The Library Annex Message Board: Possible Zodiac Victim Cheri Jo Bates: The Library Annex

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Saturday, October 20, 2001 - 01:03 pm:

Just looking at the photo posted by Tom of the Library Annex,it seems incredulous that CJB was in
this area studying and was not noticed by anyone there.It is a relatively small, confined area.
One wonders if in fact she was in there at all!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, October 20, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

Looking at the photo one is also impressed by how easy it would be for a stalker to keep an eye on her (or anyone else) at night.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Saturday, October 20, 2001 - 10:43 pm:

Also, the photo provides a glimpse at the desks. Might I assume that these are the type of desks in use at the time, such as the one with the mysterious inscription? Or was that desk from the main school library, and of another configuration?

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 07:48 am:

I think you got that from Graysmith.
Tom has said in earlier posts that in fact Cheri Jo was seen by others at the library that night.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 11:40 am:

Oddly, very few people who were in the library that night remembered seeing her.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 11:38 pm:

You are correct.It is further proof Cheri was 'stalked'; for the killer to even be there indicates he had to have followed her to the library that night.There may have been several such attempts in the past,but for various reasons it was the 'right time',in the perps view,to strike.
When one considers her decision to go to the library that evening it shows-to me - that he ,no doubt,followed her from her home to the library.Then while she was in the library he approached her car and sabotaged it(the same method the 'Berkeley man' used on two young girls'VW-see my posts)and then went to the library to wait for her to leave.
If Cheri saw him in the building it might have given him a further advantage (especially if they had ,in some manner, spoken before,that "brush offs" statement is suggestive )as she had seen him 'speaking to a blond girl'(witnesses saw a young man about 25 with brown hair and a beard talking to a young lady-these two did not show for Cross' reenactment).
If the '65-'66 bronze Olds that was "closely" following Bates as she drove to the library was the killer then it shows she was followed.

The "old '47-'52 oxidized tan-gray Studebaker" (that was seen parked on Riverside Dr.)could have been used later as the killer could have seen the Air Force man viewing him that afternoon in the Olds.All FYI.
For those that are new please see the Bates posts-especially since the anniversery of this brave young womans death is approaching.She boldly fought her attacker.It is also a tragedy that her late father and thus far,her brother,did not see the killer brought to justice.I was glad to see Toms updates on her case.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 09:09 am:

If Tom has been more specific,other than to say that CJB was seen "at the library" then I have indeed missed it.However this picture of the Annex does raise a lot more questions in my mind or a least prompts me to have a rethink
in terms of what actually occurred that night.
Douglas does make a good point,it's something I have often wondered about,mostly in terms of this being committed by a stranger.Does the killer actually follow CJB into the library or wait in the shadows outside.It seems to me,if he did follow her in and she was in the Annex he would have had to be in there also.It's a small well lit area and constitutes a big gamble on his part,in terms of being recognized.Especially when we can now see she would have been clearly visible from outside.
Given Tom's quote on how very few people actually seen CJ,it also suggests to me that she left the annex before closing time.I can only assume that people had there heads buried in their books.
This would also tie in with the confession letter
where it was stated that the killer waited and followed her out.Again one would assume this would be before closing time,as the killer would have to take into account others coming out at the same time and groups heading for their cars.
It again highlights this person who did not show for the reconstruction.Presumably everybody else in that area would have been interviewed within a short period of time and cleared.In fact,if the killer did follow her into the Annex who else could it be?
A long shot,I know,but I wonder if any of the books in her car contained a bookmark

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 09:36 am:

It is curious, I know. I used to wonder if she was even there, but if even a few people saw her, well then, she was there. As I understand it, she had a big paper to finish, and I remember when I was in college (social butterfly, though I was), when I had something due, I'd go to the library and purposely speak to noone.
Howard, the other possibility is that the killer lived nearby, saw the car he knew was Cheri's near the library, entered the library where he determined that she was alone and did his thing.
Let's face it , the fact that she left her books in her car and the window rolled down is very important. No struggle at the car, no scream.
One gets the impression it happened EXACTLY as the confession note said it did, and thus was someone she knew by sight (probably had "brushed off"), felt no fear of, chatted with and chatted with for a while.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 08:40 pm:

