Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Arthur Leigh Allen: Comparing Allen to the other suspects

If we were to compare Allen against the other suspects, only using "evidence" that could not be manufactured to point the finger at himself, how would he stack up? To my knowledge, none of the other suspects has done things to cast suspicion on himself.

If we eliminate the zodiac watch etc. they all are in the same ballpark so to speak, IMO. Classic

I'm not aware of another suspect who ever lived in Vallejo, or even visited there frequently. (Contrary to rumor, Lawrence Kane has never been placed in Vallejo.)

I'm also not aware of another suspect who was known to visit Lake Berryessa.

That's the one point that keeps coming back to me. If the Zodiac had struck just once in Vallejo I might be inclined to believe he was just cruising the general area looking for opportunities. The fact that he struck a second time in this otherwise sleepy little town leads me to believe the killer had some sort of discernable connection.

Believe me, the Vallejo connection is huge.

In my opinion, the person who committed Lake Herman Road had to have been there prior to the night of the murders, there's simply no other explanation that I can see. Honestly, Zodiac must have trolled the LHR location until the right opportunity presented itself; the road is too convoluted, in my opinion, to have been successfully committed without prior knowledge.

Of all the suspects, Arthur Leigh Allen is the only suspect that is known, beyond a reasonable doubt, to have been familiar with Lake Herman Road.

Additionally, if you reference a map of the area, it's plain to see that ALA's house at 32 Fresno was within a matter of minutes in drive time from both LHR and Blue Rock Springs.

Sure, these facts might be coincidental.

Reading Nancy Slover's report of the call she received following the BRS shootings, the caller said, "If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park . . ." Further indication of Z's familiarity with the Vallejo area.

The Napa PD dispatcher who received the call following the Berryessa attack was directed to the location, "two miles north of park headquarters." Another suggestion of familiarity with an area where an attack occurred.

Yet, in his letter following the Stine killing, Z mistakenly gave the wrong intersection where the incident took place, which tells me that he was not as familiar with that location. It seems to me that if Z was one of the suspects that was said to be either a nearby resident, at the time or prior to October 1969, or a frequent visitor to the neighborhood, he would not have screwed up the name of the street that crossed Washington where Stine was shot.

Maybe country boy Z got a little screwed up in SF.

As far as comparing circumstantial evidence, I think Kaczynski has everyone beat...including Allen. The problem we find with Kaczynski is that there is no definitive proof of his exact whereabouts at any time during the Zodiac crimes or correspondences. We, of course, do know that he was a Professor at Berkley until his resignation became effective in June of 1969, so he was definitely residing in the area during the Jensen/Farraday murders. Ted did have a vehicle during that period of time (I'm not sure what kind); however, given the known fact that Ted was very anti-social and did not become in many group activities, he would have plenty of time to himself to site-see or visit/travel to neighborhood areas, probably seeking peaceful, secluded areas (which we know TK enjoyed). It wouldn't surprise me (whether Ted is Z or not), that he took many lone trips on his own, whether looking for such sites to enjoy or to spy on couples he felt envy, hate and/or jealousy towards.

Linda, that Kaczynski liked to sightsee is cool and all, but the fact remains that Allen is the only suspect that is known, beyond a doubt, to have been familiar with Vallejo. What evidence is there that places TK there? There is none that I know of.

Scott, I'll try to answer your question in anticipation of Linda's reply. There is no particular piece of evidence to show that Kaczynski was familiar with Vallejo, just as there is no particular evidence to show that he was familiar with Sacramento, San Francisco or Salt Lake City. Yet he was very familiar with San Francisco, Sacramento and Salt Lake City.

Scott... It is only speculation that the Zodiac knew or was extremely familiar with the sites he chose. That Allen was quite familiar with the surroundings can more than likely not be denied and is a "plus" in the "Allen as the Z" column; however, NONE of the suspects, including Allen, has been able to be positively placed at ANY of the scenes at the time/s of the crimes. That Kaczynski may not have been KNOWN to have been familiar with Vallejo cannot discount the other extremely incriminating and numerous similarities between Zodiac and Kaczynski... And these similarities are not light and off-the-cuff similarities... Further, Allen nor any other suspect share any of these specific and documented traits.

The chances of two known killers sharing a NEED to write to the media, the police, and their victims, about their crimes; their known use of code; their known use of similar writing styles, punctuation and phrasing; their knowledge, mention and/or use of bombs; their desire to taunt law enforcement, etc. have to be slim to none. I can't help but still believe that there is an extremely high probability that the Zodiac and TK are one in the same.

I know there are a lot of Allen supporters still out there and I can appreciate the continued efforts to positively prove he's the Z. I hope you can understand why I feel as strongly in support of TK being Z. Unless DNA from known Zodiac correspondences can prove that one of the other suspects positively matches, or unless there is positive proof that one of the suspects can be placed exactly at one of the crime scenes, I think there will always be speculation as to who the Z really was.

Linda!

Doug, if there is no evidence to show that TK was familiar with the cities you mentioned, then how do you know he was? Seriously.

Linda wrote, "It is only speculation that the Zodiac knew or was extremely familiar with the sites he chose."

I've already stated my opinion on this in exhaustive detail. Does anybody else who's been to Lake Herman Road or Lake Berryessa want to help me out here? Ed?

And yes, Linda, I can certainly appreciate the amount of similarities between TK and Zodiac. But to say that TK has 'more' or 'better' circumstantial evidence pointing to him than Allen does is not only misleading but, in my opinion, incorrect, as well.

Quite the contrary, Linda, after having lived in American Canyon for 10½ years, just 8 miles from LHR, 4 from BRS and half a mile north of Vallejo, and after having studied this case for 10 years and taken into account various experts' opinions about serial killers (ie, they tend to kill in areas they are comfortable/familiar with, etc), leads me to conclude that Z was not only very familiar with Vallejo and the surrounding areas, but that he had lived there for perhaps many years. If he was not a native, then he moved there while young.

So, as far as I'm concerned, it is NOT "... only speculation that the Zodiac knew or was extremely familiar with the sites he chose." If you lived here for a number of years and have a different opinion, that's fine, let's hear it. If you don't live here, then perhaps you should take into account the opinions of those of us who do know what we're talking about.

