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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 8:12 am:   

While the following forms part of a much more comprehensive theory (which may or may be correct),I wanted at this time to share this connection, so at least the baby won't be thrown out with the bathwater.

In looking at the Zodiac envelopes I believe it's fair to say that Zodiac's "stamp of choice"
was the FDR stamp. With one exception, he uses this on 12 of the first 13 envelopes, changing only once.In other words for the first 15 months of the zodiac campaign ,he uses it consistently with only one exception.
In looking at FDR, it's was interesting to note that FDR himself was a famous and lifelong Stamp collector and I quote "even using his office to oversee new design and issues". Of course it can't be said for sure that this formed part of Z's choice, however it is worth considering.
The real point/question here is why did he change or was there a reason for it?
On that score it's interesting to note "when" he changed. Zodiac first changes stamp on the Belli letter, sent on the one true anniversary in this case. That being one year to the day after his first murders out on lake Herman road.
Was there some reason he wanted to mark this anniversary?
Well, not only did he change for the first time but the manner in which he uses these stamps is suspicious. He plasters the envelope with 6 penny stamps, when one alternative (6 or 8 cent stamp would) have sufficed.
His stamp of choice on this occasion was one depicting Thomas jefferson another American president and one which appears to tie into this case in a curious way.
1.Thomas jefferson was well known for his code work and invented many systems.
2.As we have already discovered Zodiac used a copying device on two of the first three envelopes (containing his first major code).
The device used would have been very similar to what's known as a "polygraph", which jefferson was famous for using, even calling it " the best invention ever".
3.Jefferson's home (which he built himself) is known as Monticello. As we know Zodiac's third murder site was right near or at Rancho Monticello. Of course there was also the "Monticello card", albeit unconfirmed as authentic at this point.
4. The first fountain pen can also be traced back to jefferson, in fact the guy who invented the polygraph for jefferson (John Issac Hawkins) also worked on the pen for him.
Zodiac's second major cipher came with the "Pen card", depicting a fountain pen.
5.Probably the greatest coincidence here is that july fourth, is also the day on which jefferson died, same as the day this letter was sent and also the date of Zodiac's second murder at Blue Rock Springs.

So, to re-cap... on the one and only true anniversary in this case, one year to the day after the first murders, Zodiac writes to his attorney, changing stamp for the first time.
He "introduces" us to a person who's anniversary it also happens to be.Well known for his code work, well known for using a device very similar if not identical to a device Zodiac himself used on the first envelopes, who's home just happens to have the same name as Zodiac's third murder scene, all on the date of Zodiac's second murder.
Beyond coincidence?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 10:03 am:   

Following on from this,if these connections by Z were intended,it sets the Belli communication as central to whatever was going on.
1.Belli letter on the anniversary of the first Murder.
2.The inclusion of stine's bloody shirt connects to that murder.
3.Jefferson Anniversary on July 4th links it to BRS.
4.Jeffersons home Monticello connects to the L.B murder.
The connections,I believe, go deeper than that,but for now it's at least something to consider in connecting all Z murders.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 11:52 am:   

Zodiac, the stamp collector. Sean, I like that angle. It fits his profile. Here's something that may be related. Many of Z's letters were post marked from SF. This would give him a reason to be familiar with SF, since he had to go there to mail the letters. He also purchased stamps in blocks or books, as many stamp collectors do. Also, there are 3 post offices in Vallejo that merit scrutiny:
-Santa Clara St. (1 block from my old apartment)
-Amador St.(near Springs, Tenn.St, Tuolumne, and
the sheriffs office)
-Walnut Ave (on Mare Island).

It would be like Z ,imo,to purchase his stamps near the police offices, as further taunting behavior.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   

Zodiac may have collected stamps,I don't know,it's not really what I'm suggesting.The point I was making was that he was consistent with the use of the FDR stamp and I'm asking why he changed when he did and offering a reason.
The fact that FDR was known to have done so and had control over various designs and issues may have played a part in Z's thinking, by way of clueing us in.
That said there are several angles also with later stamp choices.Another for example that ties directly into this theory is the Citizen letter in which Zodiac uses a Samuel Adams stamp.
Jefferson/Adams. Amazingly, Adams was born on the 27th of september, the same date at the murder at Lake Berryessa/Monticello. I think there's a pattern here!
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 2:03 pm:   

Adams and Jefferson were both revolutionaries. That gets us back to Robert Emmet and Comrade V.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   

