Cheri Jo Bates-DNA Results: NO MATCH! Message Board: Possible Zodiac Victim Cheri Jo Bates: Cheri Jo Bates-DNA Results: NO MATCH!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

Click here for the latest.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 06:01 pm:

When I visited the RPD office in the latter 80's I told them there would be no match up to anything relative to "Bob Barnett" as I think he is innocent. All evidence pointed to another person and it did not fit their "local boy." Of course , I was literally scoffed at and they told reporters not to listen to my information. They ignored the PD and still did a story on my suspect and work.

I hope they now will come to their professional senses and share the numbers with SFPD and any other law enforcement agency.There has been enough time wasted.

For them to hold off as long as they did and with such subterfuges as 'the DNA has been sent to Berkeley 'is unprofessional.

I,and others,knew this had to be a stall, as who would not confirm when and if, the FBI granted positive results on your DNA submission!

I and Dave Peterson have consistently maintained (he since '70 and myself since '87 )that it was most probably Zodiac that wrote the'66 Confession letter/'67 notes and took the life of Cheri Josephine Bates!

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 06:55 pm:

If now the DNA matches with Allen, it's case closed for me, matches with Ted K--case closed, matches with Kane-- case closed, matches with Davis--case closed. The beauty here is that now that we've gotten Barnett out of the way, which I think we all knew was ridiculous, we can finally persuade RPD to link Z to the murder, and go for a match with all the major suspects. I think RPD needs a resounding DUH!!

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 07:39 pm:

I think we all need to see if this info is reliable before duh-ing anyone.


By Esau (Esau) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 08:45 pm:

I agree with you Jake but if this new development is correct it is a classic example of what John Douglas calls "tunnel vision". If this is correct it would mean that RPD spent 35 years harassing an innocent person and ignoring other important leads and information. If any high ranking RPD person is reading this I would like to take this moment to ask you to get the DNA results to SFPD PDQ.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:01 pm:

Since the DNA results have apparently exonerated "Barnett," it's a good thing that he was never tried and convicted of a crime he didn't commit. What if he had been sentenced to death and already executed for it? Oops. It's a good thing RPD's circumstantial case was never good enough to hold up in court.

After p*ssing away 35 years by screwing off, wasting money and harassing an innocent person, maybe now (assuming that this is not more mis- or disinformation) RPD can start a real investigation and find the real killer of Cheri Jo Bates. And perhaps they can start by following up the Z angle and comparing notes with SFPD, VPD and NSD, like they were doing back in October 1969.

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:44 pm:

Hello All!

I find it very interesting at how accepting everyone is to ruling-out suspects in lieu of what the forensic evidence says--and I think that's a very good thing; it's the correct way of thinking! However, when (I should say "if") DNA tests are finally done for Allen and the results come back negative (and I predict they will), I want everyone to remember this and pay close attention at how quickly those results get sloughed-off as inconsequential or "inconclusive" by the powers that be in order to keep their favorite suspect in the game. It will be very interesting indeed...


Bruce Monson

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:49 pm:

It would be nice if we could see the results.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:59 pm:

I have one of my Riverside sources on tape, although at this point his name will not be made public.

By Bruce (Bruce_D) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 11:04 pm:

Bruce M,
I would like to know who your favorite suspect is and a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of ihs viality as a suspect. You have a lot to digress about on the Board and I just want to see if you can expound on your pick.
I don't have too much to contribute to the Board.I mostly use it to glean info from others.
Bruce D

By Bruce (Bruce_D) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 11:07 pm:

Sorry, Bruce M.
Spelling errors-his(ihs)
Bruce D

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 11:08 pm:

Since MONSON will certainly use your request to create The World's Largest Post, I'd prefer he e-mail it to you at:

By Mark (Mark) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 03:08 am:

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that they've actually made some headway with the Riverside DNA, I certainly hope that they collaborate with SFPD AND the Vallejo PD soon! I've always been really high on Allen and also am not totally convinced that the Bates murder was Z's work so it's possible he won't be a match with this DNA.
I'll be really surprised if he isn't a match for the SF DNA but I'm not going to try and explain it away if it happens-Allen will be eliminated once and for all in my book. What would be totally bizarre (and inconceiveable) is if he were a match on the Riverside and not on the SF DNA! (Lets say impossible on that one!)
I find it hard to believe that these police departments are worried about looking bad at this point-I mean how much worse could they look? Yet that seems to be the situation, Riverside has really been lollygagging around with their evidence. So Joanne West of the VPD is the head of the Zodiac Task Force -I'm hoping that she can get the ball rolling in earnest and get what's needed-the 3 departments working together once and for all. Even with manpower and financial constraints I think within two months we should at least know whether Allen is in or out. Anybody else think that this is a reasonable amount of time? Mark

By Spencer (Spencer) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:10 pm:

If it hasn't been done already, we should call the newspapers in San Francisco (the Examiner/Chronicle) and in Solano/Napa Counties (the Vallejo Times-Herald, the Daily Republic, the Reporter, and the Napa Register) in order to put the pressure on the SFPD, Napa Sheriff's Office, Solano Sheriff's Office, and VPD to DEMAND the Riverside DNA results.