Considering that Allen lived in Vallejo at the time in question, and that the first two crime scenes are but a short drive from 32 Fresno Street (even SF and LB are not all that far away; it is easy to drive to each location, commit a crime, and drive back in but a few short hours), I think we can be fairly certain that while he cannot positively be placed at each crime scene (indeed, none of the suspects can, or the case would have been solved years ago), there's a better-than-average chance that he could have been there. That does not go for TK, MHOH, Hunter, Marshall, Peter O, Citizen Q, Kane, etc, etc. The thing about Vallejo is that there is no reason for anyone to go there unless you live there, except perhaps for the horse racing. In the Bay Area, you don't go to Vallejo, you go to the City, and that holds true even today, for the most part. None of the other suspects had a reason to go there, and why would Z choose Vallejo to commit three murders rather than a number of other locations, unless he lived there? It just doesn't make sense from the standpoint of someone (such as myself) who lived there for a good portion of his life.

Now, while I may favor Allen, I certainly am not 100% convinced that he's Z. But then, I'm also not 100% convinced any other suspect is Z either; however, he does have the geographical/familiarity aspect strongly in his favor, which none of the other major suspects do. And even though Z and TK share a lot of similarities, just remember that similarity does not prove identity. That is for the courts to decide, if they choose to do so.

And if there's anyone else from the Vallejo area who would like to agree/disagree, let's hear from you. I'd like someone else's take on this.

Scott, we know he was familiar with those areas because he moved about in them, wrote on the walls of particular buildings in one of them and hand-placed bombs in two of them. We don't have any specific evidence showing us how he arrived at his familiarity with the areas, but we know from the details of his crimes that he was comfortable in those particular venues. Certainly he wasn't as adept at finding his way around as a lifelong native would have been, but he was familiar enough to have been able to hand-place a bomb at a particular computer store, or write graffiti on the walls of a particular college campus, all as a pedestrian.

I maintain that it didn't require an intimate knowledge of Vallejo to have committed a crime within an area on its outskirts. Linguistically, too, I believe a Vallejo native wouldn't have referred to LHR and BRS as "Lake Herman" and "near the golf course in Vallejo," nor would he have used the distinctions "Vallejo cop" and "Vallejo papers."

Douglas, hello. I don't think a Vallejo native would use those phrases in common conversation with his buddies, but Zodiac was speaking over the phone to a stranger, and he wanted to make ABSOLUTELY sure his information was received accurately. I doubt the theoretical Zodiac would then have gone home to his (Vallejo native) wife, for instance, and said, "honey, I just murdered two teenagers out on Lake Herman Road, past the Blue Rock Springs Golf Course on Columbus Parkway." See what I mean?

I do agree with Ed about issues of simple proximity. Were I a serial killer or mass murderer, I would probably have no trouble buying a map, doing some reading up and exploring, and then carrying out a crime in my selected location. Apparently that's what Kaczynski was able to do, although, forgive me, I'm not that well read on him yet. But I think we're unusual in that. I think most people prefer to operate in very comfortable, familiar surroundings. Especially as far as high risk activities are concerned.

Moreover, although you COULD come here to Vallejo and commit a murder on the outskirts of town, you wouldn't have an easy time of it in the locations Z chose. I agree with Scott about Lake Herman Road; it's confusing and creepy. Yes, even with a map. I can vouch for that personally. And at night--narrow, dark as pitch, lots of blind curves which make turning around very nerve-wracking, and virtually NO alternate routes out, at least not any that a non-native would readily know.

On the question of what other suspects have connections to Vallejo--well, there's William Grant. He never seemed like much of a suspect to me--and I recall some comment from Tom about his "booming voice" and accent. But that report was interesting, and he is and was, allegedly, anyway, local. (By the way, what sort of accent? just curious.)

As for Vallejo and Kaczynski, the murders of Jensen and Farraday occurred on December 20, 1968 (the first confirmed murders of Z). Kaczynski, at that time, was a Professor at Berkley. More than likely, this would have been Christmas break time for the college. Kaczynski, a loner, could have had plenty of time to sitesee, explore, and travel around on his own, looking for secluded, out-of-the way areas to study, etc. (of course, only speculation). Remember, too, that as soon as the Christmas break was through, Kaczysnki, quite out of the blue (and without explanation), announced to his superiors that he would be resigning from his position.

I can't help but believe that the DNA extracted from the known Z correspondences will turn out to be Z's...and, if Ted was the Z, I do believe the SF Police Dept will find he can be included in the DNA they have found under the Z stamps (if they are even willing to check). TK's DNA was found on Unabomber correspondence items, so he wasn't thinking along those lines as late as the 70's or maybe 80's, so he certainly would more than likely not have been thinking along those lines, as early as the late 60's, early 70's.

If the DNA turns out to exclude Ted, my suspicions of him will be greatly reduced; however, as with the other suspects, unless a suspect is definitely identified, there will always be that continuous doubt.

FYI:
Now, Vallejo is home to "Marine World".
A major theme park attraction.

The argument that Zodiac must have been from Vallejo is one of the more mindless arguments I've read here. Ed, which experts are you drawing on? The Ted Bundy case is the staple serial murder case. Have you read up on his Colorado trips for example? Ted Bundy didn't do drive-bys either. Bundy would execute a plan (abduction sites, escape routes, necro-scenes etc.) in a day or two in areas foreign to him(routinely).

Julia, the examples I offered were part of his July, 1969 correspondences, not the phone calls.

Regarding Bundy, his goals required quite a bit more preparation than the Zodiac's LHR-BRS attacks, which were unsophisticated, drive-up-and-shoot crimes. One wouldn't need to drive all the way from Berkeley to find a suitable local for such an event.

Zander, have you ever been to the areas we are talking about? Let's hear it from The Master: why is it unlikely the Zodiac was familiar with Vallejo?

Zander: typical mindless comeback from someone who has not been to the attack sites, much less actually lived in the area for any length of time. I suggest you move here and live for a few years, read some other books on serial killers and/or talk to criminal profilers like Mike Kelleher, make several hundred trips to the attack sites, and then perhaps you'll be in a qualified position to make an observation about whether Z lived in the area or not. I've done all of the above, have you??? I daresay you haven't. So, don't even mention it anymore unless you know what you're talking about (which you quite clearly don't). I have no time for your arrogant conceit, and neither does anyone else.

