Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Possible Zodiac Victim Cheri Jo Bates: Bates confession letter, phone call

The Bates confession letter of 11-66 that was sent to the Press-Enterprise newspaper and the "chief of police" has perplexed me for some time, especially:

"This letter should be published for all to read it" followed by "Yes I did make that call to you also."

Both confession letters are cc'd CHIEF OF POLICE.
That tells me they were written more for the benefit of the newspaper than the police. Plus, right before the line about the call, the author asks that the letter be published. Obviously, he was referring to the newspaper.

When the Riverside Police Department deny receiving a call from anyone claiming to be the Bates killer, I believe them.
Regardless of whether he killed Bates, I now believe the call was made to the newspaper by a fledgling Zodiac, not quite evolved enough (or sure enough of himself) to call the police directly.

I agree completely. The Bates murder could have had a significant impact on a fledgling zodiac. He could of been fantasying about killing people and then somebody in his neighborhood, someone he might even have known is murdered. Maybe he had fantasied about killing Ms Bates and wished he was the perpetrator. He then writes the letters taunting the police, in his mind he commited the crime. This might have gone a long way towards zodiac acting out his fantasies. What is your opinion on the desk top poem? Do you think Zodiac wrote it?

Scott wrote. . ."what is your opinion of the desk-top poem? Do you think Zodiac wrote it?"

I mentioned in a post a couple of months ago that I do not know who wrote the poem but I do NOT believe it describes a murder. It clearly describes a failed suicide attempt. I will stand on this analysis anytime. I don't want to elaborate further here but will gladly respond to any e-mails.

The desk top poem ,according to the top authority on Zodiacs handwriting, Sherwood Morrill,was in the same hand that wrote the 66/7;69-70 letters purporting to be from the killer known as the Zodiac. Of course, the writer of the Riverside communications 66/7' was not known as the Zodiac,this was a later development.A point of interest concerning the position of the desk top poem was given to me by the photographer that took the Bates photos in 1966. This man told me that the poem was not on the desk top,but underneath the top and he had to lay down to take that picture of the poem! I'm only relating what he told me! I spent some time interviewing him and he persisted in making the aforementioned claim. I wasn't there so I can only relate his account of that photographic session.According to my friend and Z expert Dave Peterson,the desk had been in a music room.The poem was a crude ballad/poem. Peterson points out, the circle and cross of Z can depict the coda found on music scores.A coda "is a concluding musical section that is formally distinct from the main structure".It literally means "tail."My suspect was a musician and played instruments-just FYI stuff.He wrote songs also. A point of interest is the fact Zodiac gave a rendition of the Mikado, so there seems to be some interest in plays/operas/songs,etc. FYI-Manson ,a member of the prison drama club, was in the Mikado while in prison in the 60s. He was released march 67' and then went to S.F. and met Bruce Davis and they became close friends.

Another point of interest, Howard: Cecelia Ann Shepard was transferring to Riverside to study music, and had returned to the Napa Valley and PUC on 9-27-1969, the very day Z would later attack her and Hartnell, just to pack the few things she had left behind the previous semester.

Howard, do you see any connection between Zodiac's
"blue meanies" reference and Manson's "Helter Skelter" thing, or are these allusions to the Beatles in both cases just coincidence?

Anonymous,of course! This is one of the points in my Z book.The song was The March Of The Meanies, and in this case , this Z communication was sent March 13-Ron Hubbards b-day. Since Davis was so much into Scientology (since 66'),I knew Scientology Founder Ron Hubbards b-day was probably a Z letter date(you would/could become one with him!).Like when I first went through Zs letter dates I knew I would find my suspects b-day 10/5 -Zs post card !;as it says in a Beatles song Just The Two Of Us Sending Letters and Post Cards!The term was used in the 4/20/70 Z missive also.April 20 was Davis'/ Manson's idol Adolph Hitlers b-day.Young people in England would sometimes refer to the bobbies as the Blue (a Z color-he wrote with blue felt tip pen,except on the Hartnell car door where it was in black) Meannies. As Jake shows on his site :This is the Zodiac Speaking,some bobbies drove a Ford that was called the "Zodiac"and the hood ornanment was somewhat of a circle with a cross !Bruce Davis ,my suspect,had visited England at least 3 times and loved the country. LAPD believe that he killed at least one person there.Manson/Davis believed the Beatles were "inspired" and that they, in their songs ,were giving them "instructions" to start the Revolution and that society had to be "programmed subliminally" using the media ,to get the public "wired up for gore". They were to go out and "kill white people" and this would infuriate the whites who would "think blacks did it" and the whites would retailate ,thus,eventually bringing on a war involving all segments of society.I see Zs letters in a different light than most and I don't blame anyone for not seeing my reasons. I would hope they would read my book ,but only if they had some info on the case ,or are into true crime.I have gotten some great tips !When Z tells the papers to 'make sure they print the bomb diagram on the front page'or he will go out and kill; I see this as "intructions to the tuned in " M/D spoke of, that" needed instructions "to bomb ,shoot(like the informative pen light remarks Z made)codes (Manson was into ciphers and one associate had been with Naval Intellengce-he had a thing for one of the girls ;to the TOP three n. CA. papers for PUBLICITY and a "message" killing is 'fun its better than sex'-an old Manson saying to get his people into murder ,etc.One Manson girl that helped kill Ms. Tate said "it was better than a climax",something she heard M say over and over.My site is www.Zodiacmurders.com.I will be putting info up soon.Several authorities, including Z expert Dave Peterson ,believed Manson was connected to the Z murders-as was my pristine source-he was emphatic!

Thanks for the info, Howard. I'm looking forward to checking out the book.

The evidence presented on this site under the Cheri jo /DNA section ,against "Bob Barnett", though circumstantial, seems pretty compelling when taken at face value. I would find it easy to believe given most of the circumstances that "Bob" killed her in a fit of rage.However for this theory to"sit right"with me at least, it would have to have been just that, an impulsive act on Barnett's part during the course of an arguement.If he did kill Cheri jo,I do not get for one, the apparent premeditation ie tampering with the car.According to the report Barnett got a call from Cherry jo to say she was at the library while he was football training.
Did he decide to kill her on the way there?
also if you believe it was him, wasn,t he seen at 9.30 waiting outside the Library "a few minutes before she was killed"(Admittedly this was not a positive identification) but the person there did exchange acknowledgement with a passer by,Could that person be sure they were not recognised?.Whoever that person was it is likely it was the killer.Again I have not heard what Barnett's alibi was for that night,(I,d like to if anyone knows) but if he was guilty I find it amazing that he did not "crack" in the face of overwhelming circumstantial evidence.
Another point on this issue,Tom refers to a "fledgeling Zodiac" which I agree with.This in my opinion, would make Zodiac, at this point:-
1.Someone unknown probably of 25 years or over(if he was the killer).
2.A friend or associate of "Bob Barnett's".
3.A cop.

