"New" Crime-Scene Pic
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Possible Zodiac Victim Cheri Jo Bates: "New" Crime-Scene Pic
|By Tom Voigt (Admin) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 10:44 pm:|
Here's a link. Warning: it's very graphic.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-251-72-110.client.attbi.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 06:59 am:|
Yes, it is graphic. Her purse is HUGE; a lot bigger than what I thought. She must have carried her books and notebooks in it.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 06:38 pm:|
Thanks, Tom. While graphic, I feel crime scene photos tell the story a million times better than words (I just had a homicide today where the crime scene photos really helped bring a lot of the autopsy findings together).
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-rh01.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 06:57 pm:|
Seriously, was any of her clothing the color red?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-1-70.phil.east.verizon.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 04:37 pm:|
Scott, I believe her capris were red, based on newspaper accounts.
Looks as if every drop of blood was drained from her body and pooled into the little declivity in which she's lying. I guess that's not surprising, seeing that all the major blood vessels to and from her brain were cut. I wonder how long it took her to lose consciousness?
|By Nick (Nick) (126.96.36.199) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:14 am:|
That's pretty grim Douglas.
Based on your observation, I'd say this murder was overkill.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-3-90.phil.east.verizon.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:12 am:|
I agree, Nick, but only on the basis of the stab wounds enumerated in the autopsy report. Most of the blood loss would have been from the three slashes that cut her throat. If that's all the killer had done, I wouldn't think of it as overkill.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:11 pm:|
The time it would take her to die all depends on which stab wounds were the first. THis can be determined to some extent by the presence or absence of defense wounds. Loss of conciousness and death will occur within seconds of laceration of the carotids, subclavians (usually), pulmonary trunk, or aorta.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-2-32.phil.east.verizon.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 05:31 pm:|
If I recall what the autopsy report stated, the stab wounds, though numerous, were all fairly superficial. I'm inclined to think, based on the evidence of a fierce struggle, that the attacker simply wore her down to the point where she no longer had the strength to fend off the final attack--three or so slashes with the knife that nearly severed her head. She might have been weakened by blood loss, but given the superficial nature of the stab wounds I think she simply succumbed to fatigue. Any one of you out there who has ever been in a physical fight will immediately understand what I'm talking about--if not, just watch a professional hockey game or two!
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-251-72-110.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 08:01 pm:|
It almost looks like Cheri was on her back, then rolled over on top of her purse. See
how her feet are crossed, and her right arm looks like it's under her.
Could be a trench. It almost distorts the picture. Cheri looks so tiny compared to the men standing there.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:01 pm:|
I originally thought it rather suspicious that Cheri Jo's ankles were crossed, however Mike Kelleher told me it's not an unusual position for the victim of such an assault.
|By Nick (Nick) (126.96.36.199) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 03:46 am:|
I had heard that she was nearly decapitated. For someone to have accomplished that with three slashes might indicate a medical background. On second thought, I believe fury could compensate. This killer was very angry, but methodical in his procedure. That's a rare combination. No wonder it's been thought the Zodiac might be responsible.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-1-227.phil.east.verizon.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 06:34 am:|
Nick, I don't think we need to jump to any conclusions about the guy's background. It's not like the Ripper, who was able to locate specific organs in a short space of time, in the dark. Even with a short knife, given Cheri's small stature, three slashes should have been sufficient, if the blade was sharp enough, and enough force was applied. "Nearly decapitated," while it sounds dramatic, probably doesn't accurately describe what happens in a throat-slashing attack. The spinal column and most of the neck muscles usually remain intact, which is a far cry from an actual decapitation.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 05:33 pm:|
Tom, I agree with Mike. I have seen that before with stabbing victims.
Nick, it's actually pretty easy to "nearly decapitate" someone. Most of the soft tissue is very easy to cut through. I have seen a few slash victims who were "nearly decapitated" by people who have not the LEAST bit of medical knowledge.
Doug, which "neck muscles" are you referring to? In my experience, the platysma is always cut, but the SCMs and strap muscles are variable. The semispinalis, splenius, etc. are usually intact in an anterior attack.
|By Nick (Nick) (220.127.116.11) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:34 pm:|
I see what you guys are saying. "Nearly decapitated" seems to be a buzz phrase used by coroners to emphasize the level of violence involved. It would be difficult to remove one's head with a knife. You would probably need an axe or saw.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-182-217.rev.o1.com - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 10:45 pm:|
I have had the Cheri Bates autopsy up for some time at:www.zodiacmurders.com.Other reports will be up in time.Lots of delays...
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-1-130.phil.east.verizon.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 12:06 am:|
There's a good interactive model of neck musculature at http://www.mythos.com/webmd/Content.aspx?P=MUSCD1
. Another famous throat-slashing case is that of Nicole Simpson. I believe the autopsy
photos were available at one time online, but I can't seem to find them now. The report is
out there, though, and it doesn't describe a lot of damage to the neck musculature.
The Bates autopsy report states: "The thyroid cartilage is obliquely cut on each side. Each cut is about 3 cm long and angles from lateral above to medially below forming a somewhat V shape structure with the apex at about the mid portion of the thyroid cartilage anteriorly. The upper edges are cut much deeper than the inferior portions. The medial edges of the upper portions of the right and left lobes of the thyroid are partially incised. The right and left superficial jugular veins are completely transected. The right common carotid artery is completely transcised about 2 cm above its origin." I'm not sure you could do that kind of damage without cutting into any of the neck muscules, but this doesn't necessarily sound like a "near-decapitation" to me.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (adsl-67-112-27-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:28 pm:|
My feeling on this is, she was on her back. You can see the blood on the top back of her head to the right, as well as dirt and leaves in her hair and on her back. I think her killer either kicked her over or pushed her over causeing her foot to cross that way. Or could her killer be leaveing a sign of a cross ? It is hard to see but it almost looks like part of a circle on the left side of her feet.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-160.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 03:04 am:|
According to newspaper reports "At the time of her death, she was wearing faded red capris,a long sleeved pale yellow blouse and a ribbon tie at the throat,white sandals with straps at the heels". The bag she had with her was a "large red and tan woven straw bag".
As is evident from the picture Cheri had this bag with her when she died.It does appear large enough
to have contained books and may have been the reason she had such a bulky item with her.Reports say she was collecting books but I wonder if she may also have been dropping off others.However as we know the 2/3 books she did get from the library
were found in the passenger seat of her car.
It does seem strange that she would not have taken the books with her if she was under the impression that she was getting a lift home.
