Was the Zodiac from Vallejo? Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Zodiackiller.com Message Board » Zodiac Theories » Was the Zodiac from Vallejo? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 2:02 am:   

In chat tonight, we were doing some brainstorming about LHR and BRS. Tom & myself have shown that it is likely Z was not from SF (and certainly not living in or familiar with PH), but was almost certainly a frequent visitor, if anything. The question now becomes: where was Z living at the time of the Z murders?

It has been suggested that Z was not from Vallejo and therefore trolled known lover's lanes for victims. Some serial killers, such as Bundy, were known to drive hundreds of miles in search of victims. Others have been known to troll in areas they are familiar and comfortable with. Now, if Z was not living in Vallejo and presumably not familiar with it, I can see him trolling for victims there at random once, but why would he pick the same city a second time, 6 months later (especially since he chose 2 different places to kill after that)? If he lived elsewhere, that does not seem to make much sense, but if he lived in or near Vallejo and/or worked there, it does.

Another thing to consider is that if Z was not from Vallejo, why would be pick a dark, lonely road like LHR to troll for victims? How could he know, or why would he guess, that LHR was a lover's lane and that he could reasonably expect to find potential victims there? If I was not from Vallejo and was trolling there looking for victims, and if I was lucky enough to find LHR in the first place, it would not occur to me to drive back and forth (as Z apparently did) and even park in a known parking area (as Z apparently did) looking/waiting for victims; I certainly wouldn't expect to find young lovers in such an area. On the other hand, if I lived and/or worked in the area, I might know that would be a place to look for possible victims. And if I had grown up there, I'd certainly know as a teenager where all the popular necking spots were (and I'd remember them as an adult). As an out-of-towner... not very likely.

Some 40-45 minutes after shooting Ferrin and Mageau at BRS, Z made his call to VPD. Is it likely that an out-of-towner would drive around a mostly unfamiliar city for more than 30 minutes looking for a phone booth? And why choose one in the heart of the city? Surely Z would have passed by many phone booths as he drove around looking for a place to call VPD, so why choose the one he did call from? It is logical to assume that someone unfamiliar with Vallejo and there just to randomly troll for victims wouldn't drive into the city and closer to the police station, but would rather pick the first phone booth, place his call, and leave the city as soon as possible; if Z was from out of town, it is most odd that he cruised around for the better part of an hour looking for the right phone booth. The booth at Springs & Tuolumne is about a 5 or so minute drive from BRS, not 40-45. A local, on the other hand, would have a place to change clothes and cars before venturing out again to call the cops.

Nick R asked me in chat tonight if Z mentioned Columbus Parkway in a letter or call. Z told Nancy Slover, "If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park..." Nancy pointed out that she thought Z was not a local, because she didn't recall local people referring to BRS as the "public park." However, it occurred to me when Nick asked that question: if Z was from out of town, how in hell did he know BRS was on Columbus Parkway? I don't know what the signage was like at that time, but assuming he was not local and unfamiliar with the area, even if he read a sign indicating the name of the road, would he be likely to remember it? I can't think of how many times I've read a sign and then forgotten the names, especially when one considers everything else one normally concentrates on. Then factor in Z's fear of being caught, keeping an eye out for cops and possible eyewitnesses, and his adrenaline high after shooting 2 people. It seems highly unlikely that he'd recall the street name after glancing at it as he drove past escaping the scene of the crime. However, if Z either lived and/or worked in Vallejo, he would have been familiar with the streets. I would suggest he used the term "public park" in an attempt to mask his familiarity with Vallejo, but slipped up by naming Columbus Parkway (and naming it correctly too).

The foregoing strongly suggests that Z was either from Vallejo and/or worked there. If so, then this tends to rule out such suspects as Hunter, O'Hare, Mr X, Kaczynski and others. This is not to say that it rules Allen in as a suspect, because there are many other things that rule him out as well. The point is, Z's own words and behavior suggest he was very familiar with Vallejo and lived and/or worked there or nearby and had reason to go to Vallejo frequently.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:46 am:   

Ed, I've from he beginning thought he lived in either Vallejo or commuted from Benicia to Vallejo via LHR.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:32 am:   

Consider that 15 Zodiac letters (some in dispute) are postmarked San Francisco. Three of course, were mailed at the same time. This sort of indicates that he at least travelled to San Francisco with some regularity, if not in fact living there.