It's been a slow news week, these papers will be clamoring for a story that they can mostly cut-and-paste from previous stories (with all the inaccuracies that are fit to print).

At the very least it'll keep RPD on their toes, answering phone calls from a half-dozen reporters.


By Spencer (Spencer) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:29 pm:

Riverside Press-Enterprise: 909-684-1200

Chronicle: 415-777-1111

Examiner: 415.359.2600

Times-Herald: (707) 644-1141

Register: 707.224.3963

Daily Republic: (707) 425-4646 or (707) 425-5007 after hours

The (Vacaville) Reporter: Newsroom 707-448-2200

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 01:20 pm:

Calaveras County Dispatch-Ledger: (209) 736-0921

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 02:21 pm:

If the DNA results from Riverside do not match ALA's DNA, I won't be very surprised. I have my doubts that Z killed CJB anyway. However, if SFPD's DNA doesn't match ALA, I'll gladly dismiss Mr. Allen as a suspect, as long as the DNA being referenced was taken from a letter that contained a piece of Stine's shirt. However, and correct me if I'm wrong (like I really need to worry about THAT!), I'm under the impression that no decent DNA samples were obtained from any of the letters other than the '78 letter. Am I wrong?


By Bruce (Bruce_D) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

And the '78 letter-the powers to be think it was a
bogus claim.
Bruce D

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 06:25 pm:

CJB is an integral part of practically everybody's favorite suspect-- Tom has Allen in the Riverside area for the long weekend, Doug has Ted K. scouting out for colleges in Riverside as part of the UC system, Howard has Davis cruising around the Inland area's of Riverside and Poway. I have Kane working for a Riverside Co. in 1966.
So, let's face it, if it doesn't match anyone of them that puts a huge crink in each's theory--might as well trash it.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 08:19 pm:

Sylvie, Lawrence Kane can't be placed in Riverside at the time of the Bates murder.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:36 pm:

In the Lawrence Kane thread (Nov.4,00 @ 10:42) a
messsage by MHoward quotes Hines from the Crime Files as placing Krew (Kane) as working for a Riverside real estate co. in the mid-1960's.
I'm not saying that is fact but at least some people think it is.

By Mark (Mark) ( - on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 10:09 pm:

Scott-some good questions, I guess another one is how many of the letters CAN decent DNA samples be taken from? Like you were saying in your post in the SF DNA thread the report is a bit confusing. We have the three letters(the Johns, Buttons, and Exorcist) with the comment "cells found". All the of the others the exception of the '78 letter of course have the comment "few cells". I'm inclined to take that literally and think it means just that-a few cells were found. As Eduard was saying in the SF DNA thread I believe that it is possible to get a decent workable amount of DNA from even the ones with "few cells" using the PCR process. So if the few cells are intact enough for the "cloning" they should have enough to work with. Lets just hope that some survived in shape and the lab is working on it! I did email SFPD about this not really expecting an answer and I haven't heard anything so far. (I doubt they pay that much attention to their emails) Mark

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:10 am:

Scott: Eduard is a brilliant professional who has worked with the DNA system and he E mailed me indicating the PD are, shall we say,less than astute or they are just pulling our DNA!

There are enough cells,according to Eduard-he should know- as he did this type of work.

Check his post reference to DNA; but it's the Dumb Northern Attitude/DNA brain cells(their report says"few cells"!) I am concerned with and I don't mean Allens!

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:45 am:

Sylvie: If I'm not mistaken, according to Hines, Kane was supposed to be working with a real estate firm that was developing subdivisions in Riverside in 1966. However, that doesn't mean the firm was based there, nor that Kane worked on that project or had any reason to go to Riverside. Considering how common the name "Larry Kane" actually is, it doesn't even mean it was the same guy.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:55 am:

Knowing Hines, the guy he found was probably Louie Krane.

Now, let's please not ruin this thread by dwelling on the worst suspect of all time, Larry Kane.

Back to:
Cheri Jo Bates-DNA Results: NO MATCH!

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:15 am:

Now that we have that settled...

Allen was apparently there on the day, so his DNA needs to be compared to CJB's killer. The only other ones I can think of who were supposed to be near Riverside at the time were Jack Beeman (who lived about 20 minutes away) and Bruce Davis. Beeman can be written off, so the only other one besides Allen to compare to be certain is Davis.

