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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   

I ran across this recent article written by Karl Stampfl Managing News Editor of the Michigan Press. In it he describes Ted's years at Michigan (62 - 66). Attached to his article is a hand-written letter (with envelope included) to him from Ted which includes a hand-written passage from his 1979 autobiography.
http://www.michigandaily.com/media/paper851/docume nts/0e05v2a0.pdf

Although I realize that this letter is written thirty-some years after the Zodiac correspondences, some of the wording, writing and context is never-the-less interesting coming from one of the possible suspects of the Zodiac crimes. Take a look at the article, in particular the following:

1. In Stampfl’s article, he writes of Ted during his years at Michigan (62-66) – I believe that he may have taken this quote from the Sally Johnson Psychological Report:

“He began to have nightmares. In them, he was constantly hounded by organized society, which he usually manifested as psychologists. The psychologists tried to control his mind with tricks, causing him to grow angrier and angrier. Eventually, this man who did not bend - not even in the world of dreams - would break. He would kill the psychologists as well as their allies, and afterward, feel relief and liberation. Then, though, his victims would spring back up. As time went by, he grew more successful in keeping them dead by concentrating hard enough.”

Compare this to the possible Zodiac “desk top poem” letter in which the poet states
the “victim won’t die” and/or “sick of living, unwilling to die.”
http://www.zodiackiller.com/ZPoem.html

2. Note the hand printing from the envelope to Karl Stampfl and then compare it to the envelope from the Belli letter. The printing, I think, is quite distinct with the M’s being quite characteristic in that there appear to always be the two very short strokes in the middle of the two long strokes making up the total letter (this is quite consistent in all of Ted’s writings and in Z’s, too), strong, block style, no comma between the city and state.
http://www.michigandaily.com/media/paper851/docume nts/0e05v2a0.pdf
http://www.zodiackiller.com/BelliEnvelope.html

3. Note in the context of Ted’s handwritten letter, similarities to Z’s in the various
printed letter styles: the k’s, d’s, I’s, r’s, M’s, f’s.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/Letters.html

4. Note the phrasing in this instance:
Zodiac: “In answer to your asking for more details…”
http://www.zodiackiller.com/ZLetter1.html
Ted’s letter to Stampfl: “In answer to your request for information…”


5. Note the insertion of word/character left out utilizing a carat below the line (this is characteristic of one that has knowledge of proofreading). Page 3 in Ted’s transcription
http://www.zodiackiller.com/Mikado5.html

6. Use of the words “fiddled around” by Ted in his transcription, Page 3 and Zodiac’s use of “fiddle & fart around.”
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LATimesLetter.html

7. Beginning a sentence with the word “So” Page 3, paragraph 2 of Ted’s transcribed letter to Stampfl, compared to Zodiac’s use (twice) in 7 page bomb letter and the Kathleen Johns letter
http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter1.html
http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter2.html
http://www.zodiackiller.com/JohnsLetter.html

8. State abbreviation of California as “Calif.” Almost every envelope of Zodiac’s was addressed using this abbreviation. http://www.michigandaily.com/media/paper851/docume nts/0e05v2a0.pdf
http://www.zodiackiller.com/ChronicleEnvelope.html
http://www.zodiackiller.com/VTHEnvelope.html

There are several other interesting comparisons which could possibly be made, including numbering of pages in the upper right hand corner, underscoring of words for infliction, similarities in abbreviating and in crossing out a word while recorrecting it to the right and in utilizing the semi-colon (something that a lot of people try to avoid; however, is utilized by the Zodiac, too).

Sorry for the long post, but I thought this was intriguing for those who are interested in comparing an additional known writing of Ted's.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:56 pm:   

Very interesting, Linda. Here's another intriguing one, taken from one of Kaczynski's 1969 mathematical papers. Note the reference to the unit circle, a postulated arc, and measurements along that arc. The end result appears to be a function referencing 2pi, which is the number of radians in a circle.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:59 pm:   

Hi, Doug... Glad to see your posts again. You point out another interesting parallel in the same time frame as the Z's Mt. Diablo Code.

