DNA Against Allen would only raise more questions.


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: DNA Against Allen would only raise more questions.

By Maxson (Maxson) (ip-111-152-253.chicago-n.navipath.net - 64.111.152.253) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 10:19 pm:

If there were a positive match on Allen, more and more questions would come about. These might be more frusterating because many of them can not be answered. For examlpe: 1) If Allen was Zodiac, did murder Bates? If not, who did, how did he know Allen, to what extend was Allen involved. 2) There will always be those who say, if the DNA is a match for Allen, that he just wrote the letters. The DNA came from an envelope and there would be no evidence that Allen killed anyone. 3) Did Zodiac kill anyone else? 4) Why did he stop? There are even more questions that would need to be answered, that is not to say that a positive Allen match wouldn't be great.

By Mark (Mark) (12-127-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net - 24.237.127.12) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 07:24 am:

Maxson-
I've been quite excited by this breaking news about the DNA and yes I've thought about how people are going to express that sentiment of that only proves he wrote the letters. However, what if one of the envelopes/stamps tested is one of those that included the pieces of Stine's bloody shirt?? I'm hoping that this is the case, it certainly would quiet most of the doubters! Perhaps the recent events in SF will get something going in the Riverside DNA. There was some speculation that the Police are waiting for Bate's ex-boyfriend to come back to the US before they release their findings (if they have any yet!). I would agree that it's highly doubtful that he will be back anytime soon even with extradition proceedings. Yes, lots of questions still to be answered! Mark

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tf071.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.206) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 08:13 am:

Maxson,
I think one could reasonably assume that the author of the Zodiac letters, particularly with Stine's bloody shirt attached, is indeed the Zodiac. As in the Jonbenet case, once you have identified the writer, you have most likely identified the killer.
If it turns out to be Allen's DNA, then the 5 definite Z killings would, in my book, be solved.
If then, the DNA of Z does not match the DNA they have in Riverside--it would be as RPD have been saying all along, that it is not Zodiac.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wo084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.59) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 08:35 am:

Since Allen is dead, I think a positive DNA match would probably close the book on the Zodiac case. Lawyers for a living suspect would probably make the cases outlined above, but would anyone bother for a deceased client with no estate?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (21.philadelphia08rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.30.21) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 08:46 am:

It might be interesting to note that in the Unabomber case, a second major suspect (apart from Kaczynski) came up as a match for the DNA found on the Unabomber's stamps. This suspect was eliminated only because he had a good alibi for one of the events. It all hinges on what type of testing is being done. Some tests are less conclusive than others because a relatively large portion of the population shares the genetic markers being tested for.

By Maxson (Maxson) (nas-147-66.chicago-n.navipath.net - 64.20.147.66) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 08:58 pm:

I would hope they are using DNA from a letter with Stine's shirt in it. A few years ago, they tested the letter with the large zodiac symbol drawn in blood against Allen and found no positive match. That one was probably a fake though. I agree that a DNA conviction would close the case. There will always be those who say there were two people involved. Well, I guess you can't please them all. Can't wait for those test results!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-93.linkline.com - 64.30.217.93) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 12:33 am:

All of the envelopes/stamps could be tested to determine consistent DNA patterns.

The envelopes/stamps/hair(taken from the base of Bate's right thumb) from Riverside should be compared to all the known Zodiac letters.All DNA patterns should be compared to see if one person moistened all the letters/notes (66-67) and see if that hair sample matches.

If there are 2 or more contrary DNA results within the known Zodiac missives,then this could show someone else, maybe on occasion,moistened some of those stamps/flaps.

If there are two differing DNA types on any one envelope stamp and flap this would be baffling.

If some or all the flaps/stamps were moistened with a damp sponge this, to be sure, would present some problems! They did salvia comparisons in those days and some anti detection books urged a 'poison pen 'letter writer to moisten stamps/flaps with a wet sponge and then toss the sponge as traces of the sponge could be detected on the adhesive.

