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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 6:29 pm:   

Crimes involving automobiles are a common denominator in Zodiac's killing spree. He doesn't break into a home and kill it's inhabitants or go into a convience store and kill a clerk. He likes his victims to have something to do with a car.

Farady/Jensen - Shot getting out of a car. Car shot.
Ferrin/Mageau - Shot in car.
Shepard/Hartnell - Not attacked in or around their car but their car is brought into the crime by Zodiac writing the dates of his attacks on their car door.
Paul Stine - Shot in car. Car keys stolen.

Possible Zodaic victim Cheri Jo Bates - Killed away from car after car is disabled.

Possible potential Zodiac victim Kathleen Johns - Driven in his car after he disables her car and later burns her car.

Besides killing and wounding victims he defaces a car and shoots up a car. And if Zodiac crimes, he disables two cars, burning and destroying one of them.

He claims in a letter to have shot a man in a parked car.

He has plans to possibly destroy a school bus and shoot kids coming out of the bus.

He references cars in his letters talking about road races, car drivers, cruzeing prowl cars, a cop car pulled up, and peeling rubber. Even his planned bomb involves a car battery.

Seems like a need to have cars incorporated into his crimes and I don't know why but they seem as important to his grand scheme as codes and ciphers and his name and symbol are.
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Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 7:53 pm:   

Interesting, Johno.

I'm not sure how to interpret that but there sure are a lot of "car connections" aren't there? I think part of this is due to Z being a very "mobile" murderer (as opposed to BTK, for instance, who enjoyed breaking into people's homes and killed in his own neighborhood).

If Z killed Cheri Jo Bates and sent the Confession letter, the act of "pulling the middle wire from the distributor" to disable her car would seem to indicate someone who had some basic knowledge of automobiles and the use of the car battery in the bomb schematics would seem to support this.

Interesting observation anyway.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   

Good observation, Johno. This would appear to be an important signature aspect to Z's crimes, and it would definitely rule Donna Lass out as a Z victim.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 1:03 am:   

That is a good observation, and I think the answer is that not only is Zodiac mobile, but his victims are as well--being in and around their cars generally signifies they're out, away from the safety of their home bases, and essentially vulnerable to a Zodiac-style attack.
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Dave
Username: Dave

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   

Great observations! I would say it was all about control with Zodiac. Again, we are dealing with a coward. This man would have wanted to maximize the control aspect of all of his attacks. IMO, Z would have wanted to quickly assess who he was preying on. Breaking into a house would have been a confident play but would have left Z open and vulnerable. In addition to quickly assessing his victims he would feel more than confident about his attack, escape route, etc.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 9:15 am:   

He also placed phone calls after most of his crimes,so phones played a part in his game. If we take a better look at the Son of Sam killings,not only were the victims near water,but they were also mostly in cars. The discription given by Tommy Ziano also fits the Z discription. So if Z is responsible for all of the couples killed in cars near water,then it is not so much of a leap to think he could be the real Son of Sam and David B. was just one of the helpers in this cult just as David has said about Mr.Realestate. Z had stopped or had gone some place else to do his collecting of slaves, why not NY? Donna Lass was alone late at night about to go to her car.She was near water, a phone call was made probably by her abductor.We know that Kane worked with in feet of her and had been seen by Donna's friends talking to her days before she was taken. My first thought when I saw the Z letter 1971 that ended with if there is enough (skin) left over, and the long ink trail dragging downwards from the letter r,was a mocking of Donna's last entry in her note book that also trailed downwards.Was the writer giving yet another clue to Donna's disappearance ?
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J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   

I had raised the issue of the cars some time back with a thread called "Kill The Cars" or some such. That was B.C. (Before Corruption). Wonder if the kill-score tallies Z used (ME 38 SFPD 0, that sort of thing) might include cars he's destroyed too!

