Allen's state of mind and behavior
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: Allen's state of mind and behavior
|By Classic (Classic) (spider-tk042.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:46 pm:|
Ther are a couple points is different threads I would like to address here.
As far as Allen being questioned and going on to commit PH, something strikes me as odd. Allen caved so easily when confronted by the principal about his improper conduct with students. Why would he have a backbone when being confronted about one crime and not another? Lynch might have gone easy on him, but Toschi and Armtrong most certainly did not.
And so what if Lynch's interview was soft. Allen couldn't have possibly known his true intentions. Was Lynch being nice to get more info? Was he trying to get (Allen) to slip up? We know now that this wasn't the case, but Allen didn't. Cops play nice all the time just to get their man.
Now Allen must be thinking "How did they get my name?" Hmm. that's right! I told my entire plan to Cheney!
If Allen shot Stine, could he really have been as cool as the underside of a pillow when confronted by Foulkes and Zelms? z did not know that they weren't after him, but he would have to assumed so. So what does z do? Not the normal fight or flight. He stops and exchanges words with them. Allen is bawling in the hallway in front of the principal, but he is going to talk to two cops after shooting someone in the head.
The more I look at Allen, the less I like him as z. Classic
|By Chris Bohn (Chris) (adsl-65-65-246-81.dsl.elpstx.swbell.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:49 am:|
I agree on your point about Cheney, but at the time he told him I dont believe he felt
the grand scope of what he would later become.
These crimes were of totally different natures.
I believe Allen could control himself where murder was involved but could not where children were. He had a "soft spot" and I believe this caused great mental distress for him. Being branded a child molester by everyone probably caused him a great embarrasment where as he was made famous by the Z crimes. He might have had a totally different mind set considering one a crime and one a GAME.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-tb074.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:44 am:|
Classic wrote, "Why would he have a backbone when being confronted about one crime
and not another?"
Because he got busted for one but not the other?
"Lynch might have gone easy on him, but Toschi and Armtrong most certainly did not."
Right, and Toschi and Armstrong were the reasons that Allen had the suspect status that he did.
"Allen couldn't have possibly known his true intentions. Was Lynch being nice to get more info? Was he trying to get (Allen) to slip up? We know now that this wasn't the case, but Allen didn't."
What better way to find out VPD's true intentions that to commit a hastily put together crime with a different MO in an entirely different city? Perhaps the initial interview is what prompted him to quit killing, but not before one more murder where he could obtain some "items" so as to continue to authenticate himself in the future without the hassle of having to murder people.
"Allen is bawling in the hallway in front of the principal, but he is going to talk to two cops after shooting someone in the head."
At the moment, I have no way of articulating an answer that is any more lucid than that described by Chris Bohn in the above post.
Excellent post Chris!
"The more I look at Allen, the less I like him as z."
The more I look at him the more I like him as the Z. Honest to God; I'm not picking a bone here. I like Allen more almost daily and I haven't even read more than 150 or so pages of Zodiac Unmasked.
|By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-65-054-149.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:49 am:|
When Allen committed molestation crimes, the victims were also witnesses. Allen was had and he knew it. At PH, the cops ask Z if he'd seen anything suspicious in the area(instead of jumping out of they're car in a mode of apprehension, in which they'd been most certainly gunned down) giving him the impression he wasn't even suspected. There's also a school of thought that the 2 cops only glimpsed him briefly as he pretended to enter the foryer of a residence, never speaking to them at all. As we all know, they were looking for a BMA.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta024.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:53 am:|
I wrote, "I like Allen more almost daily and I haven't even read more than 150 or
so pages of Zodiac Unmasked."
Just to be clear, what I mean by that statement is that I'm theorizing about Allen as Z without the aid of Graysmith's book, not the reverse. Which is not to say that I don't like the book; rather, I haven't read enough to make that judgment.
Tony, eloquently stated and excellent observations!
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta044.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:40 am:|
Why is it that anytime something poignant about Allen is uttered everybody seems to run
to the hills?
Suddenly, I'm in the mood for some Iron Maiden.
|By Classic (Classic) (spider-mtc-tj071.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:41 am:|
Chris wrote, "Being branded a child molester by everyone probably caused him a
great embarrasment where as he was made famous by the z crimes."
If so why would he so freely admit to being a molester and not z? Admitting he was z would bolster his stature. He had the will to deny he was z, which would have brought him fame and a sense of power, but he couldn't help but to admit to being a molester which would only bring disgust and loathing on him?
Scott, I wish I knew how to use the quote feature so I wouldn't have to retype evrything. Anyway, about Allen's backbone, you replied, "Because he got busted for one and not the other?" Allen didn't get busted when the principal accused him, that was not the crime he went to jail for. He got "busted" by the principal in the sense that the principal was accusing him of something. Exactly as Toschi and Armstrong did. Maybe not in so may words,but T& A's intentions were perfectly clear to Allen.
