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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 5:25 pm:   

I'm sure this has come and gone as a suspect-subject, but what are the facts that rule out any BTK-Zodiac connection? The first BTK killing was in '74 (in his courtroom confession, he said he'd "never strangled someone before"), and he was a prolific letter writer, etc. He even looks like the Zodiac composite.
Tom, you hosted the Catch BTK site. Is there a FAQ eliminating him?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 5:46 pm:   

He was at Tachikawa air Base near Tokyo, Japan from July 1968 to August 1970.
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Davidmm
Username: Davidmm

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:02 pm:   

Ah, there ya go. I knew there had to be something to eliminate him as a Zuspect.

(He didn't see The Mikado while he was over there, was he?)
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Mike_r
Username: Mike_r

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:07 pm:   

Hi-

I always felt that BTK's "plea for publicity" in 1978 ("How many do I have to kill before I get a name in the paper or some national attention?") effectively ruled him out as a Z suspect. By 1978, Zodiac certainly knew how to achieve both of those goals.

Mike
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:24 pm:   

He did some of the things that Zodiac did, but with nowhere near the flair and sophistication, or the obvious intelligence. And he was a sexual sadist (what I like to refer to as a "recreational" killer), which Zodiac clearly was not.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:30 pm:   

There was a time when I actually suspected BTK and Z were one and the same. Rader killed the Otero family exactly two weeks before Z appears to bid "farewell" in his Exorcist letter and abandon his name and symbol. SFPD then abruptly closes its Zodiac investigation two weeks after BTK returns in 2004. I still believe that Rader specifically emulated Z (and perhaps others under the influence of Factor X) for reasons I've expressed to Tom and Ed.

I think it is pretty clear that Rader is not Z for the reasons everyone mentions but I'd still like to hear an official ruling on this. Presumably, someone in the Air Force based in Japan would have to travel through California at some point to leave and return to the U.S. and perhaps on leave. I believe he did spend some time in CA and his parents were married in San Diego.

I have to imagine he has been officially eliminated as a suspect through either the timing or DNA but, given Wichita P.D.'s penchant for ignoring cold cases, I'd like to hear how he was eliminated.
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Greygost
Username: Greygost

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   

Deoxys

He may have traveled that way, but not necessarily. The primary Air Force route between the States and Japan back then was via Anchorage, Alaska out of McChord AFB WA. It's shorter than any CA route which would have necessitated stopping in Hawaii. I'm not aware of any direct flights back then. Limitations on airliners in the 60's and 70's. The Alaska route is how I got to RVN in 1970 and back home in 1971.

Bernie
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:57 pm:   

I'm 99% sure that Zodiac's DNA and fingerprints are in national databases. I'm 100% sure Rader's are as well. No match.

Also, I can recall about two and a half years ago the Wichita police asking me about Zodiac and who they could contact at SFPD...
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:05 am:   

There was actually a time when I thought Rader to be a viable suspect in the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders, which I unequivocally believe to be the work of someone or someones other than Zodiac. Certainly, parallels can be drawn between these homicides and Rader's crimes - both series incorporated elements of sexual sadism and bondage. All the hype simmered down, though, when I discovered that he was nowhere near California at the time of the killings.
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Kevin
Username: Kevin

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 4:55 am:   

One thing that has certainly changed with both BTK and the green river killings is the notion that serial killers were loners who could not possibly be capable of having a woman of their own. Could Z have had a wife? Yes, it's possible.
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Sanfranguns
Username: Sanfranguns

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 2:09 pm:   

It's totally possible. And I'd just like to say that I really miss the catchbtk.com site. It was a very compelling case and checking in on that site as things progressed up until the arrest was very exciting in a way. I was hoping tom would keep it up for a while and follow the after effects of the case, but I can totally appreciate why he took it down - that and this had to be a lot of work...
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:37 pm:   

I think I linked it once by going way back in the Newscenter (updates) on this site.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:39 pm:   

It's not down as far as I know.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   

No, CatchBTK.com is still up alright - everything except the HUGE message board, which was fantastic. But luckily I still have it, as I bought the CD-ROM from Tom when it was on sale. It's a great collector's piece. Not sure if it is still for sale.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 9:59 pm:   

At one time I too thought BTK could be Zodiac moved to Kansas from California. The more I knew the less likely it seemed. Since I have connections to Kansas and live much closer I really got into the BTK case (visiting all the crimes scenes etc. before he was caught). I am convinced that rader was not Zodiac. I agree he had read of the case and copied some of the Zodiac style (sending letters, writing poetry, etc) but that is the extent.
If Tom is still selling the CD rom of the catchbtk site I have it and highly recommend it.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 4:23 am:   

I didn't see the CatchBTK.com CD-ROM for sale on the BTK site. But again, the message board was extremely interesting & a great historical record.

How 'bout it, Tom. A 'fire sale' of your BTK CD-ROM?
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 12:03 pm:   

I know how many of you feel about psycics, hell, Im not sure how to feel about them. But, for what its worth, this was interesting none-the-less.

