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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   

Since there seems to be a strong interest in possible Zodiac anagrams, here's a good link:

http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:27 pm:   

I have no idea how many anagrams EBEORIETEMETHHPITI generated, but I estimate there were at least 45,000. Here's a few I picked out at random:

BE EIRE THE TIE HIP TOM

BE EIRE THE TIE PHI TOM

BE EIRE THE PIE HIT TOM

BE ERIE PETE HI HIT TOM

BE PEE TITER TOE HI HIM

BE PETE HERMIT TOE HI I

BE PETE THEIR TIME OH I

BE PETE TITHE OMER HI I

BE PETE HERO TIE HIM IT

BE PETE HERO TIME HIT I

BE PETE HER TIE HI I TOM

Tom's name pops up a lot. Since his name also pops up in the 340-cipher, well... "time" also pops up in relation to "Titer," and I don't know if anyone recalls this, but some whacko posted as "John Titor" a few years back on some message board, claiming to be from the future (since we can play with this and make up whatever we want, including dropping and adding whatever letters we want, this is legit). This kinda fits in with Carl and Hunter's German-made time machine... then "tithe" and "omer" are in there too, which supports Larry Kane as Z (he's allegedly Jewish)... and the list goes on.

Can everyone see how futile and ludicrous the very idea is???
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:08 pm:   

I've got it!

I, Hipee, tithe Tom beer. :-)

Now we're all happy!
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:00 pm:   

That is the same idea that I had with the 13-character cypher on the lost message board. I took the mispelled words, replaced it where the sybols were and came up with some hundreds of possibilities, only about a dozen of which made sense. It's definately rediculous, but not impossible that somebody like Z could do this, but it's never been proven.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:38 pm:   

Exactly. It has never been proven. It was an idea, nothing more, that has come to be accepted as fact over the last 37 years. But the fact is, nothing satisfactory has ever been extracted using the anagram idea; all we have are forced "solutions" that work only if you add or subtract whatever letters one wants to or feels like. That damnable yellow book has caused more damage to this case with baseless ideas (anagramming, false cipher solutions, pinning every unsolved murder in the Bay Area on Z and Z killing according to phases of the moon), whacked-out theories (the projector theory, Z stalking Ferrin, Ferrin knowing all the early victims) and outright fabrications (Sully Road, the Phantom Road, Allen at RCC in 1966, Ron Allen and various Vallejo cops at the "painting party," the chase to BRS, and so on).
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:32 am:   

Ed,
Obviously I don't agree (-: but I think we are racing ahead of ourselves here and I need to backtrack a little to at least explain where I am coming from ( I don't know what or who influenced others).
First up it's a case of showing/demonstrating/accepting that something peculiar was going on within the letters in the first place. Regardless of suspect I believe that has been achieved beyond a reasonable doubt.
What started me here was letters 6 through 9 which show a clear anomaly.I've been through this before but it's worth repeating for explanation purposes.
The 6th (Pen and Cipher) is made up of 6 statements, the word "thing" is underlined 6 times,it's followed by 6 exclamation marks and the infamous deleted symbol in the accompanying cipher is 6 in and 6 down from the right hand side

In the 7th, Zodiac claims 7 victims and the letter itself is 7 pages long

The 8th (Belli) Zodiac implies 8 victims and the letter is made up of exactly 8 sentences

In the 9th (The my name is) Zodiac introduces a new symbol that appears to include a Taurus symbol and the number of taurus is 9.

These things do not occur by chance but rather by deliberate design. So regardless what else one believes, it is a legitimate question to ask what's going on here. You can add to that the even increasing victim count (which is bogus) and his choice to deliberately misspell along with other errors and clearly he has some purpose, other than these being a string of comunications that he writes as the mood takes him......
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:43 am:   