More curious still is that it has also been reported that "her keys were found in the ignition lock".Even if she thought she was returning to the car this seems odd.Was she flustered enough by the situation to have forgotten them or was she abducted from this scene? Something else, anyone?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-151-197-6-123.phil.east.verizon.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 11:47 pm:|
She might very well have been abducted. The lag in time between the library's closing at 9:00 and the reports of screams at 10:30 seems a bit long for the "good Samaritan" scenario. I still can't get over the case of the Kissing Kidnapper that occurred in Riverside about a month later. This was an individual who obviously got his jollies by abducting a woman, having her drive him a long distance and making an awkward attempt at rape. A similar scenario might have played out in the Bates murder.
|By Nick (Nick) (220.127.116.11) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 12:29 am:|
Agreed. Bates was abducted and murdered. Riverside is a long way from the Bay. I'll bet if you counted the bodies of unknown victims along the PCH over the last few decades, it would number near the 100's.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-57.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 07:17 am:|
It may have been even loger again Doug.Reading the same clippings it reports that
friends of hers were in the library from 7.15 until closing and no reports of anyone
Apparently she was heading there around 6pm. Around tea time with not many there? She could have been in and gone!
There are still those letters though Nick, don't know!
|By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-ad05.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 12:15 am:|
Body Position- Body was rolled over face down, often when the killer can't bear to see
the face (or stare) of the victim looking at him. This can be because the killer knew the
victim. Could be other reasons, of course. Z didn't have problems with his victims faces
in the other crimes. Even the ones he knew and the ones he spent time talking to before he
Other possibilities- did he turn over the body to take a trophy? Z took trophies before.Maybe a neclace that detaches from the back of the neck.
Was the killer especially fond of this victim?
I am curious now if CJB usually wore a necklace or even a bracelet, something that the killer moved the body to remove.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 11:31 am:|
Or, the simple sol'n, the body FELL in that position.
|By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-ad05.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:46 pm:|
NO bodies dont fall that way- note the crossed legs and also the leaves on back of
head stuck in victim's hair. Mostly likely that she was on her back then rolled over.
Anyway discussions are fine, but sarcasm comes thru in words like the "Simple" solution. Simple solutions for a simpleton hey mr. muskjogee?
|By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-ad05.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:52 pm:|
Was there ever anything missing such as a bracelet or necklace that victim was known
to wear but that was not found on her body?
Or was victim known to put the straps of her large purse accross her shoulder? Such that it needed to be removed from her fallen body by moving her body?
Does anyone have any useful information on this as this is supposed to be a serious message board to discuss and hopefully advance ideas and theories.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-231-193-32.client.attbi.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:55 pm:|
IMHO, if the killer rolled her over it was probably to avoid getting blood on him as he slit her throat.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 04:58 pm:|
Yes, bodies DO fall that way, Law. I've seen many a body cross-legged post-mortem
after a WITNESSED attack where the vitim FELL. Leaves can get stuck in hair during a
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, Law, so you can put your insults away. I was trying to say the simplest answer is often overlooked. I value the other possibilities you put forward and I don't reject them. And it's Dr. Muskogee.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 05:00 pm:|
Tom, blood usually spurts fairly spectacularly from the carotid, so I think the killer might have gotten soaked anyway. However, I think your point is logical in that the killer might have THOUGHT he could avoid getting spattered having her in that position.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 05:37 pm:|
According to a private letter written by the former Chief of police of Riverside PD,
there was no molestation and no evidence of robbery as concerns Cheri Jo Bates.Everything
Dr.Muskogee is correct.Also,they had been struggling for some time.Detective reports said the death area 'looked like a freshly plowed/churned field!'She may have "squirmed"(as the Confession says)several times and rolled over,at least partially,as the two literally fought("some fought it was horrible" said the 10/5/70 card FYI).All reports indicate a 'violent' struggle.
I think when the killer kicked her in the head, it greatly stunned Cheri and she may have rolled over with some effort from the perp and this is when he stabbed her in the back and cut her throat to silence her scream/s.
All comments that the Confession contradicts evidence of a struggle are incorrect.There was no struggle as it related to her being deceived into a"lift"and when he first grabbed Bates in the aley("she went very willingly")but when he began to strangle her, she broke free and the Confession indicated she fought and "died hard."
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-151-197-122-194.phil.east.verizon.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 11:42 pm:|
My thought is that he simply wore her down to the point where she was physically incapable of resistance.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 11:43 am:|
Howard, I really like your assessment tied in with the (possible) Z commentary. Very
interesting way of presenting it!
I don't know if you've gotten my email, but I'm working on the pics. Nothing so far, though.
I think the biggest problem with interpretation of crime scenes is (thanks to movies and t.v. shows like CSI) people think you can always reconstruct what definitively happened based on the scene. While the scene DOES divulge all kinds of "clews" which many people have astutely mentioned, we will probably never know 100% what happened. Luckily, most posters here seem well-versed with regard to scene interpretation and we can discuss all these possibilities.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-30-245.rev.o1.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 03:28 am:|
We have the early birds- those who advocate,or at least express the opinion that CJB may have left the library 'early' and was abducted(I don't believe she was ever abducted,but that she did go with the stranger with the shiney black military dress shoes on,of her own free will) sometime,but not long after 6:00PM.The library was open from 1-5PM and then reopened at 6:00PM and then closed at 9:00PM.Students could study in a room at the library.Several of us visited this very area on the RS trip.See news section.
Only one librarian said he may have seen Cheri studying in the library.Another person believed he saw her outside the library waiting to go in at 6:00PM.
We know Cheri called her friend Stephnie G. at around 3:45PM(a call at 3:00 PM failed to contact Stephnie)and asked her to go to the library to study and check out some books.Stephnie declined.So,it does seem that Bates wanted to do more than just check out three books-she indicated she wanted to do some studying.Cheri left the house just before her dad came home around 5:00PM.We can assume she did arrive a little early and was probably seen waiting for the library to open at 6:00PM.
If she left the library shortly after arriving there then her abduction would take place around others.The perp clearly wanted to make his approach when she was isolated,when the library was closedat 9:00PM.If her car was rigged to fail,and it was,all she had to do was go into the library, as it wa still open and call her father or some friend to come get her.If she were abducted from her car,then why did she take her purse?Why would the perp even allow for this unnecessary gesture?She did leave her books on the seat,but she felt,no doubt, she was coming back to the car.They were probably somewhat heavy,I would say,so no need to carry them.
Then we have the report that there were two sets of military shoe/sandle prints leaving the car and going into the death alley with no untoward signs she was forced or dragged there.The prints were parallel.
Local residents reported hearing screams at around 10:30 PM,THEN a few minutes later the 'sound of an old car(probably that old 47-51 Studebaker and seen on Riverside Dr.-some seemed to have seen the car while coming and going from the library at closing time)starting up and driving away.'The shoe prints leading to the alley lock in a general time frame linked to the 10:30 PM scream/s.It would seem that the confessor was correct when he said he waited for her to run the battery down and then after about two minutes he approached her and offered help.Then the prints lead to the alley and those 10:30 PM screams.We will assume the ear witnesses heard the scream/s at 10:30 and not at 9:30PM.