If not living in San Fran - I would say Benicia.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:17 am:   

1. Worked on Lake Herman rd. (From here he was able to scout out the two lovers lanes).

2. Was from Benicia. (A military naval town where he picked up the Wing Walkers).

3. I-680 seems to be the crossroads that tie all points together even K Johns and Mt Diablo.

4. After BRS Z turns on Lake Herman rd back to Benicia, Along the way he gets the idea to report the murder but can't do so from Benicia because they would trace the call to the town he lives. He takes the long way around maybe Rose dr. to columbus prkwy to springs and that accounts for the time.

This is just MHO. lol
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:00 am:   

Ed There was signage for Columbus Parkway going east on Hwy 37. You stayed to the right if you wanted to go on I-80, similar to how it is now.

Vallejo Speedway was off Broadway and Hwy 37 at that time and the Cresent Drive-in was on Flosden between 37 and American Canyon Rd. Those are two places a non-local could have been and gotten some familararity with the area.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Albert Schmidt (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:02 am:   

At the time Z mailed the first letters he aparently wasn't aware that Mageau was the person who told the cops his car was brown. The letters were mailed from SF. It looks like he came into SF, wrote the first letters and then posted them from there. Then he read the Vallejo papers to see the response. If he had read them first he would of known that it was MM that first mentioned the brown car, not the negro. JMHO
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

SFGuns (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   

He may not be FROM Vallejo, but he certainly had to live in that area at the time of the murders. I'd say most people in the Bay Area come to the city fairly regularly with all that is going on here. It makes more sense to me that he lived in the Vallejo area and came here for one murder and to mail letters then the opposite.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   

Hawk, A couple of things you mentioned caught my eye....

Interviewees from the LHR police report included night shift workers at Humble Oil, which is in the vicinity of the crime scene. One mentioned the night watchman was seen leaned over talking to a man in a large vehicle. If either the night watchman or the man were ever interviewed, it isn't found in the police report. The report however gives quite a bit of insight to the assorted cast of characters on LHR that evening. Also of note...there was a Phillips 66 oil refinery on the 101 near the SB '63 crime scene.

As for the I-680 connection....don't forget that one of the Z letters was postmarked "Pleasanton" which is directly south of Vallejo and LHR on I-680.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:24 pm:   

I've always thought Z was from Vallejo-Benicia-Fairfield. He could have been a commuter , like me, and mailed his letters in SF. I lived near Springs Road and Columbus Parkway in 69, and worked in SF, and attended reserve meetings at the Presidio. I think he used Springs Road for LHR and BRS, jmo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

The point I was making is that Z's behavior is quite odd if we assume he was not from nor familiar with Vallejo but chose it at random to troll for victims twice nearly 7 months apart. IMHO, he either lived there or worked there, although I'm more inclined to think both.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nite Rider (Unregistered Guest)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   

Wreckingball,

Don't forget that I-680 going northbound from the Benicia-Martinez Bridge to Suisun was dedicated in the name of Luther Gibson, the former owner of the Times Herald... Just a little Zynchronicity? However, IMO the Zodiac after the LH murders more than likely went southbound towards Benicia. This was a much shorter escape route than going northbound back into Vallejo. He may have taken I-680 northbound into Cordelia, blending in with the freeway traffic, then into American Canyon and south into Vallejo, eventually to a phone booth, he knew all to well. Why do you think he used the one at "Springs Rd.? and very very close to the LE agency that would handle his case (Solano Sheriffs office). He knew that his crime was commited in the county's jurisdiction and not in the city limits. An out of towner wouldn't have a clue about this area. IMO the "If you'll go 1 mile east on Columbus Pkwy) directions is more than likely started from the point of Admiral Callahan Ln. and Columbus Pkwy. This is the only way you can go in an easterly direction towards BRS as the Zodiac stated in his conversation.
Back in 69' this was the only way to get there from the northwest side of town.
Seagull... Hwy 37 didn't have a Coumbus Pkwy exit. One would have to go all the way to Redwood St. and go northbound past the CHP office on Admiral Callahan Ln. which was a frontage rd to Columbus Pkwy and on to BRS. It was a real inconveniance for the north side residents.

