Arthur Leigh Allen's forgery letter


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: Arthur Leigh Allen's forgery letter

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-63.211.246.241.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 63.211.246.241) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 11:18 am:

I've just read the new items that Tom has posted since his most recent trip to the Bay area. The Sonoma County material is truly disturbing. However, it is the letter that ALA forged that has me somewhat heated. Why go through all of the trouble to forge a letter to try and take the heat off of yourself if you don't have anything to hide? If I were a suspect in an unsolved murder case, but knew that I was innocent, I'd do everything within my power to cooperate with the police. I certainly wouldn't attempt to falsify a document to take the heat off of me. ALA's forged letter is very disturbing considering the fact that he was trying to untether himself from the Zodiac case. Very strange behavior indeed. If ALA wasn't the Zodiac, what did he have to worry about? It just doesn't seem like the actions of someone who has nothing to hide. Again, if I were a suspect in a murder case but knew that I was innocent, what would I have to worry about? Also, the fact that ALA claimed that "his palms became sweaty" every time a new homicide was uncovered just seems bizarre. That he would become physically nervous is simply incredulous to me. Why would he be nervous if he had nothing to hide? This strange behavior on ALA's part is genuinely troubling to me. It seems much more than pure coincidence.

Scott

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-tf01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.137) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 12:39 pm:

Yet another connection between Allen and Zodiac is their sending of dubious letters.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-th043.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.63) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 05:36 pm:

Allen mentioned this letter in a 1991 interview with the SF Examiner, and while I was tempted to cite it in my article on the case against him, the fact that he couldn't produce it seemed pretty suspicious and I dodged it. Tom, did the SCSO state outright that it was a forgery, or was it an implication?

Another interesting thing about the Allen update is the fact that no one from SFPD was concerned about Allen being released on parole. One would think that, if Toschi et al were so convinced that he was the Zodiac, then they would do everything they could to ensure that he remained in custody for as long as possible, even if on an unrelated charge.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-tl01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.137) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 07:03 pm:

Jake, Jim Silver told me in 1999 that the letter was an absolute forgery. He also told VPD in 1991, leading to it being seized. The forged letter was even mentioned in a 1992 report by Det. Bawart.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-209.245.13.254.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 209.245.13.254) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 07:32 pm:

Jake: You make a good point about SFPD not being that concerned about Allen's release. But in all probability, there was nothing that they could do. However, I'd be willing to bet that ALA was closely monitored upon his release. This might explain why Z faded into oblivion after '78. If ALA was Z, and knew that he was being closely watched, what choice would he have but to lay low? Forced into early retirement, as it were.

Tom: The handwriting comparisons that you posted were remarkable. I find it hard to believe that they were dismissed by an expert (Morrill?). I'm correct in my statement aren't I? Even I could note numerous similarities. Am I overlooking something here?

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tr042.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.192) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 08:13 pm:

Scott wrote:
"But in all probability, there was nothing that they could do. However, I'd be willing to bet that ALA was closely monitored upon his release."

So you're willing to believe that Toschi and Co. eschewed the legal avenue (making a statement to the probation officer), and opted instead for a shady, semi-legal tail job out of their jurisdiction that could open them to a harassment lawsuit?

Come on, Scott!

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-tq01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.43) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 09:27 pm:

Scott, Morrill examined Allen's handwriting samples from 1971 and 1972. I don't know that he ever saw pre-Zodiac handwriting of Allen's.
(In 1971 Morrill used personal checks that Allen had written to check his handwriting. I have photostats, and I don't see how he could conclude anything with such little to go on.)

Jake, I bet Toschi and Armstrong (and quite a few others within law enforcement) were hopeful of Allen's release. It would be rather naive of anyone to think they were solely concerned about public safety; that's just not how the real world works. How can you nail a guy who is confined to a mental hospital? If they thought Allen was Zodiac, they most definitely would have wanted him sprung so he could slip up.

By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-201.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.75.201) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 09:56 pm:

Jake, what sort of statement could Toschi have made to Allen's PO regarding his release? Unless Toschi was involved in the molestation case all he could have said is that Allen was a suspect in another crime. You can bet that close tabs were kept on Allen after his release. As far as a tail? Who knows?

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ti041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.194.191) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 10:17 pm:

Jake: Give me a break. Are you related to ALA or something? Do you really believe that the multitude of jurisdictions that were investigating the Zodiac case at the time simply said, "Ah heck, he's already paying the price for his child molestation charge, let's give poor Mr. Allen a break and let him alone. What do you say?" That's one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard! A true homicide investigator, despite the jurisdiction, would be on ALA like a flea on a dog's butt! If ALA thought that he could get away with a harassment lawsuit, then why didn't he file one instead of forging a document to, in essence, accomplish the same thing? Do you honestly believe that ALA wasn't nearly constantly observed by police officers upon his release from Atescadero? As for "shady, semi-legal tail job(s)," are you going to sit there and say that undercover surveillance doesn't happen 24/7 in every major city in the world? Why don't you give me a good explanation for the forgery instead of knocking every shred of light that focuses on ALA?

Come on, Jake!

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wi053.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.43) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 06:39 am:

Scott wrote:
"Do you honestly believe that ALA wasn't nearly constantly observed by police officers upon his release from Atescadero?"

No, I don't. He was dogged by a cartoonist because the cops weren't interested.

Toschi and Co. may not have been able to intercede in the probation hearings, but they did have the opportunity to make a call, pay a visit, etc. Don't you think this would have been their first step if they were concerned about a serial killer being released?