Another possibility is that he possessed a fake badge or credential that indicated he was an MP at the local March AF base.He had on those shiny military dress shoes(the same kind Johns told me she saw on the driver that abducted her).
Another possibility was that he showed her a law enforcement badge and may have mentioned he was an off duty officer taking classes at RCC.
Johns told me that her abductor was acting helpful and concerned and did not in any way seem as though he would harm her.He even smiled and kindly offered her a ride so she could get her car repaired.
Lets face it ,Cheri was pretty much at his mercy as it was late and her car would not start and this 'kind' gentleman was offering her a "lift" as the letter stated.
She,like Johns took the offer, but with two very different outcomes.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) ( - on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 06:09 pm:

I wonder if Cheri's bibliography was ever found. Maybe someone took it to make sure she would go back to the library.

That may have been important to the Zodiac's plan. If he had access to it.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 12:57 am:

Cheris old girlfriend said that she went,at times,to the library like everyone else and at night also.The trip that night,which her friend declined,was mainly to get in some study and check out some books which were found on her car seat.This shows that she had every intention on returning to her car later.

All indications are that the killer chose this night based on ,at least to him,what were all the right conditions and circumstances"to make her pay "for those past 'rebuffs' he had experienced.

I do wonder if Cheris friend would have gone with her that night if that would have somehow saved her life in relation to any future attacks.I doubt it -that '66 letter showed that he had patience and determination and waited for the right time."Just wait till next time" the rh poem said."It's about's time for you to die"(kind of echoes Johns' account of the drivers words to her!)he told Cheri in that dark alley.

Since this is close to the anniversary of the attack on CJB we should check out all the past posts on this mysterious (almost)Halloween murder.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) ( - on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:18 am:

Consider too, that November 1st is "All Saints Day." (Catholic) Many of California's cities are named after saints.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 09:15 am:

I fully believe that Zodiac wanted Cheri to be a Halloween murder. But as the opportunity presented itself on the 30th, he prolonged his time with Cheri Jo as long as possible. How he got her to talk with him for 90 minutes, I'll never know, one of the great mysteries of her murder.
If you went by N.Y. time, it actually was already Halloween.
The watch, interestingly was on Halloween time, I still believe that he may have fixed it to that time.
Time, always a Zodiac theme. It was about Time.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 12:36 pm:

Yes,and the old one month to the day writing/posting(article was 10/1/67)is here too. I will post on my Zodiac site all of the Z/killer (either way Z or no)elements I have found in that so called small typed note by HautZ.See my posts on Zonta International.FYI

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 01:13 pm:

One thing about the time factor.Remember,the car showed evidence of work being done on it ,that is ,there were greasy hand prints,etc.on certain ares of the VW.
I don't believe the perp just walked up and said 'lets go I have a ride for you".I think it was more like the Johns incident where the perp 'worked' on the wheel.I think that to deceive and yet, show complete sincerity, he 'worked 'on her car attempting to start it and 'adjust' it as did the Berkeley(see posts on that interesting event)guy with the two girls' VW(they probably protested the work -just kidding!).

Not too long ago a friend came over to do some minor repairs on my car.We talked as he worked and I was amazed to find that it had taken over an hour for those 'simple' repairs!Might not this have been the case that night?We don't know HOW LONG he had her in the alley.Add the struggle and there is enough time and by 10:30 PM, if that was an accurate estimate by local/s, we know she screamed during the fight.She probably was killed around this time.

If we read the '66 letter he mentions feeling her,etc.Since he had her at his mercy he could have made several angry irrational remarks to her and then she began to struggle later when he began choking her.It had built up over a period of time and ,no doubt ,he reminded her of her past slights and what he thought about her,etc.

This is not unlike other cases where the perp confesses -or after a physical and/or verbal assault- which took several minutes,they escaped only to tell investigators about their harrowing experience.Time 'burns' when you are engaged in activity(his Riverside "activity").