There's no doubt Ed that graysmith deserves his criticism but I think you are too quick (respectfully) to hold him to account for everything that's wrong with this case (we'll agree to disagee on that). The idea that anagrams might be at play came from Zodiac himself I suggest, not Graysmith.
He writes a cipher, tells us his name is encoded and then produces same with that added string at the end. While I believe it is filler I also believe it had a secondary purpose.It was/is quite natural/reasonable for people to wonder if he had hidden a clue name right there. I think that's obvious and he knew that. So if you believed that Zodiac even might have included a name or initials or something akin to that( and again it is reasonable to at least wonder about that), by definition it has to be there in anagram form, somewhere as the decoding didn't give it straight out.
Now, it might never be there, but that's not the point, the point is he set it up that way and its a theme he played with.Fair?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:09 am:   

I think you could add to that Ed the "symbol" spelling of Zodiac in the last line of the second cipher.The odds against chance of those symbols aligning by chance are millions to one. Again it's something far better explained by Z playing games here.It will be interesting to see what values these have if the cipher is ever solved.,although it's a little too obvious, but I'll bet there's something to it, perhaps another diversion.

In any case, you are correct, we have seen our fair share of forced solutions here and I am assuming that you include mine among those.
People respect your opinion Ed far more that most on this board . Nothing has been proven as you say but at least it's out there for people to comment. To that end it matters little what either of us think. Hopefully someone will tackle this.There is a clear anomaly relating to Allen regardless of whether it's right or wrong.
Thus far, we can see these forced solutions a mile off and they are easily tackled. Far from being afraid of challenge, I would appreciate if you would take the time to hammer this stuff in detail. If it's wrong it's wrong, so what? At least it would be dealt with and out of the way and it would serve as a good example when set against everything else of this nature for those investigating along these lines.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 9:54 am:   

Off topic a bit but has anyone else ever considered that the remaining symbols at the end of the 3-part cipher might actually be intended as the BEGINNING of the 340 cipher? Since we don't yet have the key to 340, it is impossible to know, of course, but I can definitely imagine Z having the forethought to plan this out.

I think Sean hit on a really important point regarding Z's TEASING with various clews that would appear meaningful but probably aren't. The appearances of the words HER, GOD and ZODAIK in the 340 cipher are good examples of this and Z, in my opinion, clearly ENJOYED providing tantalizing false leads. He, of course, most likely had many symbols to choose from to represent these letters and it would have not been all that difficult to throw in a few "teasers" like this. I tend to view this fascination with confusing/confounding others as a major signature of Z and it is a big reason I'm interested in looking at the person and groups that I am.

I generally agree with Ed regarding the anagramming and other creative solutions I've seen so far. I still think it is worth the effort, of course, to look for clews in the letters but the case will not be solved in this manner.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:26 am:   

I think you have hit on the core of this issue Deoxys, it is quite clear that there are things within these letters that are anomalies in and of themselves,just as outlined above. The spelling of "Zodiac" didn't get there by chance and we could go down the list with various other examples.
That leaves three choices IMO
1.They are legitimate clues
2.Their purpose is to tease/throw us off.
3.They are a mixture.
But at the end of the day they are still clues we have to follow up on, regardless of what we believe.

At least we have the opportunity to try to prove "something" by looking and examining these things.We have no chance if we adopt a position whereby we wipe these away with a sweep of the hand.Sometimes there are a pain in the a** and we can obviuosly see where people try to force the issue, but we could get that one time when things start to make sense.

I have tried starting from the end, if you look "this is the Zodiac" is a perfect fit when aligned with the symbol spelling of Zodiac and I have also tried attributing those values to those symbols throughout the cipher. There just aren't enough to make headway.

Finally,while these thing may not solve the case, they do have the potential to do so or at least help us to concentratethe search in a specific area.Language, like any other evidence leaves fingerprints and footprints when disturbed. if there is enough uncovered then experts can comment on its viability
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:42 am:   

Because you will try to slow down or stop my collecting of slaves for my after life:

1.Before I Die, Them they Piti.

2.Before I ___ Them the Piti.

3.So Spare Me The Piti.

4.Before I Meet My Fate.

5.Before They Meet There Fate.

This is just some ideas I think Z was trying to say, But messed up on his ciphering.
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L2829tad
Username: L2829tad

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:56 am:   

I pity them before they die.....
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   

If one looks closely enough, it looks like he was trying to say "So spare me the pity."

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