Actually, I believe that the Zodiac became very familar with the area he trolled, his escape route, etc. I'm guessing everyone would agree to that. I don't see why that equals that Zodiac must have been a life-long resident of Vallejo. For example, in the GRK case, it became obvious that the killer was a long-time resident of King County, several reasons, one was that he appeared to have knowledge of the old roads going back to the seventies. In the still unsolved New Bedford serial case, it appeared that the killer was not familiar with the area due to his choice of dump sites and their locations, risky highway dump sites heading toward Boston. But you see that guy apparently become familiar enough with the area to pull off 11 murders, a lot chancier than Zodiacs.

I agree with you Zander. Obviously he's familiar with the area, but nothing says he must have been a lifelong resident. I've never lived near Vallejo, but looking at Lake Herman Road via satellite image I can't see that there's anything about it that would require an intimate degree of knowledge. It's not like a maze, or anything that complex. You start at the beginning and drive until you're at the end. My friend Mike Rusconi, who has lived in San Jose all his life, had no trouble finding the murder site at LHR or the parking lot at BRS. And of course, being from San Jose, he'd have had no reason at all, during the course of his 40+ years, ever to have visited Vallejo!

I had no trouble finding any of the sites either when I first started looking for them. But using a map to find a site is not the same as knowing a locality comfortably enough to choose a good spot to start a murder spree and knowing what traffic was like in that place at the time in question and feel fairly certain that one would stand a good chance of getting away with it. Add to that looking for a phone to call the cops in a strange town, if Z was a stranger to Vallejo. I don't know about anyone else, but if I were Z and not a local, I'd be scared as hell driving around for the next half hour after shooting two people looking for a phone booth knowing that the cops could nab me at any time. If I were a local, that would be a much different situation, since I'd know what side streets to take to stay out of sight. Z planned his crimes, but I don't think to the extent that everyone seems to be giving him credit for, so I doubt he just picked a random town, trolled it once or twice (or even a dozen times), and decided to kill some people.

In any case, my opinion was formed not because I am an "Allenista," but because I lived there for 10½ years and drove it's streets (and still do on occasion). And considering I've done everything I listed in my previous post, I'd like to think that my opinion carries slightly greater weight than all the armchair detectives out there who haven't done the legwork.

P.S. Thanks for your input, Julia. Any other locals out there with anything to add?

I think the positions of Ed and Doug are both well-argued and plausible, if not equally probable. I think though, in addition to Familiarity we should consider Opportunity. If Z just cruised up to Vallejo a couple of times and happened to find victims in just the place he was looking for them, he was incredibly lucky. More likely he spent a lot of time cruising for victims, and had many nights in which he came home disappointed. It's easier to see a local boy having the time and opportunity for this than somebody from Berkeley or San Francisco.
Another possibility is that Z had reason to believe he would find victims in just the places he looked for them, but that's completely another topic.

Who said he had to be a lifelong resident of Vallejo? I'm not even saying he had to be a resident. In the end, though, there will most certainly be some sort of discernable connection.

In the fall 1985 I roofed the apartment buildings on the corner of Columbus Parkway and Springs Rd. I was familiar with the Zodiac case at the time but I didn't know that any of the murders happened in Vallejo. We used to eat our lunch sometimes at Blue Rock Springs (back then it was a two lane road and a parking lot) and sometimes at the Lake Herman Rd murder site. Both were very isolated back then. I don't know why but I used to get an uneasy feeling at BRS. Anyway, the only times I've been to Vallejo was for work. I knew no one there. I was familiar enough with BRS and LHR and I felt comfortable being there.

I think there's a big difference Doug between what you describe as Kaczynski's familarity with
San francisco,Sacramento and Salt Lake City and the situation at Vallejo.
Kaczynski as the Unabomber hardly trolled for victims.To achieve what he did in those places all he had to do was look up a phone book or business address.He does not have to physcially remain at the scene to commit murder and even if he is spotted doing something ,that someone might deem to be suspicious ,he is long gone before those fears can be confirmed.
I also fail to see how M.Rusconi's ability to find infamous murder sites has any bearing on the situation.
The suggestion from those who live and have travelled these roads is that the are somewhat "out of the way".If that's the case today then they were probably more so in those days.I also assume that neither the roads or lighting were as good then.
It may help us to know if these particular roads connect Vallejo to other major towns or citys or if they are some kind of backroad connects.
I would also imagine the Zodiac (outsider or native)had to have know that these particular spots were actually "lovers Lane" areas.For the native this is easily explained.However for the troller/outsider we must not only put him in these areas but must do so at the right time.
I am guessing that you could pass any such "lay-by" probably anytime during the daylight hours and also on any week day night and not recognize them as areas where couples hang out.These were probably areas where school kids/young couples went on weekend nights only.
We can't say that an outsider was not responsible
but I would find it far more likely,that this guy was local or had stong connections there at some time.
On a seperate point,I wonder if we looked at all the know serial killers,how many would have "started out" in their own back yard.

Julia, thanks for the input. Perhaps it is ironic that those who've been to LHR and BRS and those who haven't fall into two different camps. Poor Occham must be rolling in his grave.

Esau, you wrote something curious: "I was familiar enough with BRS and LHR and I felt comfortable being there."

Are you saying you were familiar and comfortable enough to murder two people, in the case of BRS drive to a payphone afterward, and then disappear into the night without [ever] being caught? Where did you live when you were doing the roofing job in '85? Was it within a 10-minute drive from LHR and BRS?

This has probably been addressed at various times, but the LHR and BRS sites, while isolated and with little vehicular traffic late at night in 1968/69, conversely offered limited escape routes and some distance before Z would have been able to reach the safety of traffic and population so as not to be picked off by police responding to a call or seen by passing cars driving away from the scene. The term, sticking out like a sore thumb, comes to mind. And if his car had been spotted at or departing the scene, he wouldn't want to remain on the road any longer than absolutely necessary. Most robbers, for example, choose the location of their crimes with escape routes in mind, so they can quickly blend into vehicular and/or pedestrian traffic and reduce the time that they will be vulnerable to being seen and connected to the crime.