Are there any other suspects who are positively known to have been in or near Riverside in October 1966?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 04:27 am:

Can I ask those of you who were inclined to believe "Barnett" was guilty,if you are now inclined to believe the confession letter to have been written by her killer?.
Also a question to those of you(probably Jake among others)who do not think this Murder or letter was Zodiac's work because of the sexual aspects of the murder and the Freudian undertones in the letter.
Is it not possible that like was not being compared to like? By that I mean,is it actually possible to compare the same person(such as this)
in these terms in 1966 and expect him to be the same person in 1968?.
Whatever "terms"are applicable to Zodiac's mental state is there not an "evolution" of sorts involved.
I am inclined to believe that whoever did kill CJB that night maybe did not set out with that in mind,neither though did he set out to talk.Possible as Douglas opines it was an attempted rape.But by someone with deep confusion over their sexuality.This confusion turned to rage and murder!
There was a combination here either way that did not fit Barnett IMHO.
Anyway,as to who did kill Bates?The confession letter and other evidence seems to point to someone who actually lived in Riverside,did know CJB if only to see,or someone who was a very frequent visitor and familiar with the area.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:32 am:

Question 1: Was Allen definitely in Riverside or was it Pomona?? They are hardly right next to each other.
Question 2: What would a girl like Cheri Jo be doing chatting with a chubby nerd loser like Allen for more than an hour?
Bring it on Tom.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:51 am:

I actually suspect that she may have been talking to someone else on that night before she met her killer,maybe even "Barnett"!.The books in her car are still causing problems.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 10:14 am:


1) Allen supposedly was staying in Pomona, and went to Riverside for some race that weekend (if I remember correctly).

2) Why does anyone talk to anyone?

Lapumo: I was never certain that BB was her killer, nor that Z was either, based on the evidence as it was. Now that DNA has apparently proven BB could not have been the perp, it seems more likely (again) that Z was. Since it is apparent that Z wrote the three 4-30-1967 letters, and probably the confession letter as well, it seems likely that Z was her killer after all, just as RPD had thought way back in October 1969.

Since BB is exonerated, and the trail is stone cold at any rate, what other option does RPD have at the moment?

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 11:04 am:


By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:41 pm:

That's a tough one Ed.As far as RPD are concerned
who knows,depends on their original case,before "Barnett" arrived on the scene.Did
they think he was so good that they did not follow other leads after he came along!Other than that it depends what they now believe.
My thoughts were directed more to us here on the board.Everyone has their own ideas and who's to say who's right or wrong.I just happen to believe Zodiac wrote the Confession letter and that he either killed CJB or got the information first hand.That's why I made my first point...I thought people were willing to dismiss this letter as the work of a..n..other because of Barnett.
My second point was aimed at what Jake apparently believes.
There are 2 different thoughts here.
1.A rage killing committed by Barnett someone she knew.
2.Possibly the first of an evolving serial killer.
We had with this the organized and disorganized
aspects of the crime.For me the organization and planning was built out of fantasy over a long period.The disorganization is self explanatory.
We know to get to this stage takes several years
of different stages through Fantasy, stalking,and eventual murder.Starting at approx 15 thru 25.For me the confession letter fits this to a tee.
I was just wondering if there was a center ground
here somewhere!.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

On #2 "why does anyone talk to anyone?"
Here we have a typical point of a man's point of view vs. a woman's. Here you are on a Sat. night, a pretty popular girl who would rather be anywhere than stuck in a deserted parking lot, and some strange guy (which presumably Allen would have been) comes up to you. He is not a small guy, nothing charming there (as in the case of Bundy) and at this point she is going to engage in small talk? About what "Titwillow?"
Ditto for Ted K. - about what- advanced calculus?
Remember there were and still are plenty of inhabited houses nearby, in fact RCC is really in a residential section.
CJB was young but she was not stupid.
I don't blame you but naturally you think like a man. That's why most men will take a walk outside at night alone but most women would'nt think of it.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 02:02 pm:

Gee, Sylvie, then why are so many women the victims of serial killers?
It's a total waste of time and space trying to figure out how and why Allen might have gotten access to Bates. Since they are both dead, if Allen killed her we will never know.

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

Lapumo wrote:
"Also a question to those of you(probably Jake among others)who do not think this Murder or letter was Zodiac's work because of the sexual aspects of the murder and the Freudian undertones in the letter..."

I should first point out that RPD has little to gain by leaking accurate info showing that they were wrong all along. They leaked info a few years back (has it been that long?) that appeared to implicate their suspect; it's Machiavellian, but I wouldn't rule out a ruse whereby they leaked info that would encourage said suspect to return to the US from his home abroad so that they could arrest him using a positive DNA match that they had withheld.