The time gap has to be accounted for.It is real,must be accepted,even though some can't imagine what was going on from 9-till 10:30 PM!The perp did say that CB was THEN very willing to TALK to me.This took some time and then quiclky focused on wht was wrong with her car.He seems to have tried to 'repair it because of the greasy prints in and on the poutside of the VW.How long this tok,we don't know.I had a guy come out fix my stranded car sometime ago and we talked as he worked.About an hour elapsed.I was quite surprised the time passed so rapidly.Then the 75 yard walk to the alley.Then he grab her and then he seems to molest her,if we believe the Confession.How long he lingered with her in this situation is unclear,but some perps hold their victims for sometime before they begin really trying to kill them.He may have been telling her why he was going to kill her,etc. This has happened before in other cases,but the victim escaped to tell all that the perp did and said.The perp,at some point, began to strangle her.We then have the fierce struggle that lasted for a period of time-how long,we don't really know,but seems to have ended around 10:30PM.And this is around the time the old car leaves the area.I think logic demands that the space in between the murder and the car starting ,find the perp seaching in the dark for his watch.Common horse sense(horse sense is stable thinking!). Why argue the time gap-it did happen!Case fact.An early scenario,IMHO,doesn't fit period.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-174.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 06:42 am:|
Howard my man, that's not a bad effort for 3:30 in the morning.
It bothers me that there appears to be no information as to Cheri's whereabouts between the time she left the house (approx 5pm) and the library opening time at 6pm.Save to say she travelled the distance and was probably seen just before 6pm waiting for it to open.
A check of the most straightforward route including distance and time reveals:
Start on Via san Jose O
Turn right on california Street 0.4
Left on Streeter avenue 0.5
Turn right on Central avenue 1.3
Distance 2.2 miles Approximate travel time 4 minutes. (hope I have the right addresses)
One can only assume that she did intend to stop off somewhere as there wouldn't be much point in standing outside the library for 55 minutes.
That decision,I suggest, could only have been taken before she left the house.
If that was to meet someone she knew, apparently that person has not come forward.
The only other thing perhaps,is that she planned to stop off at a store or something.
I wonder if there was a record of phone calls made from the house between 3.45 and 5pm.
Or perhaps she did have items or receipts in her bag that may have told us where she stopped off.
The killer had to know she was at or going to the library.A stranger would have had to be on the scene when she arrived in the car park or followed her there.That's the only way he could link her with the car.
Someone who knew her of course also knew the car and could have arrived later.He most likely would still have to know she was there,would he not?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-59-37.phil.east.verizon.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 09:59 am:|
The coroner's report, I believe, stated that her stomach contained large pieces of beef, vegetable matter that lookd like celery or onion, and curdled milk/cottage cheese. That sounds like dinner at a steak house to me. One might speculate that she went some place for dinner during the time in question. Her Dad wasn't home, and therefore she might not have felt the necessity to cook for herself alone.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:07 am:|
Personally, I have no problem with the "time gap." I have talked for extened periods of time with people I only know in passing just because the situation calls for it (ie. waiting for a store to open, waiting to pick someone up, etc.). I would certainly be inclined to talk to someone for a long time if my car was broken down and I have no place else to go. Additionally, this person may be my ticket home! I think women are much more verbose and comfortable conversing with slight aquaintances than are men in similar situations.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (184.108.40.206.lcinet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:09 pm:|
I believe she was stalked* ("I am stalking your girls now"may not have been an empty boast)for some time.On the day of her death,she was probably being followed from the time she left the house to attend church with her father.She,as you know ,dined at a local restaurant,Sandys(I visited the place and even had lunch there before it closed down-several people-including the waitress, engaged me in conversation about the Bates murder!)and later went home.I think that when her dad left to go to the beach and later dine with friends,her home was being watched.Her father saw her playing records when he left.Her phone records show she called her friend at 3:45 PM as given.We do know she left the house before her dad got home around 5:00 PM,he then left for dinner.Friends saw the VW at the house at around 4:30 PM.
At around 5:30 PM,Cheri called(pay phone?)her friend Donna,who worked with her at the bank.Cheri had misplaced a term paper bibliography and this is the reason for the call.Donna had no knowledge of what happened to it.They talked for a bit too.This fills the time 'gap' in nicely.
A friend of Cheris reported she saw and waved to her at around 6:10 PM.If it was Bates,she did not acknowledge the wave.One man who lived near the library, saw someone that could have been Cheri driving to the RCC library about 6:00 PM or so-could have been a little later.She was being closely followed by a 1965-66 bronze Oldsmobile.Z seemd to use different cars.FYI.I have always wondered if this was the perp in one of his cars.Was he continuing his 'stalking'?I say this to account for the old 47-52 Studebaker seen parked on Riverside Dr.that night.
I just don't see any real gaps where she could have been abducted.I think since the perp was possibly following her,he entered the library after he pulled the wire out of her VW and "waited" as he said in the Confession.This way he could keep tabs on her so he would know when to approach her.The only clue I can scrape up as to when Cheri left the library was a little before closing time.I think this was so,because the perp said he "...waited for her IN the library and followed* her out AFTER about two minutes..." so her car would be..about dead by then." and ,hence,be ready for his approach.He was most probably the young brown haired man with a beard seen talking to a young blonde female.Neither he nor the girl returned for the reinactment some two weeks later.Drives you crazy wondering just who they were!
"She was THEN[indicates those earlier"brush offs"] very willing to TALK[how long?]to me."
The penchant for details (this includes those classic spelling errors and literary errors-including the threats or warnings,multiple identical or close to it, letter/s sent to newspapers, and the demand for the letter to be published,etc.)is not unlike Zs missives,some three years later.Even words like "squirmed,""screamed: and "twitched" is found in Zs later torture letter of 1970.
The basics smack of KJs abduction scenario.Car sabotaged,perp approaches and offers a lift,etc.FYI
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-205.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 07:33 am:|
Good call Doug, but does Howard's post eliminate that?
Howard, you wrote; " She,as you know,dined at a local resturant,Sandy's and went home later".
Actually I didn't! I assume this was sometime that afternoon,before 5pm ?
Muskogee,The time gap bothers me in terms of who she was actually speaking to.I imagine the killer would not have wanted to spend time "out in the open" risking been seen.The flip side of that is her being comfortable speaking with someone up a dark alley.
I do not imagine either that the killer wanted to risk a lot of time playing around with the car pretending to fix it.
It was reported in the papers that friends of hers arrived at the library at 7.15pm and were there until closing,Yet no positive sighting can be reported inside the library,apparently!
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-84-43.phil.east.verizon.net - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 09:57 am:|
The newspaper accounts said she had breakfast at Sandy's; not dinner.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-43.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 02:05 pm:|
Therefore,while I agree that it is the logical conclusion(that she went for something
to eat)it still brings me back to my original statement.
That her actual whereabouts cannot be accounted for.Perhaps it is fair to say that if she did do this, then it was probably something she did on a fairly regular basis.I am just suggesting that it may not be entirely usual for an 18 year old to go out to dinner on her own.But perhaps her circumstances meant that she did.
If we assume she did, then given the "time window"
it would most likely have been somewhere en route to the library or somewhere not to far off.
Possibly most likely a place she visited before/regurarly.Bottom line...you think someone would have remembered her,given the circumstances.
