTHER city or LA to get 'supplies'(something that was always left to others!),yet he not only happens to arrive at the exact SAME time as BD,but has NO supplies,just that infamous "hit list" and some magazines!

One writer calls CM's trip a 'mystery' and that it had to have been 'very important' to have left when he did and is 'puzzling' he would have left his group at such a 'perilious time.'
CM left around the 10th and came back on he 12th PM.

Also,one need not suppose that BD drove to LV-if he even actually went there.There were flights on a regular basis from SF to LV AM/PM every day.
I have read the flight ads in papers from the Bay Area during the '69-70 period.It takes about an hour or more to fly from SF to LV.Even if it took two or three hours -no biggie!

Members drove to LV often and someone could have gotten BD a car to drive to the ranch.BD was a car thief and a"good"mechanic and could 'hotwire a car very fast.'I know he stole a car in Long Beach in '69 for example.
So obtaining a car quickly or transportation was never a problem for BD!

BD flew to Europe-GB at least three times with the earliest being in '63.So flying that short distance or to LV from SF would no problem!FYI
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   

That was my point Howard (earlier post)..if Bruce Davis did go to L.V, then he could have flown there or at least, it would appear to be the more logical explanation in the circumstances.

But then why go to Las Vegas unless he could be provided with an alibi?
He was observed approaching from that side, so where else could he have been?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   

According to Helter Skelter (p. 169), CHP, Inyo County Sheriff's Office and National Park rangers gathered in Death Valley on the night of 10-9-1969 to raid Barker and Myers Ranch the morning of the 10th, starting at 4 AM. On p. 171, we're told there was a second raid the evening of the 12th, 2˝ days later, and that's when Manson and Davis were arrested. How do we know for certain that Manson & Davis didn't arrive later on the 10th or sometime on the 11th? Since Manson forbade calendars or timepieces at Spahn Ranch (pp. 145, 655) and presumably at Barker Ranch as well, how would anyone have known the actual date they returned? I imagine they could have figured it out later, however...
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   

I assume the cops would have know Ed, even if the residents of the Ranch didn't!
Apologies, am I missing something?
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   

Ed,
From the officers that secretly WATCHED the ranch daily to those that were there it is known that neither CM or BD were there UNTIL the evening of the 12th.
I knew LT Howard Hurlbut of the CHP who led a contingent of officers in to the bust and was there and he told me that those 'two men were NOT present' from around the 8th till the 12th as given.
Even a ranger knew from all that was going on they were not there!

Diane Lake who was with the Family since 1967 and was there and is now a very successful professional has told us the same thing,'Charlie and Bruce were gone until the bust on the 12th.'

Davis was supposed to have been in LV and CM in LA.,but they were not at that residence until the 12th and were arrested at around 6:30 PM.

Also,remember these guys,as Jim Nelson says, had no job and lots of free time on their hands and were used to travelling everywhere at any time.
I have carefully resarched all of this since 1987 and pretty well know the case.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:02 pm:   

Howard,

I asked this question earlier in the thread somewhere but do you think it is possible that LE may have organized the 10/12/69 raid on the Barker ranch because of suspicions of Manson family involvement in the Z murders?

Ed's finding above that the ranch was actually raided two days prior is interesting. From what you have said, the ranch was already under regular surveillance and LE could have acted any time if they had a warrant to serve. Do you think they were just waiting for Manson & Davis to show up or is it possible that Paul Stine's murder influenced the decision to raid the ranch a second time in two days. It is not uncommon for LE to arrest suspects on one charge with the hopes of gaining evidence for a much more serious charge.

What do you think?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   

According to Helter Skelter, p. 171:

Also found were more sleeping bags than people, indicating that there might be others still in the area.

The officers decided to take the prisoners into Independence and book them, then make a surprise raid at a later date, in case the others returned.

The strategy paid off. The second raid occurred on October 12, two days after the first. CHP officer Pursell and two Park rangers arrived in the area before their support and were hiding in the brush, waiting for the others, when they saw four males walk up one of the washes to the ranch house and enter. Pursell spotted sheriff's deputy Don Ward of the backup unit approaching in the distance. It was already after 6 P.M., the dusk rapidly becoming dark. Not wanting to risk a gunfight at night, Pursell decided to act.


Bugliosi indicates here that neither Barker nor Myers ranch was watched for the 2˝ days between the raids. Hurlbut isn't mentioned in the text nor is he listed in the index. Was Hurlbut truly there, or did he revise history and place himself in a minor raid that turned out to be an important part of California crime history just to make a name for himself?
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   

Thanks for that info., Ed. My point is that LE doesn't always publicly announce the true reasons for a raid like this to be executed. In all likelihood, LE could have served the warrant against Bruce Davis at just about any time but chose to serve it just as he was returning to the Barker Ranch the day after Paul Stine's murder.