According to Tom's Anonymous source:-
"The evening Bates was killed,Barnett was playing basketball with buddies.Bates called him for reasons unknown and Barnett immediately left the game,saying "That bitc& is going to the library".
Now, JUST FOR ARGUMENT SAKE,if the above is true,
planning a murder thereafter ,I think even Barnett would realize, would leave witnesses to his opportunity and possible motive, but he still goes ahead with a premeditated murder which becomes premeditated because he interferes with the car.
We have two different things here,anger leaving the basketball game and the rage evident in the murder coupled with the thoughtful planning and stalking.If Barnett killed Bates, on any level why would he interfere with the car?
Next,I do not think anyone believes Barnett was or could be Zodiac, so apart from Barnett giving a detailed account of his crime or Zodiac being privy to details of the police investigation how could Zodiac come up with the details in the letters.
1.The interference with the car.
2.the broken knife
3. the fact that Bates was kicked in the head.
Would anyone care to discuss the above or point out the errors in my argument?.

Giddyup!

I agree with you Lapumo. Premeditated or spur of the moment crime of passion.

She was kicked in the head as some other possible Z suspects were listed as having. Somebody had to have a bloody shoe somewhere, also it must have left imprints, right?

If "Barnett" was in fact the perp, then disabling her car may not have had anything to do with her murder, at least, not at first. Perhaps it was done as a pretext for giving her a ride home, and on the way, he could argue with her about their breakup or whatever. But they stayed at the college, and their discussion may have gone on for 90 or more minutes after she left the library, and he became increasingly angry and finally lost control and killed her. Thus, her murder would not have been strictly premeditated since he may have only gone there to talk. Anyway, that's just an idea...

I agree. That would also explain the lack of a more effective murder weapon.

Appreciate the response, and Iam not been dismissive, but are we comparing apples and oranges here? The interference with the car is compatible with the idea of a stalker ready to kill, but IMVHO would be a very over elaborate scheme for a college student to use it for the purpose you suggest, especially when it appears that Cheri Jo actually phoned "Barnett" and let him know where she would be.
Another problem,Why if she left under the pretext of getting a ride home did she leave her books in the car? There's alot more I would like to discuss on this , but I rushing now.
Is "Barnett's" alibi known?
Are there witnesses who seen Cheri jo leaving the library?
Tom, I believe the typewriter used to send the Bates letter was identified, was it ever compared with the Patricia Hautz letter?

I don't know who might have the original of the Hautz letter, but the odds are it wasn't compared to the confession.

I would think that "Barnett" walked her to her car, she got in, books and all, and it magically wouldn't start, so they continued their discussion and walked back to his car perhaps to get some tools to "fix" it. Why didn't she stay at her car? She was afraid of the dark, and she probably felt safe and trusting enough at that time to be with her ex. Had he intended to kill her from the outset and been verbally or physically abusive, she would not have gone with him anywhere if she had any sense at all, but rather would have returned to the library where it was safe. Anyway, just to carry that idea further...

Ed,
In bringing up this whole discussion I wanted to bring together a couple of discussions elsewhere on this board in relation to this event.
I believe Zodiac is here somewhere, whether he is the murderer and letter writer or just the letter writer, it's most likely his beginining,so mabye this is the place where we may get closest to him or where he made a mistake.
The starting point,would be to look at the murder "Barnett "or Zodiac.I am not long on the board ,but I get the impression that the general concensus was that Zodiac was the killer until the issue of overkill was raised also the circumstantial against "Barnett" is fairly persuasive.I stand to be corrected of course.
On the issue of overkill, it is a pointer to a murderer and victim who are "involved" or know each other. Jake even asks M.kelleher if he feels vindicated by his prediction that Zodiac was not the killer when we learn of the 42 stab wounds.But as was pointed out elswhere Sexual sadism and Overkill go hand in hand as indeed does the killer spending alot of time with the victim. So, where back to the question Barnett or Zodiac. Like Ive already said the circumstantial evidence against Barnett is pretty persuasive.However there are a couple of points I must make.In my opinion if Barnett was the killer then it would be a spontaneous rage killing.But for one the ruse with the car throws me, yes Ive heard other ideas on why he may have done this,bit I still think it's very over elaborate in the circumstances. No,Iam not saying impossible
but I think mabye were comparing apples and oranges, as a ruse for a murderer yes as a ruse as otherwise no.The second thing and most important reason I have against Barnett is the overkill.This wasn't just overkill this was ABSOLUTE SLAUGHTER, pure insanity,this guy MUST have a history.If it were Barnett he would have to be in absolute panic, because even at this stage the evidence is against him.But a few hours later he's at a reatuarant??.
SH&t, caught for time again,I'll have to leave it here for now.ANY COMMENTS.

Tom,
Do we know when exactly the desktop message was written or best estimate. Thanks.

Lapumo: it was generally believed that Z was CJB's killer, at least as far as the public was concerned. It seems that law enforcement didn't believe it (I remember when Ken Narlow incredulously asked someone last year if he believed that. His demeanor indicated that it was far from fact), although as early as October 1969, RPD had sent a memo to NSD suggesting a possible link.

In any case, if "Barnett" were the perp, then it certainly seems to have been a spur-of-the-moment thing. The killer was not a sexual sadist, because these sick types of killers use murder as their form of sex, and they tend to spend much time with their victims, torturing etc them. This did not occur with CJB. Since she was stabbed 42 times and nearly decapitated, but there were no other forms of extreme sexual torture that is characteristic of sexual sadism (that I am aware of anyway), this would indicate that the killer exploded with anger, and took it out on her all at once. One does not kill with rage and stab their victim once every two minutes over a period of ninety minutes. Thus, we may assume that she was killed at the end of the time she spent with her killer.

Since the library closed at 9 PM, and she was killed between 10:15 and 10:45, probably around 10:30 (based on the time that two witnesses heard a scream), it would seem that she was with her killer in conversation for at least an hour and a half. This is not the what a sexual sadist does with his victim when he spends time with her. So what happened?

This is why I opined that the suspect disabled her car on the pretext of giving her a ride home to talk about their breakup; pulling a wire isn't overly elaborate, but something that a disturbed man might do to keep someone in a place where he had some control. They ended up talking in the parking lot for an hour and a half instead, which served the same purpose, because were her car not disabled, she would have gone home and he would not have been able to spend that time with her.

I don't think his intent was murder, but that's how it ended up. Rage killings aren't always premeditated (how does one plan to be in a rage to start killing???). Quite the contrary, since they apparently conversed for an hour and a half indicates that he became enraged at the end, not at the beginning. If it was "Barnett," then yes, he was mad, but not mad enough for murder. Had he intended to kill her, he would not have bothered with the car, and he would have brought a weapon appropriate to the task at hand, which he did not (he used a small-bladed knife, whereas Z used a long knife of some sort at Lake B), and he would have attacked her as soon as he saw her, not an hour and a half later.