Now, that being said, I'll take the info at face value and admit openly that the case against BB looks pretty lousy now. There's no overkill present to suggest that the killer had been bottling up anger against her, and now there's nothing but rumor pointing to BB specifically -- and you know what I think of rumors. Given that Bates did spend over an hour with the killer, though, does imply that she knew him, recognized him, or was aware of him on some level.

I've pointed out before that Berryessa -- specifically with its restraints -- could have been a direct evolution from the Bates murder (those who have insinuated that I've been coopted by Mike Kelleher would do well to read our Q&As, which spell out a few of our differences on this and other topics). There's also the obvious element of letter-writing, and even though it's dicey to attribute every anonymous or pseudonymous letter to Z, the link looks stronger in the absence of an alternate suspect.

One final note: I don't think Z was ever comfortable around his victims. In Vallejo, he walked up, blitzed, and split. At Berryessa, he grew more and more nervous -- to the point where his hands were shaking -- around them. Johns is a little less clear, but he never touched her or spoke to her on a personal level -- just made weird and vaguely threatening statements. He never mentioned his victims' names in his letters, just "boy," "girl," "the woeman," etc. One would expect that he would grow more comfortable, not less so, around his intended victims as he gained confidence.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 04:08 pm:

I'll buy what you're saying to a certain extent Jake, except that the nervousness exhibited by the perpetrator could very well be an indication that he's experiencing stimulation by the encounter.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:03 pm:

Jake: The Confession letter uses Bates' name as well as the '67 notes(once)with most Experts-including Morrell, giving a green ID as to the writer-Zodiac!

To an extent, most sequential killers are emotionally and mentally detached from their victims, but do not write letters, and so we find this depersonalization in the use of the terms boy/girl/cab driver,"woeman",etc.

Bundy discussed this factor in his "third person"interviews as you know .He said that he avoided 'closeness' as he knew he was going to kill them and this was his way to make the task 'easier' or to avoid personalization so he would not sympathize with them and possibly let them live, thus leaving a witness.

Bobby Jo Long ,after killing several people, decided to released a young girl after terrorizing her and she later became his legal down fall(boy- the thanks you get nowadays,as Long complains from his cell!).

I am just affirming this to the posters as I know you are aware of these facts.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

Lampumo: I will play Tom and state that there is a ton of posts on this very subject/s.If ya want a poster's view just click their name.I know you know this , but I want to make others aware.

I am just giving this out to posters that may be new or just have not bothered to search the Archives.Tom,Jake,Ed,Douglas and a lot of posters have clicked out some interesting and informative stuff. It's an effort- but time well spent.And it saves these people from going over the same material.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:35 pm:

Sylvie: the houses along Terracina were empty by October 1966, and those along Fairfax were too, if I'm not mistaken. They were all torn down shortly thereafter anyway. So, when your car doesn't work, and there is no one else around except a stranger and apparent good Samaritan, a "chubby nerd loser like Allen," what do you do? It's not like there was much of a choice at the time.

Let me tell you a story. Many years ago, while I was at the library at Sonoma State (Allen's alma mater), another student struck up a conversation with me. It was late at night, and she didn't want to go out to the parking lot alone, and so I escorted her to her car. While I'm hardly a "chubby nerd loser like Allen," I was a complete stranger nonetheless. I was also around 26 at the time and probably 5 to 7 years older than she was (Z might have been 10 to 12 years older than CJB). The similarities between that incident and what happened to CJB are pretty obvious, but nothing untoward happened, because I am nothing if not a gentleman.

So, I don't see any problem with CJB talking to someone like Allen if there was no other option, given the circumstances.

The question is, since the perp was not BB, was it Allen, Davis, or someone else not yet identified? That's one thing I'd still like to see: does anyone know of any suspect who was actually in Riverside on 10-30-1966, who should have his DNA compared to CJB's killer?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 05:41 pm:

Not only that, Sylvie, but the murder took place on a Sunday night, not Saturday. Cheri would have found herself stranded with no help in sight and her father out for the night with some date.

However, I'm not comfortable with the idea of her sitting there jawing for over an hour with the killer (despite what I wrote in "Dr. Zodiac" more than three years ago). I'm more inclined now to think that she may have been abducted and taken for a ride prior to the murder.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 06:12 pm:

Douglas: then what? The killer took her back to RCC and killed her there? Or perhaps a scarier scenario: he took her home, only to find that her father wasn't there, so maybe he told her, "Let me stop by my place and get some tools to fix your car," and then eventually returned to RCC. The purpose behind that would be to ensure that everyone else would have long since left RCC, so he could kill her there without interruption. That would explain why the books were in her car, but she was found quite a distance from it. That would also explain how she was murdered 60 to 90 minutes after the library closed.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:13 pm:

Ed: Yes there is.Ross Sullivan attended RCC when Bates was there and he worked in the library. This is where Jo Ann Baily, a librarian at RCC for many years steps in with her offer(don't tell Jake -she sees him as- yuk, a "suspect"!)of Sullivan as,in her view, the killer of Bates.