As for poor Donna Lass - maybe someday she'll be found at the bottom of Lake Tahoe in a rusty car....
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Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 9:55 am:   

I have been leaning more towards Zodiac being a mechanic at the Rock Quarry relative to being a truck driver because of his first Bus Bomb diagram. If you look you can see that Zodiac makes a loop over other wires to show a non connection just like in an repair manual wiring diagram. Regardless, i do feel he has mechanical ability.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   

Hawk, I agree that he has some mechanical knowledge even though I knew about pulling a coil wire at the age of 15. That was how I knew it was gone when I tried to start my car in Vallejo in 1968 ( my father was a mechanic).Knowing about that may have saved my life, because I was able to get home safely, after putting another one in my car.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   

Sandy, LOL, you got that right. Your Dad taught you some good stuff.

Hawk----I'm leaning towards him being a truck driver with basic mechanical aptitude. Do they use Ammonium Nitrate at quarries?
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:00 am:   

Hi Ed,
We don't know if a car was involved in the Lass case-she just vanished.It wasn't known for certain is she drove to work that night.It was dark and not safe to walk all the way back to her apartment.It would be reasonable to drive home at that late hour.

Her 'new' car she had recently bought,was found locked at her apartment;but how many times does this happen when a young woman has been abducted?I know of MANY such cases and ,yes,the car was locked by the perp who had used her car to abduct the victim!

As I say we don't know enough to rule out a Z based on whether car was figured in her disappearance.

If you say she left with a 'secret' boyfriend(which there is NO proof),which I don't agree with,then a car was probably used by the couple to 'run away.'

If Lass was abducted like in John's case,then a car would be used.We don't know all of the details in her case.
And this was after Z's promise to "change the way"he was going to kill his victims.Of course,this was only a claim,but it was possible.We do know known victims of Z after he made that Nov.'69 statement THEN became speculation!We can say he stopped,but we can't be certain.

He certainly showed he was capable of anything including the very bizarre LB attack!

A car was NOT near BH/CS when Z attacked.Yes,he did write on BH'a car( a call after LB-but no call in SF to our knowledge-slight changes,but they are differences and changes per se),but this was unique and he never, to our knowledge, did this again.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:08 am:   

Corrections:To rule out a Z based crime or whether...

We don't know of any known Z victims after he made...sorry
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 2:35 pm:   

Howard, and there's nothing to rule this in as a Z crime other than a vague card that could have been written by anyone and could mean anything. Even if it was written by Z, that hardly constitutes proof that he had anything to do with her disappearance anymore than his apparent claim of responsibility for the murders of Snoozy, Furlong and Radetich; in fact, there's no evidence he murdered 32 other people in addition to the 5 known and proven victims.

All we know is that she vanished; what evidence is there that a crime occurred and that it wasn't actually staged by Lass who voluntarily decided to disappear? It's all speculation, but if anything points to murder, then it points to someone other than Z who decided to write a card to pin the murder on Z.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   

ED,
It has always been a speculation that Lass was a Z-we all know that.I have listed,in the past, everything I and Dave Peterson believe is in favor of a Z and many have done likewise as to the negative.

I think that there is zero evidence that Lass staged her disappearance including personal letters and from all of the people that knew her.
No one,including the police,can point to one bit of evidence that even remotely indicates or gives one the slightest impression she would do such a thing-to the contrary she never displayed any such inclinations and she had no reasons to either.

She had invited her close friend Joanne from S.F.to visit her over the Labor Day holiday as they had made plans and when the friend got there she searched everywhere for Lass as it was not like her to make a plan and not show up.

Even her her bank accounts remained untapped for quite some time.The authorities had the bank keep close tabs on them.

That card does NOT represent her handwriting.Her entire family knows it is not her writing.The card has been given to the FBI and they know it is not her writing.
What I do want from them,though,is to do DNA.

So we are even on that one point.If there is no evidence L was a Z then there is none for a staged disappearance either.

