Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell: B Hartnell
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta011.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 06:17 am:|
Dear Abby, oops,I mean Board,
I am going to be meeting with BH in the near future, he needs my services for a case. Any ideas how I can gracefully turn the topic of conversation to Zodiac?
|By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d150-160-190.home.cgocable.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:00 am:|
Thats a tough one. How well do you know him? All I know about him is what I have read
or watched on TV and it seems that he is not that interested in talking about it. But
thats just my impression I don't know what he is like in person.
He probably doesn't care to answer the same questions regarding the attack itself, but I am curious and to what he thinks of the case today. Does he still follow it? Does he ever read this board?
One thing I'm really curious about was his interview where he said he had "no malice" against Z. If was in his position I might have a bit of malice against Z. Does he still feel this way?
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta024.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:16 am:|
Of all the suspects in the Zodiac case, which one, if any, does he think attacked him?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (208.philadelphia06rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:52 am:|
Sylvie, I'd really like to get Hartnell's written account of what happened to him.
He's a tough one to interview because of the way he speaks; his mind is continually
flitting from one association to the next. Since he's a successful lawyer I would assume
that his written style is a bit more cogent. I wonder if he'd mind giving a written
presentation, of whatever length he thinks sufficient to present the facts as he remembers
them, without prompting from others.
If he'd like to do it, I'd be willing to add his account to my revised version of "Dr. Zodiac."
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:38 am:|
Sylvie, I would just mention your connection to Mike Mageau and gauge his reaction.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:41 am:|
"If he'd like to do it, I'd be willing to add his account to my revised version of "Dr. Zodiac.""
No offense, Doug, but that's not likely to persuade Hartnell to talk openly. In fact, giving him the idea that his words will appear in print will probably clam him up for another few decades.
He's obviously very private about the incident.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-mtc-tj064.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:05 pm:|
no, I do not know him. As it so happens, his firm is a 5 minute drive. Although, I can say I did meet him once before in a legal setting about 2 years ago. Ditz that I was, I did not make the connection until recently.
very good suggestion. I think that's the way to go. Thank you.
that is a great question to ask if only I can steer the conversation that way.
|By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:47 pm:|
Here's a question, seeing that Hartnell is a lawyer. Would he represent Zodiac? Since Belli is dead and no longer an option for Z.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfa0ea.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:39 am:|
Sylvie, if he's is interested in talking, and if there's any way you can bring it up, I'd like to know how many times he was stabbed. In Times 17, p. 36, Gareth Penn claims that Z stabbed Shepard 10 times, and Hartnell 7 times, for a total of 17 times, and so this becomes one of his many "proofs" that O'Hare was Z. As near as I can tell, he was actually stabbed only 6 times, and so I'd like confirmation of that from the horse's mouth, so to speak, if at all possible. It would be great if you could. Actually, anything enlightening would be awesome.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-40-92.bos.east.verizon.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:39 pm:|
You could try something really subtle and devious, like asking him how he feels about talking about his experience. Then honor his response, including offering complete candor about your interest.
Oh: and be prepared to lose the gig.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-mtc-tb054.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:29 pm:|
sounds like Albert Ellis and REA to me. I like it.
that was very weird but I give you an A for originality.
|By Daijove (Daijove) (1cust117.tnt1.san-angelo.tx.da.uu.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 03:19 pm:|
Sylvie,could you ask Bryan if he ever listened to a cassette tape concerning an interview the state police here in Texas made? This interview was in relationship to a "Zodiac suspect" who lived in Texas. Most likely the late Paul Avery would have contacted him about this particular cassette tape. A friend of mine here in Texas as a copy of the cassette tape with the interview. The "suspect" was questioned at the criminal intelligence division at the DPS here in Texas. I was told a copy of the cassette tape was sent to paul Avery and other related officials.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc034.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 05:25 pm:|
That would be going a little far, I think. I will probably see him for all of 5 minutes or so. I may even just meet with one of his associates, a lawyer at his firm that actually did my divorce a couple of years ago. As I said before, I just did not make the connection back then. She was the one who referred me to BH.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-65.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 01:11 pm:|
An associate of mine spoke to BH some time back.He seemed to be of the opinion that
his testimony would be compromised if he commented on his experience.He is a lawyer and
sees it from this perspective.He would not do a second phone interview.BH was thinking
that if the case went to court his testimony could be contradicted by some recent
statement he made to others,etc.