Perhaps it does Doug, and some of the things I want to introduce here are similar. That's not to say that these things are invalid.However, I think I can raise the bar.To show design you need one of two things or two things...formula and or reptiition. We can take what I call "once-off's" and read anything into them. To show it was intended you need the above.
I'm not taking something from the outside and bringing it to the table, rather, I'm using things that Zodiac himself gave us repeatedly.
Zodiac chose to murder on the fourth of July, that's something he gave us. Zodiac also chose to change that stamp. I'm only concerned at this point with things that can be backed up by Z himself. Either this was a startling coincidence or Z designed it that way. In other words, he deliberately chose that Stamp or he happened to pick that stamp, unaware, of the connection it had. What I believe is here is a "puzzle" linked to a single "building block".
I think there's something here to be solved. if you look at what we have thus far we have
1. Thomas jefferson...linked directly to BRS.
2. Samuel Adams...linked directly to LB

I believe murders and written communication go hand in hand.
Isn't it some coincidence that we can link the next (Stine) to Washington.
Jefferson/Adams/Washington. A single subject, three men from the same era, all knew each other!
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   

At the time that FDR stamp was the most widely used. It even came in those rolls of stamps. I used lots of them. Could be he just used what stamps he had. Might be why he used 2 first class stamps rather than go out and buy some one cent ones.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   

Sean, you're indeed not suggesting that Zodiac tried to communicate through his stamps?

Speaking of remarkable "coincidences," I have a riddle for everyone:

Paramecium.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 7:15 pm:   

Sean, I think you are on to an interesting puzzle. I just wanted to post my Post Office and stamp ideas here, because I didn't know where else to post them.---What are your thoughts on the Eisenhower stamp on The Exorcist Envelope,or the Moon stamp on The Halloween envelope?

Z might have changed stamps because he ran out of his books, blocks and rolls that he had collected. That Roosevelt stamp was the standard issue at most Post Offices in that era.--k--
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 4:47 am:   

Collette/Dave,
He could indeed have just changed stamps because he "ran out"! However that means he had 14 or 16 stamps to begin with, ran out, went out and bought just 6 Jefferson stamps (he never used them again), went back and bought another 7 FDR stamps, went out and bought the moon stamp, and then finally had another 2 FDR for his last envelope the LA Times.
It's another three years before we hear from him again. So for the initial campaign, he changes only twice.
If he has a book of stamps, he has a book of stamps, if he hasn't he hasn't.
However, one of the most telling things for me is that he had and used such a unique copying device.I think it's unlikely he was unaware of it's history.Why in the world would he use such a thing (one one that can be verified at this point)
if he wasn't making some statement.
It's for those reasons Doug, that I am suggesting
he gave clues, not just with the stamps.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 5:16 am:   

Dave,
If there is some link to the Eisenhower stamp I haven't found it!
The Halloween "Moon stamp" was to commemerate the Apollo 8 mission.This was issued in may 1969.
The first issue card includes artwork that depicts
the "mission patch". Coincidentally again, this patch consists of a distorted "8" figure, remarkably similar to part of the newly introduced (at the time) symbol in the "My Name is Code".Of course the Belli letter was also Zodiac's 8th comunication.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 6:04 am:   

I can see no one is interested in the riddle of the paramecium, so fine. You can read about it in my book. :-)

Sean, I don't know where you're coming from with this "copying device" thing. Perhaps you can explain further. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of it.

The Apollo stamp may have something to do with the fact that two major Apollo missions were being carried out during the first two Zodiac assaults--the murders actually appear to have knocked their coverage off the front pages of the Times-Herald. Perhaps something about the Apollo program got him ticked off. Perhaps he simply didn't like the notoriety the moon missions were getting, so he decided that those occasions would be the best time for stirring up a community and drawing its attention away from the events. The Exorcist and (unauthenticated) SLA letters tend to bear this out. The Exorcist enjoyed huge public notoriety, as did the SLA, having abducted heiress Patty Hearst less than two weeks prior to its receipt.

The FDR stamps I believe were fairly common at the time, so there's not really much you can deduce from them. Perhaps his name was Franklin. (Or perhaps, since there were two Presidents named Roosevelt his name was Theodore!)