Especially if she was alone.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (188.8.131.52.lcinet.net - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 02:22 pm:|
Sorry,'dined'to me meant the meal or act of eating itself.Mistake,as it is important to the time line.Of course,all accounts indicate she had "breakfast" with her father right after church that Sunday.When I had lunch at the same restaurant,we actually discussed that it was "breakfast,"her last,she had with her dad.
The name of the shopping area was Hardman(!)
Both this restaurant and the bank where Cheri worked partime is now closed.
To me, the most important fact is that CB spoke to her fellow bank worker and friend about the missing paper and that they talked for some time just prior to Cheri going to the library,as given in the post above..
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-43.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 02:45 pm:|
Yes, agreed Howard, that would fill the time.
However,if she left the house around 5pm then it is most logical to assume that she intended to stop off somewhere before going to the library.
Did she agree to meet someone? Or did she happen to bump into her killer who discovered where she was going?
A stalker, seeing her alone, could have followed her from wherever she was!
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-62.getnet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 08:18 pm:|
Good points, Lapumo. I wonder how secluded the street was then (the odds of someone
passing by and seeing Cheri Jo talking to the killer might be inversly proportional to his
willingness to talk to her out in the open). Something else, though: if the killer was
leaning inside the hood of the car for a lot of the time they were talking, he may not
have worried about anyone identifying him- especially if HIS car was parked elsewhere.
What do y'all think?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-36.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 06:01 am:|
I just do not see him hanging around the car park,period. Anybody can come along,even
offer to help.The fact that she was not seen in the library
makes me favor the earlier encounter.If this was after 9pm, she would have had to leave the library with everybody else, she can't not have been seen if she was there all the time.
I think she checked the books out shortly after 6pm and left.This is around "tea time" and perhaps there was not many around.Her friends arriving around 7;15pm again suggests that this was probably the usual "after-teatime" when people might be arriving to get some study in.
A big question still for me is whether the newspaper reports of the keys being found in the iginition was correct.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-181-251.rev.o1.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 01:49 am:|
Greetings friend.I have posted on how Robin Graham vanished(11/15/70 and like Donna Lass,she has never been found)from the well traveled Hollywood freeway(see also, Rose Tashmans case/posts,as she disappeared from the same freeway 5/18/69-her car was on the side of the road as many drove by-there were flares "neatly" placed around her car when the police finally stopped to check out the car!).In Robins case,her abductor pretended to 'assist' her as her car was parked right alongside of the very busy freeway and with CHP officers driving by at least three times!At one point, a CHP pulled up behind the Good Smaritans car as he was 'working' on Robins car-he then drove off!Yes,he failed to note the license number!
What I am getting at is, as long as someone appears to be 'helping' someone and talking to them,NO crime has been committed,no matter WHERE they might be.
Even if the RSPD did drive by or personally inquired as to Cheris situation(which did NOT transpire-and her car wasn't reported all night-no foot patrol in the darkened alley either!)all the perp had to do was be polite and indicate he was helping her start her car,etc.He,no doubt, was scanning the environment as they talked and as he pretended to "help" her ,to see if there were other people nearby,etc.This is why he HAD to get her to that dark deserted alley!
Serial killers have told how they had to abort a kill when someone came on the scene,etc.
The early bird timeline really doesn't fit at all.
The keys left in the car.Kathleen Johns told me that she was nervous because of her car trouble and having to take a ride with a stranger late at night,that she left her keys in the car.She remembered them just before they were to drive off.The stranger 'kindly' went to the car and took not only the keys,but cut her lights- she forgot to turn them off!
Talk to any AAA tow driver and they will tell you people forget to get their keys(even from very expensive cars) as they were disturbed over being stranded.Cheri may simply have forgotten them (and the cracked right front window)as they walked away.The books she checked out were there too,but she TOOK her purse.A lady always takes her purse,no matter what!This is another reason I think she wasn't abducted (and that 'she went willingly like a sheep to the slaughter', as the Confession writer wrote)she took her purse.Why would the perp allow her to take her large purse,if he was abducting her?Why would she get her purse in the process of being abducted from her VW?Makes no sense to me.
The non disturbed parallel shoe/sandle prints leading to the alley from the VW, are further evidence they simply walked side by side till they arrived at that spot where they had that fierce struggle in the alley.
Also,she was only a very few minutes away from home and her father, would,in her mind,come back and help her with the car-so she knew it wouldn't be long till she got back to her stranded auto.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-145.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 10:51 am:|
I do take your opening point Howard, however even in the example you provided you
wrote "At one point,A CHP pulled up behind the good samaritans car as he was working
on Robins car, then drove off!Yes, he failed to note the liscence number".
This is my point,surely someone would have witnessed "someone" working on a car and/or positively identified her in the library.Sixty five people and all we have is a librarian who thinks she checked out some books!
I think we have crossed wires with respect to her "abduction". If she was at the car,I think she walked away.
Something else I did not know about which is very interesting is the cracked right window.
I did ask before about how her killer would have gained access to the driving compartment( as I thought he would have had to do this to flip the hood). However I think it was Peter who said that this was not necessary as this could be done from outside with this particular model of car.
So,why the cracked window? Part of the ruse to suggest someone had tried to break in or indication of a struggle?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (184.108.40.206.lcinet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 06:42 pm:|
The point is the perp DID sabotage her car(and NO ONE saw him either!).This must have been shortly after she entered the library around 6:00 PM.If she left within the short timeline you give ,then this means she tried to start her car and,of course,it failed.Do we suppose Cheri then tried to contact her father,friend/s or did she just wait around for two or more hours?Certainly she would go back to the library to get help.Actually,she could have walked home!It was a short distance from the library.She had,with your timeline,plenty of time to get help.
How do we really tighten this up and why would we say 'did she wait around for over two hours?'Those 'awful'screams'were heard by at least two people living nearby and they told the police it was around 10:15-10:30 PM when they heard the screams-one being muffled.
And we have their account of an "old car"(the old Studebaker that was seen by witnesses on Riverside Dr.?) starting up and driving off,just a few short minutes later.Police believed the perp was searching in the dark for his watch during this gap.One can only wonder,though,in what state the killer was in after such an intense struggle.He, no doubt, was in a highly agitated state,to put it mildly!Would he be thinking or even be aware his watch was missing?Maybe this very short'gap' was just the amount of time it took him to get to his car,etc.
Anyway,the most vital thing ,without majoring in minors,is the girl WAS killed around 10:30 PM when those 'terrible screams' were clearly heard and the 'old car was heard' leaving the area.I think it's a lock here.
Then we have those two sets of normal pattern footprints leading from the VW to the alley with the abrupt stop in the alley or the place detectives described as a "freshly plowed field."
Remember,the people in the library were asked LATER(or some 14 days)if they remembered seeing someone they really weren't looking for.I remember one time when I was in a college library I noticed several people,but started studying.Later,a friend mentioned she had been studying in a certain area for a big test at the same time I was in the library.I had no recollection of seeing her,even though one could see that area.
Not even the RCC librarians were certain they remembered seeing Cheri,yet she checked three books out!One librarian 'thinks' he saw Cheri IN the library-not necessarily just checking out books.A friend saw her writing in her notebook,but didn't bother her.
No one knew how important this would become later.Most, probably, had their nose in a book or were thinking about school,or whatever,not Cheri Jo Bates.And if what Cheri told her friend Stephnie G.that evening was true(she was going to 'study')then she did study or stay longer than just going in for some books.
The one photo I got of her when I went to RCC for research years ago(see this site for picture-I sent Tom a copy) shows a Cheri who is looking down with her hands on the sides of her face.She would not stand out in this pensive position.It happens.
The problem is that the PD reports have not been studied by anyone on the Board.We would all have a better perspective and be able to make sounder judgements if we had those PD reports.We don't even know if a composite was made of the man in the library that night,or a million other issues.
We are used to having Z PD reports(in spite of this look at all the contraversy!),but had that luxury in this very tight case.
'Cracked'here means slightly open.Sorry.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:28 am:|
How long would it take for a battery to run down? If the library was still open, Cheri could have used the phone there. Was there any phone available in that area?
"Then we have the report that there were two sets of military shoe/sandle prints leaving the car and going into the death alley with no untoward signs she was forced or dragged there.The prints were parallel."
10:30 was an hour and a half after the library closed. I don't think I would have hung around that long with a stranger, especially because by that time most everyone would have been gone (others using the library). Kind of creepy. Didn't they have campus security driving around? Were there any buildings/dorms open?
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:42 am:|
Maybe he represented himself as an authoritative person such as campus security.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 08:06 am:|
Bookworm - Having had an old junker in that era, car batteries could wear down pretty
quickly. As I recall, less than twenty minutes of cranking. Or, perhaps turn the lights on
to help it run down.
I also wonder, was the watch, with its seven inch wrist band, a false clue?
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:31 am:|
I was thinking the same thing about the watch, but if the coroners approximate time of death coincided with the time on the watch, then the watch clue may have been genuine. If the glass face of the watch didn't have any prints, that would make me wonder about it being a false clue.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 07:32 am:|
Bookworm - The watch had either run down, or been set to 12:24, although it looks like 12:23 to me in Tom's picture. It is believed the time of death was around 10:30. ALA's birthday was December 18 and the later LHR murders occured on December 20. Sometimes, the act of setting a watch that you think has run down will jiggle it to run a little longer, although I don't know for how long. But an interesting thought about fingerprints on the watch face; I wonder if it was done. The photograph appears not to show the presence of fingerprint dust although it certainly could have been done later. Another thought, and I don't know enough about DNA, so I hope someone will know the answer, but could there be DNA on the inside of the leather watch band from human sweat?
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc549e9.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 01:09 pm:|
I've often wiped the prints off a watch face because they're so obvious and unsightly. Maybe CJB's killer was in the same habit...
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (17-pool1.ras10.txdal-la1.alerondial.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:31 pm:|
"could there be DNA on the inside of the leather watch band from human sweat?"
I don't believe so.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-30-129.rev.o1.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:45 pm:|
We have to start with case fact,not our opinions.
Fact:Cheri most likely entered the library around 6:00PM and certainly checked out two books.
Fact:she leaves the library and enters her car and tries to start it,but the VW failed to start.A male appears and offers to assist her.Perhaps, he speaks to her through the partially rolled down right windshield so as to create a certain degree of safe 'space' between them.Police believe he was in her car at one point.They,no doubt,talked("She was THEN very willing to talk with me").No one can say how long he tried to start her car,if,in fact,he did try.
Fact:they leave the VW and head for his car to give her a "lift"home.This had to be around 10:00PM or so.
Fact:the two sets of footprints lead from the VW to the alley and both sets are normal unremarkable stride patterns,i.e. no forced abduction here!
Fact-Cheri was attacked IN the alley and at least two people that lived close by said they heard'two terrible screams around 10:30 PM.'
Fact-the VW was sabotaged and failed to start.A male must have appeared to offer assistance.
Fact:the purported gap really doesn't matter per se,as the most important fact is she was killed at around 10:30PM,which the full autopsy verifies and confirms when the neighbors reported(but didn't even call the police!)hearing Cheri's screams and the old car starting up and leaving the area.
How many times have I read where a young woman was abducted by deception,but her friends and family said she would never take a ride with a stranger,etc.She had a weak moment and did!
The military Timex from a PX in GB,was ripped off at one band connection,not carefully placed near the body.There were partials on the watch,but nothing of any real value.The paint flecks were grayish colored house paint.
The perp wore military shiney dress shoes(the same kind KJ described for a detective and myself) and March AFB was nearby,so he may have indicated he was an off duty MP.This would create a measure of trust on Cheris part.
Cheri scratched her attacker and if he bled on the watch then it is possible to get a DNA sample,but I believe none was detected at the time.
I do tend to agree with Dr.Muskogee concerning any sweat results ,as it concerns DNA.
I will say,the longer I study the Confession from various angles and Zodiacs letters,etc.I become more convinced they have one a the same author.
|By Bucko (Bucko) (cache-dh03.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 09:00 am:|
I agree, Howard. This may have been mentioned before, but I think it possible that
after she returned and the car failed to start, the perp may have come up, checked the
engine, and explained that the car was likely "flooded" from repeated attempts
at starting, and if she waited a while to try again, it would probably start. He probably
offered to hang around to make sure it started. Waiting a period of time between attempts
at starting the car could explain the 90 minute period between the library closing and the
screams. This excuse would allow time for others in and around the library to leave the
area, and also allow the perp to "choose" the most opportune time to commit the
"Flooding" (at least that's what my Dad called it)was a pretty common thing back in those days, and a situation CJB was probably familiar with. (takes about "...two minutes..") I'm not an expert, but I believe "flooding" occured when the throttle was depressed too much from repeated attempts at starting, thus flooding the intake manifold with gas, which eventually wetted the spark plugs with gas to a point they couldn't provide the necessary spark to start the engine. Waiting a while for the gas to dissipate from the plugs could allow the car to start. "Flooding" is almost unheard of nowadays with fuel injected cars, but was common in that time period.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-127.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:03 am:|
Howard wrote;-The purported gap doesn't matter per se".Sorry buddy,I do not agree
with you.I think it could one of the most important factors in all of this.Obviously,we
are missing something here but perhaps it is something we should try to establish.
In my opinion the longer that time gap gets the more likely it becomes that Cheri actually knew her killer. Another possibility is that the missing time was spent in the company of someone she knew.
There is no Zodiac at this stage and there is no letter regardless of what we might believe.
The important thing I suggest,is actually where she was.At this stage,I find it highly unlikely that all that time was spent in the library.
If we examine the hypothetical it makes little sense in my view;- Cheri is one of the first to arrive,she checks her books out and takes he seat
in what I assume is a designated study area.As others arrive to study the natural inclnation is for them to identify a seat,while at the same time
giving "space" to others already seated.Each person arriving does the same thing as it fills up.Nobody looks to give themselves space and nobody sits at the table as space becomes limited.This is the first opportunity for several people to notice the girl sitting on her own.Not one person does. Another natural inclination is for people to respond to movement.I can understand how some would not lift there heads and I can understand how some people might not see another person in there,however nobody identified her, including friends that arrived at 7;15 and stayed until closing. We must remember also that she was looking for someone to study with so apparenlty she did not notice her friends either.The next opportunity for someone to notice would be when the library was closing.People are getting up to leave and again would naturally notice those around while in the process of exiting.Again no sighting.The last chance for someone to notice would be in the car park ,unless we are to believe that Cheri remained in the library long enough to be last out and until the other cars had gone.No sighting of her or anyone else around her car.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-184.108.40.206.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:43 pm:|
I have always thought the watch was planted by the killer as a "Red Herring".
One that wouldn't fit him, of course.
Just another part of a pre-planned attack.
Also, if those were Timex watches found at the crime scenes, shouldn't they still have been ticking?
Sorry, couldn't resist!
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 01:16 pm:|
Sick, Tom. John Cameron Swayze would be breakdancing in his grave about now.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-22.214.171.124.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:04 pm:|
Remember the Timex slogan?
"It takes a licking and keeps on ticking".
Unless it was obviously smashed, I don't see why
it should stop working in that situation.
My vote, for what it's worth,
is that it was planted by the killer.
A ploy which has worked well for him all this time!
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc758ab.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 07:49 pm:|
Maybe the watch just ran down at 12:23 or 12:24 AM because the killer hadn't bothered to wind it up earlier that day?
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-184.108.40.206.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:18 pm:|
Ed, that's probably it.
I don't think it stopped at 12:23 as result of a struggle.
The perp disables the car and brings a knife.
I think that makes a good case for pre-meditation.
Planting a false "clew" seems like a logical next step to me.
"The basics smack of KJ's abduction scenario, car sabotaged, perp offers a lift, ect".
That is until you keep going.
Bates is brutally murdered and KJ escapes? Is let go? In any case, unharmed.
The picture is graphic and very sad.
It gives me the impression that the killer was something far more evil then a jealous boyfriend.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-29-223.rev.o1.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:33 am:|
Questions 4 U my friend.
WHEN was the VW sabotaged-the approximate time?
At what TIME did Bates arrive at her car?
At what TIME do we see a two party set of footprints depart the disabled VW-7,8,9:00PM,etc.,which?We do KNOW the struggle must have begun around 10:00PM or so.Her final moments were around 10:15-30PM.
So you can tell us WHERE (and WHEN) Cheri was at any given time,let's say,from 6:30PM on and what she was DOING- if she WASN'T in the library as you believe?Your argument originates from silence.
Remember,not even the librarian that assisted Cheri in checking out those books recalled seeing her in spite of seeing photos of her and knowing the importance of his recall.
How do you know Cheri knew her killer?I spoke with and exchanged letters with one of the librarians at RCC.They or the students didn't always notice everyone they knew in the library at any given time(just like the example I gave of my experience) and this librarian was one of them!I think and do agree with a RSPD detective I met some years ago-that we have made the case into a great mystery.What he was saying,so I won't be misunderstood again(as per your last post-I said "per se" and the rest of my former posts contents were ignored too) was that it was a homicide that no one witnessed, as to seeing Cheris car,her failing to start the car and seeing the perp leaving with her to the alley,etc.;so the imagination conjurers all sorts of scenarios-even the perp leaving watches in alleys!.He felt the most logical scenario based on what he knew from the reports, was that she was in the library came out at closing which was 9:00PM and tried to start the car and the perp came up and offered to help her out.By 10:30PM she was murdered after a fierce struggle.
If she and the perp were 'friends,' why would he have to sabotage her car?Why couldn't he just say let's go and talk somewhere?WHERE did they talk-in her car with the three large books stacked on the passenger seat?Kind of uncomfortable!No need to go to all the (greasy!)trouble to sabotage the car!Did he wear military dress shoes to deceive her or did she know a military man?No one could say she did.
If the perp was the '25 year old man' in the library and he drove an old Studebaker,then do we know of any of Cheri's friends that was much older than her and that drove such a car?The police couldn't find anyone.
What proof do you give us as an alternative to any of the above?
I think the Confession is fairly factual and that the perp had tried to make conversation with Bates in the past and probably attempted to flirt with her,but got the ol' brush off.This is why I think he HAD to go to the lengths he did in sabotaging her car to FORCE her to deal with and "talk" to him and so he could kill her.
If it were a friend all of this was NOT necessary.So we both can speculate,but we can ONLY be CERTAIN as to WHEN and WHERE she was killed,hence, my post above and my "per se".I wasn't saying the 'gap' was of no importance,but COMPARED to the death of Bates,where we have concrete facts establising the time,place and means of her death ,the supposed gap only provides us with speculation galore.I was focusing on a late abduction as opposed to an early one as you propose.
I mentioned before a friend helped me with my car when it was disabled and as he worked on the wiring we talked and when he was finshed 45 minutes to an hour had passed-and we didn't have to walk to an alley and struggle there ,etc.!
Let's not make this into something more mysterious,difficult and impossible to deal with here.
Time can fly!
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-25.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 02:58 pm:|
Let me work backwards here because I think you have misunderstood where I am coming from.
You wrote;-"Let's not make this into something more mysterious,difficult and impossible to deal with".
I am sure there were many police officers and others also,who have quoted those words in support of their belief that Cheri was killed by someone she knew.
Or indeed someone who was not the Zodiac.
Now,that is not necessarily my befief,truth be know,I am undecided.Although I do believe strongly that Zodiac was connected here somewhere.
(but that's just my own personal opinion).
What I was attempting to do Howard was take one piece at a time,without any preconceived notions.
The facts are the facts,we know how she died,where she died and the time she died.
Her movements in the hours leading up to her death now become critical and the fact is,we do not know for sure.I cannot answer any of your above questions because I do not know. I don't know what time her car was sabotaged,I don't know what time she arrived at the car and I don't know what time she left the car to walk to the alley.
But neither does anyone else,except her Killer.
I don't know what you mean exactly when you say "My argument originates from silence".My argument went specifically as to why I was not inclined to believe she was in the Library for three hours.I outlined that in detail.There is a picture on this site that apparently shows the room she would have been in,had she been studying.
I find it highly unlikely that she could have been in there for a couple of hours without anyone being able to place her there.
That she may not have been in the library all that time does not mean that she was abducted earlier or was in the company of her killer.
Again, not something I particularly believe but just another scenario to throw out.
When Cheri is unable to get someone to study with, she changes her mind. Sometime between 5 and 6pm she decides to call "Bill Barnett".(which she apparently did).She wants/agrees to meet to sort things out.He's at a basketball game and leaves immediately upon reveiving the call saying "that bi*ch is GOING to the library".Surely it's reasonable to believe that he's leaving to go to see her.She tells him she is just collecting some books and will meet him not long after that.
Meanwhile she is being stalked by her killer or he's hanging around the library.He does not know how long she is going to be in there so he disables the car immediately and waits."Bill" arrives and they go somewhere to talk.The killer follows or waits.Her encounter with her killer happened as we all expect sometime later.