I spoke to her in person at RCC and received a letter from her all expounding on why she feels Ross might be the perp.She does have some good reasons too. I look at everyone as a mind is like a parachute-it's no good unless it's open!

He seems to have spent time at a mental hospital(Patton) and Peterson found a record of him in Santa Cruz(Elaine Davis was taken to this area from Walnut CREEK 12/1/69) for public drunkenness in '69 I think. When I brought him up to Peterson, he ,of course, already knew about him and sent me the PD report on his brush with the law.

He is a big strong guy from what Jo Ann tells me. He love to talk to young girls and Baily and her fellow couldn't believe any female would talk to him, but they did. Kinda fits in with your posts about Bates speaking to a stranger.

He was absent the day after Bates was killed. He owned a motorcycle and some witnesses said it sounded like an 'old car(what I believe-a Studebaker)or motorcycle starting up' just after the murder.

Baily recounted for me that one night she was getting into her car and Ross suddenly came out of no where and spoke to her. She said it scared her even though she knew him.The idea is that he must have waited for her and approached her suddenly.

He had a very strange personality and was very secretive.Now, what makes this suspect 'important' is DNA. It has now changed the playing field.

One finds a suspect and simply checks their DNA.This is why, more than ever, it is important to single out possibles -if it seems merited,and weed them out, or,hopefully, in by the DNA process.

Even when you don't have a suspect DNA can be used like they did in England to solve a murder. A person was murdered and the police couldn't
find the killer, so they decided to test all males in this small village. No match. Then they expanded their testing and finally, in one town a man tested positive/ DNA!He was convicted! The field is different than it was just a few years ago.

So Ross Sullivan should have his DNA checked to rule him in or out.There is a Ross Sullivan in Riverside and in Bakersfield and no one has produced him.

I sent a letter to Bakersfield so we shall see.One would be a fool to neglect him in DNA testing.

Will RPD, the most stubborn PD on the planet, do it?Or will they share their numbers? Other agencies should take this issue to court if Riverside won't give up the numbers.

By Maxson (Maxson) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

The problem with the idea of testing all males in America at least is that it would almost certinly bring up some law suits against RPD. I believe that this would fall under the 4th and 5th amendments to the US Constitution. But I do agree that RPD needs to share it's information, that has been one of the bigest problems in this case and probably the single biggest reason why it was never solved.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 10:01 pm:

That and the tunnel vision that seems to have plagued the investigators for 35 years now...

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 11:10 pm:

I wonder if Ross Sullivan's middle name begins with an H ??

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 11:45 pm:

Ed writes: Douglas: then what? The killer took her back to RCC and killed her there? Or perhaps a scarier scenario: he took her home, only to find that her father wasn't there, so maybe he told her, "Let me stop by my place and get some tools to fix your car," and then eventually returned to RCC. The purpose behind that would be to ensure that everyone else would have long since left RCC, so he could kill her there without interruption. That would explain why the books were in her car, but she was found quite a distance from it. That would also explain how she was murdered 60 to 90 minutes after the library closed.

I'm sure you've heard me go on about the kissing kidnapper. I still think this is an important case to bear in mind when looking at the Bates murder--an unknown individual who seemed to get his jollies by forcing women to drive him all over creation and who couldn't seem to work up the nerve to consummate a planned rape. But the fact that the books were still in the car, and the windows rolled down, suggests to me that he forced might have forced Cheri away from the VW, perhaps using the "I've got a gun" scenario.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 12:13 am:

Maxon: I hope you did not misunderstand me.I only brought out that kind of testing was conducted in merry ol' England.

A recent article in the LA TIMES quotes Orange county police as saying they are DNAing all suspects in the murder of a young woman ;and when someone is found hanging out around the murder victims apartment they are ASKED to volunteer for a test. Most comply.

By Jeff B (Jbeverid) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 09:07 am:

I still can't get over the fact that the friend of Barnett's said that Barnett confessed to him that he had killed CJB. Isn't that one reason (along with the fact the he used to date CJB) why they started investigating Barnett in the first place? Why would this guy implicate Barnett?

Also, could this friend of Barnett be held liable for this since Barnett has been presumably dismissed as a suspect? If someone told the police that I had confessed to murder when I was innocent I would want that guy locked up! I also might want to have the guy investigated himself as a suspect.

Of course there still is the possibility that Barnett got someone ELSE to murder CJB. This would explain why there isn't a DNA match, why Barnett confessed to his friend that he killed CJB (he could have meant that he had someone ELSE kill her), and why he appeared so guilty to the Riverside Police (he thought the police knew of his involvement).