All in the spirit of friendly debate as there are so very few things all of us can agree on.It is the nature of the Z case!
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Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   

H,
" her bank accounts remained untapped for quite some time".
Does that mean they were tapped some time later?
While the card "does not represent her handwriting" it must be said that it doesn't represent Z's either.
I would have to say H, that your comment "if there is no evidence L was Z then there is no evidence for a staged dispearence either" is technically correct, it hardly equates to a stand off.
There are many victims around the periphery of this case that might appear to be linked by some similarity, but they all can't be so it would take something speacial to include them, that hasn't been seen thus far. Of course we should always look.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   

Howard, even if Lass did not voluntarily vanish but was murdered, that still does not make her a Z victim. Just because an extremely vague and apparent Z card that made a vague reference to who knows what at Lake Tahoe was mailed 6 months later doesn't mean that Z was the perp. Rather than pinning it on Z, a convenient monster to blame every unsolved murder in the 1960's and 1970's on, we should look to Lake Tahoe for a possible killer living there. Clouding the case with maybes unfortunately doesn't help us get to the truth.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   

Sean,
Her account was never used.As to Z writing we see that the Red Phantom letter's style of writing is unlike, to some degree,say Z's 12/20/69 missive.The citizen letter and others seem to exhibit differences in some respects to the 7/31/69 slop jobs.
This is four years later when the
Lass card arrived.I think Z was able to change his writing to some degree or another.I can,so he could.
I have pointed out the similarities with Z missives and the Lass card.I have not finished yet.
It doesn't matter if someone does not agree-there are so many disputed areas in this case it would be the norm,not the exception!Keep your work sir!

Ed,
I have never tried to pin a lot of unsolved cases on Zodiac!I have been very careful in this regard.I don't have the time to waste-or money for that matter.I consulted with Peterson and some others.My MAIN thrust has always been known victims and know Z case fact.I spend little time on my rooster of Z possibles.
Of course.I will judge what 'clouds' the case as far as my own research goes.

I have listed the things I feel commend the Pines card as a Z creation.I will stay there.

I agree with your premise though.There are lots on cold cases and this does not mean all of them are Z!
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   

But a lot have, Howard, with nothing more than the fact that they believe certain murders are unsolved and want to make Z out to be a far more prolific monster than he was. But Lass just clouds the case, since there is nothing but a vague card to even connect her to Z. That doesn't mean we should ignore her case, but we also should not include it with the others.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 10:47 am:   

Eddie!
I do include L.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   

I know, Howard, and so do many others and I can't figure out why.
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Howard_davis
Username: Howard_davis

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   

Ed,
Everything in this world has it's opposite-up and down-hot and cold-male and female and Zesearchers and Zesearchers!
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   

This thread has been moved to the "Zodiac Theories" topic.
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Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   

Maybe he works on cars AND his name is Car :-)
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 5:44 pm:   

lovers at lovers lanes were in cars because they had to drive to get there,Duh. Lake B they were not in a car. I think Z enjoyed having people trapped inside of cars because it made it easy for him to shoot them. I believe he killed at the beach in Santa Barbara. Anyone who thinks that the only Z victims, are the ones in cars is very naive. I do not believe he has ever stopped killing, he just isn't bragging about it like he said, you will have to guess which ones are his.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:21 am:   

Sandy,

I'm interested (not the hijack the thread) why you think Z kept killing but just stopped bragging about it? I think the bragging was a big part in his killings and taking that away (I feel) is like taking the sauce out of the pizza. Nothing left except the dough and cheese. I'm sure the topic has been discussed before on the theories on why Z stopped or what ever happened to him, I'm just curious on why you hold yours.

ET
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Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 7:51 am:   

I have never had a real "theory" on who did it and what happened, but over the last few years one has surfaced for me. I have no proof, just suspisions.

I think "The Zodiac" was influenced in some way, shape, or form by the Texarcana killings. I don't think that the killers are the same person, but "Z" was familiar with those killings by books or newspaper articles etc. He may have even lived in that area at the time of the Texarcana killings.

This "theory" of mine, does not tie into my original suspect. The age of the Zodiac (or approximate age) makes the Texarcana tie in logical to me.

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