I know,from experience,Slyvie can get info out of him if it is possible!Good luck S.
BH was upset with GS and his account as presented in his book Zodiac.One objection was that he would never have spoken in the manner in which GS presented and that he claims he would have never have said 'stab me first as I am too chicken to see her stabbed first.'
He does,according to Tom, show his Z'war' wounds to people at times!
Tom got a very interesting bit of info about BHs car the day of the attack.I will defer to him if he wants to share it-if he hasn't already.
If one would study all of the NPD reports they will have a ton of information.I have read each one dozens of times and have gotten different and deeper observations.
All documents should be read and studied with gaps for processing in between, to reveal 'new'perspectives.This how the brain functions as it relates to processing information.
Many discussions concerning LB would have been cleared up with the use of the details as presented in the PD reports,as imperfect as police reports are.They are not the last word and neither are they "inspired" as some seem to hold.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb043.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 01:32 pm:|
Thanks, Howard. Also, I happen to know that BH and MM are very good buddies, they have a very deep friendship. (That's why Tom's suggestion is so good). I find that fascinating. I'd like to be a fly on the wall during their conversations.
|By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d150-160-190.home.cgocable.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 01:53 pm:|
BH shows his wounds to people... wow. How visible are they today?
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbe8cce.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 10:36 pm:|
And how many are there??? Six???
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (sdn-ap-008txhousp0476.dialsprint.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 11:04 pm:|
Be sure and count them for us Sylvie
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-td022.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 09:45 am:|
I had lunch yesterday with a wise, elderly History Professor who a fervent SDA has
been attending the main church in Loma Linda for many decades.
He is a life long family friend of the Shepards and has known Bryan since he was a "young whippersnapper" in Sunday School.
We had a very interesting discussion about how the murder of Cecilia has affected the family.
Apparently, the family had some time earlier had experinced the tradgedy of Cecilia's Uncle having had his leg amputated after a construction accident at La Sierra Un. in Riverside. After the murder of Cecilia, her father, a tough, stoical Math professor, really broke down. Totally devastated.
On the other hand Bryan, he says has never let this crime bring him down in any way. He attributes this to Bryan's total Christian forgiveness of Zodiac. He tells me that Bryan is a truly kind, giving individual who donates much of his time to pro bono cases. He advised me to keep Zodiac out of the office but
he gave me Bryan's e-mail address telling me he did not think he would mind.
I may get that answer to you soon Ed.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbe876d.ipt.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 11:29 am:|
That would be awesome, Sylvie.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 11:53 am:|
Asking BH about all of the details of the car problem at the college 9/27/69, would be of interest and there would be no reason for him to refuse an answer.
Just refer to the person that saw BH at his car and her statement and that would be a good lead in.
I know from the work you did for me that you are very capable to get the needed info!Good luck.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-td012.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 09:01 am:|
I'm with Howard on that one, Sylvie; I'm also curious as to whether or not he felt his
Ghia had been tampered with.
Also, even though you hate me the way you do, please ask him his opinion on known suspects. Does he have a favorite? If so, who? If not, why?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (197.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 09:47 am:|
It would be interesting to know the actual duration of the attack, from the time he pulled the knife out until the time he walked away. Also, whether Zodiac uttered any words during the attack, or enunciated any sounds.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-18.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 01:10 am:|
Scott doesn't hate you.At LB ,in the evening,he said he wished you guys could go for a walk to discuss case facts and go waterskiing in the morning!
When one carefully reads ALL of the LB reports just about every question is answered as to who said and did what,etc.I have read them dozens of times and have gotten perspectives each time.There is ton of info there.
Tom offers the LB reports and they are well worth the price.The money goes to Z related research.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-tc041.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 09:00 am:|
Sylvie, Howard's right; I'm filled with nothing but unrequited love for all of
humankind, including you dearest Sylvie. I'm just the wrong person to piss-off, that's
all. It's not as if I wanted to see you floating breasts up in Berryessa or anything; I
just didn't take too kindly to the "bulletproof vest" remark that was unjustly
thrown out there. Remember that one?
Anyway, all kidding aside, this is my final correspondence on the matter. Let's behave like adults, okay? The reason that I posted this instead of emailing you directly is because I wanted every poster to know exactly where we stand. Do we have a deal?
