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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 4:29 am:   

The Sierra Club card of March 22, 1971, was intercepted by a US postal agent before reaching its destination, which was San Francisco Chronicle (http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/connect.html). The card was addressed to investigative reporter Paul Avery.

This Zodiacally challenged correspondence was made by using the graphic portion of an advertisement for Forest Pines condominiums near Lake Tahoe (http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/Pines.html).

Let us share our civil views on authenticity of this oddly paste-up card.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:16 am:   

Doug, I thank you for your quick reply. For a moment, I thought, "Oh, no! Not another Zodiacally challenged card?" It was in RG's Zodiac book that I saw the reproduction of this Sierra Club card for the first time.

I had to create this thread to discuss your observation of punch-hole border for this Sierra Club card. However, a little background info is also helpful as we go along.

The gif file of this card which is posted at this web site is a closely cropped image (http://www.zodiackiller.com/PinesCard.html). Thus, one will not be able to tell the existence of a possible punch-hole border.

However, the gif file image posted at Jake Wart's site permitted me to create a "red fill" gif image in order to compare it with a "red fill" gif image of the original graphic used in Forest Pines advertisement (http://groups.msn.com/ZodiacNetwork/zodiacletters. msnw?Page=1). Jake's source for this image is RG's Zodiac.

As you can see, certain subtle graphic modifications were made to the lifted graphic once it appeared in the Sierra Club card.

In my opinion, without having access to either the original paste-up card or a high resolution print of this card made against a red backdrop, it is nearly impossible to conclude that this card has a punch-hole border.

After comparing the red fill images, do you agree?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 6:42 am:   

I know I've seen it with the punch-hole border, but for the life of me I can't seem to find the image anywhere. Maybe it's in the Graysmith book. Until we can either confirm or deny it, I wouldn't predicate any elaborate theories on the existence of a punch-hole border.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:11 am:   

Doug, if you click on the second link in the first post, then you can see the card's image from RG's Zodiac.

Here is another link for RG's version: http://members.aol.com/ZSpeaking/pines.html

I have used RG's version to come up with the red fill graphic.

We need to find SFPD's version now.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:48 am:   

Baba, you can very easily see the "scalloped" appearance on the top outside of the RG version. Just as an experiment I downloaded that version, replaced the black areas with red, then made two duplicates of the punch hole in the top right section, where the address line was on the front. The duplicate holes line up perfectly over the scalloped areas in the card.
pines_card
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:55 am:   

I've always thought the punch holes (and I saw them somewhere also)added a certain plus factor towards it being authentic, but, wasn't there also a cut and paste card with punch holes from another famous murder? Black Dahlia, maybe?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:04 am:   

This is the first time I noticed the serrated edge on the top of this card. There is another one serrated the whole was around.
I always thought the idea of that was to mimic a stamp!
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:19 am:   

Oops, my mistake. I think I was confusing the address side of this card as being a different one.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:24 am:   

It does look like the edge of a stamp. I wonder what the reasoning might have been behind the hole in the upper right?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:37 am:   

I've wondered long and hard about that one.
Perhaps it was meant to be superimposed over some other card or meant to reinforce the message to literally "peek through the pines" to the other side!
Maybe we should be looking at this in conjunction with the card that had 13 punched holes.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:44 am:   

Then again, if the reason to serrate the edge was to mimic a stamp, perhaps it was meant to be symbolic of taking the stamp at more than face value!
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 1:55 pm:   

Information here tells us that the 'Sierra Club postcard' was a forgery. While I do not doubt Tom or his source, the supply of additional details would do wonders to shed more light on the issue.
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:00 pm:   

This card as reproduced in Howard Davis's book shows an additional border beyond the "serrated" edge. It looks like crossed sticks at the corners of the drawing. There is no hint of punch holes in the card as it is shown. On Howard's site the front of the card is pictured and there is a hand drawn "serrated" border. FWIW
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   

Harvey Hines told me that Dave Toschi had admitted to faking it. Not sure if it's true, but that's what Hines told me.
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Nachtsider
Username: Nachtsider

Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:16 pm:   

The same Harvey Hines who threatenend you over the telephone and made Kathy Johns pick her abductor out of a photo lineup containing only images of Lawrence Kane? My faith in your ability as a researcher will always remain unshaken, Tom, but I feel that in my earlier statement, I may have misjudged your source...
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:42 pm:   

I don't believe that's the kind of thing Hines would make up. After all, he could easily link Kane to that card.

I can see Hines lying to make Kane appear to be a stronger suspect, but not to weaken him.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:03 pm:   

A friend I once knew told me that his sister told him that a drunk she knew told her that a bartender that he used to cadge drinks from forged it.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:08 pm:   

Tom, with bad blood between you and Harvey Hines, suppose he just decides to come out and deny your statment of him making such a bizzare accusation about Toschi forging Sierra Club card?

