Allen: "Titwillow..." Part Two Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: Allen: "Titwillow..." Part Two

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 05:18 pm:

The old thread was getting a bit long.

With Tom's generous assistance, I've corrected a letter to the Ledger-Dispatch and posted it at my site. It's under "The Latest." Come and get me, fellas.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 05:24 pm:

They will not get past the first polysyllable. Good try, nonetheless.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 08:41 pm:

In his open letter to Matthew Hedger, Jake wrote:
"Allen was able to find another teaching job after the scandal, which indicates that he was, in fact, well under control."

Jake, you can't be quoting Hedger, because he never wrote that Allen had found another teaching job after leaving Valley Springs. Therefore, you are either mistaken or biased.

Isn't your letter critical of Hedger for those very things?

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:58 pm:

Jake, you can't be quoting Hedger, because he never wrote that Allen had found another teaching job after leaving Valley Springs. Therefore, you are either mistaken or biased.

Here's the relevant quote from Hedger's article:

In 1968, Allen was accused of molesting Gwen and he was forced to leave his teaching position in March, well before the end of the school year. No charges were ever filed against him though, and he was actually able to find employment at another school after the Valley Springs scandal.

All things considered, Tom, whether he is working as a teacher or a janitor, he still was able to gain employment at a school, did he not?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 10:42 pm:

You missed the point again, Bruce.

It's Tool Time.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:50 am:

Jake: I have to admit that the letter was pretty compelling; the article clearly didn't demonstrate "balanced reporting," and was biased toward ALA. Though I still believe that ALA will ultimately turn out to have been Z, I have no problem with denouncing this type of journalism. Unfortunately, one could literally spend the rest of their lives writing letters like yours to practically every newspaper, radio station, and television station in the country. Being a firearms advocate, I've contacted numerous news agencies in the past because of their insistence on using the phrase "automatic weapon" when referring to a weapon that clearly was not. Simple distinctions that are casually overlooked can easily persuade the public into thinking things that simply aren't true. It's a sad commentary, but true nonetheless.


By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) ( on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:07 pm:

It's "Fool" time...take it away, Tommy Boy! You Rock!

Hey, this ad hominem stuff is fun; that way you never actually have to answer the tough questions, you can just post a flippant character attack and claim victory.

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 03:27 pm:

Howard, enough about Dave Peterson and my attitude and Elaine Davis: what makes you think Pam Tan was a Zodiac victim? Is there something I'm missing?


By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 03:38 pm:

Scott wrote:
"Show me "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that we have a set of Z's prints, and that those prints were compared to ALA's and didn't match."

Yeah, Bruce, can you prove that The Flash didn't come upon the cab in the three minutes between the time Stine was murdered and the first ROs arrived at the scene, and that he didn't reach into the cab, touch Stine, then touch the car door without being noticed by the three witnesses, and that he didn't escape notice by a wave of cops looking for additional witnesses as he left the scene?

SFPD has faith in certain (though admittedly not all) of their print evidence. "Fact," as Tom would say. Now, whether one has faith in SFPD is up to, uh, oneself.


By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 04:32 pm:

Jake: Although your "Flash" scenario would make a good after school cartoon, replete with Flash donning the hood from LB, you still haven't shown me "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that SFPD has a confirmed pair of Z's prints. With regard to "SFPD has faith in certain . . . of their print evidence," all I'm asking is, ARE the bloody prints on Stine's cab among the prints that they have "faith in"? I know this sounds like a rhetorical question, but it is not. I have honestly not been able to find any documentation that clearly states that the bloody prints were ever deemed viable evidence. Were they good enough to reliably compare them to another set of prints? If so, were they ever compared to any of the emergency personnel present at the scene that night? If not, why? Were the prints observed by the first person on the scene that night, or by another investigator somewhere down the line? Do we know that the scene wasn't contaminated?

I'm not trying to sound like Barry Sheck(sp?) here, I'm just simply trying to remain balanced and objective in my analysis. Of course, you are under no obligation to answer me, Jake. I know where you stand on that issue.

For what it's worth,


By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:36 pm:

Jake: "Enough about Dave Peterson"? He was with the case longer than you or anyone else for that matter-he IS AN AUTHORITY and his findings have merit and to make a flippant statement about a man that devoted his life to the case and lost it(according to his doctor) because of the many years of stress and intense research only shows me why your attitude is singled out and by not just me ,but a lot of others too!

The man was totally brilliant and this would come out when he trusted you . I have a ton of his letters and I was constantly amazed by the depth and scope of his research even in his declining years. Don't pass him off like that- it only shows that infamous East Coast arrogance!

I have given some of my reasons for her selection as a POSSIBLE victim by post-see Archives and on my site and book.If you don't care to view don't spew.You are a very smart fellow and have a fabulous Zodiac site, so why dim that with an attitude?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:43 pm:

RPD apparently had a great deal of faith in their "local boy."