Whatever the case, Sean, you're quite right in thinking that there are clues all over the place. The only problem is that, like the hood he wore at Berryessa, the clues exist to tickle Zodiac's fancy alone, and he doesn't care if anyone else understands them -- in fact, he flatters himself that no one else is clever enough to understand them; not even Gareth Penn, who we all know to be very, very smart.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 6:36 am:   

Doug, is paramecium the singular of parameciae?

I had similar thoughts about the Apollo Mission stamp. Also, the Stine site is a good spot for watching a full moon cross over the SF area.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 6:40 am:   

I think so, Dave. Russian is a tough language.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 6:53 am:   

Doug,
The discussion on the copying device in on the archived board under "Did Zodiac use a copying device". I can see no other explanation for what appears on those envelopes and I believe neither did anyone else. It has to go down as physical evidence.

This just started as a simple observation...on the one true anniversary in this case Zodiac chose to mark the anniversary of the first murder at LHR by writing to Belli. In more that one way it was a clear departure, including a change of stamp.
Whatever you make of it, design or coincidence Zodiac chose a well know figure, Jefferson who happened to have many parallels to Zodiac himself.
These are not obscure facts, it's information one would read about Jefferson, if you read anything at all about him.
1. Jefferson invented and used codes, just as Z did.
2.Jefferson was famous for using a copying device, just like Z had previously done (not an instrument you would find in every house exactly)
3.Jefferson died on July 4th, same as Zodiac's second victims.
4. Jeffersons home is Monticello ,same name as Z's third murder site.

These facts (IMO) suggest design and go directly to more than one aspect of the Z case.
I'm just suggesting that there was method to his madness, or at least trying to test that theory.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 7:31 am:   

And I agree, Sean; wholeheartedly; hence the teasing allusion to the paramecium. I've been pursuing this line of thought for some time now in reference to Kaczynski, and it's so all-encompassing that my writing schedule has been thrown off while I do the necessary research. To anyone doing the same in regards to Zodiac, the best advance I can give is to bear in mind that no subject is too abstruse or out-of-bounds for this individual, and his wealth of knowledge apparently encompasses all areas of human endeavor.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 9:28 am:   

Incidentally, I forgot to mention with regard to the copying device. When I discovered that, I happened to be in contact with S.F.P.D at the time and mentioned it(thinking it was something new) I was told that document examiners were already aware of it. So,on that score, there can't be much doubt about it.

There's a difference here Doug, as I see it, with the Jefferson connection.The beauty or the flaw is that it's an all or nothing deal. I can't see a snowball's chance in hell of Zodiac being able to come up with this after the fact.
It has to be the other way around, he had this up his sleeve all the time.
I know I'll probably be accused of being fanciful, however, if there was design here, Zodiac needs the 4th of July date, he also needs to head up to Berryessa and also have some aspect of a know Jefferson code.
We have always wondered why he waited 6 months before killing a second time and why he waited until after the second murder (on the 4th) to begin writing.
Not that I couldn't be given various reasons for that, but undeniably,this theory fits also.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 9:37 am:   

We have also asked why he went all the way up to Berryessa, it has been suggested that he wanted to kill in daylight. Is there a reason it couldn't be the other way around, that being he wanted to make that connection and knew the only real chance of finding victims was during daylight hours.
Also he planned to write on the car and did. The only proof it was Zodiac was the handwriting, what he wrote would not have stood the test as proof. He could have written a lot of things, he chose dates.
There has been a consistency with these findings.
All have come about by asking simply why he changed, when he changed. At each and every turn, it leads back to this topic.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 11:45 am:   

Very well, Sean; I can see the two envelopes where the notation "Please rush to Editor" is identical on each. However, it would take quite a bit of convincing before I'd believe that the murders were planned around some kind of grand scheme. If anything it would have been more of a coincidence, which Zodiac was clever enough to perceive and take advantage of.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   

Just some thoughts--Jefferson had slaves. The original town of Monticello at LB is underwater."Please help me I'm drownding" in the letter.

The Presidio had overhead copy machines available to their people who were in Intelligence and Psyops units, and in some cases, public classes.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   

Here's a thought... was Z once a resident of Monticello? The dam was completed in 1957, and by 1963, the valley was flooded with 1,600,000 acre feet of water (Quail Ridge Reserve).
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 3:15 am:   

I realise Doug,that at face value here,what I'm suggesting here is going to challenge the notions we have had with regard to Zodiac and his motivations,but there is a long way to go yet and I believe there's too much here to write off as simple coincidence....we'll see!