There's one other thing that I've just noticed relating to the writings. In most instances, both Ted and the Z do not like to utilize a "margin." Most (not all, but most) of Z's correspondences begin at the far left of the page and continue to the far right with little, if no, margin. Compare that to some of Ted's letters or other documents - for instance, the one mentioned http://www.michigandaily.com/media/paper851/docume nts/0e05v2a0.pdf
Note how Ted avoids the pre-written margin and makes use of the entire page. If I'm not mistken, this is not inconsistent with Ted's writing pattern, including his journals, over the years. To me, this is an unusual trait of conservatism for someone who is a highly educated and known to be an excellent writer - margins are certainly what is taught in school and considered an important part of writing techniques.

What are your thoughts on this observation?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   

I thought initially that Ted was using his margins in order to save on stationery--I think that's a common practice among prison inmates. But looking over his "free" writings, it's easy to see that he likes a margin of about a half-inch on the left, and takes the writing as far over to the right as he can.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   

I noted that even on the bomb diagrams of both Ted and Zodiac, they each utilized the majority of the page on which they drew, leaving little space for margin.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:25 am:   

I find it surprising the News Editor actually opened a letter sent by Ted. I mean, if you got a letter, box or whatever from the unibomber, would you open it?

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   

I don't think it would be a problem at this juncture, at least if it's nothing more than a standard letter. I might approach a box with a bit more caution, though. I understand they're having staffing problems at the Supermax these days. I wouldn't be surprised if the bugger found a way to break out--he's smart enough, and patient enough.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   

I'd open only if I was sure he was still behind bars! LOL -

Seriously, though, I'd like opinions as to what others think of the writing comparisons pointed out in this correspondence... Again, this is just one item of comparison between Ted's and Z documents. There are numerous others which, in many cases, Doug has already identified.

Thanks for any of your thoughts on the issue.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   

IMO, I don't think Zodiac or Ted K were concerned with margins!
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Obiwan
Username: Obiwan

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 9:40 am:   

I agree with you about the M's Linda. They are very similar, made with 4 downstrokes it seems. Also note that in the Mich. Daily letter, TK shows errors with strikethrough text, so that you can see what he had written before. Zodiac does this in the Belli letter, and perhaps elsewhere. This type of error correction is often taught to scientists & engineers, when writing in their lab books, because it helps you see what you did in case you need to go back and change things.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   

Hi, Obi... The strikethrough is another very interesting similarity. There appear to be numerous similarities in both Zodiac and Kaczynski writings, many of which are very unique to individual writing style. Even after so many years have gone by, Kaczynski still maintains his writing style/preferences as we can tell from things known to have been written by him. Comparing known Zodiac writings to those of Kaczynski is eye-catching and is, to me, one of the major reasons (in combination with others - i.e. code writing, bomb-making, publicity seeking threat maker) that TK should be at the top of the Z suspect list.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 12:11 am:   

Here's a comparison that shows the extreme closeness in general "color" (letterspacing, wordspacing, linespace, relative size) between Kaczynski's writing (top) and Zodiac's Dragon Letter

TKZ comparison
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 1:33 am:   

Another great example of how similar the writings are. The "thank you's" are almost identical, as is the capital "I," and the r's, to me, are very distinct...almost v'like.
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Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 7:22 am:   

Nice three-stroke 'k', too.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 9:26 am:   

To my eye the chief things are the plain-vanilla renderings of the letterforms, the relative character heights, and the big, gappy wordspacing. Also note how the h runs into the capital T in the Th combo. Both writers do this fairly consistently.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   

The sample is certainly passable for Z's handwriting, IMO, although both are pretty generic. I'm glad Ted at least got his tuna...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:07 am:   

Life is tough at the Supermax. I wonder what he wanted with 50 one-cent stamps?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:10 am:   