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

Douglas: There at least 10 or more points that lead us away from the local boy, but they chose not to look at them. I know that he is mentioned in a negative way in Cheri's diary-plus other evidence they had uncovered- so I can see how they saw this as an indication he was the perp.

It was like acid and alkaline -the one cancelled out the other in regards to solid evidence.

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:34 pm:

Howard, I have asked you a very simple question half a dozen times and you still haven't answered it. A keyword search on "Pat Tan" brings up over 21 pages of results that I am not willing to sift through unless someone can give me the slightest clue why a woman whose murder was out of Z's bailywick and unlike any he had comitted and was not followed by any letter of any kind and is not named as a related crime in any police report should be considered a Zodiac victim.

"Dave Peterson thinks so" just isn't a good enough answer, and I'm beginning to think it's all you've got.


By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

Scott, I hope that when the time is right, SFPD will be more forthcoming about the evidence that they have. When that time arrives, I am quite sure that said evidence will go beyond reasonable doubt to the point of a scientific certainty. More than that, I really can't say, and I understand (and commend) your skepticism in advance.


By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 12:57 am:

Jake: A lot of my questions and comments go unanswered also. You asked me to show why I believe the Gaul letter displayed similar parallels to the Confession letter. I did in spades.

I am a very slow typist and it takes me a long time to give the info-info that you will simply contradict and then challenge me on something else.

Then I did an extensive post on the murders, etc. Did you reply? I may have missed your reply.

Read-if you would- those 21 pages -that's why we have an archive ,so we don't have to go over everything again and again for someone who won't accept it anyway;that just wants to argue and always takes the opposite view.

I don't have to tell you what I have unless I want to. I have given and given info that took me years to acquire- so don't go there.The pushy East Coast attitude doesn't work here.

I have sent a ton of documents to posters at no charge -documents it took a lot of effort to obtain, but I want to help in anyway I can to give them the info they want and need .I realize they were not in a position to get the material.

As to your last remark about me relying on Peterson for proof just shows me you don't read -you seek some negative point and hurl that back.Everyone knows this to be fact!

You know very well that Zodiac was totally bizarre. Witness LB!You want a tight package and you won't always get it.

I stand by my past posts as giving info I have-actually my posts by and large have too much info as I want to bring out all I've studied on a particular problem or situation concerning Zodiac.

I hope we all are sober when we post and answer questions -it's the professional thing to do!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 01:04 am:

Here's an idea:

Me and Howard
Jake and MONSON

Special referee: Sylvie

A good old fashioned "loser leaves the Internet" match.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 02:47 am:

I'd love to help promote that! We'd have hot dogs and root beer and host a 1/4 mile racing competition following the bout! PeterH could clock the 1/4 mile run! WARNING: I've got a '66 Chevelle than can tear up 1/4 of a mile in less than 13 seconds with standard 75R14's. We could end the evening with a Z look-alike contest. I'd win except for my height!

Excited with anticipation,

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 07:58 am:

"Me and Howard
Jake and MONSON"

That's a tag team match I'd like to see.

"We'd have hot dogs and root beer"

Sounds alot better than crow and/or shorts Scott!

I'm exited too!... "Oh,.. Titwillow, Willow, titwillow, titwillow."

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

Here's an idea:

Me and Howard
Jake and MONSON

Special referee: Sylvie

A good old fashioned "loser leaves the Internet" match.

Sounds good to me, but I get Voigt, Jake! And instead of the 1/4 mi. drag race after the Ultimate Fighting Champtionship bout, I propose a spelling contest! ;-)

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 11:18 pm:

Bruce: "Champtionship"?
I suppose that was intentional, though.

Spelling errors from board members don't especially bother me, unless they are to the point of absurdity, such as with that moron Scott White from a few months ago.

Back to
Allen: "Titwillow..." Part Two

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 11:56 pm:

For once we agree, Tom. The occasional error is understandable, especially in a medium such as an internet forum, but excessive spelling and grammatical mistakes are tedious; especially over an extended period.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:29 am:

That depends on weather their intentional or you're spelling just isn't to good.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:41 am:

Wrestle Zania comes to the site!I don't care if I lose- I will just sell Steak Trough Grease Drippers outside the ring!

Gorgeous George Foreman step aside.That will leave a Threeman!

Can you imagine Tom in a Oregon made red/black checked wool shirt,Lees jeans and lumber jake boots and axe; Bruce in a fur lined (from Colorado bear) Brooks Brothers business suit;Jake in overalls and yellowed white shirt and high toppers from Palmyra N.Y.; and Howard with blue blocker shades, Hawaiian shirt and white pants from LA? Oh,and Sylvie yelling at Tom to lick her boots!

P.S. I do agree we shold yuse the spel checker!

By Esau (Esau) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 06:07 am:

To expand on Howard's idea I think that the format should be a Celebrity Death Match complete with Judge Mills Lane as the referee. The thought of some of these guys in claymation scares the heck out of me.

Douglas, ewe krack me up.