The Case Against Allen


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: The Case Against Allen

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th024.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.29) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 08:23 am:

I've just posted a look at the evidence against Arthur Allen over at my site: it's linked in the "Analysis" section. Between Tom's Allen page and mine, I think his suspect status is pretty much covered until VPD comes forth with the results of their tests.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Jennifer (Jackyl1) (66.64.ont-3766.uia.net - 131.161.64.66) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 11:25 am:

Anyone know when that will be? At their leisure, I would assume.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.29) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 11:30 am:

Let's hope they aren't using the same lab as RPD.

--Jake

By Mike (Mike) (spider-wo012.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.22) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

Hi Jake-

Does that acronym stand for "Rapid Processing of DNA"?

Mike

By John R (Johnremtct) (spider-mtc-tb023.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.28) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:43 pm:

Speaking of DNA has anyone gone back to check for latent DNA on any other Z artifacts. I am specificaly think the Stine shirt samples might be helpful. Remember these were in Z's possession for some time after the crime and I am sure he did not do anything to alter them for he wanted the Blood proof to assure he was given credit for the crime.

By Bryan (The_Giant) (144.141.27.172) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 01:51 pm:

would there be any other DNA evidence, like spot on Monica's blue dress
Bryan

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac958998.ipt.aol.com - 172.149.137.152) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 02:03 pm:

This is getting WAY off topic...

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p130.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.130) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 11:19 am:

Jake,
You do present a good rebuttal case,which gives plenty food for thought.I still can't help wondering though,if there is actually more information on Allen that has not been made public.No doubt others have evaluated the case against Allen in recent times and if this is all there is against I would have to agree that it would not warrant such a high interest.Then again it may be just to eliminate him!

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wi084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.59) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:18 pm:

Most of the stuff I have on Allen came from either the APB files or from a CA reporter who did a few stories on the case. Certainly, this doesn't mean that other, more incriminating, files aren't out there, but one would think that VPD would leak those rather than the exculpatory ones.

I've also heard that this recent DNA testing will be checking not just Allen but several others, too, which would seem to indicate that he is not THE suspect, but rather A suspect.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (pool0136.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.136) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:12 pm:

Jake, any info (or guesses) as to what evidentiary item(s) the unknown DNA came from?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th041.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.36) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:20 pm:

I have to assume it was from envelopes, unless we're all being left in the dark on something important.

--Jake

By John R (Johnremtct) (spider-wa023.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.28) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:00 pm:

I still wonder if the Stine Shirt pieces might hold more DNA evidence, Body fluids and fibers (hair) could be more easily imbedded in cloth. And as pointed on other threads, Z my not have been as careful since this DNA technology wasn't even a concept back then.
John

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-tf041.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.36) on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 06:43 am:

Right you are, John, but all the Stine swatches were sent to the Chronicle or Melvin Belli -- both in SF. SFPD is not aiding VPD, so one must still wonder where VPD's samples are coming from.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (pool0171.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.171) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 01:01 am:

By the way, Jake, you attributed most of what you know of Allen as having been gleaned from "APB files or from a CA reporter who did a few stories on the case." Was not Tom's website info the least bit contributory to your compendium of knowledge about Allen? How about giving credit where credit is due. Tom may be a competitor, but you must admit that the available store of knowledge about Zodiac, which you share under your own name, is not completely independent of Tom's efforts. If you claim it is, then perhaps Tom's site is redundant. I doubt it.

As for the possible sources of DNA material that VPD is having tested, what about the knife that was seized in the Allen search? Any chance that it may have yielded something after all? I personally doubt it, figuring that a murder weapon would have been discarded soon after the crime, along with any other instrumentalities that could have connected him with the various crimes.

Bill

By BK (Bk) (adsl-138-88-33-82.bellatlantic.net - 138.88.33.82) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 03:59 am:

It's interesting that you say "competitor", are we all not working toward the same cause or final solution -- to discover who Zodiac is/was, and to discover who killed whom and which person is guity of the crime and to verify the whole shrouded mystery he has laid before the populous?

By Clark Kent (Clark) (slip-32-102-195-192.ca.us.prserv.net - 32.102.195.192) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 10:03 am:

I hope you are right, BK. Sometimes I worry that our goals are to prove that either Allen, Davis, the Unabomber, or another guy is the Zodiac. Some even seem like proprietors: "MY suspect communicated cybernetically, etc." I would certainly like to see Zodiac identified...

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac9a0dff.ipt.aol.com - 172.154.13.255) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 11:04 am:

Not that I'm being accused of this, but nobody has ever heard me refer to Allen as "my suspect."

Other suspects interest me, not just Allen. But other than the few featured on the Suspects page, I can't exactly plaster their names all over my site without potentially getting sued.

I did notice at least a couple of errors at Jake's update, and will go through it again a little later.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ti033.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.163) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 03:30 pm:

Bill Baker wrote:
"you attributed most of what you know of Allen as having been gleaned from "APB files or from a CA reporter who did a few stories on the case." Was not Tom's website info the least bit contributory to your compendium of knowledge about Allen?"

I probably should have been more clear in that statement: that info came in the form of about 100 pages of FBI documents, Vallejo Police Department reports, search warrants, affidavits, newspaper clippings, and letters. Only the FBI files are available online. I didn't mention Tom because my post was in response to Lapumo's curiosity about sealed documents, and I thought that it went without saying that Tom hasn't posted any Top Secret, Eyes Only reports on his site.

"How about giving credit where credit is due."

While Tom has done a great job of distilling this information at this site, and has been personally generous, almost all of the sources used in "The Case Against Arthur Allen" were from my private collection. When credit was due to Tom or his site, I was careful to assign it: if you'll be kind enough to read the footnotes, you'll see that he is cited as a source five times in the Allen article and over a dozen times throughout my site (they may be difficult to spot among the eighty or so sources that I quote and cite by name). He's also listed on the very first page as someone to whom "my deepest thanks go out."

"Tom may be a competitor, but you must admit that the available store of knowledge about Zodiac, which you share under your own name, is not completely independent of Tom's efforts. If you claim it is, then perhaps Tom's site is redundant. I doubt it."

When I first launched my site almost three years ago, I intentionally designed it to complement, rather than compete with, Tom's site. You might notice the complete difference between the two styles. While Tom has made great strides in bringing new information to light, I can comfortably say that I hold my end up both as a researcher and as a clearinghouse for information. There are several sites out there that I would label "redundant," but Tom's certainly is not one of them, and it's a ridiculous oversimplification to suggest that I ever implied such a thing.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ti012.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.152) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

Tom wrote:
"I did notice at least a couple of errors at Jake's update, and will go through it again a little later."

By all means, let me know about them either through email or here at the board. If I got something(s) wrong, I'll be the first to own up and fix it.

--Jake

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (pool0403.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.153.148) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

My apologies, Jake.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-176.linkline.com - 64.30.217.176) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 02:41 am:

To Jake's credit he has been the first- and the last- relative to correct or amend if he thinks there is really a need to do so.He does not have pride of presentation as I call it! Jake where is the fifty for the last time I helped you? This one is double!

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wl084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.59) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 01:39 pm:

Bill apology accepted. I'm probably extra-sensitive about this since my run-in with That Other Web Site.

Howard, the check is in the mail.

(Sorry if this comes up twice -- I thought I posted it earlier, but it doesn't seem to have shown up.)

--Jake

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wk041.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.166) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 03:00 pm:

Scott wrote in "Eyewitnesses":
"He's the ONLY suspect who's ever been issued a search warrant (3 times, to boot) out of a possible 2500 suspects. The police were breathing down his neck until the time of his death in 1992, and then their balls-out investigation dwindles following ALA's death."

The first warrant against Allen came as the result of Cheney's shakey accusations. The police got left- and right-handed writing samples as well as major-case prints, and the results were a resounding no match on both counts. Police found nothing of evidentiary value, and Allen was forgotten for twenty years. As investigations go, this is hardly balls-out.

The second warrant was based on info from a man facing 30 years on an armed robbery rap. Perhaps not coincidentally, the only arrest on Allen's rap sheet (posted on this site) is for a fight with this man. The police were under additional pressure due to the recent success of Graysmith's book. Again, no evidence was found, and one newspaper reported that Allen was dismissed as a suspect.

In the absence of any other suspects, the follow-up search after Allen's death was probably a good idea, but again, the police came away with nothing. Check "The Case Against Arthur Leigh Alllen" at my site, linked below.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tc011.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.151) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 04:50 pm:

Jake: I am under the impression that the last search warrant issued against Allen was in 1991, PRIOR to Allen's death. If Allen is not considered by the police to be their prime suspect, then why are items sieged during the warrant still being analyzed? You said that "the police came away with nothing." You are referring to 1991 aren't you? If so, it seems to be that they came away with a lot of evidence. I stand corrected if this is not the case.

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-we072.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.195.52) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 05:22 pm:

Allen's residence was searched on 13 February 1991, and again shortly after his death in 1992. The items seized in '91 include bomb-making materials, newspaper clippings from 1982, a few firearms, two typewriters, a knife, a flashlight, a letter from the DOJ, Allen's watch, and audio and videotapes. Only one knife and one handgun could theoretically be considered evidence, but in 10 years they haven't been linked to the Zodiac crimes. Doesn't that tell you something?

I suppose the term "evidence" is open to interpretation. I would define it as materials linking Allen to the Zodiac case, and I don't find any in the lists of seized items.

Allen, by the way, is not the only person against whom the evidence is currently being tested. He hasn't been the "prime suspect" in quite some time, from what I gather.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.154) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 05:57 pm:

Jake: Actually, the fact that the seized items haven't been linked to Zodiac means very little to me. The fact that the case lost some of its momentum following Allen's death does, however, tell me something. It tells me that the police departments probably felt that they had their man, and, following Allen's death, didn't feel the need to spend the time or money to continue the investigation. You can't prosecute a dead man, so why continue devoting time and money to the case? Especially in a timely manner. Additionally, to my knowledge, Allen's typewriters have yet to be compared to the Bates letters. It would seem that this would be logical considering that at least one of the typewriters was a Royal with Elite typeface. I was also under the assumption that a foot long knife with a sheath had also been seized, as well as the bomb-making materials and diagrams for explosive devices.
As for Allen's handwriting analysis, it seems to me that, if Graysmith's theory about tracing the individual letters from a transparency is correct, then the samples would have been useless anyway. There's also reason to believe that Allen was altering his handwriting while providing the samples. I'm pretty sure that Toschi felt this to be the case.

Scott

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.154) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 06:07 pm:

ps. I've yet to visit your website, Jake. I'll do that asap so as not to make you needlessly repeat yourself. I'm NOT convinced that ALA was the Zodiac. I just find it bizarre that he was the only suspect to ever have a search warrant issued against him.

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-we032.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.195.32) on Thursday, April 19, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

Scott: the case against Allen lost momentum immediately after the first warrant was served.  According to the DOJ, "handwriting is the most positive method of identification or elimination of suspects," and Allen's handprinting was ruled by experts to be similar "but definitely not that of Zodiac."  For my part, I think fingerprints are a better bet, since you can't fake 'em, and the FBI has stated that none of Allen's prints matched the Z prints. In the absence of any legitimate evidence, he was forgotten for almost 20 years.

Law enforcement is also doubtful that Z wrote the typed "Confession" letter, and my bet is that Allen got that typewriter after he read Graysmith's book, which named the Bates typescript as Elite, whereas an FBI report names it as most probably Pica.  

As for the projector theory, how do you think he used it on the car door at Berryessa? The very idea is so silly that I'm amazed Graysmith's editor let it slide. Even the staunchest Allenistas are reluctant to invoke it as evidence.

This is all probably academic. The results of the test ought to be out by summer, so we'll probably have a solid answer then -- that is, unless Gregorypraxas was right and Allen had been saving dog drool and used it to moisten the stamps and envelope flaps.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tj012.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.106.22) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 02:28 am:

Jake: I agree that the idea of using a projector at LB is ludicrous. However, and maybe you could shed some light on this for me, I don't recall the car door at LB ever having been analyzed by any handwriting experts. If it was, and the sample was believed by experts to be a close match to that of Z's, then Graysmith's tracing theory can be tossed out the window. On the other hand, if it didn't match the handwriting in the known Z letters, then maybe Graysmith's theory is a valid one (unless the crime was committed by a different perp, which is a proposition put forth in exhaustive detail in another thread on this MB). Let's also take into account that handwriting can differ dramatically given the situation in which it was written. Just because Allen's handwriting was different from Z's at the time he was asked to submit examples, doesn't mean that Allen was not Zodiac. There are other factors that need to be taken into account. Allen could have deliberately altered his handwriting, which Toschi seems to have implied. Also, the potential stress that Allen was under at the time of the search warrant could also lead to differences in the handwriting. I'm by no means an "Allenista," I'm just curious as to why he was the only suspect to ever have been issued a search warrant. I agree with you that the results of the tests could probably provide us with some definitive answers. All we can do now is hope. However, Allen's name IS mentioned several times in the Contra Costa Times article that Tom posted on his site yesterday: "police figure DNA testing may finally illuminate one of the 2,500 suspects who have been queried over the years." It seems pretty obvious to me that the Zodiac task force still seems to be targeting ALA.

Best regards,
Scott

By Mike (Mike) (ckcfpxy1.att.com - 12.20.58.68) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 06:57 am:

Hi Jake-

As far as handwriting being the best evidence for ID'ing Zodiac, I have a thought. I just got done re-reading Harry Martin's 1991 "expose", which essentially lists every major player on Tom's site as having been Z. He continually repeats the mantra that "handprinting is the most reliable means of identifying Z" (the "Carl R. mantra"). Well, let's see...in Martin's series, "rh"'s handprinting matches. Penn shows that O'Hare's matches and Tom posted some of Allen's hand printing that matches Z's.

I don't know that handwriting is the be all end all anymore. I agree with you that something a bit more objective--like prints (or, of course, DNA)--would be much more definitive. Either that or all of the three people mentioned above were the real "Team Zodiac" and alternated writing the letters... LOL!

(Incidentally, since Allen passed his handwriting test with flying colors but was still found to have printed in a maner similar to Z, a handwriting "test", even under controlled conditions, seems dicey at best. I believe that, as was done by Tom with Allen, you need to find samples that are lying around the suspect's home or which were sent in a letter to a friend, etc. But even then, given Z's possible ambidexterity, there are no guarantees that you'll find a match, if he only writes with one hand in everyday life-- in order to continue to avoid detection by such means.)

Mike

By Bucko (Bucko) (spider-mtc-ti044.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.169) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 07:06 am:

This friendly exchange between Scott and Jake illustrates the very core problem with finding a solution to the Z case....if after all these years Allen represents one of the best, or as some believe the best, suspect...we really don't have that much. Police for decades have been working hard to build a solid case against him ...without success.

"If the fingerprints don't match, you must release the catch." I believe if and when the real Zodiac is found, his prints will match those on file. As Jake pointed out, Allen's don't.

Allen is interesting enough and I have no problem with people that tout his viability as a suspect. However, I think the DNA test underway will be a negative match for him. Even if it is, some will probably still point to him as having some involvement.

By ZK (Zander_Kite) (a010-0712.stbg.splitrock.net - 64.196.42.204) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 08:43 am:

I wouldn't eliminate Allen or any suspect based on handwriting or fingerprints. Due to the planning involved in the Zodiac case, I'm of the opinion he altered his handwriting style and left no prints.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq062.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.182) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 09:42 am:

Jake: Earlier you mentioned that, "Only one knife and one handgun could theoretically be considered evidence," shortly after saying that, "a few firearms," had been seized in '91. I'm just wondering about the other firearms that you mentioned because Z used at least two: a .22 and a 9mm.
I'm new to the message board, and am still trying to read all the posts, so forgive me if I'm walking on thoroughly trodden ground, but I'm just wondering if the types of guns seized in '91 have ever been made public. Rifles? Revolvers? Shotguns? Semi-automatic pistols? The calibers of the guns? Etc. Were you implying that the types of guns that were seized have been exposed to the public, and therefore we know enough about them to rule out all but one?
Again, please forgive any oversights on my part.

Best regards,
Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wq074.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.193) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 02:47 pm:

Ok, let me try to get to all these points in one post. Taking it from the top...

Scott wrote:
"I don't recall the car door at LB ever having been analyzed by any handwriting experts."

I'll admit (to Peter H's delight) that I'm unaware of a Morrill ID of the Berryessa writing as Z's. However, a CA DOJ report that states "additional investigation revealed that the person who had printed on the car door was the same individual who had sent letters to the [newspapers]." This sounds like a formal handwriting analysis to me. Regardless, it bears a resemblance that even the layman can detect.

Scott continued:
"Allen's name IS mentioned several times in the Contra Costa Times article that Tom posted on his site yesterday."

The fact is that Allen is the best known of all the suspects, so it's no surprise that he's mentioned by name. I've corresponded with the reporter, however, and he doesn't exactly seem to be in-the-know. Superficial research gets you superficial reporting.

Mike wrote:
"I believe that, as was done by Tom with Allen, you need to find samples that are lying around the suspect's home or which were sent in a letter to a friend, etc."

Insp. Armstrong did just that, using Allen's brother to root around for old letters and handwriting. A sample is posted on this site, and it looks nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like Z's writing. In fact, Allen's sample for the cops looked more like Z's writing, which to me indicates that he was indeed putting on a show for the police.

Scott wrote:
"I'm just wondering about the other firearms that you mentioned because Z used at least two: a .22 and a 9mm."

Sorry -- I get caught up sometimes. The firearms recovered from Allen's residence were two .22 revolvers; a .32 semiauto; two .22 rifles; a .30 rifle; and two shotguns. No 9mms. Only one .22 was used in the Zodiac murders, and that's what I was getting at, though I just realized that the possibility exists that it was a rifle and not a handgun. Regardless, I think it's a safe bet that 10 years is enough time to analyze four weapons and determine whether they had been used in the LHR murders.

Special thanks to Bucko for pointing out that this is a friendly exchange. I'm confident in my position, but not pathological about it. Bring it on, fellas!

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Classic (Classic) (spider-wb084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.189) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 03:10 pm:

To Tom or Jake: Since Allen seems to be fading coming down the backstretch who is the new prime suspect? The testing being done, is it only of the Big 5 (Allen,Kane,Marshall,Davis,Kacinski) or are there other "better" unnamed suspects? Classic

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac87e8f1.ipt.aol.com - 172.135.232.241) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 03:33 pm:

As far as I know, Allen is the only suspect being scrutinized by law enforcement. I doubt the current regimes would know a good new suspect, anyway. Most are way too busy with current cases, as they should be.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-ta031.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.56) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 03:53 pm:

I've heard that multiple suspects were being looked at, but not who they are. My source is not involved in the investigation, but is closer to the participants than most. Anyway, I doubt any of them have ever mentioned by name on this board.

There have been a few cryptic references to suspects by cops in recent years -- a guy living in Germany, another Vallejo man, the SF businessman mentioned in the Chronicle a few months back -- so we know that the police are still considering suspects, if not going at them full-time. The police would probably keep information on new suspects on the down-low, so we shouldn't rule their existence out because the CC Times didn't report them.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tc024.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.159) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 04:29 pm:

Jake: Thanks for the info. If the spent shell casings found at LHR have extraction marks on them, then you can rule out the two .22 caliber revolvers, as well. In essence, this would only leave the .22 caliber rifles, which can probably be ruled out given the known testimony and a healthy dose of logic.

As for the car door at LB, I agree with you about the layman detection. Thanks for the info regarding the CA DOJ report. Is this report posted elsewhere? If so, I apologize for the inconvenience of having to restate it.

Finally, your right again when you stated that, "Superficial research gives you superficial reporting." I'm the last person in the world who would claim otherwise.

Additional thanks for the "friendly exchange." I'm just throwing out ideas; I'm NOT convinced that ALA is the man, just a good suspect.

Scott

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac803e65.ipt.aol.com - 172.128.62.101) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

Jake, the German man you referred to was Robert Emmett Rodifer, and he was looked at because of his relationship with Allen.

As far as the suspect fetured in the Chronicle last year, that was simply the case of a hot-shot reporter looking to make waves/sell papers, rather than the police really thinking he was a viable suspect based on their own investigation.
Since nothing has developed in the wake of the story, there can be no other explanation.

As was the case with the suspect mentioned in the KOVR piece a few months ago, the police find it easier to say "Yes, there are some interesting circumstances, but we don't have proof to arrest him."
What they are really saying is "Leave us alone! We have no idea if this guy could be Zodiac. Geez, that case was from the 60s!!!"

By Clark Kent (Clark) (slip-32-102-191-224.ca.us.prserv.net - 32.102.191.224) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 12:49 am:

Ah, so this is the infamous "Robert Emmet the Hippie"!
(Amateur cryptographers examined the 17 runoff characters Zodiac used to fill out his initial cipher in 1969. They added the letters R, M and P to complete this "solution")

By ZK (Zander_Kite) (a010-0711.stbg.splitrock.net - 64.196.42.203) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 06:45 am:

The 17 runoff letters could stand for Robert "Math" Rippey ???

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj084.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.214) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 07:21 am:

Scott, that quote is from a DOJ BCII report that was linked under the "Lake B: Z Crime?" thread a while back. I just looked for it, but Tom might have removed it.

Tom, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss police action on the Chronicle story just because you haven't heard anything about it. Such was the case on this latest round of testing, which you also denied was taking place. Besides, I have it on pretty good authority that something has developed in the wake of that story. While I personally doubt that it will lead to an indictment -- or even a formal investigation -- I'm given to understand that SFPD did look/are looking into the businessman.

Finally, I've been in touch with the informant on the KOVR story, and he's dropping names that lead me to believe that he is involved with the police. It should go without saying that we really need to keep an open mind on all this stuff.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wd014.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.154) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 09:49 am:

Tom:
In Graysmith's book, he calls Toschi and tells him he has uncovered info that Allen (Starr) had been a student at RCC, something Toschi seems to know nothing about. Do you know if this in fact is true???

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac8a3d94.ipt.aol.com - 172.138.61.148) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 01:33 pm:

Jake, if the police actually thought the suspect from the Chronicle story could be Zodiac, do you think two newbies would be in charge of the Z case for SFPD?

The informant from the KOVR story is a psycho. Didn't I send you copies of his e-mail? And how difficult would it be to name drop after visiting this site? I provide a list of contacts on my "About" page.

I have reason to believe no recent batch of testing was even attempted until just a few months ago...

By Jake (Jake) (spider-ta042.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.62) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 03:40 pm:

In order:

They're new to the case, as would be any cop who was transferred. They aren't rookies, and I can guarantee you that they aren't sitting on their hands. Anyway, would you have more faith in Repetto, who asked Graysmith who the hooded guy in the drawing was? Or Bruton, who apparently has never been to Presidio Heights?

I just read the KOVR emails, and yeah, the guy sounds like a kook. Regardless, the names he dropped were not from your "About" page, which is also missing the two current SFPD detectives.

You denied that the tests were under way in the face of multiple sources, myself included, who reported that they were. Apparently, it wasn't until Lt. West told you that you reversed your opinion. Believe it or not, you aren't the only guy researching this case, and again, I can guarantee you that you aren't the only one the police are talking to.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta023.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.28) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:28 am:

Tom:
Respectfully, could you cut the defensive insults and just get real here?
There are some things in your "ALLEN FILE" that do not make any sense. You say that Allen was allegedly in the Riverside area at the time of the CJB murder. Then ask "did he stay a couple of extra days there?"--How could he have when we know he obviously went back to class on the 31st??
Halloween is NOT a school holiday and if he had not been there that Monday, we would surely have heard it. (Most probably he took off 11-1 because he got bonkered at a Halloween party, and had a hangover). Then at another point you reveal that Allen's father died on what would have been Ferrin's 24th birthday, and that this was looked upon with suspicion. What relevance could this have had to the Ferrin murder since it happened AFTER her death??-- What are you saying that Allen was suspected of killing his father?? That is the only possible relevance that could have.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb485d2.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.133.210) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 12:30 pm:

"he obviously went back to class on the 31st??"

Nobody knows whether Mr. Allen returned to Valley Springs on Oct. 31, 1966. Maybe the school was closed for some reason. Perhaps he had some lecture or workshop to attend with other faculty members.
We simply don't know for sure, Sylvie....and we may never know, so get used to it.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to look. What will you be doing?

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc074.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.54) on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 09:30 am:

Tom,
Respectfully again but this should be the easiest of easy information to obtain. CA State schools all must keep an accurate log as to whether school is in session or not. As well, all employees (and students) attendance are dutifully noted. This is dictated by State law. It is as simple as that. He was either there on Monday, Oct.31st or he was not. It is a matter of record.
And of course you must know all this because you have the record that states he was absent on 11-1.
I have no problem making the phone call for you, but this is something that normally you are extremely good at and I have the feeling you don't like too many cooks in the kitchen.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (aca0b456.ipt.aol.com - 172.160.180.86) on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 12:50 pm:

Sylvie, you are greatly overestimating how easy it is to get access to such information.

First, it would be a miracle if such records still exist in 2001. They definitely wouldn't be the kind of thing a school would hang on to, or transfer to microfilm. Why would they?

Second, it just isn't as easy as picking up a phone and asking. The person you are talking to on the other end has a job to do, and this stuff isn't part of it. Nobody wants to do extra work.

Finally, I just don't see it as being terribly important. Even if Allen was back in school on October 31, he still could have been Cheri Jo's killer, skipping school on November 1 to return to Riverside and enjoy the attention.

By Zoe Glass (Zoe_Glass) (max2-33.evansinet.com - 63.69.48.33) on Sunday, July 01, 2001 - 08:31 am:

Sylvie, I would disagree with the premise of accurate record keeping by the schools. Personally I know of several instances where students records indicate attendance on days when they where
no where near the school.This is a common practice of students throughout America.
Although not school related,the same is true of some of my past employees...and remarkably I've never seen an instance when one was attending and marked absent.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb014.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.154) on Sunday, July 01, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

This may be, though rare, possible as far as students go. However teachers, as paid civil servants, simply have to be accounted for. There cannot be a teacherless class -- subs need to be hired, etc. One also gets the impression that record keeping was particularly vigilante at this school as well in that Allen tried to take an excused absence, but was unable to pass it through.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc043.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.38) on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 02:25 am:

I had a look at the absence slip again, and the first three lines are name, school and date. Do we know for certain that November 1st, 1966 is the date that Allen was absent, and not the date he filled out and turned the slip in? In other words, was he absent Monday, October 31st, 1966, and the next day, Tuesday, November 1st, he returned to work and filled it out, mistakenly (or purposely?) assigning the current date rather than the date he missed? I think it might be a good possibility.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acad9ac0.ipt.aol.com - 172.173.154.192) on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 02:37 am:

I agree, especially considering Calaveras County considers Atari's "Pong" to be an Olympic sport.

Just kidding, by the way.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb071.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.181) on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 10:10 am:

Ed:
If you are right, now THAT would be interesting!!!

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc074.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.54) on Saturday, August 04, 2001 - 11:41 pm:

I've never been too much of an Allenite, however after viewing Tom's video (BTW-great video), IF Allen were to have been Zodiac, I noticed it almost sounded like a quasi confession when he says he even wonders himself if he is the Zodiac.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d141-193-74.home.cgocable.net - 24.141.193.74) on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 09:12 am:

Sylvie, I noticed that too. Questioning yourself is something one would do if they were under the influence of some substance during the crimes, or maybe a split personality. Its a bit strange that a normal person who knows he didn't do it would question himself just because the police keep talking to him.

The police and media continue to probe Gary Condit. Assuming he had nothing to do with Chandra Levy's disappearance, I can't see him looking in the mirror and asking himself if he did it just because the attention is still on him.

Although if Allen isn't Z, this quasi-confession is just another piece of this weird individual.

By The Fife (Thefife) (hsa070.pool010.at001.earthlink.net - 216.249.73.70) on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 09:27 am:

Sylvie,

I forget the exact quote, but Gacy made the same sort of statement under police questioning, and that was when they said they knew that they had him.

Tom F

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb083.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.188) on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 09:42 am:

Yes, and it is true Allen was seeing a psychatrist that suspected Allen as having 5 different personalities, who knows maybe he was able in later years to suppress that very violent Zodiac one (Atascadero did some good?).
Reminds me of that old Joanne Woodward film "The three faces of Eve". I have no expertise in this field though so I cannot attest to the validity of all of this.