Could be he wanted to make a glue cocktail!
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:51 am:   

Or he learned how to make blotter acid and was supplementing his .23/hour pay.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:15 pm:   

The spacing between words is similar. The S is the same and that tells me a lot. The S is almost 5-like, which would be something a mathematician might do. WOW
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:47 pm:   

I noticed the s's too. Doug, the similarities are unreal. Re the stamps--maybe he wanted to post them on his butt and kiss his
ass goodbye!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   

The question I've asked myself is, how much effort would be required to go from Kaczynski's writing to Zodiac's, and could it be duplicated without an excess amount of conscious thought?
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 10:08 am:   

I think the S is made naturally not forced. In all of Zodiac's letters the S is made like a 5. Even in the "Bates had to die" the S is 5-like.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   

The trick, I think, would have been to develop a style of disguise that doesn't involve a conscious alteration in the way the individual characters are produced. And really, there isn't much if any difference between Kaczynski's letterforms and Zodiac's. Zodiac does utilize extra pen lefts on characters such as his P (capital and lowercase) and the lowercase "b." And because Kaczynski is writing naturally and fluidly, he's connecting some of his characters. Apart from that, I don't think it would have been difficult at all to get from Ted's handprinting to Zodiac's. Slow it down; use extra pen lifts, and use a felt-tipped pen. That's all it would have taken.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   

Hey Doug. I haven't looked into the Ted K. connection much. I have a couple of questions.

1. Do you think Ted K. was the Zodiac?

2. Has Ted K. DNA been checked with the DNA from the Zodiac letters?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 11:01 pm:   

Socal, I think the possibility is good that Kaczynski did the Zodiac deeds. I can't say to a certainty that that's the case, but I believe he's a very strong suspect.

Ted's DNA has not yet been checked against the partial print that the SFPD now claims it has, to the best of my knowledge.
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:05 am:   

Thanks Doug.

One more question for anyone out there. Why wouldn't they check his DNA to the partial print?

He sounds like a good suspect, he was in the area, and the writing samples look very similar.

Is there any process that we need to take to get that done?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:32 am:   

I think they're convinced it's not worth the effort. After all, serial killers don't change their modus operandi.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:02 pm:   

Actually, I think they do know. They certainly have access to Ted's DNA and the DNA taken from the Z envelopes. You would never make me believe that they weren't curious enough to see if there was some type of match - or EXCLUSION - especially with Ted already being such a high profile killer. Certainly, if Ted's DNA did not match, they would be the first to say that the theory was all wet and downed by DNA... They haven't done that - in fact, haven't they now "closed" the cold case - and shortly after the DNA was produced. I think there's something more here than meets the eye.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   

Wouldn't Ted's DNA automatically be entered into CODIS? Has whatever is available from Z been entered into CODIS?

If so, Ted's DNA would presumably be instantly matched with every other sample in the database and, if there was no match, there would be no press conference held to announce that "TED KACZYNSKI IS NOT THE ZODIAC KILLER!"

This also presumes of course that DNA from Z is legitimate, handled properly etc. etc.

I agree that killers change M.O. and LE often overlooks related cases based on differences. Doug's research certainly indicates that the DNA comparison SHOULD be done if it hasn't already, IMO.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   

I would have to disagree with you that no announcement would be made. On the contrary, I would think that it would make quite the news story that the high profile killer of Ted Kaczynski was not the perpetrator of the infamous, high profile Zodiac killings. The SFPD is certainly aware that Ted is a well known suspect (and with very good reason). If they knew the DNA did not match, they should/would be the first to shout it out. I personally called and spoke with one of the detectives after the DNA was compared to that of Arthur Allen and a couple of other obscure suspects (with no match). I asked if the DNA had been compared (or would be compared) to Ted's and was told that this was an on-going case and that nothing could be discussed. Did that mean they were in the process of comparing the DNA; did it mean they didn't care; did it mean they already knew something? Not really sure, but they were clearly aware of the countless parallels between the two killers to warrant a comparison...
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:26 am:   

Linda,

I hope your answer from the detectives means that there is some continuing investigation based on the DNA evidence but I seriously doubt it since SFPD closed its investigation in 2004.

