Jack Tarrance? Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Zodiackiller.com Message Board » Other Zodiac Suspects » All Other Zodiac Suspects » Jack Tarrance? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:37 am:   

First I've heard of this guy. Tom, have you seen this? Did DKaufman really try to sell you a piece of Stine's shirt?

I read over this guy's site and he makes some pretty compelling connections. Just wondering what your take is on this.

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?s=e811cb4 b825201af59a1488b2f5f3d73&threadid=279589
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   

Dennis Kaufman is a conman, nothing more. He has some sort of axe to grind with his stepdad, which is why he's accusing him of being Z. The first clue that he's full of it is the fact that he tried to sell a piece of what he claimed was Stine's shirt to Tom for $50,000; I've seen the e-mail, and Kaufman has spent the last several years denying that fact. It only goes to show that he's trying to make money on this but otherwise has no interest in the case; the fact that he wanted to sell a phony piece of Stine's shirt instead of turning it over to the authorities speaks volumes.

The second clue is his baseless claim that his stepdad murdered his mother; I have a copy of her death certificate, and it shows that she died at the UC Davis Medical Center of cardio respiratory arrest due to anoxic brain injury due to respiratory failure due to autoimmune cholangitis. In other words, she died of natural causes due to the rare disease she had. True, she was only 50 years old, but people can die of natural causes at any age.

Dennis Kaufman is not to be taken seriously. Law enforcement obviously doesn't, or they would have arrested Jack Tarrance for the Zodiac murders years ago.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   

Hmmm.......thanks Ed. I knew that Tom or yourself or one of the regulars here would have the scoop on this guy. If he is a fraud/conman he sure lucked out on the details in regards to his step-dad - there is alot there that would give you pause for consideration.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   

Just as there is for every other suspect out there. Circumstantial evidence, which is all anyone has on any of the known suspects, can be forced to fit just about anyone you want. In fact, when Mike Rodelli and I talked to Lt Bruton at SFPD back in October 1999, he said you could open a page of the telephone book at random, throw a dart, investigate the person it lands on, and build up a good case against him. It's unfortunate but true. I personally believe the only way this case will be solved now is to find the smoking gun, ie, the hood, knife, 4 guns (.22, 2 x 9mm, and .45) and Stine's wallet, keys and shirt tail.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:13 pm:   

Do you suppose that like Dennis Rader, aka BTK, the Z has a mother lode? Is it known that Z took trophies from all of his victims? You mentioned Stine's wallet and keys......are there more missing items? Forgive me for having to ask these things.....I've followed the case for a couple of years through this site and a couple of books but in no way am I an expert on the details. My God there is SO much out there on this case.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:17 pm:   

An afterthought:

I just remembered that dkaufman claims that Tarrance is the Red Phantom killer from 1940's Texarkana as well.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   

Z took items only from Stine, and I don't consider them trophies but rather proof of his culpability; the wallet and car keys were incidental, I suspect, because Z really made it look like a cab robbery.

Kaufman also claims his stepdad is responsible for perhaps dozens of murders. Using the radian in a way that Z never intended, Kaufman drew radians extending out from Mt D and then claimed that murder victims were found radiating out from there along the radians. He otherwise offered nothing to back that absurd claim up, and clearly does not understand what the radian was intended for.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

Recall that Zodiac wanted nothing to do with Hartnell's car keys, or his wallet. That wasn't what he was about. His goal was to take revenge against a class of persons whom he envied.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   

Doug & Ed, I think you're right about Zodiac's indifference to "trophies". I believe he only cut the bloody swath from Stine's shirt so he could prove he had killed a man after the failed attempts on Mageau and Hartnell. I think those earlier failures really bothered him and led to extreme feelings of inadequacy. Poor Stine. If Z had killed the other two, he might still be alive today enjoying grandchildren.

Bernie
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   

I agree with you, Greygost. The Stine scenario was completely different from the first three. This was right after Berryessa, when people began speculating all kinds of unkind things about Zodiac that I'm sure he didn't like being imputed to him. Stine may have been nothing more than a big red herring, which, as you observe, was very unfortunate for Stine. Not only did he prove that he had killed a man, but that he had done it in an audacious manner as well.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 4:05 am:   

This guy had me going for awhile. I still think his step-dad makes for a "better than average" suspect. He had a lot of circumstantial evidence that Jack lived in the right places at the right times, had been in trouble with the law, played around with dynamite, guns, was competent in drawing electronic schematics, had a ham radio license, etc, etc.

The problem arose when the hand writing didn't match up. I mean, if it doesn't match then it just won't work, and it didn't match up. In every case, his step dad Jack wrote the small letter "a" completely different. I went to his site recently and I see where he dug up one instance (supposedly) where he wrote his small "a" like Z, but that's it. In every case, Z wrote the small "a" one way, this guy wrote it exactly the opposite I've also noticed he tends to leave out anything that would rule his Jack out, so you are only seeing the evidence that looks good.

Appearantly, some people in law enforcement thought he was a possibly good suspect as well, but that was years ago.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:27 am:   

Quoting Ed Neil:

"Kaufman also claims his stepdad is responsible for perhaps dozens of murders. Using the radian in a way that Z never intended, Kaufman drew radians extending out from Mt D and then claimed that murder victims were found radiating out from there along the radians. He otherwise offered nothing to back that absurd claim up, and clearly does not understand what the radian was intended for."

What was the radian intended for?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:44 am:   

Cougar:

There's a bare bones description of the significance of the radian on Jake Wark's Z site here:

http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/radian1.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   

That's based on Penn's "research," which is totally meaningless. I wouldn't give it a second thought, all it does it serve to confuse the issue.

We don't have many clues regarding the radian, but what we do have is very specific:

The map coupled with this code will tell you where the bomb is set. (6-26-1970 letter)

and

PS. The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians + # inches along the radians (7-26-1970 letter)

Penn focused on the word "radian" and totally ignored everything else; that's why he decided to place a single radian on Mt D and rotated it to see what he wanted Z to say.

In reality, looking at the clues, Z is telling us that the Mt D code refers to radians and inches. Coupled with the map (which is what he said to do in the first place!), the code would presumably tell us to go in a clockwise direction starting at zero (that's what the "magnetic indicator" suggests) a specific number of radians, and then out from the center a specific number of inches. That point would therefore indicate where Z claimed to have buried the bus bomb.

So, placing a single radian on Mt D is totally meaningless, because that is not what Z said to do, and drawing radians out from the summit of Mt D and plotting alleged murder sites along them is just as meaningless, despite what Kaufman claims. He clearly does not know what he's talking about.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cougar
Username: Cougar

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:15 pm:   

Thanks Ed and Greygost.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 1:47 pm:   

Here's the biggest piece of evidence that shows Dennis Kaufmans' stepdad COULDN'T have been The Zodiac: his stepdad Tarrance had an UNBELIEVABLY THICK SOUTHERN ACCENT!