Now that's pure speculation but it does take other "facts" into account.The scenario can be chopped and changed around.Perhaps she met barnett first and went to the library later and decided it was too late to study. Might exlain one of the reasons the Police made much of Barnett as a suspect and why he failed a polygraph!
To repeat,I do not have the answers,I just believe there is something we are missing and that there are reasonable alternatives to her being in the library all night. There was another report of someone being seen "standing in the shadows" in that same alley as late as 9.30pm.
If that was the killer then he hadn't even approached Cheri by then.One also has to wonder why he allowed himself to be seen at all? I have often wondered if Cheri may have been unconscious
for a period of time before she was actually killed.
The time-gap I referred to Howard works back from the time she was killed to when she met her killer.
If we work on the assumption that the killer wrote the Confession letter and was truthful(as you suggest)then the killer was in the library.
Everyone else in there was cleared except the guy with the "beard", who therefore must be the killer.He waited "about two minutes" and then followed her out.While he would not have been able to dictate when she left and it could have been around 9pm, it suggests that she did leave before closing.Even if that was at closing time or just before we still have to allow for the people to clear away or the fact that they would be following shortly. In either case we have no report of anyone having trouble starting a car or any positive I.D of Cheri.
Whatever way you do the numbers there is a minimum of about one hour either with him pretending to fix the car or them speaking in a dark alley and a world of difference between the two. If he is messing about with the car, what's the guy in the Alley doing?
If the killer is they guy in the Alley,he's been watching Cheri trying to start her car for at least 25 minutes already.
Ther's something wrong with Library scenario.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 11:21 pm:|
Great posting with you as always as you question everything and this is good.
All calls from the Bates home were recovered and there was no call to B.B.Now,if someone wants to say Cheri called from a phone booth,then we have another situation.
If B.B. were playing basketball that night as urban legend has it,we would not expect him to be wearing military dress shoes as per those shoe prints that led from the VW alongside of Bates' sandle prints to the death alley.
There is no solid proof anyone was 'standing in the shadows' that night.There are almost always little stories that surface when such an event transpires.
The person I had an interview with didn't have that kind of evidence and he was in a position to know.This includes the 'story' of two males with a flashlight in the alley the A.M. of the crime.If they were looking for a watch ,as is supposed by some,then they were blind in one eye with the other having glacoma!The body was clearly evident and the watch was about ten feet away.One would naturally search from the body to a radius of a few feet away. Urban legend time.If there were two males,which I don't believe-then possibly they were trying to hot wire a stranded VW.There were greasy palm and fingerprints that were never indentified.My source told me,at the time, he regularily ran them through state computers.
Was this observation that A.M. or the night before or after the crime?Many times witnesses are confused as to exactly when they saw this or that.,etc.
The two males that tried to implicate B.B. with the Bates murder were trying to cut a deal to get off charges they had pending.They were not reputable.This kind of thing happens all the time.The Bates case was well known in that area and these guys tried to capitalize on it.The DA wouldn't buy it and neither did a Grand Jury on two different attempts by the RSPD to bring their case to trial!TWICE!Check you'll see.
It should be noted that about six months after the murder mr.Bates was wanting to offer a REWARD for info leading to the arrest and conviction of the real killer.This would be a stimulus for telling the police B.B. could be the murderer,especially if you were a low life type as were those two men were(now dead-the drugs and boozing caught up with them)!
The individual that I spoke with told me the hair/s that were found on Bates'thumb were brown,not blonde as was B.B.s hair color.The man in the library that night had "brown"hair(true, a little time at the beach and maybe a little peroxide- as was popular then,could do the job a he became a blond like Ross Peterson!-Cheri dyed her hair blonde FYI.)The DNA test clearly showed the material did NOT match B.B.s DNA.
When it was said some of Cheris "friends" were in the library ,then we can say two or more.Maybe just two.How close were they to her?She had,her close friend said ,many 'friends',but they really were acquaintances.How occupied were they in the library and did they leave at nine or earlier?Not everyone left at nine.
CB was naturally "shy," according to those her knew her best.It depends if the very few that professed to 'know' Bates sat in front of or in back of her and then we ask how close-at what DISTANCE and angle?This is important(no one saw her VW and Cheri trying to start the car-and this did happen!)
My experiences in libraries -and I spent a lot of time in them in college and at the institute(mental lol)-show me this is important as to who you NOTICE.I missed people that I knew well and/or casually, because of where we were stationed as to seating,etc.Also,if I and they, were studying with full concentration for a big test or whatever, then so much the more is this observation factor true.
There have been tests where a lot of people are in a room and then asked later to recount who was there and many would only have noticed certain people due to their line of vision or observation as given.This was a short time later,but the reenactment was carried out about two weeks later!
At least two of her friends said she told them she was going to do 'some studying' at the library.I suppose she did.
CB was very loyal to Dennis Highland(we spoke to him as he lives about an hour away from me)her boyfriend.She had just spent a weekend with he and his parents in S.F., the week before and he was all CB talked about to her closest friends.I don't believe she would want or need to speak with B.B.,a minor player in her life in the past.
Yes,I will say B.B. was mentioned in Cheris diary,but so were other males.Females that kept a diary that were later murderd mentioned this or that male that had 'bothered' them or that they had been dating,but the killer turned out to be a stranger or someone not mentioned in a diary.Good posts.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-179.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 02:47 pm:|
Howard, when you say that there were footprints leading from the VW to the murder
scene,do you mean all the way? In other words, where were the prints actually picked up? I
am unsure whether you mean,the footprints were picked up in the alley,apparently having
come from the direction of the VW or prints were found beside the car leading all the way
to the murder scene?
Would the surface of the car park not have been paved!
Bob Barnett does not have to be wearing military shoes or have been her killer in the scenario I set out.
You wrote;"I don't believe she would want or need to speak with BB,a minor player in her life, in the past" also,
"If BB were playing basketball that night as Urban legend has it" also
"there was no solid proof anyone was standing in the shadows that night" and
you have also called into question the reports of two males being seen at the scene later.
What I was working from Howard were the reports on this site.They are covered in "DNA UPDATE" linked on the Cheri Jo page in the Victims section.Clearly,they are worded to imply that they are facts and are at odds with the information you have.Perhaps Tom could come in here so we can sort out how much of this is actually fact and how much is not proven.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (220.127.116.11.lcinet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 02:34 pm:|
I will stand on my presentation(and source) as given above.Historically,it has been found that some people want to be part of an investigation and will come up with anything they can to either get their name in the papers,or just want to be of help in contributing to the case, even if their name doesn't make it in the news.
The people that comprised the two Grand Jury settings were locals that wanted this case solved,but the RSPD could NOT give them and the DA any real evidence showing their suspect was the perp.I gave you just some of the reasons for their repeated rejections on TWO different occasions.
The detectives said the two sets of prints came from near the VW to the alley and continued to almost the end of this alley, by the corner(next to the Black Student Union at the time) and then halt right at the churned up death area.
They have said there is no evidence whatsoever,that the two sets of footprints show any signs of a forced struggle.They are side by side and are of normal unbroken stride.Shoe size for him was about 8-10.