Although I've never been to the area and did not see the surrounding placement of homes, etc., as they existed in the late 60s, and therefore unable to speculate on how visible they are from the roads during daylight hours, it seems that the discharge of firearms late at night would entail the very real risk of a neighbor picking up the phone and calling the police. And the 9mm used at BRS would have been significantly louder than the .22 at LHR. If BRS had been committed around midnight the previous night, when celebratory fireworks would have been a predictably ubiquitous occurrence as the 4th emerged, the risk would have been greatly reduced. Even so, a neighbor reported hearing both fireworks and the distinctive sound of gunshots that night. The fact that the eve of the 4th fell on a Thursday, probably would have precluded many young revelers from partaking in fireworks that night, and instead they did so the following night, which accounts for the fireworks heard the night DF and MM were shot. Z might have factored this into his plans.

But I'm straying from my point. Although Z exposed himself after the Stine shooting, knowing full well that witnesses were a real possibility as he remained vulnerable to detection at the scene and as he walked away, this suggests to me that he had reached the end of his campaign and had a diminished regard for being seen and caught. Not so at LHR and BRS.

As Lapumo suggested above, knowledge of LHR and BRS being lover's-lane haunts is not something readily gained through casing the area in advance, further suggesting that a resident or frequent visitor to Vallejo would have been aware of this either through local common knowledge or personal experience. If Z was from outside the area, and thus had freedom of choice as to where the crimes would occur, but took the time to learn about teen parking places and the geographical makeup of this area, I can't see him risking capture having no reasonably safe route of escape with these particular sites. On the other hand, a local would have greater insight and level of comfort in his familiarity with the locations, and would want to be as close to home and safety as possible. No matter how you cut it, Z was damn lucky he didn't get caught as he made his getaway.

Scott, I was trying to convey that it is reasonable to assume that a stranger could see these places as comfort zones.

Scott, I was living in Sacramento. We as relatively normal humans tend to look at situations as normal people do. Serial killers have a different thought process. What wouldn't make sense to you and me might make sense to sociopath or scizophenic.
Bill, I-680 is about 2 minutes from the Lake Herman Road site and about 4 minutes from Blue Rock Springs. I-80 is about 2 minutes from Blue Rock Springs. There were no houses visible from the roads to the freeways in the 1980's. I'm not sure if there were visible houses in the 1960's and 1970's.

I doubt very seriously if Zodiac canvassed areas looking for the best places to take his victims. I'm more inclined to think that he drove around Vallejo in those out-of-the-way areas and saw something that really got his goat: young couples out necking and otherwise having a great time together; something that he wasn't in on. The first killing was probably more-or-less a knee-jerk response, given the kind of weapon he used. Taking his victims in those locations was a calculated risk; the areas were dark and isolated enough that he could play the percentages with sufficient confidence that he'd have time to make his getaway without being seen.

A native of Vallejo, however, would have to take a different possibility into account: that someone in the city or on the road would recognize him or his car and associate them with the events.

Douglas: hardly a knee-jerk response given the very distinct possibility that Z had been driving back-and-forth along LHR and parking on-and-off in the attack site for some 2 hours beforehand. Not to mention the uncredited morsel that was mentioned in ZU where I found out that the two hunters actually approached the car (presumably Z's) and found it empty.

Other than the handful of houses when you enter the valley LHR runs through, there are no others close to the road; the only other one I know of is the "Marshall Ranch," as Graysmith called it, but it's probably half a mile or so north of the road tucked away in the hills. Today, there are a number of new homes in Benicia along the top of the ridge more-or-less to the south of the attack site, but that's about it.

So, regardless of whether Z was a local or not, in this instance at least, Allen certainly has the advantage over the others concerning the geographical/familiarity aspect.

The other thing is that Vallejo had a population of approximately 71,000 in 1968-69. While still small, it's big enough for someone to not know more than 99% of the other inhabitants, especially if you're in a part of town where you're friends, relatives and coworkers don't live.

Doug, good point on the escalation of weapons. I'm reminded of when Kaczynski remarks how difficult it was to pick off rabbits with a .22, cause even a branch could deflect the aim. Ted, of course, was familiar with weapons from a young age. Ed, I can certainly appreciate that you have the inside trac on Vallejo. I feel the same about the New Bedford case, having spent time there, knowing the roads and woods well, and I was actually there during the still unsolved case. But just as you have an advantage with Vallejo, I have the advantage in dealing the noise-disturbed disposition. If it was as isolated as I've read it was, then Ted could easily be drawn to such an area, and out of necessity, not just that he fancied it. I have nothing but contempt for the game of golf and the type of people it draws but I will say this: It serves as an excellent noise-haven. No chance some a$$.... will be able to stick a dog behind a fence near the kids swingset there. That's intersting, the empty car, if it's not Graysmith fantasy, because I could easily see Ted setting up a campsite in that area.

Doug wrote, "I doubt very seriously if Zodiac canvassed areas looking for the best places to take his victims."

Why? There are numerous things that point to the idea that LHR was a trolling spot and very little that marks the spot as a random location.

"The first killing was probably more-or-less a knee-jerk response, given the kind of weapon he used."

A weapon with a penlight attached to it indicates that LHR was a knee-jerk response? I'll have to disagree with that, Doug. The location, in addition to the weapon, seems to suggest that Zodiac was trolling for victims that night.

Zander wrote, "I have the advantage in dealing the noise-disturbed disposition. If it was as isolated as I've read it was, then Ted could easily be drawn to such an area, and out of necessity . . . [BRS] serves as an excellent noise-haven. No chance some a$$.... will be able to stick a dog behind a fence near the kids swingset there."

Interesting. Let's see if I've got this right: Because of Ted's "noise-disturbed disposition" he sought areas that Zander calls "noise-havens." However, having found two such spots in LHR and BRS, he doesn't hesitate to whip out a pistol and begin blasting away at his victims.

Am I the only one who is confused by that logic? Seriously, maybe it is just me, so I'll give Zander the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, does it seem logical that someone who has a "noise-disturbed disposition" would take a liking to firearms?

Scott, I didn't mean to imply that he simply whipped out a pistol and shot the victims on impulse; simply that not a lot of time elapsed between the point where his ire was roused and he reacted to it; in other words, not time enough to go out and buy a proper weapon to do the job. It's like that little joke about the guy who goes into the gun shop and says, "what do you mean a one-week waiting period? I'm angry now!"