Ted K. may be an excellent suspect, well-known to SFPD and any serious Z-searcher, but the possible connection is not generally known by the public and police departments generally don't relish acknowledging failure.

There was PLENTY of speculation of a BTK/Zodiac connection before Dennis Rader's arrest. I can only presume that the DNA samples from BTK (as an UNSUB) and Zodiac were compared at some point since both were (eventually) submitted to CODIS yet I don't remember any press conference announcing that "BTK/Dennis Rader IS NOT THE ZODIAC KILLER!".

Allen, on the other hand, was THE Zodiac suspect for years and his DNA comparison, I believe, was featured in the 2002 Primetime special. I don't think, therefore, that "no comment" would have been acceptable regarding ALA.

I think it is certainly possible that Ted's DNA was never compared to Z's for whatever reason and, if not, it absolutely SHOULD be. A DNA match would have to be acknowledged, IMO. A non-match? not necessarily so...

It sure would be nice, by the way, to have a list of suspects that the SFPD HAS compared with Z's DNA besides Allen.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:27 am:   

I'm not so sure that the Zodiac print has been entered into CODIS. It is, after all, a partial print, and we've not been told exactly how partial it really is. I'm guessing that it's complete enough to do eliminations, but not complete enough to do inclusions with any degree of confidence.

Then again, like the fingerprints, we don't know if this is Zodiac's DNA. Given the ability nowadays to amplify even minuscule amounts of DNA, it might have come from someone else. This is why, I think, the authorities wanted so badly to be able to get material from at least one other source that matched.
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 12:29 am:   

Going back to Ted's request - the fifty stamps are strange enough, but just how do you get tuna from the prison commissary? Tuna comes in a can, you need a can opener to get at it, and I hope they don't arm prisoners with sharp metal objects.

I'm no expert in this, but (assuming Z and Ted are different people) couldn't the handwriting of both be simply the product of a similar mental illness afflicting both men? Call it "the schoolboy syndrome of a helpless kid" if you will: very precise lettering, glaring use of "Please" and "Thank you," begging for attention.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:12 am:   

Could be, J_eric, but that's not exactly the point. Let's say that 25 percent of people have handwriting with those particular qualities, which may be a bit on the high end, but let's go with it. If there were 250,000,000 people in the United States in 1969 that means that 62,500,000 people could be tied to Zodiac through handwriting. Not very impressive a connection, if you ask me.

But now, take all the people in out of the 250,000,000 who were white males around 27 to 35 years of age. Then out of that subset, take all who were killers. From that subset take all who were multiple killers. From that subset take all who were of the type of multiple killer with mass-murderer mentalities. From that subset, take all whose motivation was envy and despite against a particular representative class of victims. From that subset take all whose used murder as a means of garnering widespread publicity.

Now, from that tiny figure, take 25 percent, which represents those who would be expected to have the handprinting style in question. That's your answer. And it's still only scratching the surface.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 2:54 pm:   

J eric, Tuna doesn't just come in a can. In September 2000 Starkist introduced tuna in a vacuum sealed foil pouch and by the December 2001 writing of the above letter, tuna-in-a-pouch was being produced by several companies and was fairly common place.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   

Good point Johno. I just had one of those pouches of tuna yesterday. Maybe Ted wanted the foil pouch for something. Hmmm
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   

I'll be on the lookout for any fishy-smelling packages.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   

If you get a fishy smelling package, don't open it!
It's probably from the Tunabomber.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   

That's hilarious, Johno!
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:22 am:   

Good one Johno! BTW, ya'll ever see that guy on those endless poker programs that's known as the Unabomber? Wears that same hooded sweatshirt and oversized shades.

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