If we can accept the detailed Confession,it is fairly accurate,I believe.We can fight its contents and that's OK.I see no reason, based on what we have, to totally refute it.I think Occams razor is to be applied to this situation or it becomes endless.My opinion,I know.
As an FYI connected to all I have posted is that the VW right window was down somewhat and the right door was slightly ajar.The imagination can run wild here!
Note that there were a total of 65 -65 people in the library that night.That's a lot of folks in the library-not just the Annex.
There were only about 25 or so at the library when my friend and I missed seeing each other.The more people the less chance,generally,one will see everyone in a group setting.This is especially true when it's a library and strict quiet, mind your own business study rules apply.
Only around two people, who were not that close to Cheri were there and they were not trying to find her and never thought about her that night.
Cheris father said that Cheri never studied in the library.Not true.We have a picture of her studying, intently, in the Annex.Others have said she studied in the library.Yes,she studied at home too.
But,this was a different situation that fateful night.Her friend at the bank where CB worked partime, told police that Bates told her by phone, just before the library opened, that she had "lost" her work and since her friend could not supply the missing work she would HAVE to do it all over again!Her friend S.G. said that Cheri invited her to do 'some studying' at the library.There is no evidence that CB went to the library that night to just pickup three books and write a letter to DH ,her boyfriend;no, to the contrary-she HAD to make up that missing work AT the library.We will probably hear that the perp stole it to get her to the library...hey,lol.
I will affirm that not everything has been given to the public and some of this,I deeply regret to say, is associated with Zodiac-not as evidence he killed CB,but other possible connections.
|By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 07:17 pm:|
Howard and Lapumo: Very good debate here, with many interesting points made. I agree
the fact nobody remembered Miss Bates in the library in no way proves she was not there
the whole time. I do not know how big the library was but many college libraries are large
enough that if you are in one corner, nobody would see you. I think it unlikely she left
and returned, as that might actually INCREASE the chance of someone remembering her.
Overall, I have to admit I am leaning more and more to the idea the killer was someone she knew. We can imagine some time being taken up (trying to start her car, the killer offering to help and pretending to tinker with the engine, etc.), but that conservatively leaves 45-60 minutes unaccounted for. If she had more homework to do, I doubt she would spend it chatting up a stranger. Ditto for walking with him into the proverbial dark alley.
One fact I believe not emphasized enough is the fact that he KNEW WHICH CAR WAS HERS! This means he at least staked out the library to see who came and went or had stalked her or, knew her. For me, occam's razor cuts towards someone she knew. This of course says nothing about whether or not it was Zodiac.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-133.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 01:14 pm:|
Well perhaps,there is an opportunity here to prove that she was most likely in the
library or not,for some time.
Howard wrote:- "She HAD to make up that missing work AT the library". If this is true,then that work would have had to have been found in her possession. A couple of pages of writing would indeed show that she was making up for this missing work. There is no mention of this being in the car. Was there ever any mention of the contents of the bag she was carrying?
As to your comments Howard with regard to supposed witnesses getting involved,this is true.
However,it is the detail of the accounts posted on this site that makes me believe that is not the case in this instance.
A female student passing the Alley at 9.30pm noticed a guy she did not know,however both exchanged a Hi!.While she could not identify this person she apparently was able to give a description of the clothes he was wearing.
Years later she was called in for a Line-up, in which Bob Barnett was a part of. While she could not identify him, the clothes she had earlier described were the same as those he had worn the night of the murder.
This does not mean that Bob Barnett was her murderer but this combined with the other reports outlined here as "facts",does bring him into the equation.We have a reported phone call,him leaving the game.A report of an altercation between them only days earlier.This wasn't something from the "past".There has to be something tying him to CJB that kept the interest in him over the years.He also failed a polygraph.
Is it so outrageous to suggest that he may have met her that night,even if he was not her killer?
Mike wrote;- I agree the fact nobody remembered Miss bates in the library in no way proves that she was not there the whole time.
I agree also, it does not prove anything.But she had to walk around to select her books.She also had to go up and present them to the Librarian and speak to him/her and give her name.She had to go to a designated area to study,look around and pick out a seat and did most everybody else that
was there that night.Regardless of how intense a study group is, everybody looks around at some stage.She had to get up and leave the library along with everybody else at closing time.She had to get into her car(that wouldn't start)as everyone else was leaving and have no one remember anyone having trouble starting a car.
For me, Howards example of how two individuals could miss each other in a library makes perfect sense in and of itself.However it does not apply as a good example here because we are talking about everybody missing her.
I simply find it easier to believe that she was not in there for three hours.
Howard,I do find it more likely that the killer wrote the confession letter, but that's not to say that he was totally truthful.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 08:39 am:|
Maybe the watch ran down and then was set without rewinding as a false clue. According to Zodiac P.165, "pulled out the distributor coil and the condensor, and disconnected the middle wire of the distributor." That's three things he did to her car. Isn't that overdoing it? Would one of these have been enough?
I agree if as he states in his Confession Letter that he followed Cheri out two minutes later, that wouldn't have been enough time for the battery to wear down. Possibly he waited outside to make sure he was the one to come to her aid, perhaps to keep her at the car until everyone was gone.
Was there ever any tests done to see how much strength it would take to rip a Timex watch off someones wrist? The watch would have had to have been loose enough to get her fingers under the band
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 02:45 pm:|
Bookworm - An interesting thought about overdoing it. However, recently I had an old, open air jeep. If I wasn't going to drive it for a few days I would lock the brake pedal to the steering wheel with a lock bar, and remove the distributor wire since the hood did not lock down. I guess that stopped them for maybe a minute. Bye, bye jeep. So perhaps he did not want any quick fix muddling his plans.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-38.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 02:59 pm:|
Or perhaps Warren,he was not familiar with cars himself!
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:19 am:|
"At around 5:30 PM,Cheri called(pay phone?)her friend Donna,who worked with her
at the bank."
This may be off topic, but in 1966, phone booths began using "dial tone first" before depositing money into the payphone. The purpose was for emergencies, but I don't know how that would help, unless you could call collect or dial the operator, or if they had 911 back then. I haven't done enough research on that yet. I think AT&T has this in their history section. In 1969 Zodiac started using the phone booth.
Just looking for a possible connection between Cheri's murder and the other Z murders. He didn't call on the Faraday and Jensen murders. But Betty Lou's address was "123" the first three numbers in seqence of a rotary phone.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:51 am:|
OK, Here is some more. checking the victims link it said that Betty Lou was shot 5
times in the back and David was shot 1 time.
Now compare with the numbers and corresponding letters on the phone. 1 has no letters, but david was shot once, 2 has "abc" (bac with Betty's first initial), 3 has "def" David's first and last initial. Betty Lou Jensen was shot 5 times in the back. The number 5 on the dial are the letters "jkl" (two of Betty Lou Jensen's initials and k). K for kill.
The killer "herded" them out of the car probably because he planned to shoot Betty Lou in the back. He probably knew she would run especially after he shot David.