It may well be pure Zynchronicity, but I would not be surprised at all if LE was investigating Manson family involvement in the Zodiac murders and decided to pick up Davis 10/12 BECAUSE of Paul Stine's murder. If the ranch was NOT under surveillance for the 2 1/2 days between raids, it would seem to add to the suspicion that they returned there 10/12 for a specific reason.

I don't think this idea (right or wrong) adds or detracts from Bruce Davis as a Z suspect but it interests me to know whether Davis was a suspect in the eyes of LE.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   

It may well be pure Zynchronicity, but I would not be surprised at all if LE was investigating Manson family involvement in the Zodiac murders and decided to pick up Davis 10/12 BECAUSE of Paul Stine's murder.

But no one knew it was a Zodiac murder until October 13.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   

SFPD knew it was a Zodiac murder on 10-11-69!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   

No, Dave, Z's involvement in the Stine murder was completely and totally unknown until the Chronicle received his letter on 10-14-1969. That's 2 days after Davis and Manson were arrested.

De, why would LE be investigating the Manson Family in connection to the Z murders in October 1969 anyway? Manson was listed as a suspect in the LaBianca murders on 10-15-1969 (Helter Skelter, p. 98) and had not yet been linked to Helter Skelter, so why would anyone be looking at Davis in connection to Stine on 10-12-1969 before Z linked himself to the murder? According to Bugliosi, he was a minor player at best, so it makes no sense that anyone was at Barker Ranch looking for Z.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   

I have the CHP reports(and others) dated 11/20/69 file #F38-430-69 or "Progress Report"..."Summary of the arrests and the crimes committed in the Death Valley area of Inyo county...under the leadership of Charles Miles[Milles sic] Manson"

Just focusing on LT.Hurlbut and some info related to the arrests,
"Lieutenant Hurlbut contacted Zone lV,and Officer Dave Steuber #691 [I am quoting from Steuber's own CHP report ]established a liaison between NATB,Los Angeles,Kern County Sheriff's Office,and at a later date,Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office,Los Angeles P.D.,Santa Ana P.D.,Culver City P.D.[it is believed BD murdered a Culver City resident and 'staged it to look like a suicide,'but later evidence proved the male victim was murdred-also a vehicle was stolen],Long Beach P.D[BD stole a vehicle in Long Beach]...."

Officer Steuber went to Inyo county "on October 9 to assist in the investigation.On the tenth officers accompanied by National Park Service Rangers,a game warden...entered the area.After parking their vehicles at the summit Mengel Pass and in the Willow Springs area using CHP walkie-talkies [CM's group had walkie-talkies too]for communication,under cover of darkness,officers walked in to the Myers Ranch area,Shortly after daylight on October 10,radio contact via CHP walkie-talkie was made with Lieutenant Hurlbut and Sergeant Haily in their 4-wheel drive vehicle who were entering the area of Golar Wash....The Officers converged on the Barker Ranch[there were two ranches]..All prisoners were escorted to the ranch...and were later booked...a .22 pistol was found in this camp...total arrests:ten female;three male."

"Charles Manson(not located,not in custody)."

"On October 12.1969,Officer Pursell and the National Park Service Rangers reentered the Death Valley Mengal Pass and made contact with additional witnesses...requested assistance in attempting to arrest the ringleader,Charles Manson,who was still at large and additional male suspects that were believed to have returned to the area.Successful contact was made at the Barker Ranch and the following were taken into custody..."
Six males including CM and BD were among this group along with 5 females.

"#4Pugh[Sandra Good-many had 5-8 aliases!] was observed in the canyon area behind Myers ranch by Officer LT.Hurlbut.-Booked Inyo county."

Sanders who met a lot of the officers involved in the raids wrote that "The party [of arrresting and raiding officers]was directed by LT. Hurlbut of the California Highway Patrol."2002 ed.

Officer Steuber brings out in his report that Bruce Davis was involved in the shooting of a young man("with a bullet hole in his head").He had been shot with a .22.
This young was said to have been playing "Russian roulette,"but there was only one bullet in the weapon originally!

Charges Sheet containing the names of those arrested and the charges,etc.Davis' bail was set at 25,000 as was Mansons.
Some of the charges were, buglary,auto theft,,stolen pistols,stolen credit cards,and murder.

"LASO and LAPD"investigating and have"Homicide and Auto Theft Teams in this area to assist in follow up...Refer LT Hurlbut/Officer Steuber Bishop CHP."
A lot of CM evidence was recovered.

In the Argus a newspaper in Fremont -Newark,CA for 12/4/69 there is an interview with LT. Howard Hurlbut about the raids."Hurlbut helped round up residents of the ranch on auto theft charges..."