"As for "shady, semi-legal tail job(s)," are you going to sit there and say that undercover surveillance doesn't happen 24/7 in every major city in the world?"

No, I'm not. But I'm telling you that there isn't a word about post-incarceration investigation of Allen in the VPD files until almost twenty years later.

"Why don't you give me a good explanation for the forgery instead of knocking every shred of light that focuses on ALA?"

Easy there, tiger. The forgery is bizarre but frankly irrelevant, and as far as I know, I'm under no obligation to "give you" anything. The simple fact is that Allen was discarded as a suspect after the '72 search. TWENTY YEARS later, he was implicated by a criminal with zero credibility: the only reason VPD followed up on it was because of Graysmith's book, and even then they stated that Allen was "dismissed as a suspect."

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tc023.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.158) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 02:34 pm:

Jake: Are you saying that he was dismissed as a suspect prior too, or following the '91 search warrant?

How can you say that "the forgery is bizarre but frankly irrelevant"? ALA was attempting to sever all ties between himself and Z, that much is patently clear. I know that you're under no obligation to "give me" anything, all I was looking for is your take on the forged letter. If you don't want to share your opinion, fine. But I'm of the opinion that the forged letter IS relevant, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Furthermore, if ALA was dismissed as a suspect, then why did he whine about being harassed by the police in the '91 ('92?) interview that he gave? I find it hard to believe that he was dismissed as a suspect and yet was issued a search warrant again in '91. What did Graysmith say in his book that the VPD didn't already know? If he'd been dismissed as a suspect, then why were so many items seized from his home in '91? For that matter, why was he the only suspect to EVER have a search warrant issued against him?

As for, "Don't you think this would have been their first step if they were concerned about a serial killer being released?" No, I don't. What could they have possibly told the probation board? "I know that ALA hasn't been convicted of murder charges, but couldn't you delay his release because he is a possible suspect in the Zodiac case?" That would have gone over about as well as a fart in church. I have to agree with Tom on this one. The only way they'd ever be able to nail him on murder charges is if he were a free man with the hope of him slipping up somewhere along the line. I honestly don't know if ALA was monitored upon his release or not. Perhaps not "officially," but it is possible that he was monitored unofficially. It happens all of the time.

With so many red flags springing up around ALA, I'm just curious as to why you seem so vehement about his innocence. I know that much of it is circumstantial and coincidental, but at what point does circumstance lead to high probability? It seems to me that no other suspect has as many red flags surrounding him as ALA did.

Sorry about the "are you related to him or something?" comment. That was just plain stupid on my part. At the sake of sounding like a suck-up, I DO value your opinions. My intentions were never meant to be derogatory. I'm just having a difficult time understanding your views on ALA.

Scott

By Socal (Socal) (66-74-213-87.san.rr.com - 66.74.213.87) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 03:25 pm:

At this point in time and after all these years, ALA just seems to have been investigated in every way possible. I'm inclined to think he can't be the Zodiac or at some point he would have been arrested and all this speculation would be over.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wc01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.13) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 03:28 pm:

The fact is, SFPD had no involvement in Allen's Sonoma County troubles. Allen plead guilty and was sentenced to Atascadero after two court-appointed psychiatrists determined he was a mentally disorded sex offender. (MDSO.) After two years of treatment, the same psychiatrists told the judge Allen was "cured." That is why Allen was released.
He wasn't accused of being a killer, there was no trial, and Toschi and Armstrong probably wouldn't have even been allowed in the court house. I'll bet SFPD didn't even know Allen was free until Allen wrote Toschi a letter.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wc01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.13) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 03:31 pm:

Socal, nobody gets arrested without a confession or a murder weapon...unless there is a DNA match, of course. Z was probably bright enough NOT to keep murder weapons lying around, I would think.

By Socal (Socal) (66-74-213-87.san.rr.com - 66.74.213.87) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 03:53 pm:

Well, they better hope for the DNA on ALA as a match, because they sure as hell aren't going to find a murder weapon now.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th034.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.34) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 04:25 pm:

Scott wrote:
"Are you saying that he was dismissed as a suspect prior too, or following the '91 search warrant?"

That was following the '91 search.

"How can you say that 'the forgery is bizarre but frankly irrelevant'? ALA was attempting to sever all ties between himself and Z, that much is patently clear. I know that you're under no obligation to "give me" anything, all I was looking for is your take on the forged letter. If you don't want to share your opinion, fine. But I'm of the opinion that the forged letter IS relevant, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks so."

I can't offer an explanation for why he would forge the letter, except for the obvious one, which was that he didn't want to be associated with the Z case any more. There's a bit of symmetry here -- Allen did a lot to incriminate himself by giving loaded answers to detectives in 1971, and ultimately got in over his head to the point where he felt he had to backpedal. Hence the forgery. I agree that said forgery looks worse for Allen than simply serving his time, but the guy was obviously a headcase, and there is an awful lot about him that I can't explain and don't want to understand.

"For that matter, why was he the only suspect to EVER have a search warrant issued against him?"

It was in the absence of any other suspects. I'd have searched his place, too, in 1972. Regardless, he was searched, forgotten, revived, and dismissed again. That pretty much explains itself to me. Remember, Richard Jewell was the only person to have a warrant issued against him in the Olympic Park bombing: you think that was enough to justify the media hatchet job that was done on him?