Ed,
Just to let you know where my thinking came from;
CJB is stabbed 42 times ,almost decapitated,and kicked in the head.I mentioned sexual sadism because one of the characteristics expected to be found is overkill especially attacks on areas associated with sex.Now, I do not know where she was stabbed exactly,do you?.
Secondly,if your to go by the witness who heard the scream I think the whole statement was"that a scream was heard approx. 10.30 followed approx 2 minutes later by the sound of an old car starting up.Which one would assume was the killer.But I think it's safe to say that this attack took longer than that.Why I asked myself only one scream ? If this is Barnett it's more than likely the assault started with a physical attack, you would imagine there would be more screaming. What if Bates was "coming around " from an earlier assualt.Other evidence stated might also bring the time period down. A witness puts "someone in the shadows" at 9.30,the library closes at 9, one could assume if this was Barnett that at least another 15 minutes or more could have elapsed before the two arrived where the did!
If there's a link with the desktop writing it may also point to someone other than Barnett.
Other things to consider in relation to Barnett being the killer.
1.Was there anything to show previously that he was capable of this.
2. His demeanor after the crime.
3. His age at the time(which I do not know).
4. How did the letter writer get his information
If Barnett was not suspected on the evidence at the time,specifically that the perp would most likely be someone known to the victim, it seems absurd that the would only focus on this after a tip-off about him 4 years later.

I still think we should entertain the possibility that the Bates attack was originally intended as a rape.

Douglas,
It's quiet possible and makes alot of sense. Looking at the photographs of the crime scene it does look like some kind of cul-de -sac.(I could be wrong).I was always under the impression this was some kind of thru- walkway or shortcut. It gives more substance to the "interference with the car" also it could explain what has been described as an "inadequate weapon for murder".The original idea perhaps was to use it just to threathen.It definitely paints a clearer picture for me at least. I do not think talking was on this guy's mind from the start.

Enjoy the weekend.

Actually, it was not in a cul-de-sac where her body was found; rather, it was in a driveway between 3680 and 3692 Terracina, both of which were empty. In fact, there were six empty houses along Terracina between Riverside Drive and Magnolia, and there was also an alley between Terracina and Fairfax, the next street to the southwest. Presumably, the alley paralleled Terracina and Fairfax, between the houses on either street.

Interestingly enough, by November 10th, 1966, mercury vapor lights had been installed in the alley, ahead of schedule. The school board accepted bids on the 15th for the destruction of those empty houses to build a parking lot--too little, too late, for Cheri Jo. As far as I can tell from my recent visit to Riverside, the spot where she was murdered is now the parking lot right in front of the A.G. Paul quadrangle (I believe that's what it's called) between Terracina and Fairfax. It's a somewhat ignominious memorial to her memory.

I also found this interesting quote from The Daily Enterprise, "Mercury vapor lights now illuminate scene where Cheri Bates was killed" (11-11-1966, p. B-1):

Friends of the girl have told police that she had a deep fear of darkness. Because of this, police theorize the girl would not go into a dark driveway--unless she was forced to do so or was with someone she knew and trusted. (italics mine)

It certainly doesn't seem that she was forced into the driveway, at least not immediately, because she apparently spent some 90 minutes in the dark, presumably talking with her killer. So, it sounds like the perp may have been someone she knew and trusted, just as the police theorized.

Ed,
Again,for argument sake,let's go with Barnett and bring it to the next step. How do we propose the letter writer got his information,I assume as with all murder cases evidence was held back. It's hard to believe this information was just out there.Iam also confused Ed about the desktop writing and when exactly it was done.It's not clear (to me)if this was done long before,just before or after the murder.Can you help?
This again may help to give a clearer picture.

Enjoy the weekend.

As far as the information found in the "confession" letter, it was said (as I recall) by detectives that most of the information was already public knowledge (ie, reported in the paper), and the rest might have been correctly guessed by the author, but they did not say what was what. So even back in 1966, it seems that they doubted that it was in fact written by the killer.

As far as the desktop poem goes, it was found in storage some months after the murder, and was allegedly in the library the night of the murder. But then again, so what? It could have been written at any time up to the day of its discovery, and might have even been there for years. Someone (I don't recall who) observed some months back that the poem actually sounds more like someone talking about a failed suicide and not a murder. But it was assumed to have something to do with CJB, and so was included as evidence.

The initial FBI report of 12/1/66, states

On 11/30/66 [redacted] Riverside Police Department, advised that they had searched the news releases that had been made and none of the mentioned that the "middle wire of the distributor" had been removed from Miss BATES' car. He advised that other points in the letter, such as the details of the manner of the murder and the call to the police department, made it appear that the writer of this letter is actually the murderer.

This tends to confirm the telephone call to the police that was mentioned in the confession letter, making it highly likely that the author of that letter was indeed Bates's murderer.

No call was received by RPD.
However, in the context of the confession, it appears as if the call had been placed to the newspaper. .

Well, if no call was placed to the RPD, why does the FBI, on December 1, 1966, state that they were told by someone at RPD that a call was made? Tom, do you have any documentation to back up this assertion? Or do we simply, once again, take your word for it?

There's no need to take my word for it, Doug.
(After all, I am a world-renowned liar.)
All you need to do in order to cooberate my statement is to take the initiative as I did, and call Irv Cross, Dave Bonine, Harry Homsher, Bud Kelly and Steve Shumway.
Since all five were adamant about no call being made, and since there is no documentation anywhere of a call being made, that tells me no call was made.
(The FBI report you referred to doesn't confirm a call was made, it assumes that a call was made. There is also no proof that the knife broke, in fact RPD is adamant that the knife did NOT break.)

Tom, you'd have a lot more credibility if you cited your sources along with your assertions, rather than waiting until someone has requested them. In Dr. Zodiac Rusconi and I placed our sources in footnotes, and it never occurred to us that we might save a little effort by simply suggesting to our readers that they corroborate those details themselves.

That said, whatever Irv Cross, Dave Bonine, Harry Homsher, Bud Kelly and Steve Shumway may have told you conflicts with the information in the FBI report, which stated that someone at RPD pointedly advised them that "other points in the letter, such as the details of the manner of the murder and the call to the police department, made it appear that the writer of this letter is actually the murderer." That's not an assumption. It's a recapitulation of a statement that was made by RPD in their quest for FBI assistance.

I'm prepared to believe that RPD lied to the FBI in order to get them involved in the case, but it doesn't do a lot for my faith in law enforcement, especially since, according to your sources, a lot of people at SFPD were committing criminal acts such as fabrication of evidence. But I'm not so naive as to think it impossible.

Doug, many of the people I deal with do not want their names published. Since this is a private message board, I made an exception in my last post.

Ed wrote:-According to detectives the information in the confession letter was public knowledge,the rest could have been guessed at.
1. MIDDLE WIRE PULLED FROM DISTRIBUTOR
I would find it hard to believe this type of information was generally available at the time.Surely something like this would be routinely witheld.Douglas seems to confirm this in his post.