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38lddk6.dialup.mindspring.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 09:52 am:|
You know, I think you've got a very important point there. It's my take on this aspect of the crime that things were going to need to happen at a certain time. If this is in fact true, several things would have to be taken into account by the Z in planning this crime:
1. An area would have to be selected where victims could be surveilled and apprehended for a fairly extended period of time without much concern for passersby. This would of course have to be a remote area. The flip side of this requirement would be it would take some luck to encounter likely victims at any particular time. LB fits this well, because although it is remote, it also attracts people. Near sundown, most people would have already gone home.
2. If a couple was spotted, they would have to be held until the planned time of the attack. The gun and clothesline would accomplish this.
3. The Lord High Executioner persona he adopted for this crime is significant to me, in that it indicates long and detailed planning of exactly how, and presumably when the attack would take place. If this attack was truly Zodiac's "becoming", then he would want everything to be perfect.
4. Finally, the time of 6:30 appears on the car door. I have no doubt this is somehow related to the mode of the attack, tying up the victims and having a conversation, waiting for a certain time. If the time of the attack was not paramount, I doubt he would have hesitated to strike. There was no tactical advantage of any kind that could have been gained by waiting. Every minute he stayed increased the risk of him getting caught.
Bryan Hartell's account has been retold in various forms. TLC's Case Reopened has the time between Z making his approach and the stabbings at 30 minutes. I don't know what Hartnell himself has estimated.
Does anyone have any ideas about what significance Z could have attached to the date and/or time of this particular attack?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (75.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 09:57 am:|
Ray, the only thing I can think of is that the Manson gang had just pulled off a murder that completely captivated the media and the national interest. I think he felt he had to trump it in order to get the limelight back.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 12:09 pm:|
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (vail-65-38-142-50.vail.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 05:09 pm:|
There's something about Bryan Hartnell that really bothers me; I don't think he was
being as forthcoming about the events at Lake Berryessa as some might think. The more I
study this particular crime, the more I think that Bryan was hiding something, or at least
knew something that he didn't tell the police about and hasn't to this day.
Anybody else get this feeling?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-175.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:42 am:|
He certainly was a lousy witness, but hiding something??? What and why?
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 07:52 am:|
Just speculating that he and Cecelia were more more involved at the time of the attack than he admitted to. She was an old girlfriend in town and I believe he had a current girlfriend (apologies to Bryan if he reads the board, just a theory).
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 08:08 am:|
Looking at an old post - the significance of December 20, 6:30, might have something to do with the movie "Psycho", where a devoted momma's boy whose interest was taxidermy stabs Janet LEIGH on a December evening. I just can't figure out which day in December.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-ad05.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:02 pm:|
Lapumo, I can't put my finger on it just yet; it's simply a gut feeling.
Look at it this way: Not all persons who are attacked by a serial killer are 'nice' people themselves. That is not to say that they deserve to be attacked; I'm not suggesting that at all. Just that, serial killers don't necessarily discriminate between 'nice' people and a*sholes. I simply get the feeling that Bryan Hartnell falls into the latter category.
If I happen upon any specifics, I'll be happy to post them here. But I'm telling you, something about Hartnell really bothers me. I'll let you know if I find anything.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-152-251-159.phil.east.verizon.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 04:53 pm:|
Considering that the police found a box of "prophylactics," partially used, among Brian's effects at the scene, I'm inclined to think that something other than a picnic was going on. That tells you more about Zodiac than it does about the victims, in my opinion.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-68-160-7-139.bos.east.verizon.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:54 pm:|
Partially used prophylactics?
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc7f8e4.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 07:53 pm:|
What did he bring an entire box? You only need one at a time...
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-71-167.phil.east.verizon.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:09 pm:|
I think it's like a pack of chewing gum--you might only use one stick at a time, but generally you take the whole pack. One or more sticks gone from the pack would indicate "partially used."
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:49 pm:|
Maybe Bryan shopped at Costco...
|By Nick (Nick) (22.214.171.124) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:27 am:|
Perhaps Bryan is a little embarrassed with his actions that day. He was totally submissive. It had to be hard relating to detectives how he was hog-tied by Cecilia. I'm sure if he could do it over again, he would have bum-rushed Z. When the perp says lay face down, it usually means your about to be executed.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 07:14 am:|
Carried one in my wallet for years (same one). Hope springs eternal. BTW, went from private practice to a more corporate environment. Found that co-workers will root through your desk. Bought box of extra large condoms, took a few out and left the box in a desk drawer. New found respect.