I think it's important to put this apparent clue/coincidence into some kind of perspective.
These connections to Z are not something that could be linked after the fact. What are the odds on Zodiac finding someone or clueing us into something having killed on the 4th of July, having murdered at Monticello, having used a copying device and also having decided to use codes, all in one go. You could pick one of these and chalk it down to coincidence, but all of these connections test that position.
I'm very full sure that if it was discoved for example that there were matching Astrological dates or full moons etc, that no one would have a problem believing Z was working to some design, and by definition would have to wait until the heavens were right.This is just a different take and one that this guy was capable of.....
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 3:34 am:   

Now if the was an intended clue,(and let's leave it as an "IF" for the moment)we can see why he would use a copying device on an envelope that contained a code.
I mean, why on earth use that device, just once and then drop it? Zodiac was about "proof", and I can only sense that he used it for a specific purpose.
IF the connections were designed he has to wait until July 4th to murder, he has to have that date to link these things together.In fact he does link these dates on the car door, including giving us the date of that murder, which was unnecessary.
I also believe, not 100% (maybe Ed could clarify this) that the papers/police put the date of the BRS murders as the 5th.It was a couple of weeks before he wrote and we know he checked the media.
He could have went along with this, but still came back at LB with the 4th.
What I'm saying is that(not that it's correct) but this answers the questions we have asked.
Why did he wait a whole 6 months before killing a second time?
Why did he wait until after the second murder to begin writing?
Why did he go all the way up to LB?
Yes,we can think of other suggestions, but at least at this time we have a possible explanation that accounts for all.

Dave, yes Jefferson have slaves and there are other connections to Jefferson. I may come to some of them later, I just didn't want to go off on tangents at this time.

Ed,mabye Z was a Monticello resident,I don't know
It's amazing that that card came from there though, especially if he wasn't.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 9:19 am:   

Sean, Very interesting indeed! Did you know that there were at least two Poss. Z victim bodys found at schools ? One was Angela Thomas 4/2/73 Ben Franklin Jr. High, the other ,Nancy Gidley found 7/15/73 George Washington High.I do believe the stamps tell a story. Oddly enough suspect Kane's mother Sarah as far as I can tell, worked at a post office in S.F. ( There where other Sarah Kanes in S.F.) The number 8 is what I saw in the my name clue, not a Taurus sign like most believe,even though my number one suspect kane is a Taurus.My other suspect R.H. has a "vanity" plate 3-888 ! Any ideas ?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 10:03 am:   

Hi Sandy, thanks! I wasn't aware of those victims so that didn't enter into any of this. To be honest,I don't know or at least, have yet to be convinced that Z murdered after Stine. He could of course have done exactly what he claimed he was going to do and murder again without claiming responsibility. The Jury is still out on that!
The vanity plate is interesting, in that I wouldn't at all be surprised if Zodiac (in everyday life)had or wore something that connected
to the case....Much like, X and the logo on his building....Allen and the watch....R.H and his vanity plate,I think something like that fits the personality.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   

This has been mentioned before, but it ties in with these dates and theory. Zodiac killed in San francisco at Washington and Cherry on October 11th.There is the story written by Washingtons biographer, that tells the story of a young George, owning up (to his father)to "killing" a Cherry tree.The biographer was Mason Weems, who, coincidentally died on October 11th, same date as Zodiac killed Paul Stine.
So it's not only that he picked that place he also picked that date.
At the very least it appears to be another bizarre coincidence, right on the same theme,again tied to an anniversary.
Again,there is nothing here, that hasn't been given by Zodiac himself.
He killed on july 4th and picked the jefferson Stamp.
He killed at Monticello and then picked the jefferson stamp.
He killed on august 27th and went on to pick the Samuel Adams stamp.
He chose to kill at Washington and Cherry on this exact date.

Another coincidence that ties back to this era is that the communication with the Adams stamp (Adams well know for his writing)was signed "A Citizen". This pseudonym in particular was frequenty used at that time.Farmers /Revolutionaries who wrote into newspapers used these to conceal thier identities from Crown forces and authorities.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 3:25 pm:   

Sean, I don't think he killed on August 27, and I don't believe he killed "at" Monticello. September 27 and "near" Monticello are close, but not quite there, as far as I can see.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   

Additionally, there's no evidence to suggest that he stalked Hartnell and Shepard prior to killing them. Essentially, he took the victims he could find, when and where he could find them.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   

I think he was stalking them to some degree. After all, he couldn't write his message in felt pen on a dark vehicle. And he just happened to find 2 people engaging in sex while cruising around randomly? Not likely, IMO.