A compelling argument in favor of ALA seems to be that he was more familiar with Vallejo than TK, but TK's familiarity, ease and boldness with writing to the newspapers, including the SF Chronicle (which is documented since his arrest) -- is the more compelling argument as I see it.

Kaczynski prefered isolated areas away from disfunctional people,noise,etc. We see that with his move to Montana. Kaczynski was clearly as I say it a "noise-disturbed" person. Kaczynski was also a bomber. Kaczynski owned guns and hunted for food. So to answer your question whether a "noise-disturbed" person would pick up a firearm? Yes and also a bomb. Eric Rudolph was similar to Ted, though not quite the real Kaczynski. He lived in the mountains, prefered to be alone, spent time in the woods(LOL-is spending time in the woods). Yet, he created the biggest pipe bomb in American history. I'm certainly not suggesting that Kaczynskis murder impulse is explained solely by noise. I found interest in the report that mentions where fireworks were set off in the area and that DF and MM were listening to the radio at the time. I am suggesting that the timing of that drive-by on/after July 4th was not a coincidence.

Zodiac killed a cab driver in S.F.,but this does not mean he LIVED there!Z stabbed a couple at L.B.,but it does not indicate he lived in that area.If Zodiac abducted Lass,it does not prove he was a resident in L.T.If it was Z that abducted KJ(working with her on extorting that 200$!),it does not tell us he lived in Modesto,Tracy or any other city in that area.
Because Zodiac letters,for the most part,had a S.F. postmark on them, does not prove he lived in that city.
Since we know Z phoned the NPD from a booth in Napa,it is not an indiction he lived in Napa.

Howard, that is SO well said.

Just as an aside, there are a lot of things I like about TK (his writing ability is tremendous...his "Ship of Fools" is astounding if you compare it side by side to America's problems today) which makes it all the more ironic that I think he may very well be Z.....call it woman's intuition?

I guess my point was that there is not enough "hard" evidence against Allen, or any other suspect for that matter, to single him out at the exclusion of all others.

Allen being from vallejo should/does make an interesting point. But Grant's home is "peek through the pines" and his basement is subject to flooding. Grant's military and code background are more solid than Allen's.

IMHO, in graysmith's haste to point a finger at a guilty party, he did a disservice to everyone. Classic

Doug,
So TK had a knee-jerk reaction in Vallejo and just happened to have a flashlight taped to his gun?

Ed,
I lived in Richmond (in the east bay just south of Vallejo and north of Berkeley, for you non-bay area people) for 2 years, and I dare say I don't know anyone who went to Vallejo unless they had a good reason (I worked for the Red Cross and occassionally had to go there).

It was postulated that TK worked at Berkeley and went to Vallejo to relax/study. Again, at least today, no one does that! It's a dirty, dingy town (sorry, Ed). The Berkeley and Oakland hills have a million places to get lost in, and everyone I knew went there to hike, meditate, study, whatever. It's so big, you can still be very remote. There were many times I was in Tilden Park and never saw another soul. Why would TK go out of his way to grimy Vallejo when he had eden in his own back yard?

In answer to the statement that Z killed in SF and LB but was not from those places, those were locations many people go to.

When I lived in Richmond, I WENT to Lake Barryessa for fun. I WENT to San Francisco regularly. The only reason I ever went to Vallejo was when work required it. No one goes to Vallejo.

Besides this, I have visited all the Z sites. The Vallejo sites are not places which have quick highway access, and they are not on major routes which go through the city of Vallejo. I think it's unlikely that Z just happened upon them.

Exactly.

Muskogee: haha... that's OK, I didn't live in Vallejo anyway, I lived just north of there in American Canyon, on the other side of the Napa-Solano County line. In any case, it's apparently a lot nicer there now than in the 1960's and 70's (according to those who lived there at the time), and other than Marine World/Africa USA, there's no reason for anyone to go there even today, unless you live there (or in Am Can, as we locals sometimes call American Canyon). Non-locals don't seem to want to believe me when I state that, so thanks for the input!

I'll simply observe that it's the height of arrogance to assume that anyone would either do something or refrain from doing something based upon one's own limited affinities while taking no account of the complexity of the human mind and the inscrutability of human caprice. That, to my way of thinking, is a feeble reason for excluding an otherwise worthy suspect from the list.

However, if you're going to insist that only a local man will do, at least come up with a resident who wasn't listed a month after the incidents as 241 pounds and bald!

Doug, for what it is worth, I've never maintained that the 'Vallejo connection' would exclude anyone from the suspect list. Instead, my assertion is that it's likely that Zodiac was very familiar with Vallejo and it's environs. And, of the known suspects, Allen is the only one with a known connection to Vallejo.

Additionally, I never said that Zodiac must have been a resident of Vallejo, as Howard suggested above. There are many ways in which one might become familiar with a place like Vallejo; perhaps he worked there, grew up there, or had family there. Any way you look at it, the Zodiac was familiar with Vallejo, and the fact that the first two known attacks occurred in that city further indicates Zodiac's familiarity with the area.


"[If] you're going to insist that only a local man will do, at least come up with a resident who wasn't listed a month after the incidents as 241 pounds and bald!"

That's a bunch of malarkey that was offered by the one investigator who dropped the ball on this case worse than anyone else.

Scott, I was referring only to those whom the shoe fit.

So, was Allen bald? Or did he just have wavy hair combed up in a sort of pompadour?

Douglas: that's my opinion as someone who's lived in the area for nearly 30% of his life, and I didn't arrive at it just because someone told me that's how it is. It came from observations I made over the last 14 years as a citizen living in the area where Z committed his crimes, 10 of which where I lived 8 miles or less from the first two crime scenes, and I daresay that's a helluva lot closer than most investigators in this case, armchair and otherwise. Does that mean that proves that Z had to be a local? Of course not! He could have been MHOH from the east coast who just happened to be working at the time here in CA, drove to LHR/BRS one night and got lucky twice. He could also have been TK exploring the area, coming across Vallejo and thinking it's the perfect place to kill someone, and gets lucky twice.