Of course this is all speculation. For some reason though my gut tells me that Zodiac was not involved in CJB's murder.

By Zoe Glass (Zoe_Glass) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 01:00 pm:

CJB ,God bless her, could very well have been an attempt at artistry rather than just the commonly defined "over kill" of rage. In which case the knife used would have been a zodiac choice.

By Maxson (Maxson) ( - on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 10:38 pm:

I did understand that it was only in the UK. You're right that most people would comply to DNA. After all, nothing to hide, nothing to fear, but there would be those people who wouldn't like their DNA on file, like the person who did it, if he lived there.

PS - maxSon, Don't feel bad, happens all the time.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:15 am:

I was speaking of the houses on Ramona. They have been there forever, always inhabited.The layout that has not changed is: Ramona to the south, a middle school and Episcopal church to the west, the tennis courts and the football field to the north, and a winding road with apt. buildings to the east. The point was that there were places to run if she'd felt as though she were in danger.
She seemed to feel comfortable with her attacker.
Doug, you are so right -- it was a Sunday, what got me confused was that Allen took off the 1st of Nov., so thinking the only way it would mean anything was if it was part of a "long weekend" to recover, I was assuming it was Sat., therefore,
if Allen went to work on Monday, the 31st, I am sorry but it means zero that he took Tuesday off.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:22 am:

Not only that, Sylvie, but the torn-off watch had a "seven-inch circumference" (take a look at the photo--I'm assuming it's a 100 percent shot, because the circumference from the point where it buckles to the point of attachment is precisely seven inches, as stated in the newspapers) meaning that its owner's wrist was no larger than seven inches. Take a look at any shot you can find of Allen. Is this a man with a seven-inch wrist? I think not.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:46 am:

I wouldn't bet against it, Doug.
After all, who would have thought the humongous "Bob Starr" was actually under six-feet tall?

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 02:08 am:

Doug: I'm 6'10", 290lbs. and the circumference of my wrist is just over 8 inches. I'd say that I'd dwarf ALA in every manner. 7" is not THAT dainty.


By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 02:15 am:

Sylvie: this is true, but people do the oddest things during stressful situations. I once worked at this place that was very nearly burned down because a careless and forgetful person (not me!!!! The owner's daughter, actually) left oil warming on a stove. It caught fire, and a guest happened to be walking by the kitchen and saw it. He ran right by the fire extinguisher, into the kitchen, picked up the burning pan and threw it on the floor (the flames had ignited the cupboards above the stove). The extinguisher was in plain sight, right next to the door he ran through, in fact, yet he ignored it and instead succeeded in getting second and/or third degree burns on his hand while trying to be a hero.

Another case in point is a scene from the slasher flick, The House on Sorority Row. The bad guy stalks this one girl, who runs through a large crowd of dancing people downstairs while trying to find a place to hide, and ends up in a room upstairs, as I recall. The bad guy killed her, needless to say. Had she stayed in the crowd, she would have survived. OK, so it's just a movie, but I hope you get my point. Just because there were inhabited homes near where CJB was murdered means nothing. People can do really odd things at times, like ignoring the obvious, especially when their lives are in danger.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 02:17 am:

Ed, isn't that the movie you always take into the bathroom? Just wondering...

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 02:21 am:

Douglas and Scott: I'm 5'6" tall, and my wrists are about 7" in circumference (oh, no! Does that mean I'm a new Z-suspect???). On the other hand, I don't know how tall or heavy Billy the Kid was, but his wrists were so thick that he was able to easily slip handcuffs off and escape the law whenever he pleased. So it seems that height and weight have little to do with wrist circumference.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 02:31 am:

It's a slasher flick. You're thinking of those skin movies that I never watch... I don't have a TV in there anyway..

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 07:51 am:

7 inches is a skinny wrist. Trust me on this one. I was cursed with skinny wrists (7 inches) that are out of all proportion to the rest of my size. I can't wear a wristwatch with an expansion band, unless the band has been specially modified for me. I'm not suggesting that a big man can' have skinny wrists (although 7 inches would look really weird on someone Allen's size). I'm saying that Allen didn't have such wrists. Look at the swim team photo Tom has posted, or any other shot of Allen showing his wrists.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 08:05 am:

Douglas: Allen may or may not have had 7 inch wrists, but the point was that height and weight appear to have little to do with that factor. At about 7 inches, mine are certainly not skinny, but I suppose that depends on what they look like compared to the general build of the person.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 09:01 am:

Well, the bottom line is whether or not Allen had skinny wrists. Someone ought to be able to make some kind of reasonable determination on that one.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 09:14 am:

Think we could dig him up and measure his wrists?