I have a lot more,but this will do for now.

Helter Skelter was written by Leland Gentry and he did not get every detail-it was impossible.A lot of info never found it's way into the printer's MS.Editors make cuts for several reasons ,including the amount and kind of info to be included.Costs are a big factor in this too.
You have to research ALL sources-notjust one book-inclduing police reports and those that were involved.

We even located (and were the first to do so)one of the girls that escaped from the ranch just before the first raid,The reason she and her friend left was 'because Charlie had left to go to LA.'This was their chance to leave in their view.They are mentioned in Steuber's CHP report.

Deo,
I have no information on your question,but I will say I was informed some 'personal belongings were found that belonged' to BD.

"Inyo County district attorney(he used to practice in Vallejo)Frank Fowles helped set up an informal network of district attornies from other counties,which in loose conjunction with other law-enforcemnt agencies,looked into various homicides that might possibly be related to the Manson group.There was an investigation of possible connections among and between a trio of groups-the Manson squad,an English satanist society and an international religious organization.In addition,they also looked into the question of a possible connection between Manson and he Zodiac killer."2002 ed.Sanders

I spoke to Fowles by phone (to set up an interview )about this and he told me that he had always "firmly believed" there was a 'connection between Zodiac and Manson.'

I pressed him about it and told him about my 'source' and then he would not go further,but said if I came to his office he may give me some information.When Jim and I had the interview he was very tight with giving us anything.I was quite surprised and angry.I KNEW he knew certain things,but he would not talk.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 8:57 pm:   

I'm glad we're getting to the bottom of this and straightening things out! According to Helter Skelter, p. 170, Sandra Good was arrested on the 10-10-1969 raid, not the second one on 10-12-1969. Hurlbut was therefore present for the first and not second raid, and it still seems that no one watched either ranch for 2˝ days.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   

Mr.Ed,
Sander's writes:"There had evidently been careful surveillance of the area by the police,who determined that the ranch was being used until daylight."
This was based on police interviews and ,of course, other reports.I have another report done by Officer Steuber of the CHP and signed off by Officer J.R.Haily #2122 10-15-69.

It says that there was constant observation of the ranch and surrounding areas including occupants,of the ranches,etc.:

"Suspect Robert Ivan Lane 18 yrs was OBSERVED while acting as a look out...Suspect #1 Williamson was observed in the Barker ranch house by Officer Journigan.-Booked at Inyo...Suspect #2 Powell was observed at the Barker ranch..Booked...Suspect #3Balwin was observed at the Barker ranch by Officers George and Journigan-Booked...Suspect #4 Pugh was observed in the canyon behind Myers ranch by LT.Hurlbut[he was at BOTH raids-just as he told me!].-Booked Inyo...Suspect #5 Morse was observed in the caynon behind Myers ranch by Officer O'Neil[!-did your family drop the O-always wondered why some used an O?].'Booked...Suspect Manson was observed ...Booked...three more suspects all with "observed"prefacing each arrest account.

They observed CM walking into the area having been gone from around the 8th.
Since he left the area Ms.K.Lutesinger(whom we later tracked down-it took years-she is still afraid on CM people and was in her view 'hiding') and her friend saw this as a chance to escape from CM.

She said CM constantly talked of torturing people by 'tying them up over an ant hill and putting honey on their bodies...hanging them and stripping their flesh off,'etc,etc.
Anyone who would leave their group would be subject to torture and he spoke of 'future victims' being torturted too.
I note Z wrote of tortuing his victims using very similar descriptions when compared to CM'' torure depictions.

She later gave LAPD vital info on the murders and other crimes.

This goes on and on in the Steuber/Haily report with "observed"used in each sentence.They were watching both ranchs and the surrounding areas like a hawk.

These very conservative 'desert police'were astute and worked hard day and night to catch all of the offenders.They constantly interviewed miners and other witnesses that were in the area that observed the group too.

They watched both areas and knew who was coming and going according to all the reports I have.I only quoted from a small portion.I have some packed.

One can't read a single book and get the full complete picture on a complex case!

This all started on September 19 according to a CHP"Summary" report.

They found that someone had 'attempted to burn a large Michigan Loader.'
hen on the 20th Officer Manning recovered a 1969 Ford which had been stolen by the group.

On the 22d Ranger Powell found a Toyota Land Cruser.The tracks near the Loader arson scene matched those of the Toyota.

Powell came back with Deputy Sheriff Dennis Cox on the 24th to find the people connected to the Toyota left four hours after he questioned them.

On the 29th Officer Pursell and Ranger Powell checked on Barker ranch.The 'two people there would not talk.'