This guy made President Lyndon Johnson sound like a cultured British gentleman! You can hear Tarrance talk here (scroll down to the 2nd to last page & click the links that say "LISTEN"):

http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/

As you can hear, he sounds like an oakie from Muskogie (no offence to anyone).

Sorry, but the real Zodiac made 'live' phone calls to police immediately after 2 of his murders: Blue Rock Springs & Lake Berryessa. And guess what? In both calls, the police dispatchers stated emphaticaly that Zodiac had NOT A HINT of any accent whatsoever! He certainly didn't sound like Gomer Pile mixed with Slim Pickins, which is what Mr. Tarrance sounded like.

PLUS the real Zodiac spent 2-hours in a car with Kathleen Johns talking to her intermitently. She also never stated that he had a THICK SOUTHERN DRAWL.

So just on the basis of wacko Dennis Kaufman's stepdads' extremely unique voice, his qualification as the true Zodiac Killer goes- POOF!- up in smoke!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 12:19 am:   

Well, it's not really clear if Kathleen Johns actually spent 2 hours in the car with Zodiac, only "maybe." I'd say "probably" but it's not really clear. We know he claimed credit for it though. Still, your point is a valid one about the accent.

Plus, like I said, the small letter "a" never matches.

You can have a guy that matches in every way, but all it takes is one small thing to rule them out. People need to learn how to let their pet suspect go when something rules them out. That's why I personally think "none" of the known perps is Zodiac. My best wild a**ed guess is that he was probably someone in the Navy stationed in Valejo or Tresure Island.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 8:09 am:   

Kevin wrote: "People need to learn how to let their pet suspect go when something rules them out."

Perfect statement, Kevin. I think we could all learn a lesson & be the much wiser using that logic. But sometimes an investigator, whether professional or amateur, gets so "married" to his suspect that he will find any excuse to NOT eliminate him. Alot like being "co-dependant" on someone in a relationship. You'll find any reason to dismiss the abuse you might suffer in order to keep that person you origianlly fell in love with in your life.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   

There are so many things that rule out all the known suspects it's not funny, and yet, sometimes ideas that are quite bizarre are trotted out to explain things away. Allen is one such example; his writing doesn't match Z's, therefore he used a projector and copied other people's writing. His fingerprints don't match, so that means he used someone's severed fingers. He doesn't even match eyewitness descriptions, so the eyewitness accounts are minimized and/or substantially altered, such as adding fog to make it difficult to see Z at Stine's cab.

Then we have Kane. The fact is, a completely non-official investigation by someone from another jurisdiction entirely identified him as Z based on the disappearance of Donna Lass and her dubious connection to Z based on a card that could have been written by anyone, faked by anyone using information already made public and could mean anything. We don't even know that a crime was committed since there was no investigation into her disappearance, which may have been totally voluntary. Not only that, Kane's writing doesn't match Z's and his prints don't match either (being a criminal, his prints are in AFIS, and Z's prints have been run and yet there's been no match, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together).

Then we have Jack Tarrance. The first thing Dennis Kaufman did was lie about how his mother died; he claims his father murdered her, and yet, her death certificate proves she died of natural causes. Much of the "evidence" presented by Kaufman has no relevance to the case, and the rest appears to be nothing more than fiction from that yellow book, such as the phrase, "fiddle & fart round" being used in Lubbock County, where Jack happens to be from. He also claims that the "wide flange beam" symbol actually is a symbol for wide flange beams, then claims Jack worked for a steel company in 1950, so that's why it's in the Halloween card.

Ultimately, just like every other single suspect out there, what "evidence" Kaufman has is either circumstantial, irrelevant or just plain BS (and there's no way of telling what he made up just to make his stepdad seem more suspicious). The fact that he tried to sell a piece of what he claimed to be Stine's shirt to Tom instead of turning it over to SFPD as evidence speaks volumes. And the fact that Kaufman claims his stepdad Jack was in jail more than once means that his prints were taken and should be in AFIS, and since Z's prints have been run and there's been no match, that means that Jack is ruled out, despite the questionable "evidence" against him...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 1:02 am:   

All good points Ed. Would you mind taking this a bit further with Marshall? He's a guy who always intrigued me, I guess he intrigued Narlow a lot too, don't know if he still does though. Can you come up with anything that would outright rule him out? Seems like he is the least known.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joanne_in_mb
Username: Joanne_in_mb

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 3:14 am:   

You've got to admit, though, the resemblance of this guy to the composite sketches is striking!

http://www.JoAnnesPage.net
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 4:20 pm:   

Mr X is a dead ringer for the composite. Jack Tarrance looks more like Gumby in comparison.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joanne_in_mb
Username: Joanne_in_mb

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 5:49 pm:   

Ed, who is Mr. X and do you have some pictures of him ("Mr. X is a dead ringer for the composite.")?

http://www.JoAnnesPage.net
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   

X is someone I discovered in June 1999 who was extensively investigated by Mike Rodelli, and yes, I have some pics of him but unfortunately, he has threatened to sue if his name is ever published in connection to this case, so I hope you understand that Mike, myself and the handful of others that know about this guy can't post pics nor e-mail them out to anyone.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joanne_in_mb
Username: Joanne_in_mb

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 3:18 am:   

Ed, without naming any names, can you give us some details about why you feel Mr. X is the Zodiac? If you don't feel comfortable posting them on the board, can you email them to me at JoAnneMB1@aol.com?

http://www.JoAnnesPage.net
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 3:22 am:   

Ed, Proof positive with your argument re: the swatch; if Kaufman did have Stine's swatch via the belongings of Terrance, SFPD or FBI would have snatched it from Kaufman immediately after finding out he tried to sell it to Tom. Kaufman would have then been arrested and likely charged for attempting to sell the evidence. End of story. Kaufman is full of it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 3:28 am:   

Joanne, the following link contains a previous discussion quite a few years back about Jack Terrance, AKA, Jack the Stepdad:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/220.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 3:28 am:   

Joanne, the following link contains a previous discussion quite a few years back about Jack Terrance, AKA, Jack the Stepdad, but there is not much there:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/220.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 4:51 am:   

Joanne, I have seen no evidence that Mr X is Z. I've seen lots of interesting circumstantial evidence, but no smoking gun, no motive, no nothing. One thing is for certain, however: I am of the opinion that he is a dead ringer for the sketch, and that's all I was saying.