"As for, 'Don't you think this would have been their first step if they were concerned about a serial killer being released?' No, I don't."

Scott, if you can believe they'd tail him, why can't you believe that they'd at least write a letter beforehand stating their concerns? It wouldn't be the first time that law enforcement interceded on a parole or probation hearing.

"With so many red flags springing up around ALA, I'm just curious as to why you seem so vehement about his innocence. I know that much of it is circumstantial and coincidental, but at what point does circumstance lead to high probability? It seems to me that no other suspect has as many red flags surrounding him as ALA did."

I don't know if you've seen it, but I posted a fairly detailed examination of these red flags earlier this year. It's called "The Case Against Arthur Leigh Allen," and you can get to it from the main page of my site, linked below. The flags you mention look compelling from a distance, but if you look at each one up close you see that they're nothing more than contradictory stories piled atop one another. If you've seen the page already, I apologize for the redundancy, but I think I make my opinion and its foundation pretty clear there.

I guess the bottom line, as usual, is you either buy it or you don't. I guess each of us know where the other stands.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wf061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.195.181) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 06:42 pm:

Jake: Yes, we do know where each other stands. I have no problem in admitting that ALA stands atop my prime suspect list. However, I will reread your "Case against ALA" post on your web site.

One problem I'm debating at present time is the fact that ALA committed child molestation FOLLOWING the Z crimes. I'm not a criminal profiler, but it does seem odd to me that he would go from murderer to child molester. It seems that the other way around would be more logical. But then again, when dealing with a person that was obviously as twisted as ALA was, logical reasoning may simply not apply.

Thanks for the info,

Scott

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wn01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.137) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 07:18 pm:

Scott, Allen was molesting kids before the Z crimes started. That's how he lost his teaching career.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tq081.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.81) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:07 pm:

Scott,
What is even more odd is that he would go back and forth -- Dirty Old Man vs. Brutal Cryptic Adult Killer and back again, but I guess anything is possible!!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb58512.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.133.18) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:32 pm:

I don't understand why some of you consider Allen as a child molester to be a strike against him being Zodiac. Would you have guessed Gacy to be married and a successful businessman? Or Ted Bundy to be an engaged-to-be-married young republican and volunteer at a rape crisis center? Give me a break.

If my goal was to get publicity through killing, like Z did, I would also choose innocent young people in secluded areas. That way, there would be no witnesses, an easy escape, and I would be assured that, due to my choice of victims, my future letters would get massive exposure.
Would my victims give insight into my sexuality? Nope.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (2.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.2) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:38 pm:

Tom, given the facts about Gacy and Bundy I'd put them way down at the bottom of the list as potential Zodiac suspects. These were persons not driven by pent-up anger and frustration but rather by the need for sexual stimulation through the commission of extreme acts. Looking at Allen's propensity for young boys I'm inclined to think that if he had murdered it would have been in the fashion of a Gacy, wherein sexual acts with minors progressed to the point of elaborate torture and murder scenarios.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb58512.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.133.18) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

Doug, we don't know that Zodiac was "driven by pent-up anger and frustration."

Allen also molested girls, by the way. He had a healthy appreciation for adult females, according to Don Cheney, and wasn't a homosexual. When he molested boys, he treated them sexually as if they were females.

Back to the forgery letter: It was pretty ingenius of him to concoct such a document while incarcerated at Atascadero.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (135.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.135) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 12:28 am:

Well, Tom, I feel pretty confident that Zodiac was driven by pent-up anger and frustration. I think his victimology speaks to the point very nicely, and I think most criminologists and other professionals in related fields would agree with me.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb7b414.ipt.aol.com - 172.183.180.20) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 12:48 am:

If Zodiac targeted prostitutes or migrant workers, surely his letters wouldn't have had the desired effect. And since his letters out numbered his victims by nearly a four-to-one ratio, that had to be a concern when choosing his victims.

The criminologists and other professionals you are referring to no doubt were shocked about Bundy and Gacy.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (175.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.175) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 07:23 am:

Yes, Tom, but people don't just wake up and say to themselves, "I think I'm going to write some letters in order to achieve public recognition; therefore, what shocking crimes can I commit in order to attain the necessary credibility." It works the other way around. They commit their murders based upon the particular demons that are driving them. It's a hard thing to work up to, and motivation is required. That motivation springs from the particular pathology of the individual. Once the crimes are committed, the publicity-seeking becomes the easy part.

The only "professional" (and she wasn't a professional in the field of criminology, as far as I know) who was surprised by Bundy was Ann Rule, who never quite got reconciled to the "nice" Bundy she had known turning out to be a cold-blooded killer. As for Gacy, only the media seem to have been taken in by him, although that's the way it usually is.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq082.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.200) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 06:15 pm:

Tom: I'm not at all inclined to take ALA off of my prime suspect list because he was a pedophile. After rereading your "Case Against ALA" pages, I realized the error in my last post. In fact, after some additional thought, it occurred to me that pedophilia could easily be considered as part of Z's criminal profile. After all, Z preyed upon helpless victims in the most cowardly manner: GUNPOINT. And children most definitely fall into the "helpless victims" category.

There have been innumerable instances when serial killers have preyed upon both the young and old, and many of these killers, as you well know, have maintained extremely abnormal sexual desires. I tend to agree with Graysmith (yes, you did read that correctly) when he characterizes Z as a "sexual sadist." That Z would act out his sexual aggressions by committing murder AND by molesting children (assuming that ALA, for example, was Z) is not at all a difficult conclusion to make.

