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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 6:15 pm:   

Since no one has started a religion topic yet let me begin. Lot's of books and speculation and major films about Jesus lately as he is a hot topic. A big Mel Gibson film on his crucifiction, a big Ron Howard film on his relationship to Mary Magdeline based on a hugely popular book, a new book coming out from someone who claims to be his descendent of that alleged union. Many Holy Grail themed books and Knights of the Templer associated books in the past 20 years but was there really such a man?
Did Jesus really exist?
Was he one of the many alleged Messiahs and prophets of the time who were merely mortal but drew a following because of their charisma and intellegence?
Or was he as has been written in the New Testament long after his death the real deal and indeed the Son of God on earth?
Or is he and his teachings merely an amalgamation and composite of stories from religions that existed before Christianity?
Not much in the historical record of his existence except for the biblical scrolls of Q and the New Testament written long after his death and in the Koran written 600 years after his death. Vitually nothing from Roman, Egyptian, Jewish or Greek historians who lived during his time and no official record on him from the Roman government during his time.
Yet a major religion sprang up because of him but didn't for the countless other prophets and messisahs so it seems there may have been something to him after all.
Did Jesus really exist?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:23 am:   

Within a century of the Crucifixion, Jesus was mentioned by Josephus, Suetonius and Tacitus; Suetonius, it must be pointed out, spoke of someone during the reign of Claudius named "Chrestus," which is apparently a proper name, not a title (although it's always possible he heard or assumed "Christ" was a name and spelled it "Chrestus").
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 4:49 am:   

Christus, Christos and Chrestus would all have been pretty much the same thing. I don't think anyone would have said "Christ" by itself, without the masculine ending.

I think the consensus is that the copyists got hold of Josephus and embellished the reference, but I've no doubt it was there from the beginning, in one form or another.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:50 am:   

Yes, Jesus really existed. He was born without sin and died without sin. He was in the form of man and had to endure pain and temptations like us all, but he never gave into temptation and died for our sins so that we can be saved. There's no documentation of him ever having a relationship with a woman. He existed alright. I'm a Lutheran and I don't know much about any other religion. This is actually a great thread!
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Ubpclaw
Username: Ubpclaw

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   

Jesus was a cult leader and no more the son of a so called god than anyone else on this board
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   

What are you so angry about? Where's your proof?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   

Strip away the divinity and the blood-sacrifice aspects, get the Greeks out of it, and you're left with a hell of a Jewish reformer.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   

Looking at Jesus 2 millennia later, yes, He was, in a sense, a cult leader. And just 2 men, Jesus and his cousin, John the Baptist (he prepared the way for Jesus; Matt 3:1-12, Mark 1:1-8, Luke 3:1-18, John 1:6-28), forever changed the history of this planet. If He was not the Son of God, that's one incredible legacy. I can't offhand think of any other men on this planet born in a backwater province who were not heard of outside their locality during their own lifetimes who have ever influenced history like they did.

Regardless of whether one chooses to believe He was the Son of God or not, He said many wise things, such as, "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt 22:39). If only more people thought that way, the world would be a much happier place.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   

Jesus is just allright with me !
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Wrecknball
Username: Wrecknball

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   

A little off topic, but Mel Gibson got arrested for DUI in Malibu early this morning.

So now I wonder....is this what Jesus would have done?
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:47 pm:   

Jesus apparently didn't have anything against drinking. Of course in those days you didn't ride a donkey after drinking for fear you might take a tumble, which gave rise to the expression "drunk off his ass."
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   

The first miracle attributed to Jesus as found in the New Testament was making water into wine.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:01 pm:   

I've often wondered where some Christian sects get the notion that it's irreligious to drink alcohol. I had an English co-worker who told me that he doesn't use the expression "merry Christmas" because "merry" implies drinking, and drinking, to those of his denomination, was sinful. I pointed out the fact that there is nothing in the testaments, old or new, prohibiting it, and that Jesus appeared to encourage it, to no avail. What chance does truth have against dogma?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   

I guess having a cup or two from the old flagon of wine was perfectly acceptable in biblical accounts but downing the whole jug to induce drunkeness was considered vulgar.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   

Agreed, but vulgar and sinful are two different things.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   

I've often wondered that myself, Doug. Some try to rationalize it by saying that it wasn't really wine, but that it was grape juice (like fun; how does one prevent grape juice from fermenting into wine without modern technology???). In Revelation 17:2 (NIV), we find:

With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.

While this passage is symbolic, it clearly states that wine is intoxicating. How can one get drunk from grape juice??? We also find Noah getting drunk from wine (Genesis 9:21), and while it doesn't specifically say that he was drunk, Lot was unaware that his daughters seduced him and became pregnant by him (Genesis 19:30-38). He had to have been pretty drunk not to remember that he had sex with both of his daughters.

Paul urged Timothy to drink wine "because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses" (1 Timothy 5:23). Grape juice won't do anything for illness, but wine sure will (alcohol kills bacteria after all). Paul also said that some would teach that certain foods must not be eaten, and that such teachings are demonic in nature (1 Timothy 4:1-5); this can reasonably be extended to what one drinks as well, which would therefore include wine. How can one who places their faith in the Bible therefore reject wine when that very same Bible tells us otherwise?

What it comes down to is that there is no Biblical justification for the probition of alcohol; quite the contrary, those who claim to be Christians and claim to base their faith on the Bible have chosen to ignore the fact that Jesus drank wine and Paul urged us to drink wine as well. It's sad, but very often these same people actually have no clue what the Bible teaches and rely on the questionable teachings of others instead of reading for themselves. It makes no sense to me how people question almost anything except the religious dogma they have been indoctrinated with, which I have found is on occasion at odds with what the Bible actually teaches.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 4:20 am:   

Jesus didn't have anything against drinking wine with dinner, but find one place in the bible where Jesus was playing drinking games? All jokes aside, You'll never find where Jesus got drunk, it doesn't matter who else the bible says got drunk, Jesus did not. I went to a Lutheran school from k-8 grade, so 9 years of everyday bible studies and church on wednesday mornings and on Sundays, I know a little bit about Jesus, but don't get me wrong there is alot I don't know.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:17 am:   

Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:20 am:   

Those are quotes from the bible, I didn't add a word. I'm not judging anybody, just trying to make a point about drunkeness.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:29 am:   

I believe wine was the drink of choice with dinner, back in the day, you'll not find anything saying alcohol is prohibited. It didn't say Jesus had moonshine or whiskey with dinner.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:52 am:   

Jesus apparently played at least one drinking game at the wedding in Cana. After the guests had drunk everything in sight he produced quite a bit more, and better stuff than they had previously been imbibing.

Interesting that Paul fills in all the details that Jesus himself couldn't be troubled with!
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 9:03 am:   

Man, imagine if they had had the agave plant...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   

The early Christians supposedly had the agape plant. At least when they weren't killing one another.
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   

In (at least) one of the gospels Jesus does tell his diciples that they are called 'wine bibbers' by others so apparently they drank quite often.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 9:15 am:   

I don't have my pocket concordia with me - is beer mentioned in the Bible? It is the oldest man made drink. The Pharoahs were big into keggers.
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Yarbchris
Username: Yarbchris

Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   

Numbers 21:16

From there they continued on to Beer, the well where the LORD said to Moses, "Gather the people together and I will give them pure rocky mountain spring water."
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   

And Lo! Moses beheld a burning bush, for the daughters of Abraham assayed to douse their cigarettes in the toilet.

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