TT: quite right. Not only that, he likely would have been charged with obstruction of justice at the very least. Once I proved his mother died of natural causes (piece of cake, it's typed right there on her death certificate, of which I have a copy) and was not murdered like he claimed, that immediately made Kaufman's entire story suspect.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Søren_roest_korsgaard
Username: Søren_roest_korsgaard

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 7:58 am:   

Have read some books about Graphology, his handwriting doesn’t seem to match the Zodiacs in any way. There is to many contradicts to the zodiac writing..

Mister Kaufman must be a crook.

I am currently working with an handwriting analyze of one of the zodiacs letters, with a little luck I will post it this weekend.

Be aware of possible: bad grammar, spelling, misplaced comma etc. I am not a American. :-)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joanne_in_mb
Username: Joanne_in_mb

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 4:47 pm:   

Welcome to the board, Soren! I can't wait to find out the results of the handwriting analysis.

http://www.JoAnnesPage.net
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bomaye
Username: Bomaye

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:23 pm:   

Ed, based on your "J. Terrance isn't Z because..." crapola, what makes you believe your "Mr. X" is a more viable suspect? I'm not saying J. Terrance isn't or is Z, but there are a lot of strange coinky dinks between the two. And there is a lot of actual "proof" to back up a lot of Kenny Kligon's (joke) talk. Also, the following saying is one of the most ludacris comments you have ever made (or that I have read in the past year or so): "Using the radian in a way that Z never intended..." Well Ed, no one, except Z knows what his intentions with the radians and map were. Sure J. Wark's site tries to describe what his intentions were, but that was just his THEORY.
And I would like you to open up a phone book, take a dart, throw it, and whatever name it lands on, try to prove to me that, that person is Z. Back it up with documentation like Klingon (joke again) did.
This is not meant to be a bashing session, I am just sick of everyone ruling out everyone else's POI just because it's not theirs.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:34 pm:   

Bomaya, when you can show me a documented Zodiac encounter in which he was described as having a thick southern drawl, I'll start to believe there's a snowball's chance in hell that Jack could be a legit suspect.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   

Dennis Kaufman is a conman.

Quite telling how he's allegedly trying hard to "prove his case," yet he absolutely avoids anything that might expose his rubbish for what it is. For example:

Last summer after I located Nancy Slover,I was contacted by numerous people who wanted her to listen to recordings of various voices. Why? To see if any of them sounded like the Zodiac. Virtually every researcher I know of who has a suspect was interested in Nancy taking a listen. Not Dennis. Why? Because he knows his "suspect" has a thick accent and that Zodiac did not. Therefore, Dennis avoids Nancy like the plague in an effort to keep his traveling freakshow on the road another day.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bomaye
Username: Bomaye

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:44 pm:   

Tom,

Again, I didn't say I thought JT (he originally brought sexy back) was the Z. I just said, to sum it all up, Ed is so quick to shoot down anything that doesn't interest him. Meaning, he can't seem to think outside the box.
And who is to say that he had that southern drawl all his life? I have family from the east coast that moved to the "deep south" and now talk like the "Good Ol'Boys".
One last thing, Tom... you have to admit, Klingon did a good job matching Jack's whereabouts with Z's whereabouts.
(And it's Bomaye, with an "E")
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:48 pm:   

Any person who listened to the interview of Dennis Kaufman last night had the privilege of listening to two hours of exaggeration and outright lies. Up until last night, I even gave Dennis the benefit of the doubt. He presented an interesting story on his site. He had two hours to prove his case last night. He failed. He even proved his motivation for his accusation. He has some unresolved issues with his stepfather, who was very likely the kind of person Dennis described. However, no matter how nasty this man may have been, Dennis and his crony presented nothing worthy of foundation. He also claimed that his site was the only site that held no bias, the only site containing truth. I know he was referring to this site, but he has also visited mine. I am a member of this board and have become a frequent poster. I do not agree with Tom and Ed on everything and I express as much. Everyone seems to have their say here, as long as they don't make terrorist threats, which Dennis readily admits to. Sure, everyone has opinions, including the webmasters here. But instead of bias, I see that Tom has provided an excellent medium for free discussion. Dennis Kaufman has lost all credibility with me. There is nothing he can say about Jack Tarrance that can't be said about a multitude of other men. All of his so-called "facts" seem to be conveniently out of view. I heard the two of them blatantly lying with my own two ears. He has his own devil he wants to vilify further, at the expense of the truth.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 6:03 pm:   

Bomaye, first of all, I do not believe that Mr X is a "more viable" suspect, so please get your facts straight. I may have discovered him, and I agree that there are some odd circumstantial coincidences about him, but there is zero evidence to indicate he is Z. Not only that, FWIW, I do not consider any of the known suspects, including the much maligned Art Allen, to be viable in any way, shape or form.

Secondly, what "crapola" are you talking about? Dennis Kaufman tried to sell Tom a piece of what he claimed to be Paul Stine's shirt for several thousands of dollars; do you honestly believe someone who is willing to profit off what he says is a piece of a dead man's shirt and an important piece of evidence is on the level about anything else? Linking Jack to Z through "The Mikado" and Jack being stationed in Japan is ludicrous, and claiming that Jack's ham radio experience shows he knew about codes is complete rubbish, especially since nowhere did Z use Morse code (which a ham radio operator must know).

Thirdly, Z described precisely what to do with the map of the Bay Area, Mt D and his code: it was intended to show where he buried his infamous bus bomb, and he even said that's what they were for. There is one and only one way to use those tools to locate a fixed point: one uses radians intead of degrees to obtain a vector from Mt Diablo, and then one measures out the specified number of inches from the center until a specific point is reached. If you or anyone else can show how a single point can be specified in any other way, please educate me on this. By the way, I must ask if you ever took and passed any math classes; if you did, surely would understand what Z meant (in college, I went as far as Calculus 3, so please do not take me for a fool. I actually do know what I am talking about). Drawing lines radiating out from Mr D at angles of one radian and then plotting alleged murder sites (for which Kaufman has not bothered to list the names of these alleged victims nor give any sources for these alleged unsolved murders) is not what Z intended, no matter how much anyone chooses to ignore his very specific directions and use of logic, reasoning and common sense. It's pure crap to say that "no one, except Z knows what his intentions with the radians and map were." All you need to do is read his own words! I suggest you educate yourself on that particular aspect of his crimes before making such asinine statements.