That typed letter was only a brief summary,but it does show the latter Zodiac's penchant for detail (when we don't necessarily need to know them!-this could be cingulate gyrus brain malfunction or obsessive/compulsiveness-see Dr.Amends books; Z definitely had the "ring of fire ADD' that Amend discovered))I have had many conversations that lasted 90 or more minutes.Time can fly when yer havin' fun like this killer!

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) ( - on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 01:59 pm:

I agree that he probably worked on her car for a while to make it look more authentic, then I can imagine him saying something like it would need a certain tool that he had in his car, if not he could give her a lift (which is why she left her window down and books in the car -- thought she'd be right back).
The time frame of 10:30 seems quite accurate as it was agreed upon by several (hearing) witnesses, but (as in the O.J. case) it may have been a bit earlier.
I am also sure, like he says, he'd had some contact with her before, superficial though it may have been. She was a cheerleader, I believe both at RCC and Ramona. It is very common for those that live in the area to attend the football games even if they do not attend the school. Cheri Jo obviously spent alot of time on Magnolia (a big blvd. that traverses Riverside and is home to RCC and Ramona), if someone lived on or near Magnolia, say at the Y, he would have seen her car go by frequently.
Whoever it was, I am sure she'd seen his face before. She had ample time to get away or make noise by her car if she had felt threatened at all. I think she thought of this guy as a harmless dork.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:42 pm:

Just scanning the Inside Detective article again I found some items of interest.A Mexican -American that knew Cheri told police that he saw her "writing something with a ball point her blue spiral note book...He was at the library at 5:30 PM waiting for the library to open at 6:00 PM...It was then he saw the girl [or Cheri]...other students who were acquainted with Cheri Jo said they were in the library between 6:30 PM-and did not see the girl during that time."A male librarian "thought he saw" Cheri in the library but he could not pinpoint the time.

If this is true then it could explain why some students that knew Cheri didn't see her in the library that night-the few that did know her, were only there for a short time or between 6:30 PM and 6:40 PM or so.She could have stepped out at this point to use the restroom or gone back out to her car for something.Just a thought as this could explain a mystery.

A young woman that lived very near where Cheri was murdered said she "heard yelling and screaming" about 10:30 PM.Then she heard a "muted scream"and then about two minutes later she heard an old car[Studebaker?] start up .Why she didn't call the police is beyond me.I realize from articles I have read that screams,etc. were sometimes heard in this area and no murders were reported later, so it may have been someone that was 'drunk or some frat' prank' was being experienced.She must have thought about this situation long and hard after learning about the murder.

The "yelling"is what causes me to wonder.Was this Cheri and her killer exchanging words as I speculated in the past and did this inflame the deranged attacker even more thus accounting for the numerous lacerations and deeply cut throat.The area where they fought was "so churned up it looked like a tractor had been over the ground...the girl put up a terrific struggle" said a detective.Cheri, no doubt, "scratched and clawed" his face(this is a man that isn't going to show up for work for a while-if he even had a job at this time!).Her struggle was further evidence to this sick individual that she was continuing the 'rejection'("brush offs"i.e. rejection!) he was later to mention in his letter.

The horrific damage(see done to Cheri was no proof that it was someone that knew her and was angry over their relationship problems!.Enough for now.

By Eduard (Eduard) ( - on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 06:29 am:


And what about the guy that was missing from the police reanactment. The police had everyone who was at the library during Bates death coming back to the library for this.
Everyone appeared exept for one guy people could remember. This guy was described as an older guy wearing a beard. The police was in search of this guy as seen in the local newspaper.
Who was this guy, and why did he never reacted on the question of the police to show up?

Howard, the newspaper article about this was on the CDROM I have sent you...


P.S. Not wanting to change the subject, sorry if I did.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 02:53 pm:

I have mentioned the two no shows at the library enactment several times.He was about 25,with brown hair,heavyset and wore a beard.He was seen talking to a young blonde female.Both of these individuals were never seen again.

An old Studebaker '47-52 was seen parked on Riverside Drive and some believe,as I do, that this car was the "old car" that was heard starting up some two minutes after the last known scream by Cheri Bates ,which was around 10:30 PM.I believe the car belonged to the young man seen in the library.The car never showed up either,in spite of dozens of reports!

I was reading the Inside Detective article as it has a few bits of information not found in other newspaper articles.