PS. Seagull....... Did you know that while sitting in the stands watching the "hardtops" slide around the oval track, you could, at the same time, watch the latest top rated movie playing at the Crescent Drive-In... Just FYI
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   

The I-680 of today was known as Highway 21 in 1969. The I-780 of today was I-680 in 1969.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:12 pm:   

Ed,

Can you please recap your reasoning for this conclusion?:

"Tom & myself have shown that it is likely Z was not from SF (and certainly not living in or familiar with PH), but was almost certainly a frequent visitor, if anything."

I know the phrase "over by Maple St. & Washington St." in the Stine letter is part of this conclusion. Are there other facts that lead you to conclude that Z was likely not from SF?

I do think it is almost a given that Z was quite familiar with the Vallejo area but I've never read anything that convinced me that he must have lived here or could not have lived in any particular spot in the Bay area.

A similar logic was used, by the way, in the BTK case. Since BTK stalked a fairly small area in the east side of Wichita and serial killers ALWAYS begin killing close to home, every man, woman, animal, vegetable and mineral in east Wichita was DNA swabbed to no avail. It was a reasonable assumption and BTK WAS familiar with east Wichita because he actively stalked there but the assumption actually insulated Dennis Rader, residing in Park City, KS, from detection.

I agree that it is very possible that Z lived in Vallejo but far from a given.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nick
Username: Nick

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:08 am:   

There is just something that struck me as odd in his mention of ".....one mile east on Columbus Parkway...." It seems too specific for someone not pretty familiar with the area. When I first visited Vallejo a few years back I could not have told you 5 minutes after arriving the name of the exit I had taken or whether I headed east or west to get to the hotel. At best I could have told you there was a strip mall on the right with a Target and McDonalds.

I suppose Zodiac could have been referencing a map when he made the Slover call, but then I would have to assume it was his intention all along to commit the murders there. As such, there would have been a reason he chose Vallejo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:44 pm:   

As I said in chat that evening Ed, your abovementioned is an awsome theory that makes perfect sense. The question I have for you ed is; What was the area like were the phone booth was located? Was it an area with numerous building, alleys etc to where Z could easily cut across areas to go undetected? If so, that could explain why Z did not choose a phone booth near BRS. If he were to drive away on a long road or an unpopulated area, he could have been detected by a cop who could have immediatley recieved the call IMO. Another theory about Z taking soo long to make the call is that he could have needed time to get over the anxiety of killing to where he was somewhat rational to make sense during the phone call. Hell, for that matter, he might have went home, dropped off his car, cleaned up, have a drink and then walk to the phone booth for all we know.

Steering away, depending on the Authenticity of the letters, we know despite the letters that were mailed from SF, one was mailed form Pleasonton, which somewhat far South of Vallejo, and the Red Phantom letter mailed from San Rafael, which is East of Vallejo and South of the CA-37. I would not venture far to say that the Red Phantom letter is truly authentic. Is the LA Times letter sent from Pleasanton considered truly authentic? Why would he have mailed it so far form Vallejo if he was from Vallejo?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:13 am:   

A few more questions (I'm sure Ed will open his mailbag eventually, lol):

Why did Z feel the need to mail the first few letters (the three 7/31/69 letters and "Debut" letter) from San Francisco BEFORE he had ever attacked anyone there? In other words, Z as a Vallejo resident would presumably have driven to San Francisco to mail a letter back to the Vallejo Times-Herald near his home. Seeking to throw LE off his scent?

Why would Z have left the Times-Herald out of the loop for his "Debut letter" in which he declares himself Zodiac and brags about "the good times I have had in Vallejo"? Regardless of where Z lived at the time, it almost seems to foreshadow Stine's murder two months later or at least indicate that an attack in San Francisco was not out of the question.

In addition to his referring to "the public park" in his call to Nancy Slover, Z writes in equally vague terms about killing "the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo" in his 7/31/69 letter to the SF Chronicle. It seems to me that Z is just as vague describing Vallejo as he is Presidio Heights.