And, the fact is, I am not ruling out other suspects because they are not mine, they need to be ruled out because there is no evidence against any of them other than (often questionable) circumstantial evidence. Until a certain discredited political cartoonist who was sued for plagiarism introduced doubt into the evidence in order to make his suspect Allen look more credible, LE had faith enough in that evidence to rule out thousands of suspects; I suggest you check out the Graysmith's inaccuracies and fabrications discussion and educate yourself on this person's character, then return to looking at the suspects with an unbiased eye. And the fact is, Jack Tarrance (among other suspects) have been arrested and fingerprinted, and criminals like him would have had their prints and writing compared to Z's and would have been arrested had there been a match, and that's assuming that any investigative agency truly checked them out, and, in Jack's case, I sincerely doubt that ever happened. It's nothing but pure, wild, unadulterated speculation to assume that some sort of conspiracy by the powers-that-be is responsible for keeping the truth from even being known.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joanne_in_mb
Username: Joanne_in_mb

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:03 am:   

I missed the Dennis Kaufman interview... is there a recording of it online?

http://www.JoAnnesPage.net
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 11:41 am:   

Bomaye wrote: "This is not meant to be a bashing session, I am just sick of everyone ruling out everyone else's POI just because it's not theirs."

Unfortunately, Bomaye, "Mr. X" WAS Ed's suspect. He's the one who originally developed him as a P.O.I.! I wouldn't be so quick to judge him.

Now, if Klingon's stepdad "Jack" was in fact the Zodiac, here's what he would have sounded like when he called the cops after the murder at Blue Rock Springs (using super-thick southern accent):

"Hi y'all. This heea's that thar Zodiac critter talkin' atcha'. 10-4? I be the varmit who jes' now hornswaggled them 2 smoochers down yonder in the park. Just mosey on down a country mile or so from the substation & sho' 'nuff yewl find ma' handiwork.

"I also done in them 2 greenhorns while they was cathin' a 'sat-a-spell' last Christmas down yonder Herman Road a mite. Y'all come catch me now, ya hee-ah? Yeee-haw!"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 12:01 am:   

Joanne, I have a recording of the entire show, however, I cannot upload them anywhere for some reason, and e-mailing the files has proven to be a pain (Tom never got it for some reason). There isn't much I can do about it until Monday... I want to post a link where it can be downloaded rather than e-mail it out to potentially thousands of people! LOL
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   

Here's a fascinating post by Tom: Zodiac's Alleged Fingerprints.

Law enforcement had enough faith in these prints to eliminate thousands of suspects. Now, if Tom has a copy of the prints, why then does Dennis Kaufman insist that the FBI couldn't compare the cab prints to the fingerprints of his stepdad Jack Tarrance because SFPD refused to cooperate? Can anyone say "bullpucky" (actually, I was thinking of another, much cruder word)? If Tom has a copy, the FBI sure as hell has them too, and they therefore must have compared the two and ruled Jack out. There's no way Kaufman could have talked to the FBI and had them say Jack was a "viable" suspect...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:11 pm:   

Other than Tarrance, what other suspects bare such a striking resemblence to the composites?...not to say that Tarrance is the fugitive but he sure matches up to the sketches.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:29 pm:   

Exiled, one of the sketches of Zodiac that Dennis uses isn't a true composite; it's merely an interpretation by a Sonoma detective on what Zodiac might look like without glasses. It was not based on any eyewitness description, regardless of what one might read in a certain blue book.

The most recent suspect I've seen who looks like the sketch is "Emmett," seen here at the lower right. He sure looks spot-on to me. The trouble is, I get info on at least one "Emmett" a week and they all can't be the Zodiac.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:39 pm:   

Tom, I am aware of that info...I was only refering to the original sketches.... The two military pics are somewhat close but with hats on you cant really tell....the other one?????... and since when did these guys(guy) become prominent suspects?.....which of the widely known suspects can compare to Tarrance's close resemblence?... I say none. Once again, I am not claiming in any way that I believe Tarrance is the infamous killer, but he does match the composites.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:10 am:   

Exiled, if the pics of Jack you're referring to are those at Kauffman's site, they show an old guy with gray hair. Zodiac was never described in that way.

Regardless, you can pick a 1960s yearbook at random and find ample suspects, at least if you are of the belief Zodiac looked exactly like a sketch of someone seen at night from 60 feet away and who was likely wearing a disguise of some sort...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:45 am:   

Do the composites match the descriptions in the first place? Do the composites show a heavy set guy around age 30, as most witness statements say? I personally do not think they do. It's hard to think of all the wasted effort that must have been put in towards finding someone who matched a composite that probably isn't close to being accurate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:31 am:   

The idea of the composites not matching the suspect is a possibility....however my interpretation of the witness descriptions is that of a man 5'9 to 5'11, 180 to 200lbs stalky build(not fat or heavy-set), a protruding abdomen(pot-belly) with square/average facial features(not round or chubby).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:49 am:   

Exiled, you just described most men in their 30s!

In any event, it's a description that would surely match tens of thousands just in the city of SF. But who is to say it's even accurate? I mean, look at the Lake Berryessa composite -- longer hair, parted on the side, no glasses. No guarantee it was the Zodiac, but I'd guess it was. And if so, he changed his appearance nicely in just a couple of weeks.

Makes me feel the SF description is all but worthless.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:51 am:   

I'm 99% sure that Mike Mageau specifically described a round face, although I don't have the report in front of me. Also, the female Lake Berryessa witnesses described a round face on the suspicious man who spied on them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stew
Username: Stew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:10 am:   

Tom, I think Mageau said a "large face" in the report.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:40 am:   

Mike Mageau has changed his description multiple times and is probably the least credible witness of all the victims(nothing personal against Mike, I can only imagine his stress level at the time)....and I'm 99% sure that the female lake berryessa witness(Cecelia Sheperd) never regained consiousness after being attacked and died 2 days later without giving any statement or description of her attacker....that was 2nd hand info from Bryan Hartnell who as you know had a difficult time with his hospital interview and like Mr. Mageau has since changed his account of the incident on at least 2 occasions. These attacks obviously had a profound and traumatic affect on the 2 survivng male victims and it is understandable that they have had a hard time coming to terms with their near death experiences. The most accurate description of "z" has to be of the two officers who stopped him shortly after the Stine murder...police men and women are specificly trained to carefully observe and recall the detailed info and physical descriptions of anyone they encounter during a manhunt(especially after a murder), so it should go with out saying that their description would be more consise and accurate than that of a traumatized victim.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:47 am:   

Exiled:

Investigators located at least five other people who may have seen the Zodiac the day of LB, including three female students from Pacific Union College. Here's the link (the descriptions go over a couple of pages):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DOJ13.html

A doctor from Los Gatos and his son are also mentioned on page 8 of the same DOJ report.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:38 am:   

Thank you Greygost for the link. I am familiar with the report and the witness's various descriptions of the suspect. It has always fascinated me that almost no one was able to specificly describe the fugitive in detail(regardless of his supposed desguises). The two policemen who encountered "z", I contend, are the most important witnesses to his overall physical build and facial description and they should be, not only are they(cops) trained to be as meticulous as possible, but these two particular patrolmen were closer to the fugitive than anyone else(with the lone possible exception of Kathy johns, who ironically was quick to point to the very composites described by the 2 officers in question)....Hartnell may have had just as close an encounter and even in broad daylight, but under extreme duress and his attacker was in a well concealed costume(in spite of some reports). I am not sure why many in the so-called "research community" readily dismiss(or ignore) the descriptions and composites by the 2 credible patrolmen....go figure.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:17 am:   

Despite the repetition of the "stocky" adjective, I do not think that means "fat," especially not a fat face. I've seen more than a few people, especially weight lifters, who were very stocky, with bony faces and even thin necks, which exaggerated the size of their faces & heads. The officers described Z as having a "barrel chest," not "fat."