2. WITH A SMALL KNIFE AT HER THROAT
Yes she was stabbed but would the fact that it was a small knife be divulged?

3. SHE LET OUT A SCREAM ONCE AND I KICKED HER IN THE HEAD
I think there was only ONE scream heard that night?.I could imagine also the papers carrying the story about Cheri being beaten and stabbed but again the specific Kick to the head when she screamed points to someone who might have known what went on.

4. THE BROKEN KNIFE.
I would have assumed this was a "given" until I read Tom's post.However it is significant either way.The object of the exercise for the letter writer if he was not the killer would be to claim credit for it and convince police.If the knife was did not break it seems peculiar he would include this.Another possibility maybe the handle of the knife broke!

5. I GRABBED HER AROUND THE NECK WITH ONE HAND OVER HER MOUTH AND THE OTHER HOLDING A SMALL KNIFE TO HER THROAT.
While this is something that may have been guessed at,it does make sense with what we know did happen.I also wanted to bring it up with reference to the Barnett questioning.
The killer grabs her from behind in the manner described above.The natural reaction for the victim- to put her hands to grab the hand that the killer has around her and covering her mouth.
she pulls? she scratches? she tears the watch from his hand?.It's not certain but it fits.
TOM'S REPORT ON THIS CASE STATES THAT BARNETT WAS INTERVIEWED EARLY ON SINCE THE POLICE HAD DEDUCED THAT THE KILLER MAY HAVE BEEN KNOWN THE CHERI.As a boyfriend or ex-boyfriend he must have been high on their list of people they would have wanted to speak to.
QUESTIONS:- CAN YOU ACCOUNT FOR YOUR WHEREABOUTS?
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SEEN/SPOKE TO CHERI?
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS WATCH ?

Obviously he must have been pretty convincing at this stage. Scratches on his face???-No?!.Scratches or bruising on his arm or wrist???-No?!
So where back with our discussion,If Barnett did do it HOW DID THE KILLER GET HIS INFORMATION?
Did Barnett give someone the details?
Was it someone close to the investigation?

IF,however this was Zodiac,or someone else,Ed,the desktop writing would have to be looked at and included or eliminated.The police thought it significant.The guy who suggested it pertained to suicide did not back that claim up.
Your still probably looking at someone with ties to riverside and even to the college and even someone who may be familiar with CJB.
I WAITED FOR HER IN THE LIBRARY
Does the writing compare to Zodiac's?
If it was done prior to the murder was it someone attending school,someone who got the "brush-off"?
If it was done on the night was there purpose to it in relation to what happened later? Was it the killer passing time in his own disturbed way? If it was after the killing, was it a clue???

Lapumo wrote:

Ed wrote:-According to detectives the information in the confession letter was public knowledge,the rest could have been guessed at. (italics mine)
1. MIDDLE WIRE PULLED FROM DISTRIBUTOR
I would find it hard to believe this type of information was generally available at the time.Surely something like this would be routinely witheld.Douglas seems to confirm this in his post.

Actually, I did not write what I italicized in your paraphrase, I wrote:

As far as the information found in the "confession" letter, it was said (as I recall) by detectives that most (italics mine) of the information was already public knowledge (ie, reported in the paper), and the rest might have been correctly guessed by the author, but they did not say what was what.

By leaving out that most critical word "most," you completely changed the meaning of my words, which you did not quote directly but rather paraphrased. I was referring to detective sergeant Leroy Gren's comments in "After six months coed's murder remains puzzle to detectives" (The Daily Enterprise, 4-30-1967, p. B-4):

"There were a couple of things in the letter that were not mentioned in newspaper accounts," Sgt. Gren said, "but of course, it is possible that the writer simply guessed right." (italics mine)

Gren did not point out which things in the letter he was referring to.

This statement of his certainly expresses doubt that the author was the killer, however, to be fair, the same story also stated earlier:

Though the letter has turned up nothing in the way of evidence, (italics mine) police have not discounted it.

So, even though the letter was not discounted, it supplied no evidence (presumably regarding authorship) and its claimed authorship was in doubt.

How much more clear can I make it???

I do agree that the killer almost certainly had some sort of ties to Riverside, the college, and CJB. But it is far from certain that the killer and the author of the "confession letter" are in fact one and the same.

Howard, I kinda hate to admit it but the more I read your theories the more they make sense to me.
I really believe that when and if these cases are solved NONE of the Usual Suspects will be the culprit, but your reasoning and theories are very well thought out and I am now open to your ideas and appreciate your posts. Every theory into the identity of the killer has to explain the bizzare Mikado connection and yours is as good as I have seen. Also, after reading "Helter Skelter", I know that the authorities felt that the Manson crew had more murders to their credit than were proven (I believe even one of the Manson attournys was a victim of an unsolved death, suspected to be at the hands of the Manson family).

Ed,
I accept I misquoted you in relation to what the detectives had to say about the confession letter.
It was just laziness on my part,which is why I
paraphrased.I must also admit in relation to the
"guessing" that I thought it was your own opinion.
I apologize.
You also wrote:-Are you stupid or what!,do I have to tattoo everything on your forehead before you understand..Oops!,sorry I paraphrased again.
What you actually wrote was:-"How much more clear can I make it???" Well,Ed,not very clear and it may be because you misunderstand me.I opened this discussion for reasons stated previously,initially to talk about this in a hypothetical/for argument sake type of way.I do not have any problem stating my position.ZODIAC IS HERE SOMEWHERE.As to who killed CJB, I do not know, but I do have my own suspicions or at least questions.Given the information posted by Tom:-Barnett looks good.
However I have reservations, which I have outlined
The flip side of this coin is that Zodiac or other is responsible for the murder of CJB.I do not put this forward as a belief,as yet anyway,but
as part of the overall discussion.
Again,paramount to these discussions is the amount of detail or lack of detail contained in the "confession letter".NOW,at this stage and for the last three posts I have raised this issue,to be confronted only with and I quote"As far as the information found in the "confession letter"it was said by detectives that most of the information was already public knowledge(ie reported in the paper)and the rest may have been correctly guessed by the author,but they did not say what was what".What I was really looking for was the thoughts of the people on this board.IF,and I say IF the details I have outlined in my previous post were common knowledge,ie printed in newspapers at the time then the police not only dropped the ball it bounced up and hit them on the head as well.As posted by Douglas one in particular "the Middle wire" was apparently not public knowledge.That in itself begs the question,how did the letter writer get the information?.Did the police divulge the size of the knife?How much are we to believe was guessable? If this discussion is going to be fruitful,I would ask/suggest that each of the points be discussed.Then maybe we can look at the overall picture.Let's start on what we agree on:- the killer had some ties to riverside,the college and CJB.

Lapumo, sorry I snapped at you, I do get a little irritated at misquotations and thought you had done that on purpose. Since you didn't, let's move on...