(just kidding-folks)

By Bruce (Bruce_D) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 09:41 am:

This discussion cracks me up. I guess I'm a freak of nature also. Just the other day ,I did something I hadn't done in years. I had a guy who was 6'5" measure the lenght of his hands to mine and me being only 5'8"- of course his hands were longer-BUT THEN WE MEASURED JUST FINGERS AND NOW MINE WERE ABOUT 1/2" LONGER. So you see I'm still a freak of nature-A 58 YEAR OLD 5'8" WHITE MALE WHO CAN "STILL PALM A BASKETBALL."
Bruce D.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:36 pm:

The point (once again) isn't whether some people are freaks of nature. It's whether Allen had 7-inch wrists. Based on what I've seen of him, I'd say "no."

By Paul (Paul) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 03:10 pm:

is'nt it possible that the watch is a red herring?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

Anything's possible, but it's highly unlikely. You've got a tremendous struggle, obvious signs of the assailant's arm being deeply scratched, and a watch torn off at the top, exactly as one might expect in such a struggle.

Something to think about: how does a diminutive girl like Cheri Jo Bates manage to put up such a terrific fight against someone like Arthur Allen, who supposedly was capable of defeating multiple male adversaries in a fight?

By Spencer (Spencer) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 04:07 pm:

Douglas wrote:
"Something to think about: how does a diminutive girl like Cheri Jo Bates manage to put up such a terrific fight against someone like Arthur Allen, who supposedly was capable of defeating multiple male adversaries in a fight?"

The survival instinct in most people is pretty strong. It reminds me of the occasional occurrence of a strong swimmer trying to rescue someone and being pushed under the water and drowning at the hands of the smaller rescuee.


By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 04:49 pm:

Considering Allen was apparently full of Coors most of the time, I'm surprised he wasn't the one found laying in an alley.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 04:50 pm:

For those of you who own a copy of the Z video, just pop it in and take a look at the first segment in which Allen is being interviewed on camera. Look at his wrists. Tell me that he has seven-inch wrists. He does not. He's the kind of guy who would require an expansion band and fill it out quite nicely. He never wore the watch found at the crime scene in Riverside, and consequently he's not the killer of Cheri Bates, unless you subscribe to the planted evidence scenario.

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 05:18 pm:

Doug, Wouldn't being 25 yrs. older and having diabetes account for the chubbiness of ALA's wrists on the video? Classic

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 06:56 pm:

The narrator on the video stated that at the time of the interview Allen was 60 pounds lighter than he was at the time of the Zodiac events. You need to take a look for yourself. If you don't have the video, maybe now's the time to get a copy. There are other interesting things on the video as well, including a shot or two of yours truly. :-)

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 07:25 pm:

Doug, I have a copy. I didn't recall the remark about being 60 heavier. Is that correct though? Plenty of reporters have been wrong on this case about simple details. Classic

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 08:39 pm:

I don't think it really matters in this case. Allen was a fairly big guy all around. In his older years he certainly looked as if he had become "dumpy" in appearance, no doubt the result of his illness. But wrist girth has more to do with bone and tendon structure, I believe, as opposed to overall weight.

By Paul (Paul) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 09:01 pm:

enough about the friggin' wrists already.

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 11:51 pm:

Paul: I'm sorry. I forgot that we were talking to you. Classic

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 01:06 am:

Paul: You had me chucklin' with that remark!

Seriously though, if Classic doesn't mind my intervention here, I'd like to say a couple of things.

Although Doug is making some very good observations, I'm inclined to believe that we'll never know the circumference of ALA's wrists "beyond a reasonable doubt" without actually disinterring his body, unless a coroner examined his body and happened to make such a notation. However, it is doubtful that a coroner examined ALA's body, considering that he died of "natural causes." And why would a coroner make such a notation in the first place? Then again, some samples of ALA's DNA were apparently taken from his brain. I wonder who did that? Am I overlooking something here? I know that ALA's home was buzzing with police investigators the day of his death, and that many items were seized per the search warrant. Was ALA's body examined by a coroner commissioned by the police?


By Classic (Classic) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 01:55 am:

Scott, I don't mind constructive remarks at all. Actually, I was wondering about the dna sample myself. Does anyone know if an autopsy was performed on ALA after his death. I suspect that it might have been, because of his "notriety" Classic

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 02:15 am:

Wrong thread.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 07:35 am:

There's an even later section on the video that shows Allen sitting bare-chested talking to the interviewer. There's even less question about Allen's wrist size in that shot. The wrists are huge.

Very well, I've flogged this dead horse for all it's worth. If it doesn't get up and run I can't say I haven't tried.