I also know people with very wide jaws w/o a jutting chin. This gives them a very "large" face from the front view, regardless of their body weight. The attributes are not mutually exclusive.

I tend to trust the composites more than many people on here because when the officers and the teens saw Z, they didn't make significant changes. True, the teens were far away and couldn't have *created* a good composite drawing, but I think that they would *recognize* a matching drawing.
The officers involvement with the composites is also disputed, but I don't think it's logical, at all, that they wouldn't have made note of differences between the person they met, and the widely-seen drawing. In fact, it would make more sense for them to exclaim that they didn't recognize him because he didn't match the drawing. However, they didn't say that.

Another thing about Z's so-called disguises, (which I tend to think amounted to wearing baggy and bulky clothes.) If Z really, truly, wanted to disguise himself only when he did his thing, WHY was he still wearing his famous and identifying glasses when he talked to the officers? Of all things that were iconic about Zodiac' composites, it was his heavy glasses. If he didn't want to be recognized as The Zodiac, while leaving a crime scene, why not just pull off the glasses?? He may have turned his coat inside out to hide the blood, but he never took off the glasses. In fact, the officers' description include Zodiac using an elastic band to secure his glasses. That makes me think that he did wear glasses all the time, and that he was bluffing when he said the composite didn't resemble him.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:35 am:   

Hi-

My friend Jim personally spoke to these eywitnesses, and I am getting quite weary of all the talk about how "far away" they were. When you read the descriptions on these threads, you get the impression that they were "sixty feet away." When you talk to them, they say that they had 20/20 vision at the time and were ONLY 60 feet away. The cab was bathed in light, there was no fog, their windows were not wet with condensation, they were not in fear of their lives, and they are adamant that they saw what they saw.

I saw a "fisheye" lens photo here one time that made the cab look like it was in the next county. That is not the way it was! Anyone who goes there can see that they had an excellend vantage point.

The reason they felt the sketch is accurate is just what David said--they made only a few changes from the first to the second version. Certainly, the basic shape of the face did not change to a guy with a melon head.

Let's listen to what THEY had to say, instead of imposing what we think of their vantage point and the conditions that night. People clamored for years about wanting to know what they saw. Then when we find out, we toss it aside and say that they were so far away as to not be certain of what they were looking at, anyway. That is NOT what they say! We didn't need to bother speaking to them at all if the case is that they were so far away as to be useless. And Fouke seems to back them up (with some minor changes).

Mike
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:20 pm:   

Davidmm

I don't believe there were any police sketches/composites of Zodiac wearing glasses until after Paul Stine's murder. The only other sketches I'm aware of are Napa County's (Lake Berryessa) and another one from Sonoma County that Tom dug up. Neither shows the suspect wearing glasses.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:38 pm:   

Another point is, as Mike R has discovered, Fouke & Zelms had absolutely nothing to do with the second composite. And as I've pointed out before (among others), there is no credible evidence whatsoever other than the wild claims of a murderer who is a known liar that Fouke & Zelms stopped Z, much less talked to him (and the rantings of a certain discredited political cartoonist who was sued for plagiarism simply cannot be believed). Fouke himself denies it happened, and my analysis of the timing of events that night shows it is almost impossible for it have happened at all, much less how Z claimed it did; granted, there is a 15 second window of opportunity for it to have occurred, but everything else, including the words of the man (Fouke) who was actually there, militates against it. Please do not keep repeating Z's lie as if it were fact.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:50 pm:   

Greygost wrote:

"The only other sketches I'm aware of are Napa County's (Lake Berryessa) and another one from Sonoma County that Tom dug up. Neither shows the suspect wearing glasses."

Actually, Greygost, the Lake Berryessa sketch does in fact show Zodiac wearing glasses. They are sunglasses, and as the surviving victim Hartnell explained, they were clip-on sunglasses that had behind them a pair of other 'real' glasses. See sketch on this site at:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/SFPDNapa.html

So it's pretty obvious that Zodiac definitely needed glasses in order to see correctly. Otherwise he wouldn't bother with a 2nd pair of useless, fake, 'inner' glasses that could have gotten knocked loose & obstructed his vision during the violent stabbings that he knew he was going to committ.

Now I'll bet the type of rims he used during the Stine murder were probably nothing like the ones he normally wore. This would be an easy part of his looks to fake.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   

Vscantu:

I was referring to the face composites normally associated with wanted posters and the like. It's true the above shows glasses as the other famous sketch of Z in his "action" pose with hood and drawn pistol probably does also. I'm not sure of the value of those sketches as identifiers though, lol. If SFPD needed one of those sketches to stop a character dressed in that getup from strolling through San Fransisco neighborhoods, then the citizenry was really in trouble!

Cheers!

Bernie
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   

Here are the composites I was referring to side by side:

http://members.aol.com/ZSpeaking/comps.html

They're from Jake Wark's site, but they're credited to Tom.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:39 pm:   

I wonder if that "Sonoma" composite was in reality a "Solano" composite, and someone got confused?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:44 am:   

Doug, the drawing without glasses isn't a true composite; it's merely an interpretation by a Sonoma detective on what Zodiac might look like without glasses. It was not based on any eyewitness description, regardless of what one might read in a certain blue book.

