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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:25 pm:   

Continued from here.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 1:08 pm:   

Bookworm are you familar with the man who claims to have decoded the JBR ransom note and says it was written by a person with cancer. He was on CNN last nite and explained some things he saw in the note that he thought was curious the word "Victory". I think he has written a book on the case.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 5:56 pm:   

I'm begining to think that they aren't even going to fly him to Boulder.
If they have a case against him how come they are cooling their heels about bringing there? Is this case totally unraveling?
I know they have 10 days to do it but it's been two days since he waived extradition and he's still in LA.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:05 pm:   

I heard on the news tonight that they'll be taking him to Boulder tomorrow.

I wouldn't be too quick to discount his confession. I can recall having quite a conversation with Inspector Repetto of SFPD back in 1996 regarding pedophiles--the subject of Arthur Allen had come up, and got steered toward pedophiles in general. Repetto once worked the Pedo detail, and one thing he said amazed him was the ease with which a good investigator could get a confession out of one. Evidently they carry a huge burden of guilt, and all one has to do is offer a bit of empathy in order to get them to spill their guts.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   

Appartently Captain Highpants has sold his book and movie rites to Larry Garretson so his kids can attend college. Also on Friday People magazine will have a prison interview with Karr.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   

Pedo detail. What a horrible job that must be. Imagine what they have to deal with.

Captain Highpants. That's a good one.
When I saw him doing the Bangkok Perp Walk in his oversized clothes I thought he was doing an impression of the character Scott Carey from the movie The Incredible Shrinking Man.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 8:22 pm:   

Yes, but Douglass, I think we're talking here about a "false confessor", not someone who really committed this murder. "False confessors" are a dime a dozen. He's obviously been an 'obsessed fan' of this case for many, many years. His current confession, made in Thailand (if accurate) so far as we've heard, is just plain false, and at odds with the facts.

Also the 'confessions' about the case he made to that other Polly Klass murder "groupie" lady back in 2001 seem patently false. The tape recordings of it, with his fantasy-style gushings, are just now surfacing. He claims he met JonBenet at the Ramsey Christmas party the day before that fateful Christmas 1996- NOT! Their Christmas party happened 2 days before Christmas. Not only that, but EVERYONE who was at that Ramsey Christmas party was identified & investigated 'with a fine-tooth comb'. And guess what? John Karr was nowhere near that party.

Plus his own ex-wife, who hates everything about him, swears he was with her & their young sons, on that Christmas day- 1,400 miles away from Boulder, CO.! She also has at least one photo of him on that same Christmas day to prove it.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:36 am:   

I don't know, Vscantu. I don't believe the ex-wife has a photo of him--I believe it's a photo of the rest of the family, without him, which the family is taking to be proof that he wasn't in Colorado; a strange take on things, if you ask me.

I'm pretty sure the Colorado authorities have statements of his giving details about the crime scene that they've held back. You combine that with the handwriting and you might have a case even without a DNA match.
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Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 6:29 am:   

Vscantu, I compared the two because of the same amount of letters in S.B.T.C and K.A.R.R. Also, if you flip that 9 you have BTK's address bracketed by a 1 and 3, the unlucky 13 found in Rader's victim addresses. Bangkok, Thailand-Karr; BTK.

There was a "Knight Ridder" Newspaper from Denver that was just bought out this year that carred a lot of the Ramsey stories.
http://kcbs.com/pages/29285.php?

Jim t, I didn't see that, I wish you had more information on it. I read a lot of the books but not all of them.

Douglas, I'm surprised they're not saying he took the pictures that's why he's not in them.

On Nancy Grace, they were saying they may not even charge him because of the DNA problem.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   

I read something on MS-NBC today that got my antennae up. The Thai sex doctor said Karr had begun Castration procedures.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 7:04 pm:   

He landed in Colorado today. They let him change from jail jump suit to his red shirt and tie "teacher outfit". It sounds like Boulder had just started the investigation of him. Maybe they should have done that first.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   

Tommorrow nite on Nancy Grace Wendy Hutchings, the women who taped Karr's telephone converstions 5 years ago in Petaluma will be on. Tonite she was on Larry Kings show along with Karrs first wife Quintenna who talked about how controlling and manipulative he was. Karr seems to have alot of different sports cars, a Delorean, Porsche, Fiat X/19, and a Jaguar. Also on ABC they had Karrs former wife's family who said Karr signed his letters SBTC.
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Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 8:24 am:   

Jim t, regarding Captain Underpants, maybe Karr wanted to look like Mr. Rogers.

Here's the official Wendy Hutchens website:
http://www.wendyhutchens.com/
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:56 am:   

Is anybody from down south? I was wondering if anyone had heard of this quote "shall be the conquer" before. I was thinking it may be a regional thing.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   

This is one sick pup. Looks like he was not only a pedo, but a sociopath to boot.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   

Colette--"Teacher Outfit". I like that description.

I wonder if sick pup ever owned any guns.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   

Who needs guns when your victim is a six-year-old?
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   

Yes, but who knows what "Teach" was doing on the side?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 8:46 pm:   

That booking photo by Boulder PD looks like they made him hold a flashlight under his face. With the dark background and below and upward lighting it looks like a tv horror show host from the 50's and 60's or Karloff in the old 1931 Frankenstein movie posters.

This photo is going to end up on T-shirts like a Charles Manson picture.
http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/08/25/image6e02 68e1-ffc4-4996-be6b-51cb82a25b66.jpg
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   

What evidence do you think is the most damming: the confession from Sinapore, the hish school yearbook writing, Wendy's taped conversation with Karr, Karrs first wife stories or the DA's Boulders evidence that they wont allow the public to see?
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:32 pm:   

I've lived down south for 4 years and never heard Shall Be The Conquerer.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   

On Nancy Grace tonight acorrding to a person from AMW Ed Miller the Boulder DA's strongest evidence is the E-mails Karr sent to the college professor concerning info only the killer would know. A bracelet given to Jon Bennet engraved 12/26/96 in roman numerals and where the ramseys kept the info on his bonus, the desk or drawer where it was kept. The bracelet info was included in the autopsy report which is available on-line and the bonus info could have been leaked accidently to Karr when the professor exchanged E-mails. who knows what agenda the professor could have, He is writing a book about the case and he has other suspects that he claimed were responsable.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 6:42 am:   

I don't trust that professor. I think he leaked info to this nut that he was prevy to because of his relationship with the Ramseys. If all they have on Carr is his own words, then they have nothing!!
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 8:56 am:   

Again, think Henry Lee Lucas.
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Jim_t
Username: Jim_t

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 9:10 am:   

The handwriting experts see strong resemblences in Karrs writing of certain letters that match the ransom note and the word "Counqueror" is miss-spelled with an E instead of an O at the end. Karr also makes misspellings in his writings but other handwriting experts say Karrs writing of certain letters excludes him because they dont match the ransom note. Either the beer mug is half full or half empty, when its comes to comparsions in Karrs writing and the ranson note.
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Bookworm
Username: Bookworm

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   

Jim t,
"What evidence do you think is the most damming"
Whatever puts John Karr at the scene of the murder. It could be a lot of circumstantial evidence, but DNA would be most important. But the DA may not rush into prosecuting Karr if they don't think they can win. IMHO
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   

I would like to see just one of his letters that has SBTC on it. That is very odd if it is true. I will stick to my thoughts that he was never in Boulder,never met Jon Benet.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:45 pm:   

Melissa and Larry Shotts, the parents of Karr's first wife Quintana Ray claim that Karr sent Quintana four letters that were signed SBTC. They have not produced these letters and it is not known if they even still exist and it is also not known if the letters were sent before or after the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
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Colette
Username: Colette

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   

Dave, the "teacher outfit" comes from Karr's own words. He wanted to dress like "a teacher" on the plane.
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   

They are announcing on cnn that Carr's DNA did not match the unidentified DNA found on JonBent
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Scott_ben
Username: Scott_ben

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   

They are announcing on cnn that Carr's DNA did not match the unidentified DNA found on JonBent
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:11 pm:   

Public Defender say charges dropped. Will not be charged.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:24 pm:   

I guess that means he didn't do it.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:19 pm:   

They could have resolved this back in April when he first became under suspiscion in the case. Investegators could have got a sample of his DNA from a coffee cup and eliminated him.
Somebody killed JonBenet Ramsey. During this guy's obsession and research into her murder did he come across some information that led him to who really did kill her?
They could have eliminated him as a suspect by the non-matching DNA and no evidence of him ever being in Boulder at the time of the murder but still questioned him on what he may have stumbled upon in his research into her murder without all the international dog and pony show.
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   

My guess is they may have secured, in addition to the DNA, some additional proof from the families that he was not in Boulder, but, as suspected, with his wife/children that Christmas.
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Oklahoma_mike
Username: Oklahoma_mike

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:10 pm:   

They never had a case. The entire 'case' was information in e-mails that the Boulder authorities did not think had ever leaked out. Said e-mails supplied by a person who 2 years ago had already fingered a different 'suspect' in a documentary film. So the entire thing was based on the assumption that there are facts that have not leaked (dubious considering how many former people who worked the case have written books and talked to agents and all manner of 'reporters' on and off the record for almost 10 years) and these facts were in e-mails supplied by a source who had cried wolf at least once before.
Everyone wondered what evidence the Boulder DA was holding: it turned out to be nothing. Just what they have had in this case from minute one.
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Seagull
Username: Seagull

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   

Karr is to be extradited back to Sonoma County to answer charges there. The original charge is a misdemeanor child porn count, punishable by one year county jail time. He has already served 6 months which with time off for good behavior is about all he would serve. He will have to register as a sex offender once he is convicted and sentenced. I think that was what he was trying to avoid when he skipped on the charge in the first place. He'll never be able to teach again and that's a good thing.
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James78
Username: James78

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   

Who here thinks that one of the parents still may be guilty? I'll say I don't know,because I would be lying if I said I did.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   

I agree with Mike. I was one supporting the DA saying there is no way they would charge Karr without some evidence we weren't hearing about. Apparently, they had nothing. I'm disappointed.

I'm going back to my orginial belief. Parents.

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:50 pm:   

Yes, I was expecting much more than it turns out they actually had. But I wouldn't completely turn my back on Karr. He's confessed; he's a known pervert; his handprinting is quite close (which by itself isn't much, but in conjunction with the other circumstances carries great weight); and there's that S.B.T.C. thing. And I'll be waiting to see if his family can come up with any kind of alibi for him, apart from a Christmas photo where he's not present.
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Hallowtim
Username: Hallowtim

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 7:15 pm:   

Yep, they aren't even going to charge him....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210831,00.html
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   

Seagull--I am glad he will be going back to Sonoma County to answer his behavior. I hope they check him out against many unsolved cases there, including his DNA and alibis about where he was.---I would like to know where he was on 8-10-04. It's documented that he left Honduras or Nicaragua on 8-3 or 8-4 04. Lets pin his wherabouts down for that time period.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 8:27 am:   

Johno wrote of (referring to John Mark Karr): "During this guy's obsession and research into her murder did he come across some information that led him to who really did kill her?"

To quote Star Trek's 'Scotty'; "Not bloody likely."

This guy Karr is a nut-job from day one. Yes, he did tons of research & obsessing on the case. But does he have the art of criminal deduction down to a "science"? I think not. I wouldn't trust a guys' judgement who has proven himself such a wacko in a case like this.

Sandy wrote:

" I will stick to my thoughts that he was never in Boulder,never met Jon Benet."

Cha-ching! Good guess, Sandy. You picked out the newest "Singapore Slinger" exactly. Way to go.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 8:37 am:   

How 'bout a new nickname for this clown? Anyone got any suggestions?
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 9:07 am:   

Wow. Boulder D.A. Mary Lacy is just now giving her press conference.

Let me be the first person to say it,

"Mary, you're fired!"
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 2:10 pm:   

The "Bangkok (insert joke here)".
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   

Vscantu, How about a nickname like BBB for Big Boulder Blunder ? I have been into this case from the first time I saw it on TV. I never ever thought the family was involved in any way,once I read about how she was killed.Not long before her killing ,we had two murders that peeked my interest.I am looking at all female unsolved crimes,trying to find any that could be a Z crime. As you probably know I am very sure Z is still doing his thing and perghaps did change his MO. I remember reading that Z may try a few trial runs before going after a victim of choice.On Memorial day weekend May27th 94 a 14yr old girl was killed in her home between 5:15pm and 6:45pm in CastroValley Ca. A window was broken from inside the home. Her father was the person who found her body in the bathroom.A dark skined man had told her father a week or so before that he had his daughter. That was untrue because she was ok at that time.Her father told me that the man had a strange way of saying daughter. The discription fit the man in my picure who is my suspect.A few weeks before that girl was killed, another young girl was killed in S.F. in her home. This time the killer used the ploy of a Fuller brush man (found at the front door).I thought that these could be connected. The window glass being broken in the first crime made me think about the Z because in most of his killings the window was down or the car door was open.My take on that was so the sole could leave faster and get to Paradice.The window was also open in the Jon Benet case,that of course would be a huge leap for me to say that I think the same man who killed these girls in Calif. could be the same one in Boulder. "But" stranger things have happend.I am predicting that Jon Benet's killer was a older man, who has killed many times before,has done many house break-ins,stalked the family.Had been in their home the night before,took the paper and felt tipped pen to where ever he was staying,and wrote it there. The next night brought it back with him. The 911 phone call the night before was I believe, the killer wanting to find out just how long it would take the Boulder PD to get there ( a trial run).This killer must have drooled out of the corner of his mouth to leave saliva on her, I don't think it was from a kiss.I just happen to have a suspect who drools,because he has a paralysis on one side of his face. Ther are more than a few coincidences that petain to my suspect.I can't place him in Boulder in 96,I didn't see him around here at that time. I know he travels from state to state,is very capable of commiting a crime such as this.In my investigating of this man and others I have checked out ,I find that there are a lot of evil people roaming around.No one has brought up the fact that another girl in Boulder, had a intruder not long after Jon Benet.I believe her father heard a noise and the person left the home. Boulder PD didn't see a connection because the girl wasn't killed ?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:13 pm:   

Vscantu, You are likely correct in assuming he has no detective skills and looking at my wording that you quoted I stand corrected. I should have said stumbled across instead of came across because you don't need to be a detective to stumble across something.
Somebody killed JonBenet Ramsey and that somebody may still be alive and out there somewhere in prison or free. Karr's perverted interests may have led him to some website that her killer also visited.
The same DNA that cleared Karr of charges in her murder also eliminated the Ramsey's so if he didn't do it then the Ramsey's didn't either so the actual killer if not dead is out there trolling somewhere. Maybe not killing but trolling and he and Karr may have crossed paths somewhere.

I'm still thinking on a good nickname.
Jack the Fibber?
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Linda
Username: Linda

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:25 pm:   

From the beginning, there were too many cryptic phrases used in Karr's "confession" and in anything the DA's office put out. I was highly skeptical of his involvement, although I had wished there was something there on which to finally close the case.

Unfortunately, I'm one that still feels there is some involvement within the family. As I've mentioned before, I believe that Patsy and John both loved their daughter and would do nothing whatsoever to intentionally hurt her. I feel that possibly, if anything, they were involved in covering up some sort of accident that had occurred in order to protect someone else they loved dearly. There are too many unusual circumstances surrounding the ransom note, especially in the way it was found WITHOUT any fingerprints located on the note (including Patsy's). I would certainly expect that Patsy's (and even John's) fingerprints to be all over the note - but from what I have read, Patsy immediately realized (without picking up the note) that this was a piece of evidence...and did NOT touch it at all. To me, if I were in a hurry getting ready to go somewhere, was coming down the stairs and noticed some papers lying around, the first thing I'd do is bend over, pick them up and then take a look at them. I'd probably have to read it two or three times to get a grasp of what I was truly reading, and upon realizing what it was saying, would be carrying it around with me, yelling for my husband and child while checking my child's room and EVERYWHERE else in the house she could be... I wouldn't be worried about waking up my other child to see if he knew where his sister was. I'm sure my husband would be repeatedly looking at the note, too, searching along with me. We'd more than likely weigh the kidnapper's threat of NOT calling the police and more than likely decide to call them (possibly using one of our cellphones so as to keep the regular line open in case we'd get an early call)...

As much as I don't want to believe the Ramsey's had anything to do with the death or cover-up of the crime, these issues with the ransom note, including the fact that it was long, the paper and pen used was from house, as was the duct tape and broken paint brush, and the fact that there was a thread from what Patsy was wearing the night before attached to the duct tape, certainly keep them on the questionable list for me.
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:42 pm:   

Vallejo Dave, I am not sure if anyone has addressed your idea about Karr and Nothern calif beach shootings ? That is a interesting idea ,the time is right for his being free. Myself I just don't think he is a killer. If he wants to be a female,he must be attracted to men I would think.I believe he wanted to look like Jom Benet or any other pretty girl.Like the Gay's love Cher,as well as the lez's.Sonoma County needs to watch out for their boys.I just went to the Bill Bagget web site,to compare the hand writing samples of Karrs to the ransom note. Check out the writer of the ransom note cross's his double t's like the z did ,"separtely". Then look at the lower case q ,like in the Melvin letter.The cap.D's n's m's, e's a match, that is all I can remember off the top of my head.I believe the experts are right about the person writing the note trying to disquise his printing.The disquise could well be the tails that were added, as in a typed note.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   

After reading what I have of the arrest warrant, I'd like to see a DNA study done on Karr's ex-wife.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 4:31 pm:   

Vscantu--the nickname "Rat Man" comes to mind.

Visit this site and pick out your favorite for Karr:

http://www.worldofrats.com/ROUSIndex.html

click on "Our Lords" and "Our Ladies".
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 4:40 pm:   

Sandy--Excellent observations. I don't believe a word this guy/gal says. His exact whereabouts from Aug 1 to Aug 20, 2004 need to be pinned down. He may have reached the breaking point, and become a killer.----I think when Karr was on the lamm in 2001, and after, he may have been to the Jenner area to camp out for free!
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 5:30 pm:   

V Dave: No, I don't think Rat Man is the right name for Karr- maybe 'the pedo rat' though.

After reading posts suspecting and then not: the parents, Burke, Karr, etc. I figure it's time to weigh in with my choice.
I am unable to find it now but Headline News had a program with some private detectives going through the evidence and coming up with a guy named Mike "something' who ended up commiting 'suicide' by shooting himself in the left side through a pillow even though he was right handed. He wore the same shoes as the prints they found at the Ramsey house and there were many other connections they made. They said he and one of his 'friends' (who his other friends said they wouldn't go near), probably 'did it'. The other 'Boulder break in' where the mother woke up and scared off the burglers in the daughter's bedroom was by them too. They're my suspects.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 6:13 pm:   

Where's Thardu when you need him?
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Sandy
Username: Sandy

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   

Ratman,Did you hear anything about who the friend was ? There is a way of checking those shoes, to see if in fact they are the same as those at the crime scene. They do it just like in a tire print.Shoes ware differently person to person.I wonder if they checked it out or not? This Mike guy could have been the look out I posted about some time back. The real killer may have shot Mike to shut him up.
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   

Sandy,
They didn't say what the 'friends' names were (it sounded like 2-3) but interviews with other longtime friends completely agreed that they kept as far away as possible from them.
I believe the shoeprints were 'Hi-Tec' and one picture they show of Mike lying dead on his bed also had an exact match of shoes, a rope, stun gun, tape, and other interesting items in it.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   

Sorry Ratman, no bad reflection on you intended. I was just trying to come up with a nickname for "girlie man".
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   

V Dave: No problemo-
I just didn't want to be mistaken for that 'sicko pedophile' who Boulder LE screwed up on. Hope he gets what's coming to him in Calif. though. And anywhere else he's been. :-)
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Breakout
Username: Breakout

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:04 am:   

I think you guys are referring to Michael Helgoth. There is more info (I havent verified) at this site:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Acquaintance%20In truder%20Theories
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   

I took saw the special on Mike Helgoth. I'm sure the Boulder DA and State authorities have considered him. I also saw the original Boulder detective that worked the case being interviewed on Catharine Crier (I think two days ago). He is still holding out (as I am) it was an inside job.

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 2:24 pm:   

I still wouldn't count out Karr--at least not until someone comes up with a good alibi for him. I'm reading the 400 pages of e-mails he sent to Michael Tracey, and there are a number of elements to those e-mails that continue to make him suspicious, particularly several very poignant usages of language. Here's just one example, referencing a chapter of the supposed confession book he sent to Tracey: "Please listen carefully. Please do NOT quote any part of this chapter and place it in a e-mail. Please store this document carefully and do not allow anyone but a publisher to view it. ... I would suggest that you read it more than once." That phraseology is very similar to the peremptory, detail-oriented imperatives of the ransom note.

The authorities jumped in and arrested Karr before they had a chance to really do some background digging, and I think it would be a shame to stop digging now that he hasn't been matched to their precious DNA sample. They should at the very least be trying to find an alibi for him. To completely dismiss him simply because the DNA doesn't match is wrongheaded, in my opinion.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 3:10 pm:   

Doug, Karr wasn't even in Colorado at that time! Not only his ex-wife (who hates him and wishes her testimony didn't exonerate him), but a total of 5 family members have said that he was with them at his father's home in Atlanta on 12-25/26-1996. Karr is nothing more than a delusional liar who wanted his 15 minutes of fame. It was pretty obvious that he was lying almost since the beginning, and now the Boulder DA has egg all over her face (and it is well deserved, I might add). Next in store for him is to face the real charges against him: possession of kiddie porn in Sonoma County.

BTW, Karr taught for 2 months right here in Napa, just a few miles from here.
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 4:29 pm:   

Breakout- Yes- Michael Helgoth, A very interesting character. The more they told about him the more intriguing he was. I can't ignore the evidence for it being from inside but if it wasn't Helgoth is as good as anyone's come up with.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   

I see where you're coming from Ed, and you're probably right, but the Karr family hasn't really said he was with them that Christmas--they've said that it would have been unusual for him not to have been with them at Christmas. I'm in favor of keeping a open mind. It costs nothing at all to do.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   

If 5 family members are certain, the DNA doesn't match, the palm print doesn't match, the shoe size doesn't match, and he cannot be placed in any way, shape or form in Boulder at that time, I think it's safe to say he's deluded. False confessions to crimes happen all the time, and this appears to be nothing more than that.

Of course, it's a good idea to keep an open mind about such things, but with all the evidence against him and none in favor other than a confession, it doesn't look good for the DA (especially since they're not filing charges against him).
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   

Johno: "Jack The Fibber"- I love it! That's the best nickname yet.

Further 'alibi' attesting to him being 1,400 miles from Boulder, CO.:

They interviewed his lady next-door neighboor from back then. She said she specificly remembers that Christmas of 1996 was when she got a bunch of new furniture for her house. And "Jack The Fibber" spent at least part of that day helping her move her furniture.

Nah, I think we can forget about this twisted clown being involved. But I wish that we could get more info on the type of people that "false confessors" are. People like the ones in 1974 who confessed to the BTK murders of the Otero family.

I'm sure that even tho' they may come from all walks of life, these 'freaks of nature' have many bizzare specific things in common. Like the way they talk about & relate to the crimes they confessed to. Also telling others their fantasies about the crimes, sexual & otherwise.

I'm sure current and former cops & D.A.'s would be able to shed alot of light on this for us. I wish they would. Any takers?
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 6:07 am:   

Vscantu,

I'm sure that most high profile cases that don't yield an immediate arrest have goofs falsely confessing to the crimes. Just another added hurtle for the investigators. I'm also sure that Boulder as had others over the years confess to this crime and they were quickly dismissed as false confessions. The difference in Karr was he supposedly peaked their interest with specific details on the crime scene.

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 7:06 am:   

After reading half of the e-mails, I'm still trying to figure out what Karr said specifically about the crime scene that piqued their interest. So far everything has been fairly derivative, although he denies certain commonly-held beliefs about the scene, such as the stun gun and the flashlight found in the house. I could have sworn that the BPD claimed he mentioned details that had been withheld from the public--now we've got this DA saying that all the details were public.

If the case continues to go unsolved, I think Karr is going to end up as the Arthur Allen of the Ramsey case.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 8:46 am:   

I doubt that Douglas. I know of no one that is coming out saying Karr is the killer and what in the heck is the DA doing by droping the case. Is there someone I don't know about?

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 9:13 am:   

They're not saying it now, Etphoto, but believe me, they will if the case continues to go unsolved. Twenty years from now there will be a website just like this one, and Karr will have a prominent place on it.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 3:32 pm:   

It's interesting to note that no one has yet come forward (that I am aware of) claiming that Karr had molested them. While he is a pedophile (there can be no argument about that considering the charges he's facing in Sonoma County), he doesn't appear to have acted on his sick impulses thus far. So, while not impossible, it does seem highly unlikely to me that a pedophile who hasn't to the best of our knowledge to date actually molested anyone would travel halfway across the country to a city he'd never been to before, break into a house without leaving any signs of forced entry, molest JBR and "accidentally" kill her, then escape without leaving any forensic evidence that can be linked to him, and return home without anyone noticing he'd been missing over Christmas.
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Ratman
Username: Ratman

Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   

Ed- you're good !

But if those tapes of Wendy Hutchins are Karr then he deserves the lowest part of Dante's hell.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 5:47 pm:   

He's one sick individual, of that there is no doubt, and while his crime is possession of kiddie porn, he does not appear to have actually molested any children that we know of. On the other hand, the pics of the children he had were abused by others, so that does not, IMO, make him any better for not having abused children himself.

His ex-wife has made comments that he was a tyrant at home. Looking at him, he honestly doesn't look like he could hurt a fly, but there's no reason to doubt his ex. He'll certainly get to know what tyranny really is with his cellmate, Bubba...
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   

Ed, I wouldn't bet on his not having abused children in the past. He's 41 years old, married a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old, trolled for kids on the internet in 1996, and since then has gone out of his way to put himself in a position to be in contact with little girls. I'm not a betting guy, but if I were, I'd be willing to bet you any sum you'd care to name that he's abused any number of little girls in the past.

Oh, and I'd be surprised if Bubba gets a chance to meet him. With his notoriety, no prison system is going to risk it. Not that it would break my heart if they did.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   

Good point, Doug, but none have come forward so far (although I understand that it cannot be easy to do so). He was 19 when he married Quientana Shotts, then 13 years old (she supposedly lied about her age), and he was 24 when he married Lara Knutson, then 16, in Georgia. Sixteen is the legal age of consent in Georgia and also the minimum age at which one can marry there, so only the first marriage to Shotts was illegal, although no one put a stop to it. That is so far the only known instance in which he abused a child, but why her parents didn't do anything about it is beyond me.

My understanding is that by putting himself in a position to be around little girls, they were all very young children like JBR as opposed to adolescents like his 2 ex-wives. It's entirely possible that he did molest little girls (I'd be surprised if he didn't), but unless any come forward with their stories, all they're going to get him on in Sonoma County is for possession of kiddie porn. I don't know what sort of sentence he'll receive, but Karr will hopefully be put away for several years.

Regardless, until we know more, the scenario I outlined in my previous post is highly unlikely based on what we know so far. And I find it quite odd that Karr could slip away for a few days at Christmas and no one would notice.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 7:38 pm:   

His marriage in Alabama in 1984 was illegal and thus was annulled nine months later. The legal age in Alabama is 14 with proof of age and both parents present at the wedding or one parent if a parent is desceased or a gaurdian if both parents are desceased. Parental consent is not required if 14 years old and previously married. How a 13 year old got around that and became married is pretty questionable. 14 as the legal age of marriage under any circumstances is pretty questionable in itself.
The marriage in Georgia was legal. She was also pregnant at the time so if she was impregnated at 15 that would be below consent.
His father was 37 when he married his mother who was 18.
His father's second marriage came when he was 52 and she was 29.
Karr faces five counts of misdemeanor child pornography charges from his computer. Each count carries a maximum of one year in jail and a $2,500 fine. He spent six months in county before being released on his own recognicense and fled so a no-bail warrent was issued for him. They'll probably throw the book at him because he fled but give him six months time served and he'll end up with a three year sentence.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:53 am:   

Johno: From everything I've heard & read, his Calif. kiddie porn charges were a misdemeanor, punishable by a grand Total of "only" 1 year in jail.

He already served 6 months of that. Evidently he was a "model" prisoner, because all the news sources say that he undoubtedly qualified for a "good behaviour" reduction during his sentence.

Which means that, almost assuredly, he will serve no more time for that 2001 crime.

However, having committed "unlawful flight to escape prosecution", he will undoubtedly get the judge to 'throw the book at him'.

By the way, does anyone know any more about why he was actually busted for the kiddie porn in the first place?

His friend, fellow "child murder-case groupie", Wendy Hutchens, turned him in during 2001. You know, the gal who also lived in Petaluma and who was contacting Polly Klaas's murderer, Richard Allen Davis? Even she was creeped out by this Kaar, because he was falsely confessing to the JonBenet Ramsey murder way back then! Which should have made his false confessions 5 years later a 'no brainer' for the Boulder D.A. But no....we had to go thru that whole circus.

Anyway, when Wendy gave the cops the secret recordings of Kaar "confessing", they knew he was a phoney, but a sicko nonetheless. So they popped him for child porn. But the weird thing is, they say in the photos, no children were undressed, and none were engaged in sexual acts.

So what was "child porn" about it?

Just curious.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 11:39 pm:   

Vscantu,
You are incorrect in the charges carry a grand total of one year. He is facing five counts and each count carries a maximun penalty of one year so his grand total is five years maximum.
The spefcifics of the content of those images on his computer that led to his arrest are now seaaled but have been described in reports by the Rocky Mountain News as "pornographic pictures of little girls."
He had been displaying an abnormal interest in the Polly Klass case and had even inquired to a real estate broker about buying the house she was abduced from. Investigators started looking into him because of his Polly Klass interest which eventually led to his arrest.
He was arrested on April 13th, plead not guilty on April 17th and his wife filed for divorce on April 19th just six days after his arrest.

Karr was also in Boulder.
In 2000 when he drove his family from Alabama to Petuluma, he did a side trip to Boulder and made his wife and three kids stay in a motel while he drove around Boulder and went to see the Ramsey house in his research for his propossed book about the murder.

Karr has a new lawyer. Robert M. Amparan will represent him on his Sonoma County charges.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 4:43 pm:   

Vscantu and all. I don't know about a nickname for Karr, but here is something that would be appropriate for him. Turn on your sound:

http://cheapzappers.com/
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   

Where is Karr tonight?
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   

Jail in Sonoma County, I would assume (and hopefully sharing a cell with Bubba, his new boyfriend)...
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Racerx
Username: Racerx

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   

Hopefully Bubba get's upset with him and tries to flush his head down the commode.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   

Racerx-lol--He needs a punk.

I read that prosecutors have about 2,000 other instances of Karr looking at child porn, including downloading it on to CD's and floppy discs. He should be exiled to LA County, under supervision, of course.
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Racerx
Username: Racerx

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:50 am:   

He should be in a cell by himself, don't give him what he wants (Bubba). Jail/ prison is for punishment, not an outlet for this pos to get his pudding packed. There shouldn't be ANY child porn on the internet, and those that do have these sites need to be prosecuted. The law enforcement employees that are not doing their jobs by enforcing the laws on this need to be in prison themselves,prison cells fit them too.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 4:58 am:   

"The law enforcement employees that are not doing their jobs by enforcing the laws on this need to be in prison themselves,prison cells fit them too."

That was a well thought out statement. Jeeze. . .

ET
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Racerx
Username: Racerx

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 1:05 pm:   

Thanks.
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   

Karr is a free man.
The Judge threw out the child porngraphy possession charges citing prosecutors didn't have enough evidence against him.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 4:32 pm:   

What about flight to avoid prosecution?
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   

I guess you can't flee from something that there is not evidence to be prosecuted for so the judge ordered him released from jail immediately.
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Vallejo_dave
Username: Vallejo_dave

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   

Gee, how would you like him substitute teaching at your child's school?---He deserves to be punished just for the lies he made about Jon Benet.
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Vscantu
Username: Vscantu

Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   

Johno wrote: "I guess you can't flee from something that there is not evidence to be prosecuted for so the judge ordered him released from jail immediately."

That can't be right, Johno. Fleeing from prosecution, especially out of the country, is a crime, no matter what. You don't get out of it just because, after the fact, the original charges didn't stick.

If that were the case, then everyone would be encouraged to skip out on bail, or fly the coup anytime you were arrested or charged but before you were actually found guilty of any crime.

No, I think we can chalk up Karrs' not being charged with 'Unlawful Flight To Escape Prosecution' to the un-ending streak of bone-headedness we've all had the pleasure of watching so far.
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 5:05 am:   

vscantu,

I'm pretty sure it is legal to resist an unlawful arrest. The catch is 99% of the arrest are lawful and that is why most get prosecuted for it. Furthermore, the encouragement not to skip bail isn't the fact you wouldn't get prosecuted for it if the original charges don't stick, the encouragement is the fact you'd lose the bail money.

ET
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 9:31 am:   

Is it okay to escape from prison under the same circumstances?
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Etphoto
Username: Etphoto

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:08 am:   

hmmm. . . good question Douglas. I'd image no since most in prison have been convicted and the arrest isn't an issue.

In Ohio, Section 2921.33 ORC, "No person, recklessly or by force, shall resist or infterfere with a LAWFUL arrest of the person or another."

Therefore, if the arrest wasn't lawful, you couldn't be prosecuted for it.

ET
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   

Well, it's highly unlikely that Karr will be able to get any sort of job around kids now, that's for sure. However, there are plenty of openings for jobs like cleaning up the garbage at the side of the road...
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Johno
Username: Johno

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   

He may be undesirable to employ as a teacher but if he's credentialed as a substitute teacher a school could hire him.
I haven't seen any move yet to revoke him of any credentials he may have to substitute teach in California unless they were already revoked. If they have been he could apply for reinstatement since he has no record of convictions.
He doesn't have to register as a sex offender.
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Douglas_oswell
Username: Douglas_oswell

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   

Actually, whether an arrest is "lawful" or not doesn't really hinge on the guilt or innocence of the suspect.
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Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:20 pm:   

He may not legally be a sex offender, but from what came out about his obvious pedophilia after his lie about murdering JBR, who would let Karr teach children? Teenagers are one thing, but I really doubt he will ever be near little kids again (especially little girls), since that appears to be what his sick fantasies involve.
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Warren
Username: Warren

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   

Can one voluntarily register as a sex offender?
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Tom_voigt
Username: Tom_voigt

Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 8:46 am:   

Let's continue this discussion here.

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