Now that we're on the same wavelength, you are correct, I don't believe the middle wire being pulled was public knowledge. That was obviously one of the details Gren did not enlarge upon. However, I know next to nothing about cars (you put gas in, change the oil every so often, and can drive really fast). So the question now becomes: what is the easiest way to disable a VW? Pulling the middle wire as the letter writer claimed? If so, then it might very well have been a no-brainer to easily guess what the killer had done in that instance.

According to "Police hunt killer of Riverside College coed" (The Daily Enterprise, 11-1-1966, p. A-1):

[Deputy Coroner Mike] Reilly said the weapon could have been a slender-bladed knife at least three inches in length.

Also mentioned later in the same story:

Investigators theorized that the killer was someone who knew the girl would return to the parked VW. The distributor coil and the condensor to the car's engine had been torn out.

Otherwise, it was described simply as being "disabled." So, with those facts made public, the letter writer might have correctly guessed the details if he was not the killer.

Ed,
I know little about cars myself especially the design in that era,so my next little parable might have no bearing. However,I worked close to riverside in 1990,one day I locked my keys into the car.Having no clue how to retrieve the situation without BFI, I asked for assistance.
Having drawn a crowd of about 20 of my colleagues
all they could suggest was the same BFI or contacting the police.Up pops this guy out of nowhere,gets a thin strip of metal binding,cuts a notch at one end,slips it down between the window
seal and the window and lifts the button on the door-voila.This may serve no other purpose than to
give you a little pointer should you ever find yourself in the same embarrassing situation,but you know where I heading.I wonder if the hood of the VW could be opened from the outside or did the killer originally have to gain access to the
car to open the hood?If the latter he would have to have a fair knowledge and have come prepared!.
You wrote:-"That was obviously ONE of the details
Gren did not enlarge upon".Here's where I've been heading,any particular point can be theorized upon
and included or dismissed.However it's the sum of the total that counts,including how it relates to the suspects.When you take out,the middle wire,the
small knife(explained),the one scream,the kick to the head,how the letter writer described the
initial assault,the broken knife that was't broken
the rest can be easily guessed.Again we are only speaking hypothetically but if there was no Barnett would this not be looked at as very detailed letter? If Barnett was arrested for this
do you think Johnny and Barry would get him off

I am curious - is there any evidence that Bates WAS kicked in the head? When I spoke to Shumway, he made it clear that the RPD did not believe that her killer had written the notes, and the Zodaic had not, either. He said the knife did not break, and that all the information in the confession was available in the media. He did not say whether Bates had been kicked. At the time, Shumway was reluctant to offer any of the actual details of the crime itself. Tom had better luck later. Yet, I haven't heard a definitive answer for the "kicked in the head" story. Anyone?

According to "Police hunt killer of Riverside College coed" (The Daily Enterprise, 11-1-1966, p. A-1):

According to the coroner's office, cause of death was hemorrhage due to laceration of the right carotid artery.

But the autopsy revealed numerous other brutal blows to the girl's chest, arms, hands and face. (italics mine) The throat was savagely hacked, according to Deputy Coroner Mike Reilly, and it appeared the girl was punched several times in the face. There was no sexual assault, (italics mine) according to Reilly.

What I italicized might be what inspired the letter writer to claim that he kicked her in the head. Also, that there was no sexual assault seems to mitigate against her murder starting out as a rape. If rape is what was intended, one would think the perp would continue with the assault regardless of the state of the victim (ie, whether alive or dead).

Well, not all rapists are into necrophelia Good points. Guess that's one of the articles I don't have (sigh). Wonder why the writer didn't say he had punched her? Just curious. If he was trying to make it seem as if he was the killer, I would think he would have said "punched," but maybe he was trying to avoid using the language of the newspapers. Who knows. Thanks for pointing that out, Ed.

If rape is what was intended, one would think the perp would continue with the assault regardless of the state of the victim (ie, whether alive or dead).

If she screamed once or twice (as witnesses stated) it would have been too dangerous for the assailant to have stayed in the area to consummate a rape. He might have thought she would prove more tractable than she turned out to be.

This is why I opined that the suspect disabled her car on the pretext of giving her a ride home to talk about their breakup; pulling a wire isn't overly elaborate, but something that a disturbed man might do to keep someone in a place where he had some control. They ended up talking in the parking lot for an hour and a half instead, which served the same purpose, because were her car not disabled, she would have gone home and he would not have been able to spend that time with her.

Ed, is there any police report that indicates that the car was disabled? Surely they would have impounded the vehicle, trying to drive it first, and if it wouldn't start, that would have been significant?

Glen, I am unsure what particular clarification your looking for,an actual police report or verification that CJB's car was actually disabled.
If the latter,Ed posted earlier in this section on that.There's also a fairly comprehensive report
on Jakes site under "Riverside".

Gregory,Now that you mention it,I do not see any
definitive statement or proof that CJB was kicked in the head.However in noting Ed's post and suggestion in relation to the autopsy which revealed numerous brutal blows to the chest,arms,
hands and FACE,I see nothing that would eliminate
it either.
You wrote that Shumway said that the knife did not break.Iam not contradicting this but on Jake's site under RIVERSIDE he states that the coroner could not determine whether the knife broke or not!.Both these points bring me back to the discussion on the letter.I assume the object of the exercise for the letter writer,if he was not the killer,would be to claim credit and convince police that he was responsible.Do you not therefore think it peculiar that he include such detail that could be easily disproved?.
IF the knife did not break then it could not have been common knowledge ie reported at the time!
Again,another possibility could be that the knife did break and the killer recovered the broken piece???

Glen, I would assume that CJB's car being disabled was mentioned in the police report(s) (which I don't have, unfortunately), but it was mentioned at least twice in the newspaper reports. The method by which it was disabled does however appear to have been disinformation (ie, distributor coil and condensor being "torn out"), because it does not jibe with what apparently did happen (ie, middle wire being pulled).

Lapumo wrote:
"You wrote that Shumway said that the knife did not break.Iam not contradicting this but on Jake's site under RIVERSIDE he states that the coroner could not determine whether the knife broke or not!."

My source was "Police send murder confession to state's crime experts" (Riverside Press-Enterprise, 1 December 1966), which states that "Police said yesterday they had no evidence that the knife ... broke during the slaying."

Recently, Tom and Gregorypraxas have cited Steve Shumway's assertion that the knife definitely did not break. I trust both of them, and will amend my site when time allows, which will be sometime between now and the next presidential election.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

Jake,
Just to put it straight what it actually says is
Quote:-The killers claim that "she did not put up a struggle" was contradicted by the flesh and hair
found beneath Bates'fingernails and the churned up ground at the scene,and the coroner was not able to determine whether the knife actually broke in her body".
When you think about it,this is the only statement
that makes sense.How could anybody state for certain that the knife definitely did not break,
unless they had the knife?. Of course everyone is assuming that the blade broke off in her body,the letter does not state this and even if it did what's to stop the killer retrieving it?
But let me ask again,in the faint hope that someone might offer an opinion on it;-Why does the letter writer include this "false information"
if he's looking to take credit for the crime???

Lapumo wrote:
"Just to put it straight what it actually says is
Quote:-"

That's a quote from my site. I was quoting the newspaper.

"How could anybody state for certain that the knife definitely did not break,
unless they had the knife?."

I imagine that they could be certain the same way they're certain of the knife's length -- they'd measure the depth of the wound. If you have several wounds with clean entries that are three inches deep, and then some near a bone or something that have a jagged entry and are only 2 inches deep, the knife might have broken. I'm no Cyril Wecht, but I don't think it's a forensic impossibility.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

Jake,
Got my wires crossed ref:- Quotes from your site
versus Newspaper.I responded in haste because I thought your post left an ambiguity as to whether or not this information actually came from the coroner.Iam currently receiving treatment to remove my foot. Sorry buddy.

After affirming the details (saying the VW was "tampered with",etc.) Riverside 69'LT Kinkead says :"The person who wrote the confession letter is aware of facts about the homicide that only the killer would know. There is no doubt that the person who wrote the confession letter is our homicide suspect." This letter shows that the Chief of police after some 3 years of evidence collecting affirmsthe confession writer is the killer because he KNEW the facts of the case that were not public at the point of letter delivery!The complete letter is in my book.It is nonsense to say the letter writer didn't know thei was a struggle! He clearly meant it was easy to lead Bates to the alley-she went'like a lamb to the slaughter'he says.Again, he says later in the letter 'shewent very willingly'. Now, see :"She died hard. She squirmed and shook as I choaked(sic) her(the Chiefs letter says B was choked)and her lips twiched(sic) these 3 words see Zs torture 70' letter). If this isn't a 'truggle ' don't know what is !!I have read this letter over the years scores of times and there is nothing in here that contradictsthe case facts.The PRINTING on the envelope matched later Z communications according to State Examiner Morrill.What was in the envelope? Facts ,according to the good Chief only the suspect would know. Why the military dress shoes?Barnett did not have to do a costume thing to trick Bates as they knew each other. The heel print was a military dress shoe.The suspect spent time working on the car to 'help' and this took up some time-witnees greasy prints on car.

Lupumo-I gave that copy of the Pat Hautz letter to Tom and gratefully he posted it.We got a copy from the Riverside Press Enterprise reporter.We searched all references and asked teachers that were around in in 66/7' and there is no such person.We spoke to students of that period and they didn't know "her'.I woke up one morning after looking at the letter for the millionth time wondering if there was some clue and I got the "impression" to look at the last letter -it is Z!Strange.My suspect did know a Pat in his high school and I'm searching for more info-I have his year book some where!Lets do some computer searches for this name and derive the names meaning-Z stuff you know!I will contact the Press and see if it truly is an original and have them show it to the dreaded RPD for comparison to their letter. The confession is all caps and the Hautz letter isn't, but there could be some work done.

Lapumo- Don't have my books here ,but did find :"patrician- a nobleman, one of the senators of Rome,an aristocrat".

When I visited Riverside in October, I checked out the old city directories (specifically, the 1966 directory) for the surname "Hautz," and the page on which that surname would have appeared (if there was anyone in Riverside by that name that year) was missing! I don't know what to make of that...

Lapumo/EdN.-I looked up the meaning and I wasn't too surprised to find it goes back to ol'st. Patty.He went to Ireland from England and converted the Irish. To combine their pagan background with his faith he created a circle -the sun -and placed a cross -of Christ-through it; Z inspiration-a cross and circle? Davis loved the Irish as did Manson.I have posted on these things in the past.The Process cult that Davis and Manson were into published a magazine and on a center page was a huge cross and circle.In 66/7' there would just be Davis ;and now I wonder: did he pick a name ,Patricia, that derived from one of his Irish heroes(& Robert Emmet-cipher- the Irish revolutionary/)-if he even typed that 67' note to the paper.I think HautZ is German hmmmm.We can note that the writer wants more focus on the boy that killed Bates!

The Riverside paper did mention that there were some crank calls-the Z?

Haut is the German word for skin.
St Patrick was actually born in Wales.

There's that Welsh connection again...

I can fill you guys in on a bit of history surrounding Robert Emmet if you feel it relevant.
It will take a bit of space,so I would prefer to have permission from Tom or Ed.Maybe they could edit it later.

Just start a new thread.

HOWARD:
Peterson points out, the circle and cross of Z can depict the coda found on music scores.A coda "is a concluding musical section that is formally distinct from the main structure".It literally means "tail."My suspect was a musician and played instruments-just FYI stuff.He wrote songs also.

BRUCE:
I must agree that the music approach is compelling. I have sometimes wondered about this, particularly regarding the Mikado references. Has anyone ever looked at the sheet music to the Mikado theme song (with the notes and bars)? I seem to recall from a code & cipher book (I don't have the book with me at the moment--if it's the one I'm thinking of), where actual musical notes are what is encoded (or something to that effect).

Howard, "my" suspect was quite a good trombonist who composed classical-style musical compositions that his family played together as a pastime. Is this germane? Heaven knows, at this juncture.

Oh yes, in "The Mikado," Nanki-Poo disguises himself as a "second trombone!"

Bruce-Good thought on the possible reference. Maybe someone will come up with that Mikado/and/or cipher ref'.If that book was published prior to the 70'Z missive then it could fit as another possible Z source- FIND the book!The desk as Peterson informed me was found in the music room.We should start a thread on the desk top poem-just break it down and look at each word/section with a fresh approach.I looked at it scores of times and it seems like an enigma. I believe whoever wrote it -Z or -was on something!Did Cheri Jo confess to the writer that she was sick of living? Her mother was committed to an istitution ;she had a severe drinking problem.Cheri's home was broken and her father took it all quit hard and was very lonely. Did all of this deeply affect her on a subconscious level in spite of the fact she wanted to become a flight attendant, was popular in school and was engaged to football player Dennis Highland(we spoke to Dennis who to this day thinks RPD blew it by all the focus on "Barnett") He knew BB and does not believe he did the crime).I have counseled many people over the years and it was no little surprise that some of the most popular people were actually so unhappy and secretly wanted to end it all! Their friends would have been shocked to know their real feelings.Cheri had been very close to her mom. Does this show that the desk etcher knew details of Cheri's real feelings?Just to start some analysis-I don't know ,but it's just intriguing.

Doug-Thats of interest considering the Mikado reference you gave.Ted certainly had a taste for opera and did play that instrument,etc.Keep up the work .I know that you guys have worked very hard on the case and you have found things that the authorities have missed!Just love it!

Lapumo-Interesting that the German word HAUT means skin! Just add that Z on the end.I also note that HautZ letter is dated 11/1/67' and that it was written 1 mo. after the Bates article which the letter refers to as 10/1/67';exactly 1 mo-something z liked!See also the term "BLUE print"in the letter.Was this a subber'projection and that the writter had worked with blue prints?

Howard, a question on the Hautz letter:-It appears with some of the Capital letters that they seem to be at a higher level on the page than the lower case letters.See E in Editor,N in Nov,O in Oct,F in fellow.Is this a "Typewriter fault".It also appears that the Z in Hautz is a little lower???

Those of us that are old enough to remember manual typewriters will probably remember that when you didn't hold the CAPS key down all the way the capital letter that you type will always be higher up on the page than the lower case letters.

In the Chief of polices' letter that I quoted from he says;"While in this driveway area ,our victim[Bates]was attacked with a knife and stabbed numerous times in the chest.She was also stabbed once in the back ,and her throat was severlycut ,almost to the extent where she was decapitated.In addition to the stab wounds our victim had been beaten about the face and had been choked[the author said he had "choaked"Bates]. The Chief says;"We were ableto lift some latent fingerprints[and they ,RPD,told me there were no prints-and now we must believe their statements on the case now!]from the victim's vehicle. These prints were not identified .Our unidentified prints are on file with the FBI under the FBI file No.32-27195,Latent Case No. 73096.Copies of the latent lifts from your homicide[LB]were obtained from CII and sent to the FBI for comparison with latent lifts of our investigation."The Chief says that the suspect "used a black felt tip pen to address the envelopes and had used upper case print".This is an amazing admission -as the prints on these envelopes that containedtopsecret info that only the killer would know did NOT match the local boy's or Barnett-but they DID match Zodiac's!Zodiac used a black felt tip pen on Harnell's VW at LB.I have some Bates reports somewhere-I'll look and post.

Howard:

Did you just write that the prints on the Bates envelope matched Z's prints? I didn't think we had any Z prints...

Realtor

Realtor-No, I did say that the printing on the envelope (11/29/66')sent to the newspaper and RPD matched those of the later Zodiac missives. Of course, the CA State Document Examiner Sherwood Morrill was Z script authority(and remains so !)and it was he that declared the match.Incidently, those top secret details that Chief Kinead of RPD(69')wrote about in his letter to the NPD were originally SEALED in this same envelope/s!Also, Morrill checked their "local boy" suspects writing-no match!M even checked Paul Avery's writing-no match! I said M was a total perfectionist.Just click howard-if you are bored and you can see what I (or anyone) has posted ,as ya know.Thanx for bringing this to my attention
I want to be as accurate as possible and when I make mistakes I need to be told!

Howard:

Not trying to razz you or anything, but here's another question. You last post says that Sherwood Morrill was Z script authority (and remains so!). That sounds like he's still alive, yet Tom's picture of him is captioned "The late Sherwood Morrill..." If he's still alive, do you know of how I could contact him?

Thanks.

Realtor

Realtor-I know we can talk to him, all we need is a good medium! Yes, though robust and quite fit at one time,he has passed. What I meant was that his decisions were based on his vast experience and his intimate study of Zs handwriting ,which I believe ,are valid back to the point of analysis.There is a movement afoot to either downplay Morrill's work relative to Zs writing or to disregard it entirely. I fear this is based on the various personal views of different Z authorities/researchers-and myself,as I am a Morrillite! If he examined my guys' writing to Zs and there was no match I would abide by it. Now, here's what makes the case difficult and full of great pitfalls;did Zodiac use a tracing system? There are some really good ones out there. We do know that he was into disguises-at least, he says so. He covered his finger tips with airplane glue. If he wrote the Riverside letters then we know that,as the RPD stated, he was "familiar with detection techniques" as he had typed all caps and he did so on a paper/carbon stack, sending the last sheets so as to make detection of the typewriter almost impossible. Geez why not just dump the thing! Was it a 'public typewriter' or was it in someone else's home? Z apparently changed guns with each strike, and on it goes.A bit of a mystery -what's new!The only 2 things that could lead us away from a trace technique is the ball point pen etch job on the desk at Riverside and the free hand writing on the Hartnell car door.If you wrap your pen with a cloth and write in this fashion, it can alter your writing enough to change it's outward appearance.Experts don't look for 'similarities' as much as they do for linear base pattern,proportionate heights of letters,both caps/lower case ,spacing, pen lifts/press points,etc. So it's all part of a very tough case full of imponderables. No,you won't rase me -I try to focus on the case and avoid personality conflicts. We all need each other to work together in hopes of making a difference in the case-NOTHING is impossible!We should be thankful that Tom has put a lot of work AND money(thousands on the case-and that's in hours too!)into the site and that he ALLOWS us to post our various opinions. He is he ALLOWED to state his? You bet-and then some.I will keep my respect for him as a researcher and as a friend -period!Does he have faults? Yes, he will be the first to say so ;but which one of us does not? "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"-I pass!Thanks for the post. www.zodiacmurders.com

"Rh" was etched on a desk from a Riverside City College classroom.This desk came from a music room.RH in music means right hand;or that the right hand should play.Peterson rightly says that no one with these initials "rh" could be tied into the Bates 87'.The cross/circle is the coda in music which means finish.The word literally means tail.As the dictionary says;"a concluding musical section that is formally distinct from the main structure."Does this indicate that the suspect had an interest in music and maybe even played an instrument? Did he take a music class at RCC and was a part time student. Perhaps another reason was to meet 'college girls' that may have given him the "brush off".These are just postulates,something to think about.The surmising as to what rh meant are multitudinous. Robin Hood(one of mine!),rh-the blood factor,Roane High(my suspect's HS),the principal's initials,name of a city that relates,Riverside High(Ramona High)Root Hoor (of the"Exorcist" "Alester Crowley's writings),name of a person,Rock Hard,(Little)Red Riding Hood,Roland Heights,a city in the area, are but a few.The author knew we don't!We do know Zodiac used "RP" on an envelope which stood for Red Phantom.The initials stood for an imaginary character that meant something to Zodiac at that time.Here too?

I told a friend this last Sunday that my guy's full name doesn't fit in the "The Confession "BY------------" ;if ,in deed, any name has to fit!She asked me if she could see a copy of the 11/29/66' letter. She is really sharp so I thought lets see what she finds.She examined the letter very carefully and did some measuring of character spacing. She asked me how many letters my guy's full name had and I said 18;"perfect' she replied,as that is the same count she came up with!If you leave a space after the Y as is done in other places in the letter you count over the first row and it's the D in DEAD and then count the other 3 letters;then drop to the second row and you have the INK in THINKING ;then up to row one for SHE ;then drop to row 3 for the A in NEAR ;then up to row one for IS; then a drop to row two for O in ABOUT; then to row one NOT ; and to row two for M in MY.I am giving it this way as this is how she started until she got familiar with the letter. She was just trying to keep the letter spacing correct. When you do this you get 18 letter spaces to the end of the base line. My guy's full name is Bruce McGregor Davis or 18 characters!The things we won't do to show off our guy-and get shot down in the process. Ya gotta' have a little fun. I had been into the seeming 12 dashes that comprise the line after BY, but when you follow my friend's calculations it comes out to 18 spaces so we have THE CONFESSION BY-BRUCEMcGREGORDAVIS .Now how can you refute that- he left his name as the confessor on the letter! I simply must show the RSPD and all 18 of my psychologists! Man it is late ZZZZZZZ!Oscar ,I need that brew you have!