Allegedly a drawing was done by Vallejo authorities. I'll hold my breath for that one...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:14 am:   

My take on things is that the composites were a reasonable enough match to Zodiac's appearance, and that his "I look like the description passed out only when I do my thing, the rest of the time I look entirele (sic) different" quote referred to the fact that he drastically altered his looks subsequent to nearly being nabbed at Presidio Heights, which was almost certainly the last time he 'did his thing' - perhaps by gaining/losing weight, dyeing his hair, altering the style in which he wore it, growing a beard/mustache, or maybe even all of the above. The second last item might explain why a hair was found behind the stamp on the 'Stine Letter' - it might have come off his beard/mustache when he licked the stamp.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:24 am:   

Tom, regardless of your "merely an interpretation" theory on the Sonoma composite, it was still used by law enforcement and is not much different than the original. The FBI routinely re-creates witness composites if they feel they can get a more accurate detail of the suspect.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:30 am:   

Exiled, how exactly was it "still used?"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:52 am:   

Tom, do you ever sleep??!!....Now I know that you already know this but; it was distributed to other LE agencies....but I'm not why it is even relevant...sometimes I think you guys just like to nit-pick and debate for the sake of an arguement....by the way, have you seen the latest "zodiac" trailer?...the version I seen last night did not have the part where A.L. Allen(John Carrol Lynch) says "I'm not the Zodiac, and If I were I certainly wouldn't tell you"....I'm not sure how significant that is but it is worth noting.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sanfranguns
Username: Sanfranguns

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:27 am:   

Exiled - if I'm not mistaken....and I might be...Didn't Allen actually say that in an interview or something?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:32 am:   

Sanfranguns, He said something along those lines...the point I was making is that I found it interesting that they ommited it from the trailer...or at least the one I saw last night.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:44 pm:   

Exiled, if that Sonoma sketch was distributed to other law enforcement agencies, they forgot to let the DOJ know, or even send them one. Also, they forgot to send one to the Napa County Sheriff's Dept., news media, etc.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:42 pm:   

Tom, Oh boy! If indeed you have the sources you say you do, call VPD, SFPD, or Solono county or better yet, the next time your down here I will take you to a retired VPD "worker" who can Physically show you one. DOJ does not have one? oh well, I just gave you several places to find one. But once again remind me, what is the relevance?????
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:59 pm:   

Exiled, those agencies might also have sketches of Scooby Doo. The Sonoma detective who drew it may also have distributed it for some reason. I've never seen it in any Zodiac file, and I've seen my share.

Regardless, that doesn't mean it was a composite drawing prepared by police with the aid of an eyewitness, which is exactly what Dennis would have us believe.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:02 pm:   

By the way Exiled, perhaps you can arrange to have one of your sources e-mail me one. It shouldn't be that hard to do if those sketches are so widely available.

And I'm not interested in a larger version of what Dennis has. I want a legit police sketch, complete with the circumstances that prompted the drawing. You know, like all the other legit sketches include.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:32 pm:   

Tom, what does Dennis have to do with any of this? and I never made the claim that I could produce one via e-mail. I have noticed that you seemingly avoid the important and relevant parts of the messages and only respond to what you want to. Your psuedo-arrogant writing style may get by with some of these so-called researchers....but you can spare me....this is not a contest nor is it a tit-for-tat forum....I think the purpose of this board should be for education and cordial correspondance. If you would like to see the composite, I can arrange for you to see it in person.....you do not have to try and insult me by implying that I would try to blow up a copy.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:12 pm:   

Exiled wrote:

Tom, regardless of your "merely an interpretation" theory on the Sonoma composite, it was still used by law enforcement and is not much different than the original. The FBI routinely re-creates witness composites if they feel they can get a more accurate detail of the suspect.

The Sonoma sketch is an artist's interpretation of an artist's interpretation, and it doesn't look anything like the SF composite. And in order to recreate a composite, an artist would have the actual eyewitnesses there in order to do so (and that was already done in 1969, which is why we have 2 composites out of SFPD).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   

Exiled, I am one of those so called researchers. Can you mail me a copy of any of those compos?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:01 pm:   

What does Dennis have to do with any of this? Exiled, there are two photos available of Jack's likeness as compared to Zodiac sketches, and both are on the website of Dennis Kaufman as you well know. Didn't you ask "Other than Tarrance, what other suspects bare such a striking resemblence to the composites..."? Plural. And since Jack looks nothing like the Berryessa sketch, you obviously must mean the Sonoma sketch. Now, so far you've argued that the Sonoma sketch is legit, but you haven't given details, such as why it was drawn, who the eyewitness was, etc. Unless you are going to offer detail, this is pointless and you don't exactly look like you have the info to back up your claim.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   

Exiled wrote:
"I know that you already know this but; it (Sonoma sketch) was distributed to other LE agencies....but I'm not why it is even relevant...sometimes I think you guys just like to nit-pick and debate for the sake of an arguement."

Exiled, if you have proof the sketch is a legit police composite, please post it. Based on what you've stated about its availability, it should be easy enough to do. And if you think I'm nit-picking, you need to get used to it, because at this board we tend to expect people to back up their claims when they go against what is thought to be fact. And like it or not, that Sonoma sketch is thought to be nothing but the doodling of a detective. Nothing more, nothing less. So by all means, prove me wrong and I'll admit it right here.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   

Greygost wrote: "I don't believe there were any police sketches/composites of Zodiac wearing glasses until after Paul Stine's murder."

I was just trying to point out that there in fact was a sketch- and a very vital one- that showed the Zodiac did indeed wear glasses before the Stine murder.

Greygost wrote: "It's true the above shows glasses as the other famous sketch of Z in his "action" pose with hood and drawn pistol probably does also. I'm not sure of the value of those sketches as identifiers though, lol."

Actually, Greygost, the Lake Berryessa sketch would be extremely valuable in identifying The Zodiac. Not that you'd likely see him strolling down the street in his "villain" getup. But any suspect who was searched that had any of the items (either in their car, home, etc.) in that sketch would be highly implicated as the culprit. Especially if they found the 4-pointed hood; the "bib" with the embroidered Zodiac logo, or the long-bladed knife with the homemade handle.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   

Here's what I'd like answered about the Sonoma composite:

* When was it drawn?
* Who was the artist?
* What was the crime?
* When did the crime occur?
* Who was the witness?
* What is the case number?
* How was it determined to be Zodiac?

If it's an actual police composite drawing, that info would be included with it.

I asked Dennis those same questions a few years ago when he started claiming it was a legit composite. Obviously, he never answered the questions.

There's a passage in the blue book where the author claims a woman in Santa Rosa got accosted at a stop light and a composite sketch was made. I have a feeling Dennis assumed the Sonoma sketch was that sketch. And, since it was mentioned in a Zodiac book, the incident must have been the work of the Zodiac.

That's flimsy reasoning.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:49 pm:   

Hi-

Don Striepke drew it but he is deceased. I called one of his relatives asking about the sketch a long time ago and was so informed. It is not, to my knowledge, based on an interview with anyone and I have no idea why he felt it would contribute anything but "thread fodder" to the investigation. ;)

Mike
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   

Gee, I'm almost sorry I started this donnybrook for bringing up the Sonoma drawing again.