I do, by the way, think Ed makes some very valid points in the initial post here. It does seem that Z was intimately familiar with Vallejo at least and the 40-45 minute delay in calling VPD is odd indeed. I'm reluctant, however, to read too much into Z's intentionally vague, often intentionally misleading letters as a clue to his place of residence. If we can't rule out a guy whose permanent residence was in Illinois, how do we rule out anyone within driving distance of Vallejo?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tommyt
Username: Tommyt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:39 am:   

Deoxys, maybe he lived in, or near, Vallejo and worked in SF, went to school in SF, etc. If he had a 1/2 a brain, he would not mail a letter from his own city. I think he was at least good enough to take strategic measures to do things that would not lead back to his city of residence.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 2:04 pm:   

Wrecknball, I believe Zodiac worked at the Rock Quarry on LHR because they use the same type of explosive Z used in his bus bomb. Ammonium Nitrate. But thats another thread. Btw, I forgot about the Pleasanton letter. Good thinking.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:02 pm:   

Tommyt...

Very possible. Z also could have lived in San Francisco and commuted to Vallejo for the same variety of reasons you mention. He was obviously at least somewhat familiar with both cities even if, as Ed theorizes, he was not familiar with Presidio Heights. I think any suspect with connections to BOTH cities should receive major bonus points.

Your point about mailing a letter from his own city is well-taken although I don't think that reasoning works for a large city like San Francisco. Even if the mailings identified Z as living in San Francisco (which they certainly don't), he would only be placing himself in a potential suspect list of 3/4 of million people or so.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   

Deoxys, howdy Amish ! If Z lived in SF, and cruised to Vallejo to do his thing, would he have not mailed his letters from Vallejo, to disguise his SF residence?

Tommy, the Pleasanton letter could have been mailed by anyone living in the Bay area---drive to Pleasanton for breakfast at Denny's, drop off the letter, and be back home for lunch!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Deoxys
Username: Deoxys

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   

Perhaps, Dave, perhaps, although it would seem there would be little need to disguise his residence amongst some 750,000 possible suspects (O.K... remove the ladies but we're still talking about several hundred thousand people).

If he was seeking to disguise his residence, why not mail all of his letters from Vallejo? Would we even be discussing the possibility of him living anywhere but Vallejo if he had done that? It would have taken no more effort than a Vallejo resident traveling to SF to mail the vast majority of his letters.

As I said, Ed makes some very relevant points here why Z may have lived in Vallejo. I think it would be insane, however, to conclude that he could not have lived in San Francisco when almost all of the letters were mailed from San Francisco, were directed to San Francisco newspapers and taunted the San Francisco Police Dept.(Z= ? SFPD= 0).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 8:54 am:   

LHR: Zodiac makes no phone call to that PD jurisdiction.(That we know of).

BRS: Makes a phone call the PD of that jurisdiction.

LB: Makes a phone call to the PD of that jurisdiction.

PH: No need to and no time to make a phone call, the cops are already there and Zodiacs running his ass off through PH park.

So, why no phone call at LHR jurisdiction? I say it's because he lived there.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:35 am:   

Solano County? That narrows it down somewhat.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:40 am:   

No, it really doesn't narrow it down that much.----He could have lived in Contra Costa, Solano, Napa, Sacramento, Sonoma, Marin, or for that matter, Alameda Counties.--Not to say SF County too.----Please explain how this narrows it down.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Socal
Username: Socal

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 7:25 am:   

I think he has to (or was from)Vallejo.

It is where it all started and he called the VPD. If he was from San Francisco, he would not have went to the trouble of calling the VPD. Anybody from San Francisco would think of the VPD as "small time" and an afterthought.

The Zodiac had to be from Vallejo, have some wierd problem with young people and a dislike for the VPD.

A local resident would have those traits.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:35 am:   

I think he must have been from Napa. Otherwise he would not have went to the trouble of calling the Napa PD.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:43 pm:   

V Dave, I think Doug was being sarcastic.

Btw Doug, did you find out anything more about Jennifer Holloman?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   

Nothing yet, Hawk. But I've been busy working on my book and haven't really had much time for poking into other things. I'm still not sure why he would have targeted that particular family.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 5:43 pm:   

Maybe Z lived in Benicia. He could have worked at the Benicia Arsenal, and commuted to Travis or Mare Island.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hawk
Username: Hawk

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   

Doug, your missing the whole picture. The tool box was found on the side of the Main road by some kids,Thus, they take it to the nearest house, that being the Hollowman house to see if it belonged to them. Ted K may not have been targeting anyone in particular but was just testing out a new bomb.