There is at least one statement in the Confession letter of 66' that could hint that Zodiac,at some time prior, read at least one book on Jack the Ripper-or worse ,he read lurid detective magazines and saw that Jack wrote letters to the Editor and the police(we know that only one of those letters may be authentic-see the best book to date on the Rip' P. Sugden's The Complete History of Jack the Ripper-he leans towards a suspect I picked out in 88'G.Chapman)and that JTR slashed the throats of his victims after he strangled them into unconsciousness ,as with Bates ,at least he attempted to choke her first. J in some cases cut the victim's uterus'out. The letter writer says:"But I shall cut off her female parts and deposit them for the whole city to see."Mary Kelly's internal organs were laid out and the the Rip' knew the the 'whole city would know'.It is only a point of interest, but Zs victim's number 5 and Jack's canonical victims was 5 .I think JTR was an influence on the young Zodiac. There's more ,but this should suffice now.

One other thing about my suspect- he took 3 years of Zoology in school.Many serial killers find that subject interesting and, no doubt, 'delightful!The reference shows an interest in dissection ,in this case, of the "female parts" as the'66 Riverside writer describes them.

Zs torture letter is morbid to the max ,and shows the same state of mind as the '66er.

I will be happy to eat humble pie if the DNA proves to be Barnett's but I really have a hard time believing he is the killer. First of all, a guy with no criminal history suddenly goes into a rage and stabs his friend 42 times!?!--That is not a rage killing but the work of a psycho. Then he cleans up and jollies into a restaurant, having fun, talking with friends. If the case was ever strong he would'nt have been enjoying his freedom all these years. She would only have stayed and conversed with someone she knew, but where ?-- standing out in the dark, in the cold.
I recently took some classes at RCC and one night I had to stay late at the library (granted the place has changed a bit), and after closing I stayed outside talking to friends on a bench and quite a few people walked by -- my point is that if she had sat out there talking that long someone would have seen her(them).
I have my own theory as to what happened that fateful night. I think that Cheri checked out books (they know they were checked out at 6:00),
put them in her car and took off (that is why noone remembers seeing her at the library) with someone, possibly Barnett or another guy. The killer thinking she is still in the library disables her car and waits near her car, then her companion drops her off back at the library at aboyt 10:00ish, not waiting to see that she leaves the parking lot safely.) Cheri discovers that her car will not start and begins the scary walk to find a phone. The person she was with earlier does'nt speak up because he does not want to be implicated. Thus her killer was indeed the Zodiac.

Cheri Jo was seen in the library the night she was killed. That aside, I'd like to think that if Zodiac was stalking Bates and disabled her car, he would have noticed her leave the library with another guy. Also, I doubt Bates would have believed a telephone to be located in an alley.

Well for that matter what was she doing in the alley at all then? You know, the alley is right off the path, she of course would have been grabbed and pulled there.
The killer would have not seen her leave the library because he never saw her enter, he pulled up into the parking lot later noticed her car and just assumed she was inside.
Just a guess but it is as good as any.

What path are you talking about? The entire area has changed. And which parking lot are you talking about? Bates was parked on the street.

There is no evidence to indicate Bates was forced to the alley.

I know a lot has changed but alot is still there-- like Terracina. As I understand it there was a path and offshoot alleys between each of the houses , if she wasn't forced there why would she be there?
It is true there is a whole lot of conflicting info out there, I did think she was parked in a lot, but I have to go there to get their summer schedule ( I take classes there for fun), and I am going to research it --believe it or not there are still some of the same folks working there.

Sylvie, please e-mail me.

There's no evidence to indicate that Bates was forced into the alley, but on the other hand, there's no evidence to indicate that she was not forced into the alley. Given the circumstances I think it's safe to postulate that she either went there with someone she knew and trusted or was forced; one way or the other.

For those not familiar with the story of the "Kissing Kidnapper," have a look at the article at http://home.att.net/~mignarda/kiss.pdf. Based on everything I've seen, I'm inclined to speculate that the killer may have forced Cheri to drive him about for a while before finally making per park at the college and forcing her into the alleyway. I'm also inclined to think that the assault began as an attempted rape.

I still do not understand how these killers do so much without anyone noticing (O.J. included)--I mean how can somone remove a distributer wire from a car and noone sees that--especially if it was parked on the street. I throw a piece of gum out my car window and a bunch of people yell at me for littering.

Sylvie, that's because littering offends people's sensibilities, but opening the hood of one's car and puttering about is a perfectly normal activity. It takes just a few seconds to remove a distributor wire, if you know what you're doing, and how is anyone to know it's not your car you're puttering with?

Sylvie: I haven't confirmed it yet, but I'm pretty certain that the actual site where CJB's body was found is located in what is now the parking lot bounded by Terracina, Magnolia and Ramona, directly in front of the A.G Paul Quadrangle (I believe that's the name). I think it's between the sidewalk and the first parking spaces.

There were apparently six abandoned houses along Terracina between Riverside and Magnolia, where the Quadrangle now stands and extending out into the parking lot; there was a row of houses along Fairfax as well. From what I can figure 35 years later, the alley must have been between both rows of houses, parallel with Fairfax and Terracina (at least, that's what I understand from "Mercury vapor lights now illuminate scene where Cheri Bates was killed" (The Daily Enterprise, 11-11-1966, p. B-1)). Her body was found in the driveway between 3680 and 3692 Terracina, some 75 feet from the row of lights installed ahead of schedule because of her murder. According to "Leads are few in search for knife-killer of coed" (The Press, 11-1-1966, p. B-1), her car was parked some 75 yards farther west of that driveway on Terracina (towards Magnolia).

Anyway, I hope this gives you some idea of what the area was like back then.

Thank you Ed,
you were extremely helpful.

Sylvie, could you e-mail me at ZodiacFiles@aol.com?

Just a couple of thoughts on the confession letter I wanted to put forward for discussion....
1.Did Zodiac know CJB?
There are probably more credible ways of making my first point here,but please cut me a little slack,it's the bottom line that's important.
Upon reading this letter I am often reminded of a scene from Silence of the lambs..the final face to face discussion between "Hannibal" and "Clarice" where she is trying to get him to identify the serial killer "Buffalo Bill".He refuses to name him outright,but does offer clues
as to how he can be found.(It's been a while),but the conversation goes something like..
Hannibal-"What does he do..This man you seek?
Clarice-"he kills..he murders..he skins!