Vscantu:

I agree anyone found with the hood, bib, logo, etc. would have some explaining to do. My comment was on facial composites (or sketches, as the Sonoma example is apparently not a true composite) , the glasses, and the value and/or likelihood in connecting a suspect with glasses to the Zodiac because of a sketch prior to the Stine murder. Note the date in the sketch's lower right hand corner. It's 10/24/69, some thirteen days after Stine's murder. This leads me to believe that this sketch is either a rehash or an outright copy of Napa County's product by SFPD. This makes it unlikely in my mind that SF patrol officers (or investigators for that matter) were exposed to a sketch of Z with glasses before Stine was killed. Let's not forget that SFPD wasn't looking for Zodiac anyway on the night was Stine killed. They were looking for the brutal perpetrator of a cabbie robbery-murder. It wasn't until the Chronicle got the bloody swatch from Stine's shirt in the mail a couple of days later that everyone realized Zodiac had come to town.

Perhaps someone on the board can clarify the provenance of the 10/24/69 sketch. I've looked but can't come up with anything. When exactly was it distributed, and by whom?

Cheers,

Bernie
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:55 pm:   

Mike, my questions were what I'd want to know if it was a legit composite, as Exiled has claimed.

I've seen several images of it and there's not so much as a phone number to be found. Yeah, ok...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nancydrew
Username: Nancydrew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:04 pm:   

lol tom you read my mind. i just checked ebay for wanted posters and they all had data/text attached to them, like the suspects description, case#, dates, contact info, etc. i didn't see one that just had a face shot and nothing else. so, if it is real than exiled can probably give us that info.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:03 pm:   

Tom, I never said that the "Sonoma composite" was a legitimate composite...YOU said that I did,(while I did refer to it as the Sonoma composite like everyone else does) It is in fact a rendetion of a previous composite...I said that it was shared(used) by other LE agencies and it was...Probably shared within the various individual dept.'s to supplement the original composite and other sketchings....Sorry man but I'm not the one who needs to get their facts straight. If your going to quote me(or accuse), you better be right the first time.....By the way, is anyone on here a Skip-tracer, P.I., or better yet, LE(active or retired)?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:17 pm:   

Exiled, if that drawing is exactly what we said it was, who cares if Terrence resembles it? It wasn't the work of a Zodiac witness. I'm sure I could draw a version of the sketch that makes Zodiac look like Sammy Davis jr.

Just curious: What did these other agencies use it for? Was it posted for the public to see? Was it hanging next to the coffee machine? Was it used for darts?

Sorry, but you've given us nothing to believe the Sonoma sketch wasn't exactly what three independant researchers at this website said it was: The doodling of a detective. And as such, it doesn't matter who resembles it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:28 pm:   

By the way, Exiled, us "so-called researchers" know that the SF composite was created from the statements of the teen witnesses and NOT from the police officers. Therefore, your earlier comments are puzzling indeed. (Odd that the officers didn't contribute to a sketch since they're always perfect witnesses with total recall, photographic memories and beyond reproach.)

Also, you wrote:
"that was 2nd hand info from Bryan Hartnell who as you know had a difficult time with his hospital interview and like Mr. Mageau has since changed his account of the incident on at least 2 occasions..."

How can it be a second-hand account if he was there getting stabbed by Zodiac? Also, how did he change his story? It must be a big change to compare him to Mageau.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 1:30 am:   

Could it be from a boy who received a ride from a man, about the time of the Lake B murders ? I read the story, and the boy said that the man turned off the radio as soon as something came on about the stabbings, and he tossed what look like a knife in his back seat. Later that evening the boy saw the same man looking in his window. That happened in Sonoma,I was with Ed when I read it, I am not sure if we were in Santa Rosa or S.F. when I found it. I think that drawing is pretty close to the S.F. composite.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 2:09 am:   

Tom, as far as Hartnell is concerned; I was responding to one of your posts where I thought you wrote that the female LB witness described a man with a round face, which I interpreted as Cecelia Sheperd....what you actually said was "female witnesses", refering to the PUC students....totally my mistake. The 2nd hand info from Hartnell would have been from his account of the attacks where I think that he later told a reporter what sheperd decribed to him when the suspicious suspect was spying on/or walking toward them....but that really doesn't apply because of my goof. As far as the rendition/composite is concerned, I called 2 former LE officials to find out for sure, one could not remeber the drawing at all, but the other one confirmed that indeed it was used by LE agencies for internal use only(in other words, for cops not the public)....and as you know, alot has changed since the first time I made my initial posts.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 2:14 am:   

No problem, Toney.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 2:28 am:   

Toney, I do think you've done a great job of trying to take a fresh approach to a possible Zodiac suspect. However, I think your effort and enthusiasm -- not to mention the input you've likely received from the proponents of that suspect -- may have clouded your judgement a tad.

Just my opinion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 3:11 am:   

Tom, regarding the actual SF composite,
you wrote: "By the way, Exiled, us "so-called researchers" know that the SF composite was created from the statements of the teen witnesses and NOT from the police officers."
You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, those teen witnesses were to far away to give a credible/detailed description of the suspects face. Secondly, to confirm what I already knew, I called every possible source available to me....some of these people you know, they all said the same thing, the SF composite was created from the 2 patrolmen's facial description of the suspect. Also, I refer you to pages 78 and 79 of "This is the Zodiac speaking" by M. Kelleher and D. Van Nuys.

Look, as private citizens with no LE experience or no private investigative background, I am truly impressed with your overall knowledge and dedication to this case, without people like you, the public would have little or no way to keep up with all of this. I commend all of you.

However, sometimes, some people with strong opinions can, over time, unwittingly allow those opinions to eventually fade into what they perceive as fact.

Now I have made some mistakes on my previous posts on this mess. board, but I am not afraid to admit if and when I am wrong or mistaken, and if I legitimately offend anyone, I will always apologize....I expect the same from anyone else, in this case it happens to be you Tom...to the best of my knowledge, I believe that I am correct and I have had my assumptions confirmed by others who are more than familiar with this topic.

I fully expect you(Tom) to man-up and take responsibilty for your mistake....I am in no way trying to "call you out" or be disrespectful to you or anyone else, but this is a chance to prove to alot of people who consider you to be arrogant and biased that you are not only fair(and I think that you are), but that you have the ability to admit when you are wrong.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 3:17 am:   

Tom, I appreciate your comments and I respect your opinions even if they differ from mine.