Hair 'falls' into the inside of the envelope were to be watched because, as we know,they also did hair comparisons too.

To me,the greatest nightmare of all is that if the DNA testing shows negative for Allen,and later, for all the known Z suspects then could this indicate that an associate moistened those stamps/flaps-or worse yet; was it done by some unknown person who was the man we know as Zodiac and he was passed over by all the investigators both professional and amateur?

From my scenario, one or more of the trusted Manson girls could have mailed those letters and sealed them.This is what they did with letters from Manson and his other associates.

Sandra Good and Lynette Fromme tried to get a young man to mail some threat letters they prepared and sealed to different people and "they wanted him to go to S.F. so the letters would have a S.F. postmark on them"! He refused to do this and later told the PD.

If so -is he dead or alive- and is his DNA or any kind of a sample from his person in storage somewhere?

This case could wind up like Jack the Ripper-I sincerely hope and pray it does not!

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-209.245.11.77.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 209.245.11.77) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:19 am:

Howard: It is generally believed that the longer a case goes unsolved that the likelihood of it ever being solved diminishes quickly. You're right on the money with your sponge theory. God, I hope that this isn't the case!

I agree that if the DNA that was tested was extracted from a letter containing a swatch of Stine's shirt, then ALA was the Zodiac. I'm aware that numerous arguments could be made against this assertion, but given the DNA evidence, combined with the handwriting samples, I would feel very confidant in my belief that ALA was Z.

Sylvie: You stated, "As in the Jonbenet case, once you have identified the writer, you have most likely identified the killer." Let's not forget that the Ramsey case has also yet to be solved. I'm a Colorado native, and was living in Boulder at the time of this incident, so I am very familiar with the case. In my opinion, there is a GOOD possibility that the killer and the writer of the letter was NOT the same person. Do I need to tell you who my prime 2 suspects are?

Just my opinions,
Scott

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-209.245.11.77.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 209.245.11.77) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:23 am:

ps. OOPS! I meant "confident" not "confidant."

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-163.linkline.com - 64.30.217.163) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:24 pm:

Scott:The thing that bothers me is that people are telling me that a match has been made to Allen! When I question them how they got their information they tell me it was from an article in the Examiner or some paper that took their story from that write up.

I reread that article several times and what I get is there has been no match thus far, at least the detectives indicate that they cannot make such a claim.

A woman told me that there was a story on t.v. and'they said there was a match among the prime suspect and the DNA taken from a Zodiac envelope!' Well, fine, but where did they get that information?Upon closer questioning the show was reporting what an article stated!Guess which article!

You would think that in an age of rapid communication,etc.,one could get accurate information, but this is not always the case!

I suspect, based on that "article",that there is at least one or more suspects that they will compare DNA to,but in what order I do not know.

Of course, and rightly so, Allen's will be compared 'first' and if that fails, then the others. I am sure they will continue with other viable suspects as part of the investigation.

No one's theories count here -only the cold hard scientific facts which all must accept. This goes for the RPD and their suspect to be sure-"all" means we amatuers too!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (92.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.92) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:29 pm:

Howard, the trouble is that people scan the article without bothering to actually read it.

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs0mg.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.2.208) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:47 pm:

Howard, I wondered about that story too. I work in an industry that leaks like a Russian sub,
and when a story appears that something "might"
happen, that often means that the reporter knows
it "will" happen, but can't say so officially yet.
So if that article was written according to the "standards" of journalism in my industry, I would take it to mean that the DNA match against Allen had already been made. As it is, I don't know
how to take that article; I'm inclined to think
the author was just jumping to conclusions.
Wouldn't be the first time that had happened!

By Mark (Mark) (19-120-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net - 24.237.120.19) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:48 pm:

Howard-you raise a very valid point, I think along with this "age of rapid communications" we also have a problem with people rapidly reading or watching these communications! Then of course when these people relay this incorrect information the rumor tends to get even more distorted. It certainly would be nice if people would take the time to properly digest the material but in this age of the 5 second sound byte I don't know. Mark

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-163.linkline.com - 64.30.217.163) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:10 am:

Doug: You are right!We have a generation of people being spoon fed news and they are not used to READING carefully and then analyzing what they have heard or read, as they are used to the commentator or writer telling them what to think!

No matter what the science will eventually show ;we can at least say we had the only suspects that DEMONSTRATED the ability to KILL and were convicted for those murders!Of course, we present-in our estimation- many other evidences of guilt based on our research.

None of the 'prominent suspects have EVER been charged and convicted for murder one-and this includes BB the Riverside suspect.

I have seen no SOLID proof that any of these suspects committed murder-and neither have the police.

It is the same with the Jack the Ripper case;in that none of the suspects ever demonstrated the penchant to take human life. Not one was ever convicted of murder, except George Chapman ,who murdered 3 women-and he happens to be my suspect in the Ripper murders.He was found guilty and hung for his known murders.

Chief Inspector Abberlane-the investigator who was the most experienced and best informed on the case took Chapman as his prime suspect,and one of his reasons-he had others-was that Chapman DEMONSTRATED he could kill human beings!

I am well aware of the arguments against this kind of thinking as I know there are many components that make up a case, but I am only pointing out a fact in the Z case.

So many 'good '(and they are)suspects, but none of them convicted murderers!Lets see if that will change-just FYI.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-163.linkline.com - 64.30.217.163) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:18 am:

Roger: Read what the detective says about the suspect and a possible match-it sure seems there isn't any inside info -instead he is urging caution should there be no match!

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs181.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.5.1) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 06:23 am:

I think the problem with the story might be with the first sentence - "All indicators point to Arthur Leigh Allen...". That might lead someone
into thinking they meant "DNA indicators".

Roger

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-th012.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.47) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 08:43 am:

Howard: You're right about people jumping to conclusions based on peripheral readings of the newspapers and what they have seen on the TV. It's sad that so many people base their conclusions on what they have seen on TV or read in the newspapers. I, for one, will draw no such conclusions until the authorities (FBI or police) have stated in no uncertain terms that a positive DNA match has been made to one of the Z suspects.
I just wonder what will happen if/when such a statement has been made? Will the Z case lose it's alluring aspects if the police officially close the case? Even if a positive match is made to ALA, this doesn't necessarily mean that the case is officially closed. There are still other possibilities. Perhaps ALA wasn't working alone is the first that comes to mind. It seems to me that, 32 years down the road, it would be nearly impossible to close the case permanently. There are simply too many variables. A lot of it depends, it seems to me, on what else can be ascertained from the items seized following the search conducted at ALA's home in '91. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. But a positive DNA match would go a long way in quelling my own suspicions about ALA.

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg034.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.34) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:13 pm:

The night before the Examiner ran their story, a reporter contacted me asking for information on the suspect. They didn't name the suspect, and I figured that they knew who it was but didn't want to tip their hand in case I didn't. I named three names -- Allen, the SF businessman, and another low-profile guy -- and gave some background info on each.

You can imagine my surprise when I heard from another prominent Z researcher who said that the Examiner thought the suspect was Rick Marshall!

Here's my guess: someone leaked the DNA test story to the SFX. The SFX did some quick research and came up with Arthur Allen as the most likely suspect. They needed to scoop the Chronicle, so they went with it and the result was an article that could have run five years ago.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc072.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.52) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:51 pm:

I wouldn't worry too much about the Examiner articles. If Tom doesn't post the real story upon his return, I will...

By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-72-1.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.72.1) on Friday, May 25, 2001 - 10:18 am:

Ok, guys. What's the real story?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg041.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.36) on Friday, May 25, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

Mike R. just told me that the Vallejo Times-Herald ran a story debunking the Examiner article from start to finish. I'm waiting for a copy of the VTH piece, but it looks like we're further from a resolution than the SFX suggested.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com