In the Z case, anything is possible, and I'll admit that there is a possibility, however remote, that TK trolled LHR and BRS even though he was from out-of-state and lived in Berkeley. Is it likely? My own opinion, based on the fact that I live here and have observed many of the people who live here, is that it isn't very likely at all. What I see as very likely is that Z was a local in some manner (whether born here, moved here, worked here, or whatever).

Also, don't think that just because my opinion is that Z was a local means that I'm saying that Allen was Z. Quite the contrary, my own theory is that Z lived in Vallejo and was never identified, and if he was, he was cleared immediately because he didn't fit anyone's idea of what Z was supposed to be like.

Is there any evidence placing TK in CA in July or early August 1969, two months of critical importance to the Z case? He could have been here, this is true, but did he not immediately leave the state after his resignation on 6-30-1969 to join his brother on a roadtrip to look for property in the midwest and the Yukon? That means that he was not here to murder Darlene, and since such a trip must have taken several weeks, he could not have written the first 4 letters. So, with the extreme unlikelihood of TK knowing anything about Vallejo (based on my own observations of the behavior of the locals) plus the high probability that he wasn't in CA from 7-4 to 8-4-1969, tells me that TK isn't a very viable suspect at all. Hardly feeble reasoning, especially when you consider that, in many cases, no one but TK knows where he was at all! Assuming that he could have been in CA at the time in question just because it has to fit the theory might be considered feeble.

Allen, on the other hand, did live in Vallejo at the time in question, worked here, and there is a very high probability that he was in Vallejo at the times in question. That makes him far likelier a suspect based on that alone.

In any case, I'd like to think that the observations/opinions of someone who lives here and has taken the time to note the habits of typical inhabitants (and being a massage therapist, I have met over 1,000 new people every year for the last several years who are either new visitors to the Napa Valley or actually live here), talk to them, and find out what makes them tick, actually means something. It's not like I live in Germany, I'm talking in a vacuum and have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of the crimes at all. Nor would I venture an opinion as to what can or cannot be concerning similar matters in crimes in a place I have never been to either. In that case, I'd ask the opinions of those who live there before forming an opinion.

I try not get into hair-splitting, but in this thread and in Zodiac/Unabomber I've noticed several recent references that Allen was "bald" in 1969. I, and I'm sure many men with receding hairlines but with plenty of hair on the rest of their heads, however short they choose to wear it, would complain bitterly about being called bald. To me, bald means just that, even though many men with no hair on top and just along the sides might be referred to by some as bald. Allen was not bald (look at all of his pictures, from his teens to middle age), no matter how many times it is said as a means of detracting from his viability as a Z suspect.

I don't recall a single verified witness using terms such as thin, slender, even average weight to describe Z, yet that's probably closer to what Kaczynski looked like in 1969. Every witness used words such as heavy and stocky, had a round face, etc., which cannot be ignored just to facilitate conformity to one's pet suspect. And even though it's been discussed on the Board in the past, the fact that TK wasn't even close to being heavy or stocky, or having a round face, is not being overstated as a key feature with which to diminish his eligibilty as a suspect. Sure, he could have used padding so he appeared heavier in every crime in which he was seen, but then Allen could have just as easily combed his hair or worn a hairpiece. That blade cuts both ways.

Doug, you're jumping to conclusions. I appologize for using the term, "No one goes to Vallejo." I meant that colloquially, not literally. Very few people go to Vallejo for fun, but I'm sure a few people do (I don't think I'd want to meet them though).

I'm playing an odds game. I think the odds are heavily in favor of Z being a Vallejo native. I certainly don't exclude TK or anyone else based on my beliefs of "who travels where" for relaxation.

I think Ed has a good point about locals having a unique perspective regarding crimes. I would be really interested in Bill's thoughts about this.

No, TK is not and never was a large man; however, TK does have a large face which sports a very prominant, square jaw and somewhat broad nose. As Z himself indicated, he looked entirely different when he did his thing. It certainly wouldn't be out of reach to expect any "disguise" he might have been wearing included clothing to make him look larger. One witness even described his attacker as wearing a "puffed up jacket." With a large face and extended clothing, I believe it would certainly be possible for someone to suspect that his/her attacker would be larger than they actually were.

Ted, in his diaries, described some of his disguise, "...I was wearing silvered glasses, gum (chewing gum) under my upper lip (changing its shape in that way), and a piece of wax in the left nostril, distorting it."

Another entry in Ted's diary described, "When I bought this pipe, I was wearing a bulky cloak, with a jacket inside, so I would appear heavier than I am..."

So, in their own writings, both Ted and the Z admit they appear differently when performing criminal activity.

Uhh, Linda, TK might have admitted that in his own writings, but Z is a known liar and his claim of looking different might or might not be true. Personally, I think that was yet another lie, because he was seen and a composite was done based on the eyewitness reports. He was had, so what could he do? Lie and say he looks different, because that'll confuse the cops. Even then, it made little difference, because it seems that everyone and their grandma looked like Z in 1969.

"...in their own writings, both Ted and the Z admit they appear differently when performing criminal activity."

Just because the Unabomber followed Zodiac's recipe for success doesn't make them one and the same. The odds are just as likely that TK, being familiar with the Zodiac case, emulated the Zodiac with regard to escape and evasion techniques, creating havoc and terror via the media, etc. Hell, it can be argued that TK's known career as a killer was inspired by the Zodiac, rather than both killers being the same. However, some TK opponents [I'm excluding Doug here] will argue to no end about the similarities between the 2 killers, as if that alone is enough to prove that TK was the Zodiac. Is there any proof that these similarities aren't the result of TK being inspired by the Zodiac rather than TK's complicity in both sets of crimes? Is there any reason why such an assertion isn't just as compelling as the idea that TK was both the Zodiac and the Unabomber?

I still can't understand how a killer could progress from the up close and personal type to the kill at a distance type. LB and PH were very personal, messy, hands-on kind of murders. I fail to see how TK could 'progress' from PH to killing from a distance. Zodiac, in my opinion, was clearly driven by some sense of bloodlust. I just don't see that with the Unabomber.

You'e right, Scott... All these similarities can be argued; however, there are just too many that too closely match both Z & U. Furthering the similarities is the fact that there is not one shred of evidence that positively puts TK in an absolute, specific location at the time of any of the Z crimes (of course, this can be said of any and all of the prime suspects).