My thoughts and opinions are frequently clouded....I'm trying to do something about it...lol

By the way, were you ever on a debate team, because your pretty good at it, wether I think your right or wrong.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 5:54 am:   

I just noticed something: The "Zodiac portrait" on the cover of "Zodiac Unmasked" is a mix of the 'Sonoma' drawing & the S.F. police sketch. It's the top half of the 'Sonoma Zodiac' (LOL) wearing the glasses from the S.F. one. How bogus.

Tom wrote:

"Here's what I'd like answered about the Sonoma composite:

* "When was it drawn?
* Who was the artist?
* What was the crime?
* When did the crime occur?
* Who was the witness?
* What is the case number?
* How was it determined to be Zodiac?"

I think that's hilarious. One of the foremost Zodiac researchers in the world (Tom) still has these extremely basic questions (like the rest of us) on a supposed "drawing of the Zodiac" a full 4 years after Graysmith saw fit to plaster it on the cover of his "Zodiac Unmasked" book!

Why the hell did he use such a farce of a drawing for his bookcover? Just goes to the credibility (or lack thereof) of the book itself.

And "Kenny Kilgore", alias Dennis Kaufman, who uses it at the top of his web site http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/ to show that his stepfather was The Zodiac! LOL
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:40 am:   

Hi-

I think that the Striepke composite is the least reliable of the Z sketches. It is poetic justice that Graysmith used it on the cover of his book. ;)

Don Fouke has repeatedly said that he did not sit down with a sketch artist. The two sketches are based on the descriptions made by the kids on different days.

Fouke and the kids both saw Z at about the same distance, maybe 55-60 feet. (Fouke was in the intersection of Maple and Jackson and Z was near some steps leading to a home on the north side of Jackson Street.) Fouke saw him under much worse general lighting conditions (but did catch him in his headlights) and for only a brief moment.

Mike
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 7:13 am:   

This question is for Tom, but anyone else's opinion/comments are certainly welcome; one of the major hurdles I have had trying to get corroborated info or to confirm something that I believe is fact, is that when I mention this site they clam up and if they have already given me info or confirmed my info, they ask to not be mentioned by name.

Now I can understand to a certain degree, LE and PI's can be very secretive and selective about shareing info or corroborateing someone else's info....but when it comes to this case and the handful of the related websites they(almost all of them) are down-right paranoid(and if any of them are on here, I'm not pointing any fingers) at least to me...thus far anyway.

It is extremely frustrating to try and either get info or have yours confirmed....actually, getting the info has been fairly easy, but no one wants their names or theories posted on the web.

Any thoughts?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 8:32 am:   

Exiled, I think they fear it will unleash a veritable tidal wave of kooks. They don't want every Tom (sorry), Dick and Harry burning up their phone lines with follow-ups.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 8:53 am:   

Looking at the website, I've concluded that the only item that really relates to the Zodiac is the court date in San Jose in 1971, where Tarrance would have had to pass through Pleasanton on his way back to Tahoe around the time of the Pines Card.

The handwriting is a real stretch. Some of the characters are drawn the same, but there are marked differences in general character formation; the "color" of the text is completely different, and Tarrance consistently confuses upper-case letters for lower-case ones--those are all facets of his writing that would have to be adjusted in producing a disguised hand that looks like Zodiac's; intrinsics that aren't generally considered when performing such disguise.

But the biggest missing piece is motive. I would suspect that anyone having a suspect would be able to provide a compelling similarity in motive--as well as the psychological attributes relating to that motive--for murder. Tarrance seems to have displayed some elements of a nasty disposition, and was actually arrested for poaching--big deal! The fact that Kaufman felt obliged to produce his cock-and-bull account of Tarrance being the "phantom killer of Texarkana" (or whatever it was) speaks volumes here.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 9:29 am:   

Douglas oswell, The only things that I could confirm about Jack Tarrance is that his property in Texas was raided by LE for a meth-lab that his daughter created in what was described as a tool shed....LE confiscated some personal items of Jacks even though he was innocent of any wrong doing pertaining to the bust.

He was also suspected in the disapearance of a local Texas woman and when authorities found her body 5 months later...naturally they(LE) suspected his involvement....But, from what I gathered they had other suspects that were of higher priority.

Dennis(Kaufman), told me about this and thus far it is the only thing that I can confirm.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 9:37 am:   

Thank you Warren, actually alot these people/sources I know and have a good repore with them. My Guess, so far, is that maybe in the past somebody said something or posted info that they were not supposed to.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   

Exiled, as Mike_R posted above, Fouke has said over and over again that he did not help with the composites. Meanwhile, the teen witnesses have stated they did help with the composites.

Now, before you even think about hinting that Fouke either didn't really say it, or he only told that story because we're amateur researchers, the fact is Fouke was interviewed by more than one person, including a retired police officer, and I do believe it's on tape.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   

Exiled wrote:
"one of the major hurdles I have had trying to get corroborated info or to confirm something that I believe is fact, is that when I mention this site they clam up and if they have already given me info or confirmed my info, they ask to not be mentioned by name."

Are these the same sources who told you the SFPD composites were the work of Fouke and/or his partner? If I were them, I wouldn't want to be named, either.

Unfortunately, there are many law-enforcement types (in California especially) who aren't going to admit they have no actual knowledge of a high-profile case like the Zodiac. So, they talk out of turn to look important, get quoted at a site like this, and end up appearing foolish.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   

By the way, Exiled, the composites of Zodiac were prepared weeks before Fouke came forward with his description. So, unless the artist was a psychic, your sources should be given the boot.

You can see Fouke's initial report right here.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Exiled
Username: Exiled

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 4:59 pm:   

Well some of my sources happen to be yours too and they must be lying to everyone!....this is really odd...once again I will refer you to pages 78 and 79 in the king of all Zodiac books, "This is the Zodiac speaking" by M. Kelleher and D. Van Nuys. Thats all I can really do for now until one of these sources agrees to step up to the plate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 5:32 pm:   

It's not a bad book, but I'd hardly call it the "king of all Zodiac books." That is, unless it wins the accolade by default.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stew
Username: Stew

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:29 pm:   

I like the book for adding value but I wish Kelleher had:

1. Used all the evidence, rather than just Z's letters, to judge his psychological profile.

2. Used a psychologist who majored in criminal profiling (preferably currently in that field but hasn't looked at the Zodiac case yet). With due respect to Dr. van Nuys, he did what seemed to be a very good professional job that gave a different perspective from the norm. He seemed to assume everything Z wrote was from the heart though, something that psychopaths are notorious for not doing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:39 pm:   

I agree with Doug. Like all Zodiac books, the Kelleher/Van Nuys offering draws strong opinions from all sides and incidentally has its own thread under "Zodiac Books."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 7:51 pm:   

Let's continue this discussion here.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration