Allen the Molester
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: Allen the Molester
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-tq01.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 10:41 pm:|
I've updated The Arthur Leigh Allen File to include two reports concerning Allen's
1974 child molesting conviction in Sonoma County.
WARNING: The reports are very graphic.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ti041.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 11:32 pm:|
Tom: The ALA updates were both disturbing and informative. Thanks for sharing. Did
former FBI agent Douglas ever publish/conduct a criminal profile of the Zodiac? If so, was
child molestation ever a factor in his profile? For that matter, has ANYONE from the FBI's
BSU ever profiled Z? It would be interesting to know what the profilers would have to say
Ps. No doubt about it, ALA was one sick individual, even if he wasn't Z. I wish he would have been imprisoned and allowed to carouse with the general prison population. Perhaps he would have never claimed to be "attracted to women" in front of his parole board!
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-72-202.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 09:33 am:|
Douglas and others were in the process of profiling the Zodiac when it was halted from on high. The reasons were never made clear to him. The closest thing to a profile from him have been on AMW and in his book "The Cases That Haunt Us."
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tc021.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:13 pm:|
Joe: Did J. Douglas ever attribute child molestation as a possible characteristic of Z
in either AMW or "The Cases That Haunt Us"? Granted, I need to find a copy of
the book and read it for myself, but any info that your willing to provide would be
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ta034.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:20 pm:|
"For that matter, has ANYONE from the FBI's BSU ever profiled Z?"
VPD consulted VICAP in early 1991, and the resultant profile could have been written by one of us: the killer "probably gained as much pleasure from taunting the police as he did of [sic]the killing itself;" the Zodiac was either still killing or "had moved from the area, died, or ... the police had come very close to apprehending him," scaring him into hiatus; Z was the type who would "keep souvenirs or trophies [to] relive the incident[s] many times over," etc.
"If so, was child molestation ever a factor in his profile?"
Pedophiles rarely kill outside of their target set. As Tom pointed out, serial killers like Bundy sometimes indulge in situational pedophilia, but it's very unusual for the reverse -- ie, a pedophile indulging in situational serial homicide of non-child victims in adult milieus -- to occur. This isn't to say that it couldn't happen, because it probably has, but there isn't anything in the Z case to suggest it (except for the "little kiddies" reference, which is a reach).
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wc01.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:43 pm:|
Jake, it is very biased of you to not recognize the fact that Zodiac referred to children several times, either directly or with his bomb threats. Zodiac's manifesto was the Stine letter, and that focused on children.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (80.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:50 pm:|
I'm more inclined to think he threatened children because he knew he could get a
bigger rise out of the public that way.
I've never heard of a pedophile mass-murderer expressing a hatred for children, or a particular anger against children. Pedophiles tend to be sexually immature individuals who choose to have sex with children because they're incapable of adult relationships. Case studies suggest that pedophiles who kill their victims do so in order to evade detection. Rarely one will kill his victims as part of a sadistic ritual in which the killing forms part of the entire sexual scenario. But I've never heard of a mass murderer targeting children as a means of avenging himself against children as a class.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th034.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 04:27 pm:|
"it is very biased of you to not recognize the fact that Zodiac referred to children several times, either directly or with his bomb threats. Zodiac's manifesto was the Stine letter, and that focused on children."
Tom, the difference between sexual attraction to children and the use of terms like "kiddies" to instill fear in society at large are quite different. You might as well say that Sirhan Sirhan and Ariel Sharon are kindred spirits because they both wrote about Israel. Moreover, the Stine letter was an opportunity to humiliate SFPD, and its bus bomb threat seems little more than a "that'll-get-'em" afterthought that caught on in later letters.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tq081.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:22 pm:|
In the book "The cases that haunt us", Douglas
seems to insinuate that "Starr" is a logical Z choice, but remember Douglas is the profiler that is on the Ramsey's side, in disagreement with his fellow profiler collegues.
At any rate, I found the report disturbing -- isn't it lovely the type of individuals we hire to teach and supervise our children??
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tq081.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:26 pm:|
p.s. to Scott:
Read Kelleher's profile of Z on Jake's site.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 03:35 pm:|
I looked atthe probation report again and have identified one notation that may confirm that ALA was actually convicted of the charge against him; at the top of p 4, there is a notation "1/23/75 PG". That was apparently his trial date, and the PG was certainly not the MPPA rating of the procedings, more likely an abbreviation for Plea:Guilty. This suggests a plea bargain, which could in turn include any number of explanations for why he was not picked up on a weapons charge in the '91 VPD search. Another possibility is that VPD simply didn't run his record when they executed the search. Who knows?
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (spider-ti044.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 06:10 pm:|
Even if Allen did plea with Sonoma County in 1975, why and how would that have anything to do with a 1991 search in Solano County??? And why on Earth are you questioning if Allen was convicted of the child molesting charge???
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (cbrg1404.capecod.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 07:09 am:|
Answers to both questions are closely related. VPD has taken a lot of criticism on
this board for not busting ALA on a weapons charge after the 91 search, on the basis that
he was a convicted felon. One of the points I was trying to make was your first one:
precisely that a 91 search in Solano would not have resulted in the weapons bust unless
they ran ALA's sheet, which they would not have done unless they had busted him first on
the what they were looking for.
Whether he was convicted or just processed civilly as a MDSO provides another explanation for VPD's failure to bust him on a weapons violation. No conviction, no parole violation. Now, one may think they could have used the weapons, legal or not, to squeeze him on the Zodiac charges. I think it is a point in their favor, not against them, that they didn't use such tactics. VPD may have messed up on other things, but failure to bust ALA on the basis of the 91 search is not one of them.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (spider-mtc-td052.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 11:48 am:|
"a 91 search in Solano would not have resulted in the weapons bust unless they ran ALA's sheet, which they would not have done unless they had busted him first on the what they were looking for."
So, you actually believe that in 1991 VPD didn't know Allen had been convicted of being a child molester? Are you on crack?
"No conviction, no parole violation."
Peter, concentrate hard: ALLEN PLEAD GUILTY TO THE CHARGES. HE WAS A FELON. END OF STORY.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wf033.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 12:33 pm:|
The fact remains that VPD seized all of Allen's weapons during the '91 search warrant.
Why would VPD have done that if they didn't know that ALA was a felon? There is no way
that ALA could have purchased weapons following his release unless:
1. He lied on his background check, or
2. He purchased them from a private seller who wouldn't have had to run a background check, or
3. ALA stole the weapons.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (188.8.131.52) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 01:10 pm:|
Tom: Second comment first. Yes, I know he pled guilty. As I noted above, I finally
found it in the PO report. My comment was only in answer to your question as to why I
raised it. It was my approach, not my conclusion.
First comment. Make up your mind. Which is it? the 91 search in Sonoma had no connection with The 74 bust in Solano, or VPD of course knew in 91 of the 75 conviction? Actually, they could have been aware of the conviction and looked the other way as long as they didn't bust him on any other charge. If they had busted him, they would have to run his sheet, and once they run his record, the conviction would have popped up and they would have had no excuse for looking the other way. Either way, if they knew of the 75 conviction, and weapons were a violation, then we are back to the question of why VPD didn't at least squeeze him with the weapons charge? Maybe it wasn't a violation ten years after his probation was up.
C'mon, Tom, this story never ends: besides, there's not all that much happening in other topics on the board at the moment . . .
Scott: The weapons could be seized as possible Z evidence under the terms of the warrant, even if they were perfectly legal. Probable cause to seize under the warrant is entirely separate from probable cause to charge with a crime. Good questions how he got them in the first place, though. Pre-conviction?
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wf033.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 01:24 pm:|
Peter: There are no statute of limitations regarding the purchase of firearms. If you
are a convicted felon, you can't EVER legally obtain a firearm. Period. However, I suppose
it is possible that he obtained the weapons prior to his conviction.
|By Classic (Classic) (spider-tm051.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 05:10 pm:|
Concerning Allen's possesion of weapons...G.Gordon Liddy of Watergate fame is a convicted felon and cannot own weapons although he is an avid gun collector and enthusiast. When asked about this dilema,he replied "Mrs. Liddy has a very nice collection of weapons". Just because Allen possesed them doesn't mean that he owned them. If all they could get him on was this tenuous weapons charge it is doubtful they would shoot their bolt on something like that. Classic
|By Esau (Esau) (proxy2-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 07:54 pm:|
Let me get this straight.... Allen wasn't arrested for having pipe bombs, blasting caps, and bomb making equipment because they didn't know he was a convicted felon? Maybe VPD thought he was building a high school science project. He should have been put away whether he had a record or not.
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust174.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 10:36 pm:|
I find it unfathomable Allen wasn't busted on weapons charges.Maybe he had something on someone high up in VPD.I've always been suspicious about the contents of the videotape labled 'Z' seized from Allens residence. Why won't VPD disclose what's on there?
|By Spencer (Spencer) (ac949766.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 12:22 am:|
So, you actually believe that in 1991 VPD didn't know Allen had been convicted of being a child molester? Are you on crack?
Peter H. replied:
If they had busted him, they would have to run his sheet, and once they run his record, the conviction would have popped up and they would have had no excuse for looking the other way.
Tom has indicated that it would have been beyond comprehension for the VPD to have obtained a search warrant of ALA's house without having done at least a preliminary background check on him, which would have certainly turned up the 75 conviction. The reality is that they wouldn't have sought a search warrant if they hadn't been convinced that it was reasonable to consider ALA a viable suspect. In order to consider him worthy of a search warrant, there had to have been hundreds of hours of investigative work conducted (and I wouldn't be surprised if such work involved contacting the molestation victim to conduct at least an informal interview).
Long story short: VPD KNEW more about ALA than his momma did (before she went teats-up), and they certainly KNEW of the molestation conviction.
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust206.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 12:55 pm:|
Thanks for the Calaveras article Tom.Sure got those TK'ers, BD'ers & Kane'rs a little quiet.For anyone needing an example of a child molester turned serial killer, check out the Crime Library.com article on Andrei Chikatilo, the Russian monster, who was also a school teacher & fired for molesting students.He ended up with over 50 proven murders, making him one of the most prolific serial killers in history.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ti082.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 02:18 pm:|
Tony: Your point about Chikatilo is a very good one. Reminds me of ALA. What is your
opinion on Z? Did he stop killing following the Stine murder?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (166.philadelphia08rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 02:27 pm:|
Chikatilo was a classical-style serial killer in the manner of Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer, killing for stimulation in a very intimate, hands-on manner. Those who view Zodiac in this light do so at the risk of their professional reputation, supposing they have one to risk. See my two essays, "Was Theodore Kaczynski the Zodiac Killer?, Part 1," and "Mass Murder and Modus Operandi" at the Unabomber-Zodiac website.
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust30.tnt2.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 05:48 pm:|
Scott:The blitz style attacks in Vallejo & on Stine indicate a fairly easy
get-away shocker by someone who was more interested in taunting the police &
terrorrizing the public at large to satisfy his ego. Berryessa's a different story. That
attack's personal, ritualistic, & sexual without a doubt. The same for Riverside &
SB if Z is infact the perp there. If he got his rocks off this way too, then he kept
killing. I was in Jr. high in Santa Rosa thru the early 70's,had met & skated with the
2 girls who dissappeared from the Ice Arena there,and along with the kidnappings of other
young women in the area, talk of Zodiac was all over town. Not known to the general public
at the time was that the main suspect lived in our town. Yikes!!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc064.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 05:59 pm:|
Tony: more zynchronicity here. I dated a woman a few years back who went to school with Yvonne Weber and Maureen Sterling, #'s 24 and 25 in Graysmith's Z-victim list (Zodiac, pp. 252-253, 310).
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 07:14 pm:|
Chikatilo, was a molester yes,but he killed all of his victims. He didn't molest some children and then go on and start killing.He started out with that as part of his thing.Did you know that when he was suspected as the killer,his DNA was checked out, and he was released because it was not a match? Later they found out that his blood type and semen type were different!
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-188.8.131.52.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 08:03 pm:|
Douglas: I am not at all of the opinion that Zodiac was a serial killer in the
strictest sense of the definition. I believe that he was a deviant who experimented with
many forms of perversion, including pedophilia. I also believe that it is highly possible
that Zodiac stopped killing following the PH incident. I feel that Stine was either his
last victim, or one of his last victims. I've already read your two essays, they're very
Sandy: I don't think we'll have the same problem with the DNA in the Z case. But yes, that was a pretty peculiar part of the AC case.
|By Bruce (Bruce_D) (pm3-04-35.sle.du.teleport.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 09:37 pm:|
Like I've said all along,profiling is a good place to start-but not to rest one's
Science doesn't deal with facts, but with tenets which over time may be further reinforced or disproven or modified.
Profiling can't indicate who Z may be but may lead us in the right direction. What about all the Serial killers who have not yet been caught-in SC IENCE that is a variable that would have to be explored. Do the Serial Killers that are still free make up a different profile than the ones who were caught. Does a maniac fit differnt profiles. Does a person have to fit a certain profile .
If say Harry is a serial killer, he may fit the profile ,let's say to a degree of 67%, BUT YOU KNOW HARRY if he is not the perp will be 0% guilty and if he is the perp ,he is 100% guilty.
In summation, profiling is a good place to start,but I wonder how many serial killers are running around free because"THEY DID NOT FIT THE PROFILE."
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust139.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 09:47 pm:|
Sandy: They only tested Chikatilo's blood.At that time, the Soviet police were totally
inexperienced in serial killings. They thought of it as only a 'Western Phenomenom'.Had
they tested Chikalito's hair or semen, they would've found an AB match & saved many
Ed: My best friend at the time mentioned that 2 girls we met at the Ice Arena had been missing. We met so many girls there, I couldn't place them till I saw their pictures in the Press Democrat. I almost dropped. Needless to say,our parents gladly drove us to & fro' in those days.
|By Spencer (Spencer) (acb51f7c.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 08:55 pm:|
For the information of all, I was perusing the Z FBI file today, and I came across at
least one example of a molester being considered a Z suspect. It occurs in a list of
requested fingerprint checks made by the SFPD in December 1969 of the FBI Lab, listing a
suspect as having been reported "as a suspect on the basis of [redacted] being a
molester and sex deviate."
Below this request is another one regarding a suspect known to be a "sex deviate, student of astrology, and loner" who was born in Kansas. For all I know the term "sex deviate" could have been code for homosexual in the FBI of the late 1960's, so this suspect may or may not be an actual sex offender.
The document referenced is available by clicking the following link:
P.S. Could number one on the list (the molester) be the first official mention of Allen as a viable suspect?
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb6bd8c.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 09:56 pm:|
Spencer, Allen was first interviewed as a Zodiac suspect in October 1969. That report
has been posted at my site for three years.
SFPD wasn't aware of Allen until late July 1971. That report has been posted at my site for two years.
|By Spencer (Spencer) (acb694a2.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 12:13 am:|
Sorry about that Tom (and all). Duh, not only has that info been posted here for
several years, but Allen's name isn't redacted throughout the files.
It's interesting, however, to note that the police didn't have trouble accepting the suggestion that Z could have had a history of child molestation.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc13d60.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:07 pm:|
It was mentioned on the news today that Mohammed and Malvo apparently engaged in a homosexual relationship during their murder spree. That makes serial killer/spree killer/mass murderer (whatever you choose to call him) BS a pedophile. So, it's not inconsistent for Allen, a pedophile, to have been Z. (Most of the threads concerning BS and stepson are closed now, and this didn't really seem to fit anywhere else).
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:31 am:|
I'd a feeling such information would be forthcoming sooner or later. I mean, come on .
. . wasn't it sort of obvious? Thanks for the confirmation there, Ed.
Anyone remember Otis Toole and Henry Lucas?
These types obviously have an aberrant relationship with society in general; that this would also include aberrant sexual relationships seems more likely than unusual, in my opinion.
|By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:44 am:|
Hey Beavis, he said "Toole".
These two are, in my opinion, completely unique and will write a new chapter in profiling. Almost everything about them was different than what I and some of the experts in the media predicted. Keep in mind that the media were using people from CSI Crime as their experts.
Zodiac was also quite unique so I personally won't discount Allen as Z because he was a child molester.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:05 am:|
John Wayne Gacy and Dean Corll were pedophiles, as was Albert Fish. It's not all that unusual. Dahmer had a kid at one point, as I recall.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:36 pm:|
Those men,if it be lawful to grant them that appellation,molested their victims and then killed them-Z did not-that's a very long bridge to cross!