Additionally, I don't feel you can understand Ted from just the period of time during his Unabomber activites (1978 - on); you have to take a look at Ted, the child, growing up, his needs, his lack of social skills, his inability to fit in with his peers, his jealousies, his intellectual skills, and so on. You need to read (as much as is available) what he has written in his own words (much being de-coded from his journals/diaries) to have a feel for where he was coming from throughout his youth and into adulthood, leading him through the 1960's and the time of the Zodiac era. Ted is a very intelligent and complex individual and even though Ted's Manifesto appears to be addressing anti-technology, you can read between the lines as a justification of his own life and his identification of "oversocialization."

Of course, there is no proof at this time that Zodiac phased into obscurity only to metamorphasize at a later time into the Unabomber; only mounting circumstantial evidence.

Especially for law enforcement to dismiss Ted as a strong suspect in the Zodiac crimes because Zodiac appeared to be the up-close-and-personal type whereas the Unabomber struck from safer distances, is not good detective work (at least in my mine)...There are just too, too many other known Zodiac and known Kaczynski parallel comparisons/similarities to overlook... and no proof as to TK's whereabouts.

If we ever get an answer on inclusion or exclusion of DNA results from S.F. Police Dept, we may be able to just drop the Z/U theory altogether. Anyway, at least until then...TK tops my list.

Enjoying the discussions!

Linda: despite all the interesting and compelling everything about TK that Douglas and others have uncovered (and I certainly respect the time and effort that's gone into it), I still can't accept TK as anything more than an interesting wannabe based solely on the fact that there's a very high probability that he wasn't even in CA between 7-4 and 8-4-1969. So, no matter how much circumstantial evidence one has against a suspect, it means nothing if there is even one solid alibi.

Granted, there's no real proof that he wasn't here, but, with the roadtrip with his brother right after his resignation, there's no proof he was here for BRS and/or the composition of the first 4 letters and 408-cipher.

Allen, on the other hand, not only was in CA, but was almost certainly in Vallejo at the time in question.

My most difficult problem with Allen is the fact that there's no proof of his intense need to write. Even with him gone, there's been nothing uncovered to indicate he had a desire to put things in writing or in code. I truly believe this is a HUGE part of solving this case. No other suspect has been proven to have this desire or need. And none can have their writing style matched so closely as TK.

I would still have to say there's more of a probability that TK may have been Z than any other known suspect. Otherwise, the suspect has yet to be identified.

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. Unless you can absolutely prove that TK was in CA for that critical period in question, then there is a very high probability that he was nowhere near CA at the time and was actually on his way to the Yukon or wherever. If so, then all the needs and desires he had that are similar to Z's aren't worth beans.

Ed, I do understand what you're saying; however, there's no proof that he wasn't in California either. Ted was supposed to have been with his brother sometime during the summer and exactly when they actually traveled to Alaska during that summer has never been identified. Ted's specific whereabouts are definitely unknown during that period of time.

Just because it's been said that he was "traveling" or "taking a trip to Alaska" during a specific period of time (the summer) is a very poor reason for law enforcement to dump the idea that he has a clear alibi. There's no reference to the FBI reports as to what was meant by traveling nor any legend as to what specific time/s were meant by "during the summer." Summer covers several months.

Maybe I'm just nitpicky, but if I were a real investigator and had a suspect that was as good a match as Kaczynski, I would be putting forth every single bit of effort into finding out his EXACT whereabouts on any of the key dates in question...whether it ended up clearing him or not... If the results would prove him to physically be in another location at any of the specific time/times of the murders, then I would have a clear conscience that I'd done everything possible to eliminate this good suspect and delve heavily into other directions.

Linda, when Allen was arrested for child molesting in 1974 he requested a pen and paper from the officers so he could put his thoughts on paper whether to confess or plead guilty. I'd say that's rather unusual.

Linda wrote:

Ed, I do understand what you're saying; however, there's no proof that he wasn't in California either.

And that's the whole problem: we don't know where TK was at all! To assume he had to be in CA just because the theory demands it is pretty weak. While I may find the rest compelling, TK's whereabouts from July to early August 1969 is the weakest link in the chain. It's something that needs to be proven one way or the other, and considering that he had enough of civilization, I personally don't see him hanging around a place he doesn't fit in just long enough to commit 3 murders, write four letters and compose a cipher. I see him getting the hell out of Dodge. So, I suggest that someone figure out where he was so we can truly see whether he is a viable suspect or not.

Allen, on the other hand, not only was in CA, but probably within 5 miles of the crime scenes.

Ed... I just said that very same thing in my post... any real investigator worth his weight in gold would be hoofing it trying to PROVE that Kaczynski WASN'T in California... so they could move on and concentrate wholely in another direction. For an investigator to dismiss the remarkable match between TK and the Zodiac at the forefront just because it was told that TK was "out of town" (so to speak), shows pretty poor investigation skills to me...

Maybe that's why we have so many unsolved crimes (and/or the wrong people being arrested).

Mind you, I don't say for sure that TK was Z...only that he absolutely, 100% and positively CANNOT be eliminated until there is proof positive as to his whereabouts...one way or another.

Tom... It is interesting that Allen requested pen and paper to write down his thoughts on how he should plead to child molestation; however, I just don't think that compares to having a NEED to write, something that is clearly observed with Zodiac AND the Unabomber. (Is this writing of Allen's available for comparison)?

Taking a look at criminals' use of correspondence...how many other criminals do we see that share this NEED or desire? Then by taking the known criminals who do have this penchant for writing to police, victims and/or media in order to tease, taunt and threaten, how many of them MATCH handwriting/printing, MATCH in writing style (including words/phrases used and punctuation) and actually USED code? The percentages are extremely reduced... Combined with other reduction factors, you can narrow the field down considerably to include very good suspects...

As far as Allen (and other suspects) are concerned, I would love to see anything and everything they have written. Again, I think this a very key factor in identifying the real Zodiac.

Linda, have you forgotten that Allen's sister-in-law saw in Allen's possession pages with cryptographic writing/marks on them? What about Allen's forgery attempt while at Atascadero? What about the Royal typewriter that Allen possessed but was never tested? There's stuff out there about Allen and writing if you take the time to look.