The question is, Did this bomb have anything green about it? Did it have Alluminum powder? Did they find any pieces with the letters FC on them?

Doug, I expect a full report on my desk first thing in the morning, If not, your ass is Fired! lol
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   

I assume the rest of me will still be gainfully employed!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 5:12 pm:   

If Z was from Vallejo, he must have travelled this route. Notice the name "Blood Alley".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Rout e_37
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:20 am:   

Ed,
Two questions for you if you can please!

How long would it have taken Z to drive from BRS to the phone booth where he made the call?

Z complained in his second letter that he did not leave the area as reported with "squealling tyres"
Have you any idea or can you reproduce the date and publication of this phrase?

Thanks if you can.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:06 pm:   

I just got back from Vallejo, and drove 2 different ways to check it out today (bear in mind it is quitting time on Friday afternoon too!): from Tuolumne & Springs I headed south to Solano, turned left and met back up with Springs again, then made a left on Columbus Parkway and turned around at BRS. In addition to traffic, I hit just about every red light there was and there is construction going on at Springs & Columbus Parkway to boot! Looks like new homes are going in soon. The distance is 4.0 miles and it took 9 minutes.

Coming back, I drove east on Columbus Parkway, made a right on Tennessee, then made a left on Tuolumne to Springs. It's 3.6 miles and it took just over 9 minutes to get there.

So, at midnight with little, if any, traffic (and fewer traffic lights), Z could easily have driven either route and been at the phone booth in perhaps 5-7 minutes. He was there 40 minutes later, so the question is: where was he and what was he doing for about 35 minutes?

In "More On Murder: Interview May Solve Shooting" (Vallejo Times Herald, 7-6-1969, p. 2), it says:

One "witness" who was not far away at the time did not see the shooting nor the killer's car--but he did hear the car drive into the parking lot. Then he heard what he thought was one gunshot, then a pause; another gunshot, then another pause, then rapid gunfire.

"This took place shortly after midnight," said a detective sergeant. "He couldn't hear any voices. But he heard the car take off at a high rate of speed, peeling rubber and cutting corners. He wasn't sure, but he thought it was headed toward the freeway."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J_eric
Username: J_eric

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:48 am:   

Ed, the reason your trip from BRS to Tuolomne and Springs Rd. took only 9 1/2 minutes is that you didn't stop to get rid of your gun, change your clothes (shirt at least), wash your hands (get rid o' that telltale gunpowder residue), and maybe even switch vehicles. Not to mention throwing more stuff in Sandy's car!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:25 am:   

Ed, you're a martyr for the cause, I didn't expect you to go to all that trouble, but thanks!

As far as the timing goes (and perhaps, even though unproven, that first car that pulled in behing Dee and Mike) it does in my view support the idea that Z was local or at least staying locally on that night.Asking where he was in between is quite legitimate, especially when we take Nancy Slover's comments into account, that he appeared to be reading from a prepared statement. Regardless, it does suggest that the call to police was not something he thought of on the spur of the moment but something he planned to do.The idea then that he would go searching around town for a phone booth(in a car that might have already been spotted) is unlikely.
It's seems far more reasonable that he had this location picked before hand and probably went somewhere changed clothes and car or even walked to this phone or at the very least stashed the car some distance away and walked to the phone.
That it took a whole 40 minutes to make it is highly suspicious in the circumstances.....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:43 am:   

The answer to the second question is quite interesting, don't know what it means but here's what I was wondering...
The story from the paper obviously relates to the testimony of George Bryant who came to the station on the previous evening 5-7-69 at 7.55pm
Upon reading the reports, I thought the use of the term "squealing tyres", was interesting.
Not that it was particularly peculiar I don't know (what do you guys think ?).Plus George is the only witness that used that term.
In any case the newspaper doesn't use that term, it used the term "peeling rubber".
But Zodiac reproduced Bryant's exact words while claiming that's what that particular paper printed. How is this to be explained? is it possible George spoke to someone locally?(Zodiac)

Or perhpas they was a second report in that paper sometime later that used that term. If not, you have to wonder.