On the 29th a careful search by the CHP and Rangers was done of the "entire area."Two stolen vehicles that were "camouflaged" were recovered.
They learned at this time about the 15 or so people that were living in the area under the direction of CM and that he was in possession of that red '69 Toyota that was used during the burning of the Loader.CM did this to 'punish' the Rangers,police,etc.

They all, along with reps from the DA's Office, returned to the area on October 9th in a well planned thorough sweep.The Toyota was found along with another stolen vehicle and 15 of the group were arrested.The vehicles were stored on the 10th.
The observation began around the 8/9th actually and ended on the evening of the 12th.

So they knew Davis(second in command) and Manson were NOT in the area until the evening of the 12th.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 1:26 pm:   

Howard,

Is the following quote from Ms. K. Lutesinger?:

"She said CM constantly talked of torturing people by 'tying them up over an ant hill and putting honey on their bodies...hanging them and stripping their flesh off,'etc,etc.
Anyone who would leave their group would be subject to torture and he spoke of 'future victims' being torturted too."
I note Z wrote of tortuing his victims using very similar descriptions when compared to CM'' torure depictions.

What was her relationship with Charlie and the Manson family? Did she hear these statements made at the Barker Ranch?

The ideas are compelling but I'm somewhat unclear who actually made these statements and the context that they were made.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   

Deo,
Here is a quote from Sanders who lived with the group off and on -and intervewed the CM people:
"Torture seemed to comprise the substance of most of the conversation about Manson in the final days before his capture.He became feral beyond description,mean beyond description.In the wilderness,the man of a thousand masks could slip them all off and could assume his cherished role of exterminator[note Z's reference and ID with Mikado-CM's old prison production when he was a member of the drama club- and exterminator or Ko -Ko]and CM's penchant for believing and asserting he was the 'incarnation' of various personages both real and mythical.CM spoke of his "list"of victims.

Lutesinger said,"I don't know,he[CM]was just beating on Snake[Diane Lake]all the time-or everybody...asked about threats she said..."Oh the usual stuff,like, 'We'll hang you from the trees and cut out your tongue,'or'We''ll tie you up to a tree and put honey on you and let the ants crawl all over you."
This was just one or two descriptions,but there were other angles on torture CM spoke of.Note Z's "list" and his descriptions of torture.

CM thought that 'in the afterlife' according to Atkins, that some would be "waiting" for him/them(Watkins) and some would be 'his slaves',etc.He called it "paradise" or the "pit,""afterlife,"etc.
The afterlife 'set-up' was different than Z's in that the victims CM's people killed would be HIS "slaves."

Whatever he believed and taught was Bruce Davis' beliefs also.They were, in their mind,"Just the TWO of US Writing Letters and Postcards" in the Beatles song.
More...
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   

I think Lutesinger and Charlie had a "thing" right before the final events at Barker. Check Helter Skelter, The Family, The Atkins and Watson books, and newspaper accounts.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:34 am:   

Thanks for the clarifications and great info., Howard.

I guess I've always thought of Z's mentioning of torture and the afterlife as pure fantasy, unlike Charlie & Company's bizarre belief system but who knows?

Time for me to dig up and reread my copy of Helter Skelter.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   

Deo,
Reading HS is not enough as there is a great deal of information to see the whole picture along with details,but it is a start!

Lutesinger was one of Bobby Beausoleil's girl friends.She had his child.
She gave important information to the police about the murders and other crimes.Bugliosi felt she was a very reluctant witness and did not use her at trial.

She went back and forth to CM, but as she got older she finally left the group.

She indicated CM got worse as time went on and she recounted his tales of torture for the police.Some of this occured at the Barker and Myers ranches.

CM told Tex Watson that he wanted to place people in "cages"(Z used this same word in tandem in his writings about torturing his slaves or victims-I quoted from a letter written to a priest where CM tells him he has a "list" and that he wanted to put the priest in a "cage"-CM said that all men were his "slaves"- Ron Hubbard said the same thing!FYI).

I can say she is leading a different life and wants nothing to do with her past associations.She does fear them,but she is keeping busy and is trying to forget her past.

I did feel badly showing up on her porch one day,but we were just trying to gain some information.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:10 am:   

In the book Manson in His Own Words by Emmons, Charlie mentions supplying up on oil for the heating/cooking stove at Barker Ranch in the summer of 69. BD was in and out of there during this period. Z mentions "Stove Oil" in one of his communications. Co-incidence?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:27 am:   

Click on the pic at bottom left. You can see a 55 gal drum(stove oil?) and the actual oil stove at Barker.

http://www.squeakyfromme.org/barker.htm
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:09 am:   

Heck, if you order a copy of Chris Waites's book, you can actually see a genuine Phillips 66 oil can that Kaczynski used to make a wood stove.

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