Scott... Are these pages that Allen's sister-in-law saw available for comparison purposes? What type of cryptography and/or mark/s was written on the pages? Were detectives able to retrieve or did they keep the forgery attempt, also for comparison purposes? And what happened to the typewriter? A typewriter, of course, suspect as it relates to the Cheri Jo Bates murder of 1966 (however, as we know, this murder not being positively confirmed, to date, as a Zodiac crime). Just a side note: I believe a Royal typewriter was also found in the possession of Ted Kaczynski when his cabin was searched.

Scott... If these samples of Allen's writings exist, they would most certainly put more notches in the plus column for "Allen as a good suspect;" however, as it stands now, Kaczysnki still remains the strongest suspect as it relates to writing comparisons...

Here's a thought... Ted wrote the missives/codes; Allen was the killer! Hmmm...just brainstorming!

Linda, you really need to click around the site once in a while.

Linda, you wrote:

... any real investigator worth his weight in gold would be hoofing it trying to PROVE that Kaczynski WASN'T in California...

Let's put this in perspective. Knowing what I know of TK (which admittedly isn't anywhere near as much as Douglas) tells me he almost certainly was not here in CA. Since I don't consider him to be more viable than any other suspect, I'm not too concerned with proving he wasn't here; the FBI seems to be convinced he wasn't, and I've no reason to question their assertion, despite the fact that they won't release the relevant information. Since he's your boy, however, and since you're 99% convinced he's Z, I would suggest the onus is on you to prove that he was in CA from 7-4 to 8-4-1969 to the satisfaction of us disbelievers.

Ed, I'm certainly no professional investigator or detective and I'm quite a distance from California, but you can believe if I was one, I'd take every opportunity of my position and resources to positively exclude any questionable suspect.

I think Doug and Mike have done an absolutely outstanding job of taking their own time, money and effort into providing law enforcement with the unquestionable similarities/circumstantial evidence linking TK to the Zodiac. They've done a fantastic job of doing a lot of the police department's work for them... In a sense, they've acted as witnesses and lead the police to a very viable suspect. Now it's their (the police dept's) responsibility to see where that leads by proving one way or the other that this (or any other suspect) could or could not have possibly been the perpetrator. Then they can move on...the same as with every other viable suspect (and I'm not just talking about the Z crimes here...as with any crime, detectives/investigators/law enforcement have an obligation to rule in and out possible suspects, credibly identified).

And Law Enforcement doesn't really want amateurs doing their work (at least I certainly don't think so...they get in the way, sometimes put themselves in danger, etc., etc.). Besides that, Law Enforcement has so many more resources readily and more easily accessible to them; many which are totally unavailable or out of reach of the lay person.

If I were an investigator out in California, I'd do what I could to research and to try and track down the whereabouts of TK during 1969-1970. In fact, I'd start by attempting to find out exactly when TK received a ticket for passing a stopped school bus. Why? Ted told Dr. Sally Johnson during sittings with her while she developed his psychological profile (in 1996) that the only other time he had been in trouble with the law was "approximately 25 years ago" when he passed a stopped school bus. This required that he appear at a Justic of the Peac Court where he plead guilty and paid a fine of $25.

This may seem very insignificant and it may well mean nothing more than what it actually was; however, as we know from his own diaries, Ted sought revenge as a suitable resolution for many unjustifiable problems or inadequacies he felt had
been dealt him… Now…we know that Zodiac, in his correspondence of October 13, 1969, threatened to wipe out a school bus and "pick off the kiddies" only to wryly retract his words in his November 9, 1969, 7-page letter to the San Francisco Chronicle.

We also know that on June 27, 1995, the Unabomber made a threat to blow up an airliner out of Los Angeles, only to sarcastically write it off two days later in correspondence to….yes, the San Francisco Chronicle.

Both Zodiac and Unabomber not only threatened the general public through extremely sensitive targets (busses & aiplanes) where wide-scale attention would be acknowledged, but both corresponded with the San Francisco Chronicle AND THEN "retracted" their threat….

Wouldn't it be an extraordinary coincidence if we would ever find where Ted received his ticket and that it was sometime just prior to Zodiac's first "school bus" threat? Where did Ted receive this ticket? Was it during that summer of 1969, in California by chance?

I think this is another worthy lead to definitely check out.

Linda,
You are correct,but the authorities want hard evidence,not just a series of links per se.We have plenty of links with various suspects,but the hard evidence is what cements them to conviction.
Thus far,there is NO solid evience for ANY suspect in the Zodiac case.We may 'convert' people to our guy,but what is that?This is not a revival of religion where converts are made!
If all of the posters said it's ALA,or Kane or TK,etc., where would we be as far as a rock solid conviction?Zero.
Look at the Ripper case.The longer it goes unsolved the more 'viable' suspects are developed.I read the Ripperana to keep up with this age old case and there are lots of great suspects with lots of 'proof',but we come to no final conculsion.No hard evidence,just real good links,etc.
If this case goes on for 30 + years more we will see more suspects and 'proofs' of their guilt.
Doug once posted his suspect was better than mine.I say ALL are in the same boat on the river of no return until hard core evidence is produced that will stand up in a court of law.
ALL of the suspects have problems.
All I have posted is not meant to criticise your fine post(you are a good poster-I am the problem poster child!),it is just an expression based on the intent or concept of your assertions that I think we all can agree on.

Thanks for your comments, Howard. I appreciate your response and do understand and agree that each one of the Z suspects has their own problems. What I don't understand is how can hard evidence be obtained unless you have an investigator and/or detective diligently pursuing the leads (circumstantial or otherwise) provided by witnesses or others (in any type case). And I truly believe in the instance of TK, Doug & Mike have provided excellent ones. I can't speak for any of the other suspects, but unless they're making an attempt (especially in light of the DNA evidence apparently retrieved from known Z missives) at this time, I don't think they've even bothered to take a thorough look into TK's past and attempting their own investigation.

Again, Howard, thanks for your comments. Hope you can understand where I'm coming from on this... I'm just a layperson when it comes to being knowledgeable as to the scope of what law enforcement is able to pursue and/or achieve. Probably been watching too much Law and Order!

Linda!