I doubt the implication, but it has to be asked as to how George could hear what he thought were shots (louder than fireworks) from 800m away, when Mageau thought the sound was muffled.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:10 am:   

Actually, it was about 800 feet (244 meters) away, not 800 meters (2,625 feet or half a mile).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:38 am:   

My error! I guess muffled or not that's close enough to be able to distinguish, I don't know.

What do you make of the use of the term Ed? If that term wasn't used in the vallejo paper as Z claimed, could we not have a case here of either George Bryant in Z's company relating what he witnessed or Z hearing second hand what GB had told someone else?
If so, does it not have to mean that Z was either close to the case and/or a local. I'm sure Bryant didnt relate his story to anyone until the following day.
Could we have a slip here by Z, having read the paper and heard what Bryant said and got mixed up between "peeling rubber" and "Squealing tyres"
Is there another explanation?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:34 am:   

Sean, I think it's merely a case of Z putting something he'd read in the paper into his own words.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:44 am:   

Note that he said "as described in the Vallejo papers," as opposed to "as stated in the Vallejo papers." Zodiac's a nit-picky s.o.b., and I think he understood and appreciated the difference. The papers in question obviously weren't in front of him (in fact, nearly a month had passed) when he constructed that letter.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:38 am:   

Brian/Doug,
Those are exactly the points I'm making...If he did choose to put what he'd read in the paper into his own words, he coincidentaly used the same term "squealing tyres" as Bryant had stated.I don't really know if that's unusual, I've heard of "screeching tyres" but never the former.
The paper uses the term "peeling rubber" and Zodiac did go on to use that term later in relation to the Stine murder. The point being if that was a term he was familiar with, perhaps that's the one we should have expected him to use.
I could imagine Bryant recounting what he heard to friends/locals or them hearing that term second hand, perhaps also Z could have gotten mixed up between what he read in the papers and what he read in the report.
Just seems like an unusual term and suspiciously coincidental.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:15 am:   

Bryant states that the car left at high speed and burned rubber...and squealing it's tyres as it went along the road.Doesn't it sound like additional information that one would not necessarily pick up on/include, if you were making it up from memory?
Would you not have to have read that or heard it somewhere (in context)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 7:28 pm:   

Sean, people report things in their own words all the time. I wouldn't read anything more into Z's statement at all.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 5:13 am:   

Fair Enough!....I suppose it's a language thing, like I said, I've never heard that term before and thought it peculiar.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian_d
Username: Brian_d

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 3:56 pm:   

Sean, it was a term in fairly common usage back then among young people. Not really used these days, since it's not that intensive a 'car culture' anymore with $3.00 a gallon gas. Z has a history of using phraseology common to the young. It may be a key to his personality in that he may have preferred the company of younger folk as they are easier to impress than people of his own age group.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   

Sean, around here they also used the phrase "scuffing his donuts". Do they have a similar phrase for that in Ireland?

Yes, Z preferred stalking, relating to, and killing younger folk, based on all the evidence. He must have had an unhappy childhood.

Back on topic, yes, I believe Z was from the Vallejo, Benicia, Napa, Concord area. What are the odds, out of the first 4 victims, that he would strike 3 from Hogan High, and one from Vallejo High?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sean
Username: Sean

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 5:53 am:   

Thanks guys..fair points! I think the alternative terms over here would be "eating road/screeching tyres".
Interesting point on Z's phraseology Brian,perhaps you could expand on that, it would be a useful exercise.

Never heard of "scruffing his donuts" either Dave.
I couldn't even guess what the hell that means.
Yes, i think it's more than likely that Z was very familiar with this area.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:03 am:   

"Scuffing his donuts?" Dave, is that some kind of Central PA saying- maybe something Amish ("I dropped my donuts and thy horse scuffed them!")? I've never heard of it, either.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:44 am:   

"Scuffing your donuts" is the same thing as "patching out' or "laying rubber". The donuts are the tires! It's an east coast expression.

I think Z may have attended races at the Vallejo and Antioch Speedways. Remember, in the Stine letter, he talks about the police holding road races.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Muskogee
Username: Muskogee

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   

Ah! Thanks Dave! I was raised on the east coast, but I never heard that one!

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous"
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration