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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:48 pm:   

Since this is a political site I'm curious how people feel about the news today-that NSA had compiled millions of phone records of US citizens..only one phone company had the guts to stand up to the government. Qwest--
I believe the US is facing a huge constitutional challenge, and it will be interesting to see how citizens react..thoughts please?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   

I could care less if they listen to my phone conversations if it helps to catch the bad guys. People just don't get it,do we think that our government has the time and money to listen to all the John Q's in the USA ? No they are after the people who have threatend us, and I feel a lot safer knowing that !
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   

Will listening to your phone calls help catch the bad guys? If they are mining information of millions of innocent people you can bet they will find a nefarious use for it. We have a constitution, separation of powers, checks and balances and a court system set up to handle wiretaps--the president and his people have no right to break the law.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:18 pm:   

If you live in Mexico and have been for the last 11 years how can you use the word "we" when talking about the constitution of the United States of America? Haven't you removed yourself from it?
You should take interest in how the country you've adopted and reside in governs itself.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   

Amen, Johno!

I was going to respond to Fredcasa, but considering that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, I decided not to. Americans' personal information is bought and sold all of the time by solicitors, nonprofit organizations, etc., so what is so unconstitutional about the NSA looking for patterns in phone numbers? Contrary to what Fredcasa probably believes, the NSA isn't collecting names, Social Security numbers, addresses, or anything of the like.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:37 pm:   

Amen Johno!!Scott stop being his tool..First of all I'm an American, pay US taxes, vote in US elections, give to US charities--therfore I have as much right to comment on US matters as you Johno or you scott..got it? Living in another country is not unpatriotic..
Scott where did I say anything about ss numbers, or anything else--the report clearly stated they were looking for patterns and not listening to conversations. My question is-does NSA have this right under the constitution..I know Americans are living in fear and will give up their rights pretty easily it seems.
Scott don't try and put your words in my mouth..you don't know what you are talking about..
With the repubs running both chambers they won't challenge the prez-- it's pretty clear the NSA listening to calls without permission of FIZA court is against the law. after all that court was set up for exactly that purpose. Cheney is hell bent on getting more executive power and lessoning the power of Congress..he has stated that many times..They could have gone to congress and asked to change the fiza laws but they would rather break the law to expand their power..
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:54 pm:   

Fredcasa, you're the tool . . . a mouthpiece for every uninformed leftist out there. Got it?
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:02 pm:   

Amen Johno!!Scott stop being his tool..First of all I'm an American, pay US taxes, vote in US elections, give to US charities--therfore I have as much right to comment on US matters as you Johno or you scott..got it? Living in another country is not unpatriotic..
Scott where did I say anything about ss numbers, or anything else--the report clearly stated they were looking for patterns and not listening to conversations. My question is-does NSA have this right under the constitution..I know Americans are living in fear and will give up their rights pretty easily it seems.
Scott don't try and put your words in my mouth..you don't know what you are talking about..
With the repubs running both chambers they won't challenge the prez-- it's pretty clear the NSA listening to calls without permission of FIZA court is against the law. after all that court was set up for exactly that purpose. Cheney is hell bent on getting more executive power and lessoning the power of Congress..he has stated that many times..They could have gone to congress and asked to change the fiza laws but they would rather break the law to expand their power..
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:09 pm:   

Scott I speak for all the intelligent liberals out there--your prez hero seems to be slipping a bit in the polls--course he is higher rated than Dick..I believe he's around 18% now--even your conservative friends are leaving the sinking ship. But stick with your pals, just hold your breath.
Scott do you wear pom pom's when you cheer on Johno?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:37 pm:   

Fredcasa, you're the tool . . . a mouthpiece for every uninformed leftist out there. Got it?
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   

Scott it used to work calling people liberals--but no longer --after seeing the damage done to our country by your party--(conservatives used to stand for fiscal responsibility)--not any more-
The US is ready for a change--I just received my sample ballot--one sure vote for a democrat in Ca. do you vote?--probably not..too much effort.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   

Fredcasa, you're an idiot. First of all, yes, I vote. Secondly, you're making the assumption that I'm a conservative. The fact is you have no clue whatsoever what my political affiliations are. Lastly, I care a great deal about the Constitution of the United States, and stand by my conviction that the NSA accumulating phone numbers isn't illegal. You're the one claiming that the NSA's actions are forcing a "constitutional challenge," but in your typical uninformed fashion, you can't explain why.

On a lighter note, do you think that Mexico's decriminalization of drugs is going to help prevent that country from being one of the most violent in the world?
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 2:20 am:   

I could care less if they listen to my phone conversations if it helps to catch the bad guys. People just don't get it,do we think that our government has the time and money to listen to all the John Q's in the USA ? No they are after the people who have threatend us, and I feel a lot safer knowing that !

Wow. You're more likely of being hit by lightning than be a victim of some plot by "the people who have threated us."

On a lighter note, do you think those who have been accused of a felony should be allowed to own firearms? This isn't a frivolous question, it's the sort of thing which, under the proper "patriotic" guise, could come to pass. I know, for example, how much you believe in the so-called Patriot Act. Worry about violence in America before violence in Mexico, Scott. But I realize you don't understand the difference, and I'm not wasting any more time on you. In fact, I'm done with you.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 3:56 am:   

Bye.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:26 am:   

Scott--assuming is pretty easy isn't it? Just what you did in your first post to me--remember?..you "assumed" many things that just weren't true..such as NSA collecting SS numbers etc..trying to say what I believe with no knowlege whatsoever. Jumping on the "Johno" bandwagon--that I have no right to comment on US matters because I live in a foreign country..Haven't seen an apology from either of you on that matter/Amen
You seem to think that because non profit businesses and solicitors buy and sell personal information, that the US govt. has the right to do the same. Then you say you care a great deal about the constitution?? Make up your mind..
I have to laugh at your assumption about "my typical uninformed fashion" as if we have debated long hours--instead of a few passages on this site.
I think the constitutional challenge comes from both actions divulged in the past couple of weeks..first is listening to phone conversations of americans phoning out of the country--totally illegal as it bypasses fiza courts,which are set up for this situation--does the prez have the right to break the law?--seems like a constitutional problem to me. It would be one thing if the congress hadn't addressed this issue-but they did. The prez could have (A.) gone to the court up to 72 hours after the wiretap to get permission, or (B.) gone to congress to modify the law if he thought it was too outdated. Congress would make any changes needed to fight terrorism. Instead he chose to break the law--period--if you believe in our constitution that should concern you.
The second story is less clear to me--if you read my original post I'm soliciting the views of others to get a feel for how people feel about it. I don't like it but I'm not sure about it's constitutionality/In the concluding sentence both NSA actions are included. Hence a constitutional crisis is possible IMO>
I know you have difficulty with comprehension so I'm giving you a little slack.
To illustrate that--what recent decriminalization of drugs in Mexico are you talking about? And is the US non violent? Mexico has a huge drug trade with the US..seems to me the US has the drug problem..
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   

Fredcasa, you're the tool . . . a mouthpiece for every uninformed leftist out there. Got it?

That's the one that burned me -- and it's not just an attack against you. Nothing like stereotyping tens of millions of people to make a so-called point. Ask the entirely informed conservative egotist to show you the error of your ways. Keep it up Fredcasa! (I wouldn't hold my breath for an apology from either.)

Bye is sure as hell right.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   

George--then he says I don't know his political leanings..like he's a liberal posting that statement. Guess he went bye bye--people like him have no staying power, especially when they know they are wrong--thanks for the support..
As to an apology--never expected to get one//
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   

I don't want my personal constitutional rights to be infringed, especially by an administration that was elected by a non majority, pro war, pseudo religious, right wing conservative vote! I thought they were elected to represent us, not spy on us, but I guess I'm just naieve.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:00 am:   

Hey Dave-guess this makes you one of the uninformed liberals Scott was talking about--welcome to the club! PS don't call me--the NSA is listening.
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:16 am:   

Fredcasa,

Scott only went bye-bye from * me *. Actually, he and I agree on ninety percent (or more) of the Zodiac mystery. In this thread, I'd posted a simulacrum of his style; examples of which may be found in the archives. In effect, he writes a few sentences or a few paragraphs and then stops. At which point he often says, in effect, "I'll be back when someone actually makes sense," "I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you/ you people," or violent remarks along the lines of the "whiterabbit found" thread, which was lost during the hacking and which had rapidly been edited anyway, but enough remember Scott's posts from that thread -- including a long-term poster who said Scott came off as "a dangerous man" -- to make their own decisions. Hell, I have plenty of black marks as well. The most famous of which was induced by a malted beverage of Old Latrobe. "33" so to speak; Rolling Rock beer. (My sober, meandering, non-linear posts aren't exactly a point of pride to me, either.)

Just as an FYI, Scott's actually an important poster, and has been posting since early 2001, I think. One of my very favorite threads was started by Scott. (The thread is a long one.) Another reason the thread is included is that, in those days, Scott was convinced vehemently that Allen was the Zodiac. Over time, he completely altered this point of view, and I believe that damned few would do the same. That takes balls.

Scott has now for at least a couple of years believed that the Zodiac was an unsub. So do I. So do many of the best who have ever posted here. Eventually, this becomes a problem because if one believes that the Zodiac killer was an unsub, it means, sooner or later, that you're going to have to question theorists and some of their beliefs. This is NOT easy! (With a few exceptions.) Ed can do this because he has always officially been a researcher who in theory doesn't have a suspect. A few other people can ask a lot of questions of major theorists as well, but they need to be Zodiac notables of some fashion and at least sometimes need to ask (or factually inform) without their accustomed taunting, nyah-nyah posting style.

Sorry, Fredcasa, I went on too long (one of my many faults as a poster) but too keep it fair, Scott has more than paid his dues and he's been around a long time. (None of which excuses discourtesy, and I admire your relative restraint.)

Dave, you and I agree and disagree on many topics. The most impressive thing which I believe you've spent time on is the Cutshall/Allen murders. You've done much legwork, good going. (And what was that about a possible serial killer victim discovered near Hagerstown? Is it a relatively new case? If nothing else, I can take digital photos of the exact area in question where the body was found.)

NSA spying on Americans. Well, this is one of those situations, in my opinion, in which the average Joe doesn't really have much of a say. Scott's right about phone numbers and addresses being sold and exchanged wholesale and on a daily basis. NSA does whatever it wants to do. In theory, NSA scares the hell out of me but all in all, I'm glad it exists.

A quick anecdote to the best of my memory: my uncle, a long-time employee (going on forty years) of a defense contracting company, once entered a room (I don't remember where, but I can ask) where he was expected. Uncle Ray also had (and still has) a TS clearance. After no more than two steps into that room, blinding lights flashed from seemingly everywhere. Why? Because, despite a TS clearance, my uncle wasn't employed by NSA and the flashing lights were a warning to those who were -- a stranger was in their midst.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   

"I know you have difficulty with comprehension so I'm giving you a little slack."

Insulting my intelligence just shows how ignorant YOU are, Fredcasa. Furthermore, I'm not the only one making assumptions here, now am I? You think that I'm a conservative and that the President is my hero. Nothing could be further from the truth, but you've made the assumptions anyway. You assume that I probably don't vote, which isn't true, and you assume that I don't have very good comprehension skills, which also isn't true. Nor am I the one who started in with the name calling; you did, Fredcasa, by labeling me as a "tool." Nor was I the one using insulting language, by asking things like, "Do you wear pom pom's when you cheer on Johno?" (sic) Remember those things, Fredcasa?

George, when I said: "Fredcasa, you're the tool . . . a mouthpiece for every uninformed leftist out there . . ." I wasn't making a blanket statement about liberals, or saying that if you are a liberal you are uninformed. I was simply saying that there are a lot of uninformed liberals and that Fredcasa is acting as a mouthpiece for them. That's a far cry from "stereotyping tens of millions of people to make a so-called point." I'm fully aware that there are a lot of uniformed conservatives, moderates, and Libertarians, too.

Quite honestly, I've no interest in contrived popularity contests, and am more than willing to speak my mind regardless of those I may alienate with my comments. I didn't become a member of this board to bolster my social status; I became a member to get at the truth, if at all possible. I alienated a lot of people when I turned my back on Allen as a suspect, and some of these people have been gunning for me ever since, but you know what, I don't give a damn, and that's what separates me from 95% of the people who post on this message board.

With regard to the White Rabbitt issue, I met him in SF a few years ago and was essentially the ONLY one who gave him the time of day. I drove him around from location to location, paid for several of his meals, and helped him out of a sticky situation before I returned to Colorado. And how did he repay me? By denying everything he ever said to the group of us, by making threats against me, telling me that The Family was gunning for me and that I'd better never show my face in SF again or else I'd be dead, etc. So, in my typical fashion, I told him that if I ever ran into him again I was going to kick his ass. This wasn't an idle threat, George, and it accomplished its desired effect; I haven't heard from him since, or any other member of the modern "Family." If you think I was wrong for saying those things to him, well, that is your prerogative, but don't question my actions unless you fully understand my motives.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:43 pm:   

George, check under General Discussion-Crimes for info on the new case near Hagerstown. Photos would be great. If you can't post them, email them to me. Thanks......Dave
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 7:32 pm:   

well Scott you entered the discussion by saying "Amen Johno" after he told me I had no right to comment on US matters..because I live abroad..this is very insulting to begin with--he questioned my patriotism and you jumped on the bandwagon..1st assumption by you---you supported him with no knowledge of my situation..then you go on to tell him you were going to answer me but since I didn't know what I was talking about you didn't--2nd insult to me.
3rd my initial post was a question to members to ask how they feel about the actions of NSA..neither Johno nor you responded to that-just insults. "Contrary to what fred probably believes NSA isn't collecting phone numbers, SS numbers"etc--where on earth did that come from--an assumption by you. You called me an idiot twice, a mouthpiece for uninformed liberals..I speak for myself thank you, I never stated that looking for patterns was unconstitution--yet you claimed I did.
You never answered my point that listening to phone conversations without the federal courts permission is against the law. IMO this is a constitutional problem..all you did was insult me from your first post--now you complain about me insulting you?? What a laugh.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   

George--thank you for your comments--I agree Scott has added a lot to the Z board..too bad he didn't read my original post which was a simple question about the NSA. I withdraw the pom pom comment-but when people tell me I have no right to discuss my country it burns me up.
I have no issue with Scott concerning Allen//
Ok--NSA listening in to conversations--there is a court set up to handle just this situation..fiza..so why did Bush/Cheney bypass this court? That is central to my question about the constitution..they had 3 choices on how to proceed, use fiza, which allows them to tap and then go to court within 72 hours for the court order-which btw was granted almost all the time., go to congress and ask them to modify the law if they felt it wasn't up to date, or break the law. Cheney has said he wants to expand the powers of the president..that is why they broke the law. They are challenging congress's powers and separation of powers..No man is above the law--period//
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:34 pm:   

Scott,

We both have quick tempers and tend to be forceful when we write. I won't truckle but I do apologize if I misread your quote. I've both liberal and conservative views. To get rid of the nonsense I'll address what you said and I hope that can be the end of it.

You're right. There are uninformed American's of every political stripe. Word for word, I understand what you mean. My initial reaction was that the "leftist" remark was unnecessary and was intended for more than one person; that is, it was intended for anyone who might disagree with your point of view. And I guarantee you that several of my beliefs are more conservative than anyone else's on this board. I really don't see "leftist" in this thread's initial post; what I see is one specific question about the NSA.

I also don't give a damn as to contrived popularity contests; if i did, Tom would have booted me early in 2003. (Unless you mean a popularity contest in terms of suspects.) I also speak my mind and am cowed by no one.

One important thing I admit I didn't know. I'm sure the posts are there, and I believe you, but I didn't know that a lot of people were gunning for you after you changed your Allen stance. That really is news to me.

With regard to the White Rabbitt issue, I met him in SF a few years ago and was essentially the ONLY one who gave him the time of day.
I know this, i've seen the pictures, and you are correct.

I drove him around from location to location, paid for several of his meals, and helped him out of a sticky situation before I returned to Colorado.
I also know this, as I well remember it from the board.

And how did he repay me? By denying everything he ever said to the group of us, by making threats against me, telling me that The Family was gunning for me and that I'd better never show my face in SF again or else I'd be dead, etc.

Yes, I remember it well. In fact, I was one of the first to high-five you after those threads were deleted.

So, in my typical fashion, I told him that if I ever ran into him again I was going to kick his ass. That wasn't exactly what you said. It was more along the lines of "I'll kick your ass so far up you'll have to unbutton you shirt to !

This wasn't an idle threat, George. I know it wasn't and it's what drew the "dangerous" remark.

and it accomplished its desired effect; I haven't heard from him since, or any other member of the modern "Family." So far, so good.

If you think I was wrong for saying those things to him, well, that is your prerogative, but don't question my actions unless you fully understand my motives Of course it's not what you said; it's the frequency and the way you said it. Do you really believe that a functionally illiterate burnout on the wrong side of fifty with rainbow hair has the authority to order a hit?

As to questioning motives. Glass houses, Scott.

Dave: Cool, I'll give it a shot within a couple of days.
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:37 pm:   

Are we in the third grade here?

If I ever gave you the impression that you weren't entitled to your opinion, Fredcasa, then I truly apologize. I admit that I assumed you weren't an American citizen, which is why I found it odd that you'd want to discuss a subject that's essentially purely American. I stand corrected. Can we move along now?

I stand by my conviction that if people's information can be used for commercial gain, then it certainly can be used for national defense, especially in this post 9/11 era. That's my take on the original subject of this thread. Fair enough?
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Scott_b
Username: Scott_b

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:57 pm:   

"Do you really believe that a functionally illiterate burnout on the wrong side of fifty with rainbow hair has the authority to order a hit?"

That's an extremely accurate way of putting it, George. The answer is no, I don't, and never did. I agree that I overreacted in that situation, even though I still contend that it was somewhat justifiable. Not everything that went on between Rabbitt and I happened on the message board, and I allowed that to spillover onto the message board. That's my mistake. What does this have to do with anything that I've said in this particular thread? And why the sudden and vehement turn against me?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:13 am:   

"...only one phone company had the guts to stand up to the government. QWest--"

C'mon, Qwest isn't standing up to the government on some belief in taking the moral high ground. It's afraid of customer lawsuits for giving out their information.
Under then-CEO Joe Nacchio they were fined $1.5 million for "slamming" practices in 2000. Then in June of 2002 Nacchio resigned for being under SEC investigation for inflating revenue of 2001-2002. He was the initial Qwest CEO to turn down the NSA request because his layers knew the dam was going to burst and they were afraid of additional lawsuits by customers. The SEC fined Qwest $250 million for fraud. In 2003 the US Department of Justice launched it's own investigation into improper accounting practices. Because of the criminal and ethics investigations and the accounting scandal Qwest settled for $400 million a shareholders lawsuit in 2005. When CEO Richard Notebaert replaced Nacchio, those same Qwest lawyers advised him not to comply with the NSA request in 2004 because they feared potential customer lawsuits over giving out their phone records would bankrupt the company.
Qwest still services secret government contracts and Notebaert is still buddies with George W. Bush who appointed him to sit on the President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory committee.
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:46 am:   

Scott--fair enough-I guess i can understand that you didn't know I was from the US..I've been posting here a lot the past few years and thought people knew that.
You believe the Govt. can gather info on us--that's what I was trying to elicit from people here.
I apologize for the pom pom bit--I was P'O'd about Johno's post. Ok the end.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:49 am:   

I wonder what they think when they listen in on a White Rabbit phone call...
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Fredcasa
Username: Fredcasa

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:59 am:   

Johno-I guess you didn't realize I'm a US citizen living abroad..I have every right to discuss US matters.
As to Qwest-I'm aware they have had a lot of legal problems, fraud charges, etc. Whatever their motive for turning down the Govt..they did it-after my post stories came out with other phone companies saying they didn't give the info either--so who knows the truth about this. I sure don't/ Since I wrote the original post other scandels have taken over the news--the massacre in Iraq, the FBI raid of the house building, the Watergate poker stuff etc..things move so fast now-also the confirmation of the new CIA head..this doesn't change the original question--does NSA have the right to listen to conversations and collect pattern data.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 9:25 am:   

...or a Carl phone call about 3 and 4 toed Dragons....
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George
Username: George

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 5:22 pm:   

Sent you an e-mail, Scott.

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