Doug, are you still doing your push ups?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 5:25 pm:   

It's very easy to find people engaged in sex while cruising around randomly, if you know what you're looking for. For instance, there's one particular spot out on the backroads about five miles from where I live that's almost always occupied. I'd guess that about ten percent of the rednecks in Kent County have been conceived there--probably in the same car their parents were conceived in.

Zodiac probably knew that there would be a certain number of frolicking couples on Berryessa's 100-plus miles of shoreline on a fine day in September. If it hadn't been Hartnell and Shepard, it would have been Johnson and Smith.

Yes, I'm still doing pushups. Great exercise for the upper body. I'm determined to maintain my physical strength as I age--not to stave off the inevitable, but simply so I can be productive and enjoy my existence during the "golden" years ahead.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   

I think Sean meant 9-27, not 8-27, Doug. Also, the submerged town of Monticello is roughly 2.25 miles northeast of Zodiac Island. There also used to be a house on the ridge that is now Z Island; when the lake is very low, more of the ridge is exposed to the southeast (pointing towards Goat Island), and the foundation of the house is visible (someone even used some of the bricks to spell "USA" nearby; whenever the water level drops enough, it should become visible again). Wouldn't it be bizarre if Z lived in that house just a few years earlier?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 1:09 pm:   

Doug,
That was a typo, I did actually mean Sept 27th. The day of the murder and also the day Adams was born.
It's also curious that he wrote that date on the car door.He made a phone call shortly afterwards, so it wasn't as if that date would be in dispute.
I'm suggesting he was linking these dates because that's what was important.
I don't see how stalking the victims comes into the equation, what I'm suggesting is that he went up here to kill in that area at or as close to Monticello as possible, in order to make that connection. He'd have to take victims where he found them. He probably cruised around that area until he found them.
Also, I know we can't prove the Monticello card was authentic, however he may well have sent that card later to make that link.
We are still at a loss to explain why he simply didn't write Lake berryessa as opposed to the "people in the North bay area".
I believe this is part of it, it's going to take a bit yet before this sits together, however, I believe that was part of the "puzzle". He gives so much and leaves clues to the rest.
Again I don't know if all of this is correct, however, you will see this as we go,and how even the patterns to the puzzle itself are repeated. (I Hope..LOL)
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   

Just to explain that Lake berryessa/people in the north bay, a little better.It will become clearer later, however , what I'm saying for now,is that, he couldn't mention "lake berryessa" because the connection is then lost. On the other hand if he mentions Monticello "directly", then he's giving too much. Then the links are straightforward and obvious.This is repeated throughout, he gives two links, and leaves clues to the others.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 1:38 pm:   

Apologies for the split posts....Suppose we had the direct information from Zodiac. He killed on the 4th of July,he killed at Monticello, he killed at Washington and Cherry( which is what I believed he did). Then everyone would say..Independece day..the treaty of Independence...Monticello..Jefferson..Washington.. the American Revolution. That's exactly what I believe he was saying, except he chose to do it this way he did because this was his way of setting the "puzzle" in place.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   

Sean, there are a number of things going for the Monticello letter. First, it's listed among the "suspected Zodiac correspondence," maintained and tested for DNA by SFPD. Second, it forms a thematic continuum with the Pines Card and the St. Donna card by its use of the identical themes of mountains, snow and trees. Third, it references a literary work, namely Alfred Austin's "Agatha," something that's definitely a Zodiac trait (literary allusion).
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   

Well, I agree Doug.I'm sure they have(I don't know)a lot of letters at the time from cranks etc,yet the chose to hold this one for some reason.I'm just reluctant to base this theory on something that not verified.It doesn't discract from the theory,however, as far as this theory goes, it's a bonus/coincidence that it exists at all, especially as it mentions Monticello directly.

Ed....You got me thinking, with your suggestion about Z living at that house. If this theory turns out to be incorrect, that's not a bad idea.
At least it may be worthwile considering (even if he didn't live there, that there was some connection with that house/water.
Alternatively, perhaps the Monticello link combined with that house, meant jeffersons home.
House at Monticello!
There's another point here with regard to the water connection. While it doesn't form any part of this theory and I personally, have always thought that that connection broke down at Washington and Cherry, perhaps there's something to it.I say that because the "water connection" if there was one is similar to the clue type I'm suggesting here.
In other words, if you believe in this connection, you have to ask about Blue rock Springs.Zodiac wrote "over by the golf course in vallejo". He doesn't mention Blue Rock springs, why?
You can only conclude one of two things (I think)
either the water connection didn't enter his mind Or he was providing that link, but wanted us to figure it.
Does that makes sense?
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 4:39 am:   

In any event, this is where, I found myself having made these connections.
Whatever way we choose to look at it Zodiac(with the belli letter) consciously chose to link it to the Stine Murder by including the shirt.
He consciously chose to link it to the first murder by writing on the anniversary and whatever was to be made of it at this point, it was connected to the other two murders also.
But if this were true, (as Ed points out in the other thread) what was the point?, or more importantly first, how do we complete the picture?
Interesting as it was, there was a part of the puzzle missing.
We had a link to BRS,Monticello and Washington and Cherry, all linked to the same subject with accompanying dates.
However,if that was the case and the picture was to be completed, we need to account for the first murder on Lake herman Road on December 20th.
So then, the bar is high here, in order to get there we need to find someone who ties in with the same sumbect, who knew and corresponded with all of those mentioned already. He had to have some background that fits with what zodiac was about and also had to have a connecting anniversary with December 20th.
For what it's worth, that's honestly, the position I was in. Not only did I find a connection, I had never heard of this individual before.....
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 4:56 am:   

I want to make a list here first of the connections found. The Trouble with making these connections between these American Revolutionaries
and Zodiac, or the connection they had with each other is difficult to gauge.
For instance there are other connection with jefferson I could mention, but I don't know (if this theory is correct)how much Zodiac actually needed.
In any case, the first may be coincidence, however all of the other are crucial to the theory and can be backed up.
1.In 1771 Samuel Adams wrote several letters to this individual, among them were letters posted on July 31st, September 27th, and October 31st.
This of course would correspond, with Zodiac's first letters, the murder at LB and indirectly the halloween card. There were other letters also not connected so it may just be coincidence. But I don't know perhaps there was something to it.
While I have enough to explain this theory, I don't know how deep it goes.

2. When Jefferson refused a commission to France this person took his place. (This is critical)
3.This person wrote a code book called the dictionary code (This is critical)
4.This person is most famous from his " Monitor letters", which were letters to the editors of Newspapers, written under a pseudomym during this era.
5. Among his choices of Pseudonym's was Raleigh.
5.This person died on Dec 20th same day as Zodiac's first outing on Lake herman Road.

His name is Arthur Lee.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:02 am:   

I'm sure without having to say what the obvious connections are here and while we have still a long way to go, we have a series of connections, given by Zodiac himself (consciously or unconsciously) that connects/links with a one time top Z suspect.
Even within this theory, it was going to be asked why Zodiac would come up with such a subject and with this connection, even that's answered.
This particular person had a famous namesake, and did his own father Ethan Allen another famous revolutionary. I'm sure it's not something that went unnoticed in the Allen home.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 6:37 am:   

On more point here, that goes to reinforce this theory,in terms of a killer coming up with such a scheme.
I don't have this clipping at hand (I'll find it)but perhaps Tom still has a copy from the paper.
On November 20th 1969 a Zodiac article appeared in one of the newspapers, in which a psychologist was interviewed regarding his thoughts on Zodiac.
He was of the opinion that Zodiac (whoever he was)
would be the type of individual who would "identify" with a famous person.
Yes,it's only an opinion, but there it is!
In any case, I'm sure if any of us or anyone one else had a famous namesake, we would be well aware of who and what he was.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:42 am:   

Sean, on first reading, I'm impressed. I don't know what to make of this and when I'm less rushed, I hope to delve into this deeper.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:52 am:   

Thanks Warren, appreciate it! Don't be put off ripping into this...it's there to be tested and I would welcome any comments or questions
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:58 am:   

Sean, it's ironic, but it seems that your efforts to implicate Art Allen end up pointing right to Ted Kaczynski.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:10 am:   

Well, Doug,as I've said earlier, the "final solution" here may not be correct and perhaps it will/does tie in with others suspects or even some unknown suspect, if that's the case,so be it!
I'm sure you will connect it up for us.
Just on a note here, I'm sure it will be seen by some that I'm making an "effort to implicate Art Allen.It may not be believed but I just followed what I thought were direct clues. That's the way this happened. There's no graysmith hiding in the bushes here, my interest in Allen comes directly from this theory.
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Ericd
Username: Ericd

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   

Sean,
Your posts are always intriguing!
Anyone know of any links to view the Monticello Card?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   

I don't know of anyone who has actually seen that card. We know about it because it appeared on the list of "suspected Zodiac correspondence" created by SFPD in reference to DNA testing. All we know is that the words "near Monticello," "Shought victims 21" and "in the woods dies April" appear on it.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:06 am:   

At the risk of stating the obvious, we know that Zodiac was not only murdering people in the Bay Area, but also sending taunting communications,in which he repeatedly returned to the issue of revealing his name.
In his first letters he claimed that his identity was encoded in the first cipher, he then came back and said that when we "cracked it we would have him", he followed that with the My name is code", went on to the halloween card, to clue us in and eventually when signing off as Z, left us with a signature to ponder.
The fact that he was caught in an apparent lie, still didn't deter him. When the first code was cracked, he said he would not give his name, yet he still returned to this issue again and again.
The obvious point being was that this issue occupied much of his thinking.

The information posted thus far here, was discovered after an original theory dealing with the communications only.In essence, what we have here now is one complete theory, however it's split into two seperate parts.He chose two different ways to point us in the same direction, yet they combine to give one full picture.
To that end, I would ask you to consider this likewise, look at how one mimic's the other and how they come together to compliment each other to give us the whole picture....
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:16 am:   

In order to that that, I need to explain a few things, but first go back to put what we have in the context that I see it.

Arthur leigh Allen (the Zodiac) first murders on December 20th 1969.He has chosen that date because that ultimately reveals who he is, on the anniversary of Arthur lee.He has given us his "identity" but not his name. Arthur lee is not Arthur leigh Allen, but it is a phonetically partial match and sufficient for the puropse. He is also a person who wrote codes, just like Z and a person who was famous for his letters to the Editors of newspapers, just like Z.He has identified with this person exactly for those reasons.
The nature of this puzzle reverses the normal methodology. Normally when a puzzle is laid out ,it leads in with several clues, ultimately revealing tha solution. However, with this he flips that formula on it's head and gives the solution first, followed by the clues. This is not an unimportant point, because it offers him security and he maintaines control. There's no way this link can be made at this stage, in fact, we can get here at all until all of the information is in.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:26 am:   

From here it becomes a question of how to lay the puzzle out and how he points us to this "solution".Remember, he's using the murders to point us here. The direct like to Arthur lee is the American Revoultion and especially jefferson. However in order to link this to jefferson he needs to wait 6 months, for the anniversary of Jefferson. Jefferson then becomes the "key". There's no point in beginning his written communications until he has this connection made. This offers an explanation as to why he curiously waited 6 months to kill a second time and why he waited until after this date to begin writing. Jefferson is perfect for this because his anniversary also falls on the signing of the declaration of Independence, the premier American celebration for the birth of the Nation.
Jefferson also has a similar background in codes and this is all important, because when it comes to the time he gives us Jefferson directly, he needs to hold our attention.
In effect, this is the beginning of building us a picture, he now needs to go on and build this up around Jefferson and the American revolution, in order to guide us back to the "solution" hidden within the first murder.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:44 am:   

The next step in this process is to concentrate our attention around Jefferson. It needs to be much more that a one-off. He has already used a copying device on the back of two of the first three envelopes ( a unique device Jefferson was famous for using)but now he needs to tie in the next murder also.This is the reason I suggest he heads all the was up to Lake berryessa, to kill at Monticello and again forge another link to back to Jefferson. Zodiac could have found victims anywhere and he need not have taken such a risk as killing in broad daylight.However, I suggest that it was the other way around here, he wasn't particurarly looking to kill in daylight, but knew his chance of finding victims in this area were much better.May also have been why he chose the costume, if anything went wrong or he was spotted, he was identifying himself by wearing
his signature, clearly visible on his chest.
He has planned to write on the car, or wherever he could leave a message and takes this opportunity
to link up that dates. It wasn't just to prove it was Z, but also to tell us that the dates were key.Why else waist time by giving the date of that day? he planned on rining the police anyway, so this would not have been in question.
In actual fact he need not have written anything at all at the scene. A telephone call followed by a later letter would have sufficed, with details of the crime...
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:47 am:   

Apologies for some errors there...I keep having problems with this computer and only have a certain amount of time to get the post off before losing all.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:01 am:   

For the final murder, he again needs to keep this theme going and swings around and heads down for the city.This time he choses a taxi driver to bring him right to his destination, Washington and Cherry. There's a change here though. Why for example does he not find another location related to Jefferson? Why does the anniversary not link to Washington himself?
I believe it's because,(with all of the people he introduces us to)there's something in particular he wants us to know. In this case it's the story of Washington and the Cherry tree. This is all about owning up, literally identifying who is responsible. He needs to keep the "American revolution" theme going and this story in particular is central to that aim. The story is symbolic of exactly that.In actual fact (I believe) he does two things here that are steeped in symbolism, picks this location at this time for the above reason and deliberately chooses the "bloody shirt" as the item.
The terms "bloody shirt" when used as a metaphor, literally means "flagrant proof of guilt" and was used way back in the 1800's as meaning exactly that.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:14 am:   

A final few points here to complete this section.
In terms a plan or or "grand design" we have to again go back to the Belli letter. All the pieces were in place before this, all the murders connected to this letter, with the addition of the Jefferson stamps.This was the final clue that enabled everything to be put together.
I don't view the Samuel Adams stamp and citizen letter as being part of the original design.I couldn't say (if correct of coure)that he hadn't held this back or not, but I view it as an additional clue, that he provided later. In terms of planning I believe that this whole thing was in place and scheduled to end with the arrival of Belli letter and that's why he chose to make this the central communication that connected all.
I think ,regardles of one's position on this theory that we could look at the Zodiac case and "see" how things began to fall apart after Belli,there's nothing new, the letters becoming no more than a joke.There are still plenty of clues after this, but they were designed to clue us in/back to what was already in place.
Consider also,Zodiac's 7th letter, when he wrote that he would no longer announce to anyone anymore and that his future murders would look like accidents etc. It reality I believe he was signalling the end here. Even if he did go on to kill again (I'm not convinced) it wasn't in the guise or Zodiac and probably not connected to what was already in place.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:29 am:   

End of part 1.....Don't know if anyone is interested, but I'm here/available to answer any questions, clarify any point, discuss/argue out any points. Like I've said all along, I've put this out to see how it stands up/if it does, so anything at all, regardless of view, is most welcome.
Thanks.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:32 am:   

Sean, one thing to remember is that Z's destination was Washington and Maple, not Cherry. They went that one block farther to Cherry for reasons unknown, and had that been Z's original intention, why did he write "over by Washington St + Maple St"? As I've suggested in other posts, that means Z wasn't all that familiar with the area, chose and memorized Washington and Maple, and didn't have a clue he was on Cherry as he escaped the cab.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 4:03 am:   

Sure Ed, understood. But let's examine that.
You said it yourself, he moved one block further for "reasons unknown".
Now we don't know for sure, but the suggestion was always, that there was someone on the corner of W&M and that forced him to move on.If there wasn't and his destination was there, why move on at all?
If we accept that as the reason, it makes his next move all the more curious. He's mindful that there might be people in the area and pulls up under a light, just short of the next corner (cherry). At any given minute someone could walk around that corner right on top of him with no advance notice.
Why not, for example, stop half way in some dark area?
Alternatively, if his destination was W&C, then doesn't it make perfect sense to get the driver to pull up one block short first and allow himself time to ensure the coast is clear. Hell,for all we know, he may have gotten Stine to drive around the block first.....
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 4:15 am:   

To believe that he was unaware of Cherry street. probably means that he missed the name on both corners and /or didn't survey/plan very well as north on Cherry was the closest route to the Park/pacific.(That's possible too) But he was still aware of the direction the streets inside the Presidio ran and I think we are both in agreement that it was unlikely he went there.
I accept there's an alternative argument, sure.
But time and time agin (I'll come back to it)I'll show how he puts one thing in front of us while leaving clues to something else entirely.
The point I've been making all along is that this was a puzzle, (if correct)it's a question of striking a balance between giving enough and giving too much.
Does this make sense?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:09 am:   

Sean, I'd first like to apologize for not posting in this thread earlier. These days I'm almost totally wrapped up in my financial BS and usually barely skim the message board more than it takes to delete the moronic stuff that seems to always occupy the public section.

In any event, this thread is the exact type of discussion I was hoping for when I added the message board years ago. Slowly I'm inhaling it all and will post my thoughts when I'm up to speed.
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   

No problem Tom, thanks! Look forward to your thoughts, whatever they are.

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