Are you not going to look like the guy who is making things up as you go on whenever it might help your agenda? Do not get me wrong. I have one too. For years, it has been bannered as: "Help me to expose Zodiac Network of Secret Societies!" I am just not familiar with yours.

My position is this that why come up with such statements while you do not have anything to back it up one way or another?

In fact, so far, you are the only webmaster who had decided to closely crop the image of this Sierra Club card in a way in order to hide the existence of such an alleged punch-hole border. For sure, it did fool me for the past two years or so. Did anyone rush out there and accuse you of selective presentation of a Zodiacally challenged corespondence? No.

I started this thread just to find out more about the physical appearance of this Zodiacally challenged card. So far, we are only in the initial phase of this inquiry. No one has made a claim that it was written by Zodiac or Larry Kane. No one has linked it to mysterious disappearance of Donna Ann Lass yet.

When I am ready, I am perfectly capable of delivering my piece without worrying about nasty remarks from Ed in Vallejo or funny quips from Warren in Dallas. Or, even worse, facing your spinach ultimatums of getting banned from the message board. You know, I have a life too.

So what is the reason for bombarding the floor with nervous flacks when there is nothing worth hitting for? Did I miss anything while I was away?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   

Well, Hines did speak with Toschi back in the 1980s or so, that much is true. And, Hines did tell me that story in 1999.

I have a hard time believing Toschi would admit to such a thing, but I also can't imagine Hines lying to weaken the alleged links to Kane.

In any event, I never stated that Toschi's alleged confession was true; I merely documented the claim.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:16 pm:   

"In 1999 a retired detective revealed to me that a former Zodiac investigator had admitted to forging the Lass postcard."

The only thing in error is that Hines wasn't a detective, but I believe I was trying to keep his identity a secret. Of course, that was pre-threats and now I don't care about maintaining a relationship with him.

Baba, I couldn't care less if he denies it, because it's not all that important anyway. Besides, I'm sure Toschi would deny it, too.

Bottom line is there's no reason to believe that postcard was a legit Zodiac document. The newspapers received countless such attempts to deceive. Are we to believe everything?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:18 pm:   

"Or, even worse, facing your spinach ultimatums of getting banned from the message board."

Baba, I haven't instigated any confrontations with you since you rejoined the message board, so I don't understand the bad attitude. However, it's getting quite tiresome.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:40 pm:   

From Harvey Hines report at page 6 paragraph 17, we have:

"On March 21, 1971, the Zodiac mailed a postcard claiming his 12th victim in Lake Tahoe area."

For a moment, let us go with he-said-you-heard claim of Toschi forging Sierra Club card. If this claim is verified by Harvey Hines himself, then am I not entitled to suspect that Toschi was also a part of the fan-mail plot in order to eventually frame Robert Graysmith for Zodiac's next taunting lettter because RG was the best sitting duck in San Fran Bay area with his checkered past? A wounded tiger will even chew his own paw in order to unchain himself to lash back at his enemy. You should listen to Toschi sometimes when he yaps about Zodiac.

Harvey Hines might even know more but he is not going to squeel until his squeezed hard.

Tom, it is still Valentine's Day. This is the best time to go and make it good with Harvey before its too late.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:53 pm:   

Tom, as usual, you asked for it, you got it. here it is:

Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
So, if namecalling occurs, I shouldn't try and stop it? Had I not warned Ed to stop, you'd be upset over that. Seems I'm damned either way with you, Baba.

If you don't start honoring our agreement about creating and posting in your own thread, you will no longer have an account. Now, before you decide to interpret that as me attempting to stop you from expressing your theory, ask yourself why I allowed you a password in the first place.


I call that an spinach ultimatum. You made it just two days ago.

Tom, I am not popeye the sailor man. I never cared that much for spinach. So let's get along long enough to bring this Z case to a partial end so we can all go home.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   

If you want quotes Baba, go back further for the posts where you jumped down my throat for no reason. Oh well.

I don't have any intention of wasting more time on this. There's simply no evidence the postcard was from the Zodiac, regardless of what Hines or anyone else says. I have eyes and I can see it for myself.

There were a million hoax attempts.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 6:09 pm:   

For what it's worth, I think there's plenty of information to indicate that Zodiac wrote the Pines Card. But I haven't got time for it right now, so I'll have to save it for a later date.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 6:37 pm:   

He may well have, Doug. But unless DNA can be extracted that matches the current profile, there's no way to know.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 7:24 pm:   

Tom, current profile? Profile of what?

Is there any possible way to get copies of these alleged current DNA profiles so we can see what you are talking about? So we can stop wasting our times here at this message board typing lines starting with if's, but's, what if's, and whatnot?

That would be a real boost for the rest of us. Thank you.
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 7:49 pm:   

DNA profile, Baba. There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac, or at least of whomever licked the stamp on a confirmed Zodiac letter.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:45 pm:   

Thank you, Tom.