Now, back to the forged letter, how far did this letter actually go before it was finally intercepted? At this point I really don't care who doesn't agree with me, the fact that he was trying to disassociate himself from Zodiac seems much more than coincidental.

Scott

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 06:25 pm:

I think the forged letter was another attempt by Allen to gain negative attention or taunt, as was his letter to Toschi he sent after his release from Atascadero.

By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust193.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 63.21.75.193) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 09:17 pm:

Apparently, Allen thought school children made nice targets. What a sick, disturbed b*stard.Tom, I couldn't find reference to Allens letter to Toschi on the ALA link & I lost my Graysmith textbook.Could you refer or remind me of the contents and events surrounding. Thanks.

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs00i.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.0.18) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 10:36 pm:

Scott, I believe Allen was trying to disassociate himself from Zodiac because.....
he was already associated with Zodiac!
Seriously (sorta) I get the impression that the
forged letter was associated with a specific
event or need of Allen, as yet unknown. Given
that he was already a suspect, I'm not sure we
can tell anything from the this letter other than
he, understandably, no longer wanted to be a
suspect.

Roger

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb61926.ipt.aol.com - 172.182.25.38) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 10:43 pm:

Roger, if Allen was tired of being associated with the Zodiac case, there were many obvious things he could have done rather than forge a letter. For example, Allen could have ditched his Zodiac watch, which he continued to wear until it was seized in 1991 by the Vallejo PD. The watch was a source of suspicion for years, and Allen knew it. He even wore it to court in 1975 when he plead guilty.

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs00i.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.0.18) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 11:19 pm:

Tom:
Roger, if Allen was tired of being associated with the Zodiac case, there were many obvious things he could have done rather than forge a letter.

Roger: So why didn't he do those things? Which things are a guilty person more or less likely to do? Which things are an innocent person more or less likely to do?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb7870e.ipt.aol.com - 172.183.135.14) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 11:21 pm:

My point is the forgery was probably an attempt at associating himself with the homicides rather than the opposite.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ti044.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.194.194) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 08:07 am:

Roger: I feel that you answered your own questions. ("so why didn't he do those things? Which things are a guilty person more or less likely to do? Which things are an innocent person more or less likely to do?") Were these questions meant to be rhetorical?

Instead of filing a harassment suit against any one of the jurisdictions that, I believe, were at least keeping ALA on the periphery of their investigations, he chose to forge a letter in an attempt to accomplish the same thing. This, it seems to me, is the actions of a guilty person, not the reverse.

Additionally, you said, "I'm not sure that we can tell anything from this letter other than he, understandably, no longer wanted to be a suspect." So why forge a letter that, if intercepted, would only serve to draw suspicion upon himself? Does this seem like the reasoning of an innocent person? I believe that Tom's assertion that "the forgery was probably an attempt at associating himself with the homicides" is a pretty valid deduction. At no point did ALA conduct himself in the manner of someone who was innocent.

Finally, I'm of the opinion that MANY things can be ascertained from the forgery letter. Granted, many will argue that any conclusions or theories drawn from the letter are purely speculative. But again I ask, at what point does speculation start to lean toward probability? The letter ultimately served to associate ALA with the Zodiac, not the reverse. Why would ALA choose (he had to know of the inherent risks involved in his attempted forgery) to do that? Doesn't seem like the actions of an innocent man to me. Rather, it seems like an attempt to associate himself with Z. Again, why would he want to do that?

Scott

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj013.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.178) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

Scott wrote:
"Roger: I feel that you answered your own questions. ("so why didn't he do those things? Which things are a guilty person more or less likely to do? Which things are an innocent person more or less likely to do?") Were these questions meant to be rhetorical?"

Roger may have been implying that, if Allen had discarded the watch, people would have said that he was acting guilty by ditching the evidence once the cops had caught on. Similarly, if he hadn't forged the letter, people would say that in 20 years as a suspect (which is in truth more like three months cumulative), he had never sought to distance himself from the crimes. (If this wasn't Roger's implication, then I'll claim it as mine.)

"Does this seem like the reasoning of an innocent person?"

Allen was not, in the popular sense of the word, an innocent person. He was a convicted child molester, and there are still law enforcement agents who think he was a murderer (though, from what I gather, they don't believe he was the Zodiac). That said, Allen's mind probably didn't work like yours or mine, and our amateur status precludes reliable estimation of his reasoning.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-th011.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.46) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:05 pm:

Jake: If he sought to distance himself from the Z case, then why didn't he do so by filing a harassment lawsuit against the police? This is something that you mentioned yourself in an earlier post. Do you honestly believe that ALA was in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" scenario? Granted, "our amateur status precludes reliable estimation(s) of his reasoning," but forging a letter instead of seeking an alternate route to disassociate himself from Z remains, at best, highly suspicious.

Scott

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:31 pm:

Jake, saying that Allen was a suspect for only "three months cumulative" it completely false. Where did you come up with that?
From the time Manhattan Beach alerted SFPD about Allen until SFPD served the search warrant was over a year all by itself.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg021.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.26) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:44 pm:

Scott wrote:
"If he sought to distance himself from the Z case, then why didn't he do so by filing a harassment lawsuit against the police?"

Judging by the record, I'd say that it's because the police weren't harrassing him: they tossed his place and left him alone, and there isn't much a citizen can do about that. Allen's real target should have been the media, who were the ones trampling his reputation. Of course, I'm reminded of the Massachusetts man who was accused of murder by Boston Magazine: he tried to sue for defamation, but was judged "libel-proof" by the courts because his reputation was already so low that it couldn't sink any further.

One might ask the same of Mike O, by the way. He was never accused by the police (which would have provided journalistic cover), only by a private citizen and then a radio station that lured him on-air under false pretenses. This was in turn reported by newspapers on both coasts, and had the makings of a sweet libel suit: the citizen accuser was probably a futile defendant, but the radio and print media both had deep pockets. In almost twenty years of nominal suspect status, there has yet to be a lawsuit, and here's a guy who had every legitimate right to file one. Does this look like something an innocent person would do -- or not do?

"Allen looked very, very good for a while," Toschi said. "(But) everything turned out to be negative." (SF Examiner, 26 July 1991, parentheses in original)

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg023.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.28) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:56 pm:

Tom -- ouch, ya got me. I fused the '72 and '91 searches and misremembered it as a 1971 search. Mea maxima culpa.

--Jake

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 08:42 pm:

Allen would have liked to sue , he said he didn't have enough money to do that. I believe in the beginning he liked the attention he was getting, knowing he wasn't the Zodiac, and not a sole could prove it,he played it up. Then the real Z let him play with it for a while,even made a phone call to VPD,saying Allen told him that he would kill a Cabby back in 69. That phone call was made to VPD in 91. In 1990 I met Pam H.and Harvey Hines ,before that I had only a face, Harvey gave me his name after I picked his face out of a picture line up. If I knew Allen was a suspect so did others, so the real z could have also. Better yet,maybe Allen and Kane knew each other? Then again, Allen said he didn't know that punk who called from Tahoe!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb51cde.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.28.222) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 08:48 pm:

Sandy, it was Ralph Spinelli, not Zodiac, who called VPD and reported Allen as a suspect.

If Allen wanted people to stop associating him with Zodiac, hence his public threat of a lawsuit, why on Earth did he claim he was hiring Melvin Belli???

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 09:24 pm:

Tom, did Ralph live in Tahoe, or did he just make the call from Tahoe? Belli was the best at that time, Allen didn't say he hired Belli,he said if he had the money he would hire him. Everyone in this area thought a lot of Belli, I met him one night when he gave a speech on the JFK shooting. He was a household word for anyone wanting the best at that time,and he was local.When I read in the paper that the call came from Tahoe,well you know who I thought it had to be? Did Allen know Ralph?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb51cde.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.28.222) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 09:33 pm:

Sandy, Allen implied he had hired Belli by claiming that Belli had advised him not to elaborate on his case against VPD.

Ralph Spinelli had lived in Tahoe, but at the time he came forward with accusations against Allen he was incarcerated. At one time in the 1950s Allen kicked Spinelli's butt.

Belli looked half dead in 1969, so I can't believe he was all that active as an attorney in 1991. Maybe he was still known as a local celeb, but not someone a person of little means would seriously consider as representation.

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs1as.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.5.92) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

Scott: No, my questions were definitely not rhetorical, and I did not answer my own questions.
My post was originally much longer, but it was getting late and I was rambling, so I cut it down
to the essential question I wanted to ask. Forging a letter like is definitely not something one would expect from innocent, law-abiding citizen with faith in the system, and that the system would work out for them in the long run; I don't recognize this as a description of Allen.
My guess that letter was intended to obtain some short term result; what that would have been we don't know yet; maybe further research will turn it up. It's hard to imagine what Allen thought the long-term result would be; perhaps he was just not a long-term thinker.

Roger

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tn053.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.68) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 10:21 pm:

All this talk of a harrassment suit by Scott is quite crazy. One thing about lawyers, they really do not like to take on unwinnable cases, especially by n'eer do well losers like Allen. The depts. had every right to investigate Allen as a suspect, that is what they do. If anything, it looks as though he was way, way underinvestigated.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 10:44 pm:

Tom Belli had white hair, just because there is snow on the roof,doesn't mean there is not a fire inside! Maybe Allen couldn't think of any other names off the top of his head? Didn't Belli get remarried around that time?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb5367f.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.54.127) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 11:46 pm:

The dinosaurs called him pops...that's how old Belli was.

Sandy, Allen claimed Melvin Belli was his attorney, and that Belli had told him not to discuss the case.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq023.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.147) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 09:05 am:

I really have to wonder if certain people bother to read the entire thread before throwing out ridiculous statements?

Sylvie: I wasn't the one who originally put forth the idea of filing a harassment suit. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who made the original suggestion. By the way, how many lawyers do you know? There are many, many lawyers who will take on "unwinnable cases." It's been my experience with lawyers that money talks, regardless of the case and regardless of the client. Of course, this doesn't apply to ALL lawyers, so don't interpret this as a blanket statement.

My assertion is that ALA could have done many other things that would have accomplished the same thing as a forged letter. As Tom suggested, he could have ditched his Zodiac watch, for example. He could have distanced himself from the Z case both mentally and physically, and could have cooperated with the police every chance that he got. In Toschi's own words, he'd told Graysmith that, "He cooperated with us, but only under much duress." ("Zodiac," p.270.)

As for ALA's economic inability to hire a lawyer, I don't buy it. Didn't he own a plane, two boats, and several cars? He could have retained a lawyer by simply selling any one of these items.