By Paul (Paul) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 04:46 pm:

dude, you went beyond flogging a dead horse. you napalmed a friggin' dead horse. wrong thread indeed. ya jackass!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 08:20 pm:

Well, e.e. cummings, I don't mind being called a jackass by someone of your stature.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:25 pm:

Paul: Your previous post was amusing, but your last one was just downright rude. I'll bet your mamma is so sour that she has sourdough yeast . . .

I'll let you figure out the rest, ya f%@#$%' moron.

Douglas: Do you know this guy or something? Don't take crap from a shameless fool like that!

What thread did this used to be?


By Bruce (Bruce_D) ( - on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:35 pm:

Scott Bullock,
Of all the posters ,you seem like you have your act together the most. I like the way you present your arguments and defend them.
Anyway, what do you make out of these posts by Kenny Kilgore who says that his stepdad was or is Z. I'm one of the originals on the Board , and I've seen many too many claims ,especially in the beginning of the BOARD that ended up being bulls*#t
Bruce D.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 01:33 am:

Bruce D: Thanks for the kind words; I give your posts high marks as well.

As for Kenny Kilgore, let me put it this way: What could one possibly glean from a documentary that would make one suspect someone close to them was Z? I mean, heck, I've seen probably 95% of the documentaries about Zodiac, and not one of them indicates ANYTHING about Z that is personal enough to make someone suspect a particular individual. I could be wrong, but unless Kenny has the hood from LB, actual letters that were written in Z's handwriting but were never mailed, or some other piece of incriminating evidence, I have no choice but to categorize this guy as being completely nuts. I don't like to cast dispersions, but I just don't see how a documentary could strike a particular chord in someone when practically nothing is known about Z "the person" to begin with. He claims that his suspicions about his stepfather began only a year ago. Please! Seems rather suspicious to me.


By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 05:26 pm:

Douglas wrote:

Something to think about: how does a diminutive girl like Cheri Jo Bates manage to put up such a terrific fight against someone like Arthur Allen, who supposedly was capable of defeating multiple male adversaries in a fight?

I take it you're unaware of the feats of superhuman strength exhibited by some people under duress? People single-handedly lifting cars off of people, etc? Assuming that Allen (who apparently possessed extraordinary strength) was Z, then it's within the realm of possibility that CJB was possessed of superhuman strength while fighting to save her life.

Sylvie & Scott: Allen's body can't be disinterred for examination, he was cremated and his ashes scattered at sea near San Rafael.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 06:18 pm:

Ed, I've heard the stories of people lifting cars. I can't say I've ever heard that any of those stories were substantiated. Add to that the fact that the crime scene showed signs of a prolonged struggle--not a brief encounter in which a momentary burst of strength might have had some effect. There was a lot of tussling and motion going on, and if I'm not mistaken the coroner's report showed that Cheri had been kicked and dealt various blows. Allen, by all accounts, was big enough and powerful enough to have knocked her cold, right out of hand.

I saw an interesting police documentary a couple of weeks ago in which a rather well-made female cop tried to single-handedly arrest a large suspect at a routine traffic stop. The camera in the squad car was running, and it was rather disconcerting to see how easily the suspect put the female officer's lights right out, and even more disconcerting to see the photos of the kind of damage he did to her face. That's the kind of result I'd expect from an encounter between a very large man and a very small woman, especially when the woman's struggles and screams are threatening to expose him to the danger of capture.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:39 pm:

Doug: I saw the same documentary that you did. The perp in that case knocked the female police officer unconscious with a single blow to the face. However, if I remember correctly, she had no way of knowing that the man that she'd stopped was going to assault her. I assert that IF she'd known that she was in danger of being attacked, she would have been able to fend him off to a higher degree than she did. In other words, I believe that it is possible that CJB fought her attacker with more resolve than we might imagine.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:43 am:

Ed--Unfortunately for "Ms. Rambo" she did have a way of knowing that the man was likely to assault her. She came back from searching his car, yelling for him to put his hands up, at which point he backed off and began behaving in a very uncooperative, threatening manner. At that point she ought to have retreated, but she seems to have been a victim of the "women can do anything men can do" school of thought. (Fancy that--the average male police officer would probably have called for backup before searching the car, but that's another story.)

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 10:16 am:

Doug: Your right, I remember the documentary more vividly now. "Ms. Rambo" asked to search his vehicle, found a substantial amount of marijuana, attempted to 'cuff the perp before calling for backup, then WHACK!! She didn't even have her gun drawn. She's lucky that the perp didn't use her own gun to kill her. You couldn't help but feel sorry for the perp's young daughter who witnessed the whole thing. But your right, "Ms. Rambo's" own failure to apprehend the perp in a logical manner led to her eventual hospitalization. I still contend that this was substantially different from the CJB incident, though. It seems that CJB at least attempted to thwart her attacker "tooth and nail" before finally succumbing to him entirely.


By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

Douglas: you mean Scott, don't you?