Commiting a crime in different location with a different MO in an attempt to find Vpd's intentions? The only he would have found out is being arrested if he was being watched. If your girlfriend accuse you of having an affair do you stay out all night and abscences without explanations to throw her off the trail? No, you lay low and walk the straight and narrow until it blows over.
Tony, yes Allen's vitims were witnesses, but z have several witnesses too. At the time he couldn't have known how crummy their id's were.
When the cops roll up on z he didn't know they were looking for a BMA. As the car slowed down next to z, anyone these than the coolest customer would have the fight or flight reflex. If the cops were after z why would he wait until they got out of the car and stared walking toward him with handcuffs before z made his move? z would not have given that advantage away. Could Allen have maintained his composure at that moment when the car started to slow? IMHO I don't think so.
As far as whether the cops actually spoke to z. There is no doubt in my mind that they did. All of the descriptions of the events point to that conclusion. I haven't cornered the market on the truth or wisdom, everything seems to point that way. Why wouldn't the cops have stopped and asked a potential witness if he saw anything? Classic
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc25-66.rasserver.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:12 am:|
Although I have always thought Allen was a fascinating suspect-I do have some
that he really is the Zodiac. There are just so
many things about him that don't seem to gel with
him being the killer-but then on the other hand-
there are things that really makes one wonder...
Regarding his breakdown when the principal confronted him, and then his seemingly cool demeanor when stopped by police: Perhaps he
actually had respect for the principal. Afterall,
he did choose teaching as his profession. He
spent alot of time and effort to achieve his
degree. Maybe he actually felt humilated and shameful when confronted by the principal. He must have realized-at the moment-that everything
he had worked for was over. He would no longer
have a job, his career in the teaching field would
be over. To realize-at that age-everything one has
worked for-was now down the tubes-must have been
overwhelming. Not to mention, the fear of being
However,it appears he had nothing but contempt for
the police. Even if he was not the killer, it is
clear he was not concerned in the least what they
thought about him. I think Chris made a very valid
point in his previous post. If he really thought
the killings were just a game, it is likely that
he could have kept his composure--even in a highly
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:23 am:|
Judy, I also believe Allen had probably used the "remorseful routine" with great success for years during his career as a pedophile.
|By Chris Bohn (Chris) (adsl-216-63-174-192.dsl.elpstx.swbell.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:23 am:|
I did read the Case Against Arthur Leigh Allen and I wasnt impressed except that it
did help to clarify Allen killing "chickens" at Berryessa.
How could admitting he was Z bring Allen any power? In fact truely admitting it would have made him totally powerless.
If you ask me he did admit it in very abstract and peculiar ways. He all but admitted to it. He provided no solid alibies and knew more than he let on about the killings.
Now, perhaps he really did feel that molesting children was a great personal problem or shortcoming. If Z were Allen, I can see him parked in the darkness at LHR drinking and thinking about how bad his life was. Seeing the "happy " couple drive up and start necking could have set him off into a rage.
I remind you that it is not uncommon for serial killers to drink to excess(Dahmer) and be active in society and cold on the interior(Gacy).
It is my honest opinion that Allen was the Zodiac and that he virtually stumbled through most of the crimes although he showed preparedness, you can't say that whoever the Zodiac was, he planned every little thing like some maniac in a movie like Seven. It just couldnt have happened that way.
|By Classic (Classic) (spider-mtc-tb083.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:05 am:|
Chris, When I say admitting to be z would bring Allen power, I mean it in the sense of fear and terror that would bring. People would be afraid of him. That kind of power. Admiting to to being a child molester would do the opposite. Classic
|By Chris Bohn (Chris) (adsl-65-65-247-87.dsl.elpstx.swbell.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 01:09 am:|
Classic, to this day, especially without a confession people still fear Z.
The fact that he wasn't caught gives him more power in anonimity.
|By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-65-054-052.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 11:14 pm:|
And Allen ALWAYS carried weapons in his vehicles. How many school teachers do you know that did that?
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-40-44.bos.east.verizon.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, July 01, 2002 - 10:15 am:|
Beer bottles, maybe. But weapons? Always?
|By Clark Kent (Clark) (test2.pacinfo.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, July 01, 2002 - 01:06 pm:|
That's why he was fired from Santa Rosa Elementary in 1962. I believe they were in public view in his car at his Travis Elementary job as well, but I'll have to check my notes. Then there were the knives he used to "kill chickens" in 1969. Semantically speaking, though, I'm sure he didn't always have weapons in his car.