I cannot recall if it was the chatroom on Catch BTK or this one, but there was a time that the psycic from overseas, who profiled the BTK crimes, was online and I asked him if he thought BTK and Z were the same. He said "Absolutely not."
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 5:17 pm:   

Just want to point out, that even if he was stationed near Tokyo during that time period, he could still have gotten back to the Bay area, delivering bodies and wounded, working on missle launch sites and radar, or just plain R&R. I think he should be asked specific questions in that regard, or further examine his military records.
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Flashram
Username: Flashram

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 5:54 pm:   

I seriously doubt any kind of connection here, other than normal coincidences. The main difference for me is that Rader left semen all over the place. I think the whole "how many people.." line was a mere Z rip-off.

Rader (and Ridgway) broke the mold on the typical profile, that's for sure. Until it was discovered he had been here in Wichita the whole time, most believed one could not stop killing on their own. (of course you all know that)
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 6:17 pm:   

There are major differences betwen the Zodiac and Rader. A few would be home invasion and prolonged physical contact; a firearm used a control device except at the Bright scene and rope used as the murder weapon ninety percent of the time is also a large departure from the firearms Zodiac used as murder weapons seventy-five percent of the time.

You're right, too, that an intruder who leaves DNA in a highly untraditional way, with no direct assault upon the women, is one odd bird.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 1:42 am:   

Some people just have no respect for tradition.
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Sanfranguns
Username: Sanfranguns

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   

Yeah - I meant the message board....sorry
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 4:12 pm:   

SanFran, it was a great board; I suspect that Tom will always be proud of it and no one can convince me it didn't play a part in Rader's apprehension.

You're right in your earlier post regarding effort. Early on, Tom was on a different site, maybe the one associated with a Kansas paper but I really don't remember. Anyway, I never saw one person take so much abuse for trying to promote his catchbtk.com site. I still don't understand how Tom lacks ulcers. Sorry to veer off track but those memories came back to me in a hurry.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 7:48 am:   

That was the Kansas.com board for the Kansas paper. Tom got incredible grief, which I'm sure he relished, and dished it out better than anybody to the loons on that board (and they were amateur loons to boot). He totally destroyed some candlemaking troll who tried to dominate the board. He inspired me to become the unreadable, inscrutable, whiskey swilling "OldSowBreath".
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 8:03 am:   

And, for what it's worth, several of the more astute posters on that board believed that Rader posted. It was just after they had arrested Roger Valadez as possibly BTK on some failure to clean property warrants. I made some poorly humorous comment about how he should be grateful, etc. and then this person posts immediatly after me something along the lines of:

"Clean up your property people. Mow your damn lawns, don't waste the taxpayers money, take care of your rooves", Your home is your biggest investment. If the cops weren't out running speed traps" etc, etc. It had typical Rader mispellings and just was weird coming out of nowhere like that. The person's handle was "Btkisdum" or something like that and he/she posted all of 2 or 3 times, I think. I remembered it at the time because it really wasn't on the point of the thread and followed my post and I thought, "Geez, some grumpy old man." It was weird and I never forgot it. But I didn't dream that it might have been from BTK, and of course, this is long before we learned about the compliance officer from Park City.
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Sanfranguns
Username: Sanfranguns

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:39 pm:   

I totally believe Radar posted. It actually really creeped me out when I heard about that
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   

It's possible he posted on the catchBTK.com message board too. Someone calling him/herself "Ruth Rader" posted once, as did someone named Kerri/Kerry, who sounded suspiciously like Rader's daughter... and considering the apparent Z references in his crimes and letters, it would seem that he'd been lurking here on this board for years as well...
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:23 pm:   

True, Ed, though I don't remember Ruth Rader. WPD was convinced that he did not post on any board, but I think it's a sure bet that he did, or at least lurk on them.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   

Warren, where does Doug Rader from the Astros fit in? Any connection?
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 9:03 pm:   

I personally believe that Rader posted on the America's Most Wanted message board. I think the whole board has been erased now. But I remember a couple of months before Rader was busted, they had a thread reserved for BTK himself to post. At the time everyone was convinced that BTK was a low-life degenerate single man. He was certainly a totally perverted loner and anti-social in the extreme.

A person posted this (at the time) ridiculous statement, that he dressed nicely, was frequenting the same grocery stores as everyone, dining at the finest restaurants, playing golf on nice courses, and "even babysitting your kids."

Not only could Rader actually have babysat for other families, but he was in effect a babysitter for many families' sons in the role of boyscout leader. Remember, during one of the overnight boyscout campouts was when he snuck out & killed his neighboor, Marine Hedge.

Spooky stuff.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 9:30 pm:   

Thankfully one thing he never got to post was bail.
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 1:58 pm:   

I got to looking at the catchbtk.com site for the first time in awhile and this is from the last news update Tom posted:

Aug. 12, 2005 --
While no official statement has yet been given by authorities, my sources close to the BTK investigation have confirmed that Dennis Rader posted numerous times at the catchBTK.com Message Board in the months prior to his arrest.

Makes you woinder how many people say there and discussed the case with Rader on the message board. Makes me wonder if Z (if he is still alive) keeps track of this board, or even posts.
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:11 pm:   

Hurm.
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Sanfranguns
Username: Sanfranguns

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:46 pm:   

If Z is still alive and has any access to computers you can bet he's at least checking the boards out. How many of you have googled your name to see what comes up? Exactly...

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