All along I should have guessed that Zodiac was just mad enough to pull his own killings, dumb enough to do his own licking, but yet he was smart enough to elude the entire police establishment in the state of California.

Tom, ask someone in SFPD, if the DNA found under the stamp matches the DNA found under the envelope's flap?

Zodiac lived for the thrill of needling the blue meanies any which way he could.

Just give me the word and I will crack "red hair" here in 7 steps by applying mathemagic. Or, I can do "punch hole" for you in 6 steps. Even better, I can do both just for the hell of it.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:20 pm:   

Sorry, but the Pines card is a fake. Lass vanished in September 1970, and the Pines card says, "sought victim 12." It is a matter of fact that, in the 7-26-1970 letter, Z was claiming 13 victims, so how could Lass have been the 12th victim 2 months later instead of the 14th? The victim count is wrong, so therefore it is a fake.

And yet, the 10-5-1970 card is considered by some to be authentic because it has the correct victim count of 13? Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Regardless, I think both are fakes, and the Pines card, even if it was prepared by Z, still has the incorrect victim count and was probably done in order to throw the cops off his trail by linking him to a crime he didn't commit. We don't even know if a crime was committed! Not only that, what little writing there is on the card could easily have been faked using what had already been published, and even the misspelled "Paul Averly" was mentioned in the story about the Halloween card.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:28 am:   

First off, Ed, you can leave Donna Lass completely out of the picture. That she was involved at all is a matter of complete speculation, as is the notion that "sought Victim 12" must of necessity refer to the correct number in the so-called "victim count."

While it's true that there's no actual authenticating mechanism contained in the card, there are a number of positive factors that work synergistically to suggest the card is a Zodiac production.

First is its relation to the 13-hole and the Halloween Card with its use of a paste-up motif, the misspelling of Avery's name, and the use of an inverted line. The authenticity of the 13-hole is borne out by its correct victim count, the use of the postscript, which is an undoubted Zodiac trait, and the use of the word "crackproof" in the L.A. Times Letter.

Second is the handwriting, which looks pretty close to me.

Third is the use of the equal sign in "att. paul averly = chronicLe." That's another Zodiac trait--using the mathematical symbol to indicate equivalence between things that are non-arithmetical in nature.

Fourth is the incompleteness of the address.

Fifth is an element that should be obvious to anyone who gives the matter much thought, but is often overlooked, which is the highly derivative nature of fakes and forgeries. This is so, because the genuine author will be using the missive to relay some kind of information, while the purpose of the faker is to prove that he's the person whose identity he's faking. If you wanted to fake a letter by Rodney Dangerfield, you wouldn't just write about any old humgrubbedy thing that came to mind, as no doubt Dangerfield did on numerous occasions. You'd have to throw in a couple of allusions to getting no respect, or a joke or two involving your wife and your dog. That's because when Rodney Dangerfield wrote a letter he did it to communicate his thoughts, whereas when you do it, you're doing it to prove your bona fides as Dangerfield. This is why the 1978 and 1987 missives come across as patently bogus, even to the point of using obvious misconceptions as a means of establishing credibility.
There's not much in the Pines Card that's derivative, while it contains a great deal of arcane information whose meaning is known only to its composer. And that's simply not the kind of thing one expects from a faker or forger.

Last, the card is part of a clear continuum that includes the Monticello Card and the Donna Card of late 1974--all bearing the common motif of woods, trees, mountains, hills and snow. If this is a faker, he goes quite a bit out of his way to perpetuate the fakery.

I think, therefore, that even though we can't prove this missive's authenticity to a metaphysical certainty, the pluses far outweigh the minuses within the realm of speculation.

For those not familiar with its contents, here's how the 1987 letter read:

Dear Editor
This is the Zodiac speaking I am
crack proof. Tell herb caen that I
am still here. I have always been here
Tell the blue pigs if want me I will
be driving around on Halloween in my
death machine looking for some kiddies to
run over Cars make nice weapons The
pigs can catch me if they can find
me out there Just like in the
movie The car. tell the kiddies
watch before They cross the streets
on halloween nite. tell Toschi my
new plans
Yours truly :
[Zodiac symbol] guess
VPD 0
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:33 am:   

Doug, nice work.

The word after weapons is misspelled as "ther" in the original letter. Note that extra checkmark r.

Here is a link to see the actual Zodiacally challenged letter of 1987, which was reportedly sent to San Francisco Chronicle.

http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/hoaxes.html
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:13 am:   

Thanks, Baba. I wish I could see a copy of that Monticello Card.
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Bababijan
Username: Bababijan

Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:20 am:   

Doug, I have the same wish.

In the mean time, this is what we have from Sierra Club card:

Sought Victim 12

However, from 21 times letter & code of 1971, we have the writer's claim that he killed "21 times."

From Monticello card of 1971, we have this little juicy tidbit:

Near Monticello Sought Victim 21

Let us look for ways to get a copy of this card.

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