There seem to be a lot of people who believe that the forged letter was the only course of action that ALA could have taken to disassociate himself from Z. Sorry, but I just don't agree. The fact remains that forging a letter is highly suspicious, no matter how you choose to slice it.

Furthermore, even if the police didn't closely monitor ALA's movements upon his release, his parole officer did. Perhaps all of the police agencies felt that this was sufficient enough. However, I have my doubts about that. I still maintain that ALA was being watched, even if it was in an unofficial capacity.

Scott

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (209.8.9.221) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 09:43 am:

One point I missed about the forgery: what did Allen actually do with it? If it only turned up in the '91 search, then he obviously held on to it and, unless it was a copy, did nothing else with it. If he had sent it to the judge, certainly this honor would have checked up with the purported author and discovered the fake. the fact that the return is typed rather than typeset letterhead is a dead giveaway that it did not come from any state agency. Unless Tom has other information, I can only conclude that Allen never did a thing with it, in which case it is absolutely meaningless, as it is to speculate on what his purpose was in creating it. None of the purposes suggested above in this thread has any validity at all if Allen never used the letter or sent it to anyone.

And, Tom: Come on: "ingenius [sic]"? All he did was type it on an ordinary -- apparently manual -- typewriter, just like the cover letter. Only made the weakest attempt to make it look like official letterhead (which it does not) by typing the return on a different machine. And misspelled "homicides". Real "ingenius".

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb40202.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.2.2) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 11:58 am:

Peter, why and how would Allen's judge letter and forgery letter end up in his Sonoma County file, which was closed in 1977, if it was only seen by Vallejo PD of Solano County in 1991?

Who else do we know of who misspelled common words, apparently on purpose? Get the hint?

Do you visit the rest of the site, or just troll around the message board?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 01:53 pm:

The signature at the bottom of the letter was Jim Silver's, although the letter was forged. I'd say that's pretty ingenious, especially considering he was inside a mental hospital at the time.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wi072.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.52) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

Scott,
If you read the post, you'll see I never said you brought up the "harrassment suit first, but you--count em-- brought it up the most. As far as how many lawyers I know, for whatever that matters, well plenty actually, for some reason nearly everyone I graduated from UCLA with (in my field) wound up becoming one, and if there is money to be gained it is via a "win", settlement (which never would have happened) or a wealthy client who does not really mind losing attorney fees plus court costs.
I highly doubt Allen was the man of independent means that you suggest. If so, instead of working for minimum wage at a hardware store, he'd have taked advantage of all his free time sleazing around for little girls.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th034.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.34) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:14 pm:

A couple of points:

Tom wrote:
"Allen claimed Melvin Belli was his attorney, and that Belli had told him not to discuss the case."

I'm not sure when that claim was made, but according to an August 1991 interview with the VTH, Allen said he "wants an attorney but can't afford to hire one on his $500-a-month disability checks. He said he's considered contacting Melvin Belli..."

Scott wrote:
"I wasn't the one who originally put forth the idea of filing a harassment suit."

I didn't suggest that Allen file a harrassment suit based on the evidence at hand -- I made the comment in response to speculation that the police might have been tailing him without probable cause. That is to say, it was a hypothetical course of action based on hypothetical justification.

Tom later wrote:
"Peter, why and how would Allen's judge letter and forgery letter end up in his Sonoma County file, which was closed in 1977, if it was only seen by Vallejo PD of Solano County in 1991?"

According to a July 1991 article in the SF Examiner corroborated by the 1991 search warrant results, this letter was seized by Vallejo PD during their penultimate search of the Fresno St. residence. Maybe it was shared with Sonoma because of its origin.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wi072.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.52) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:39 pm:

Please excuse the spelling errors in last post--typing too fast. The other possibility would have been Pro Bono, but highly unlikely that such would have been offered to as unsympathetic a character as Allen.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb69044.ipt.aol.com - 172.182.144.68) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 03:48 pm:

I don't understand why you guys are so confused. Let's try again:
While in Atascadero, Allen sent the Sonoma judge a copy of his forged letter. It went into his Sonoma County file, which ended in 1977. Vallejo PD found the letter in 1991 during a search, as well as the items Allen used to make the forgery, and kept it. VPD would have had no reason to send Sonoma County a copy of a letter that was created 15 years earlier. And if they had, it probably wouldn't have landed in Allen's original file, but if it did, there would have been a note explaining the circumstances.

Now, I'm sure Peter H sees all sorts of problems with this, such as:
"Do we know FOR SURE that Allen didn't put that letter in his own file to make himself look guilty?"
or
"Is there a report of the report of the report of the forgery?"

I'm starting to regret posting the Sonoma stuff in the first place.

By Spencer (Spencer) (tcache-tm01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.43) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 06:56 pm:

Jake wrote:
>this letter was seized by Vallejo PD during their penultimate search of the Fresno St. residence.

"penultimate" means "next to last", is that what you meant there? The 1991 search, as opposed to the post-mortem search of ALA's Fresno Street house in 1992? Not to mince words, but it isn't entirely clear in your post.

Spencer

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wi073.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.53) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 07:17 pm:

Thanks for clarifying that for our lexiconically-deficient readers, Spencer. Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-209.245.13.138.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 209.245.13.138) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 10:24 pm:

Okay, let me just go back to basics. The fact remains that ALA chose to create a forgery letter to either disassociate or, perhaps, associate himself with Zodiac. He didn't elect to do any of the other options that have been suggested in this thread. No matter how you choose to look at it, ALA's actions were HIGHLY suspicious, show lack of reasoning, and demonstrate his dubious nature. Does the forged letter prove that he was Z? Of course not. However, the letter does serve as yet another point of comparison between ALA and Z. This, unto itself, makes the letter a valuable item in this, as yet unsolved, murder case, and I applaud Tom for choosing to post it.

Scott

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs07h.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.0.241) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:33 am:

Scott:
No matter how you choose to look at
it, ALA's actions were HIGHLY suspicious, show lack of reasoning, and demonstrate his dubious nature

Roger:
Exactly. Absolutely. Definitely.

Scott:
Does the forged letter prove that he was Z?
Of course not.

Roger: Definitely.

Scott: Of course not. However, the letter does serve as yet another point of comparison between ALA and Z. This, unto itself, makes the letter a valuable
item in this, as yet unsolved, murder case, and I applaud Tom for choosing to post it.

Roger: Absolutely

By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs07h.dialup.mindspring.com - 199.174.0.241) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:35 am:

Tom: regret nothing

Roger

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq071.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.190) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 07:25 am:

Roger: I thank you.

Tom: Roger wrote, "Tom: regret nothing"

Exactly.

Scott

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg1495.capecod.net - 63.211.189.225) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 09:58 am:

Tom: I agree: regret nothing. At least not the Sonoma postings. Maybe your shoot-from-the-hip responses to people sincerely interested in your work with legitimate, sincere questions about it.

E.G.:

"Peter, why and how would Allen's judge letter and forgery letter end up in his Sonoma County file, which was closed in 1977, if it was only seen by Vallejo PD of Solano County in 1991?"

You tell me. That's what my question was. How and when did it get there? Nowhere in your discussion of the Sonoma file did you mention when it was closed or state that the letter was actually sent to the judge. Your posting of it said only that it was forged in 75 and seized by VPD in 91. Question still stands: what exactly did ALA do with it, and yes, how do you know that it came from the judge? It may be a fair assumption, but it is important to know whether its an assumption based on the mere fact that its in the county file.

If the letter went to the judge on the indicated date, why no repercussions? Uttering a forged instrument to a judge would get anyone at least investigated, and I can't believe the judge or anyone else would take this letter at face value. Its hard to believe that the judge's suspiscions wouldn't have bee aroused, and that it wouldn't have been recognized as a forgery as soon as it was questioned. Perhaps it was dismissed because it came from a psych ward.

Also: Don't you wonder why the file was closed in 77 if formal probation was 5 years? Not one PO report after the 77 one you posted? No minute order from the judge approving or adopting or rejecting the probation report? No final report in 82?



"Who else do we know of who misspelled common words, apparently on purpose? Get the hint?"

Some hint. I think the conventional wisdom is that Z misspelled deliberately, probably to disguise his actual intelligence. With the rest of the letter so carefully crafted, right down to the typist notation at the bottom, do you really think even Z would have let such a glaring misspelling go?

"Do you visit the rest of the site, or just troll around the message board? "

I comb the site. And others. That's how I know in some detail what information you left out of your posting. You want to tell me just what answers I should have got from visiting other parts of the site? I apologize in advance for missing them.

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg1495.capecod.net - 63.211.189.225) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 10:11 am:

Oh. And as for ALA's ingenuity: a genuine James Silver letter, a typewriter or two, and five minutes with a Xerox machine -- even 1975 technology -- is all he would have needed. Copy the real letter with everything but the signature and letterhead whited out. Type in the phony text. Copy the result. Brilliant.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb611cd.ipt.aol.com - 172.182.17.205) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:28 pm:

If you would start using just a dash of common sense, you wouldn't have so many questions that waste time and space.

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg1795.capecod.net - 64.152.211.17) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 07:02 pm:

You know, Tom, Einstein thought he was using a dash of common sense when he invented the "cosmological constant" to explain why light didn't travel _exactly_ the way special relativity predicted it would in the actual cosmos. He observed that the only other explanation for the speed of light was an expanding universe, which he assumed was impossible, because common sense tells us that the universe is static and infinite in time and space, hence the Mobius effect of traveling forever in a straight line and a bunch of other stuff. Then came along a guy named Hubbel (sound familiar?) who measured a couple of things Einstein never thought of, or assumed away, and discovered "red shift". (look it up) Turns out the universe _is_ expanding, and the "cosmological constant" is not some sort of abstract mathematical super gravity, as Einstein postulated with common sense, but the precise velocity of the expansion of the universe. Biggest mistake of my life, said Einstien, and without Hubbel, we would have a static universe, no big bang theory, no "Brief Hisatory of Time" and no examination of a lot of other assumptions and common sense conclusions that have no basis in fact.

Examine your assumptions.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tf062.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.47) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 12:05 am:

Holy s***, I never dreamed that such a straight forward piece of investigative material would ever lead to one of the most hyperbolized analogies that I've ever heard!

Peter: Where do you think this case would be if only the scientific method were applied? Solved? Does it really take anything more than common sense to demonstrate the significance of the forged letter? If the file was closed in '77, and the forged letter was a part of the file, where does the confusion exist? Common sense dictates that a) the letter was written prior to '77 and b) it had no relation as to the nature of ALA's conviction, therefore a judge may never have seen it, let alone mandate that further investigation was necessary and c) if ALA had in his possession a copy of the letter during the '91 search warrant, that he'd probably used legal means to obtain a copy of his file at some point following his release. Perhaps he tossed the unsavory parts of the file and kept only the letter. Who knows? Who cares? This doesn't alter the fact that the forged letter exists, does it? Or the fact that it was constructed by one of the major suspects in the case, right?

Where has Tom been negligent in his investigative prowess? He came upon the letter, detailed its origins, and posted it for all of the rest of us amateur sleuths. The significance of your questions are nothing compared to the existence of the document itself. Are you one of those guys who needs to see the sunrise everyday to prove to yourself that the earth is still spinning on its axis? Are you convinced that something exists beyond the veil of common rationality that will ultimately solve this case? At this point, 32 years after the fact, what resources do we have left besides rationality, common sense, and determined investigation?

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. Facts ARE important. One such example is the FACT that the forged letter exists. It doesn't get any more simplified or complex than that, does it? At this point it seems that you're doing nothing more than splitting hairs.

Okay Tom, we know that your withholding additional information about the letter. For that matter, because you have all of the facts right at your fingertips, we know that you know who Zodiac was/is. Don't hold out because your 4 hour video is selling so well. Give it up. Tell us who Zodiac was! LOL!!!

Scott

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (209.8.9.214) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 07:59 am:

Look, guys, we can all agree that science alone can't do it, that we have to get creative, use a little imagination, or common sense or whatever tools we have available. That's nothing more than agreeing at a meaningless level of abstraction. Look a little closer. What we are disagreeing on is not whether those are good things, but what those terms mean. Take "common sense". Tom's common sense implies that since the file was closed in 77, and the letter was addressed to the judge, that that's how the letter got in the file: it was sent to the judge. Scott, on the other hand, declares that common sense "dictates" that the judge may never have seen it. Which was precisely my point. My direct question to Tom was, "What exactly did ALA do with the letter?" Since common sense dictates two different conclusions to two different people who both think they disagree with me, it would be nice to know what the facts dictate.

As for the scientific method not being sufficient: what do you think the point of the analogy was? Precisely that the scientifc method was insufficient because of a failure to examine assumptions. (Assumptions like "the file was closed in 77, ergo the letter had to have been sent to the judge, ergo there must have been something very significant about it.") Einsteins application of common sense dictated that the universe is infinite and static. Hubell's application of common sense told him to question Einstein's assumption and hypothesize an expanding, finite universe.

And as for your imagining that I ever implied that Tom has been negligent in his investigation:
"Honi soit qui mal y pense". It's not his investigation, it's his treatment of the facts that he uncovers and the conclusion he draws from them that I question. Such as ALA's "ingenuity". And why or whether the ALA file was closed in 77. And what the heck ALA actually did with the forged letter, which I still think is the key to its significance. And whether anyone thinks its significant that ALA may have known the Alphabet Bomber while incarcerated at Atascadero. Anyone else think these questions are a waste of time and space? I'll defer.

P.S. Please recognize that in my analogy, Tom corresponds to the role of Einstein, and I to the lesser figure of Hubbel.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wd062.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.177) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 04:40 pm:

Scott: you sound like a Tom Wannabe!
Does Tom look like he needs any HELP???

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tc011.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.151) on Saturday, June 02, 2001 - 01:28 pm:

Sylvie: What the heck are you talking about? Are you calling me a "Tom Wannabe" just because I happen to agree with him on a number of points? My own opinions, deductions, conclusions, and concepts concerning the Z case were formulated LONG before I ever knew that this site existed.

No, Tom doesn't "look like he needs any HELP," but don't I have the right to interject my thoughts wherever I feel like it? If some of my posts seem as though I'm defending Tom, it's because I agree with him on a lot of issues with regard to this case. What do you care?

Now, go pick up your crayons like your mother asked.

Scott

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tq051.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.66) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 02:19 am:

Sorry Scott,
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I was just doing my Judge Judy impression.
Really, I was just kidding but that is always the problem with cyberspace, one cannot really tell what jest of things is.
It is certainly okay to have the same point of view as Tom, plus you are definitly more loquacious.
Back to ZZZZZZ

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-63.211.240.135.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 63.211.240.135) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 01:18 pm:

Sylvie: It's cool. I don't get offended very easily, but your right, it's hard to extract verbal intent in cyberspace. Sorry about my derisive comment. Besides, you're a former Bruin, so you must be pretty cool.

Respectfully,
Scott

By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-73-196.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.73.196) on Friday, June 08, 2001 - 11:30 pm:

One other thing the two letters demonstrate is Allen's ability to change his handwriting.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb58879.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.136.121) on Friday, June 08, 2001 - 11:38 pm:

Whathefu#!@ are you talking about???
They letters were typed.
(You were kidding...right?)

By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-109.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.75.109) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:13 am:

He signed them.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p75.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.75) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:31 am:

Another small similarity between Allen's forged letter and some of the Zodiac's letters is the willingness of the author to "split" words betw-
een lines,if you know what I mean.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac95bb42.ipt.aol.com - 172.149.187.66) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 01:17 pm:

Joe, the forgery was not signed by Allen. He managed to attach a legit signature from Jim Silver to his fake letter.

By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-205-196-158.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.205.196.158) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 01:57 pm:

How did he manage to do that?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (cbrg1852.capecod.net - 64.152.211.74) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 06:18 am:

Joe: Read above. According to the info Tom posted, what was sent to the judge was a copy of whatever ALA concocted. Easy enough to do that with a copy of a genuine letter from Silver and a copy machine. What we don't know is the exact nature of the original concoction that VPD apparently seized in the 91 search.